What if praying changes nothing and everything is predetermined?

[nojokecarmichael]

Im not religious, not even sure I believe in god for various reasons but there are other unexplainable things that even science can't explain.

I've thought about this before but people always say god answers your prayers. Yet things only happen or don't happen based on the choices we make in life now. I could have the option to do two very different things tomorrow. Think "two roads diverge...". One option could lead me to fame and the other could ruin my life down the line.

People just pray to pray. Maybe it gives you motivation or something. If God knows everything that is to happen, wouldn't that make either choice we make and it's outcome predetermined?

[OfDeath]

Well you have to take this kind of thing with a grain of salt but there was a study done on cancer patients where one group was prayed for and the control group was not. The study actually came out in favour of those who weren't prayed for! More of the people who were prayed for died!
There was some bad fallout from it too when the wife of one of the subjects from the control group sued the authors of the study for not paying for him🤣😂.
Unfortunately I can't remember the name of the study but it is listed in Richard Dawkins' "the God delusion". Unfortunately I lent that book to one of my friends so I can't find it and tell you what page. Just get the book yourself I guess.

However the predetermination thing is also self contradicting because if god predetermined everything, can god then intervene in that which was predetermined? And if so, doesn't that mean god is not perfect as he is said to be? If god was perfect then his first creation of fate shouldn't need any intervention.

[nojokecarmichael]

But what would be the reason for god to intervene and something he had already planned unless that was a part of his plan?

[OfDeath]

It would be because god made a mistake which would mean god is not perfect. So the idea of perfect god falls down right there.

[SoWhAt249]

Atheist, but if believers believe everything is pre-determined, then that's a false belief. The concept of destiny is not compatible with the teaching of man's creation. God created humans to stay in heaven, for him to rule over them however he likes, but since they got cast out, he left them with free will to impact their lives. It would be kinda dissapointing if destiny was biblical, and you just commited a homicide. It would be like God pulling a fast one on you, purposefully setting you up on a one way ticket to hell, to enjoy watching you get tortured for eternity. No, destiny is not a religious concept, because God gave people free will. How they live their lives determines if they get a ticket to heaven.

[nojokecarmichael]

But with that logic about free will and heaven, no ones going to heaven because no one is free from sin. I don't know if some religions think most Christians go regardless or what. I know jws believe only a very few selected people go to heaven. The rest live on earth or just cease to exist when they die

[SoWhAt249]

It's up to God and man's conviction whether they're going to hell. They may commit the worst sin of all, but if they truly repent, and God does have the free will to forgive them, they shall go to heaven. Doing good things or at least not roing any particularly bad, that counts as sin does not guarantee entry to heaven. I don't know if it's Biblical, but there is one Islamic story about Moses, who in his travels came upon a graveyard and he sensed something at two graves. He wen't to the nearby town to ask about them. At one of the graves he sensed joy, and a poor wood gatherer was buried there. Se sensed great suffering in the other one, and a preacher was buried there. He visited their families, and the rabbi's family said that he always prayed and taught people. good things, and said that he has a great spot in heaven for his noble work. The family of the poor man though said that he prayed when he could, but always thanked God for what he had, and for sending prophets to teach them. his will.
The conviction of the rabbi that he was going to heaven, assuming he knew God's will, earn3d him a place in hell, being tortured, while the grateness of the poor man, who left everything in God's hands, earned him a place in heaven.

[Tamera952]

What if:
prayer changes nothing AND nothing is predetermined?

[OfDeath]

This is the reality of it.

[In_Trance]

I take it a step further than that. You (we) have no choice; everything is predetermined. You are exactly where you are meant to be at all times. There is nothing that will ruin your life; it's happening exactly the way it's suppose to.
Most people can't contemplate a concept like this. A plan with absolutely nothing to guide them; so they create the idea of a supreme being. Someone who will save them and take then to the promised land when it's all over. It's a scary thing to think that there is no heaven or hell. Where do we go? Nobody knows.
The misconception is that religion has something to do with spirituality. It doesn't.

Welcome to existentialism

[nojokecarmichael]

"There is nothing that will ruin your life" because everything is predetermined, right?

But a lot of people's lives are ruined or will be ruined even with predetermination. Maybe that's just a part of it, since this is an imperfect world

[In_Trance]

That would be correct. Who's to say what will ruin your life? It may seem that way at the time, but it could turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to you. That said; there is no such thing as right and wrong or good and bad except for perceived values. Perception in these cases is usually very short sighted

[ecfresh]

Jesus prayed. If everything was predetermined then why would Jesus have any need to pray. Not only did He pray but He taught everyone else how to pray. Prayer must be very important based on these two facts alone.

[nojokecarmichael]

I had to look up some prayers jesus prayed to god before replying and I didn't find much. Most of his prayers were for protection of his church or something like having gods will.

None of it saved him in the end. God created him to complete a task or tasks and upon that completion knew he'd be killed. God is all knowing right? He sees and hears everything, he's know what we have, are and will do and say. He can change it all but doesn't. Even with prayer. He knows when you'll pray to him and even then he could have it in his mind to not help you or have already determined that he would so that what he knows will happen will happen still.

[nojokecarmichael]

It's almost as if it's pointless and the only purpose prayer serves is to praise God and to turn to him when 'you' are desperate or happy like he wants

[ecfresh]

Isn’t that ironic? God is all knowing, all powerful, can do anything. Yet He still needs and desires our praise? God is love

[dreamstar72]

If it changes nothing it’s Gods will, if it changes something it’s by the grace of God. So you figure