The Ontological Argument Debunked?

[angiebangie]

I'd like to preface this by stating that I'm not an atheist, but this particular argument for proving God's existence had me immediately skeptical. If you're in the mood for something more philosophical on G@G, stick around :)

I couldn't exactly put into words what I felt in my gut was 'off' about this, but I found this man on youtube who must have at least a 1,000 point IQ who came up with a video debunking the argument, and I agree with him on most points. Although he didn't directly break down the logistics in the first video, they can be applied to the first video for the most part.

What are your thoughts? I'm going to steal one from @Secret660 (forgive me, I know that's not her username) and say PLEASE be detailed in your answers! :)

[torgor67]

Ah I actually learnt about this a week ago from a channel called inspiring philosophy called defending ontological or something like that. But as for my thoughts on it I think its a little silly which is coming from a person who like philosophy and believes in God. I mean one common argument is that since this universe is organised in a certain structural way then that must be a sign of God which I sort of agree with but that can be debunked through all the random occurrences that can happen in life. Also the fact that they say because it exists in mind then it must exist in reality is also a little silly as that's like saying I can imagine contradiction which exists but it can't because then that would be a contradiction such as arguments like a person can create a stone too heavy to lift which while I don't agree applies to God because its says in the bible God doesn't contradict himself. In case your lost basically something like a married bachelor can't exist because even if we comprehend it a married bachelor cannot exist because it defeats the purpose of a bachelor so saying that just because we can comprehend doesn't mean its true. So while I believe in God I don't believe in that argument at all personally.

[angiebangie]

Thanks for your thoughts! (Can I ask an off the topic question? How on earth do you have an 86% MHO!!)

[torgor67]

Oh I just try and give insightful opinions from both perspectives from an argument and then conclude with my final thoughts. Also I only answer questions what I feel I want to and not out of necessity personally. But yeah I didn't notice till you bought it up! XD

[angiebangie]

You're one of my new favorite people lol

[888theGreat]

mine is low because I make jokes with my answers and you never give me mho's because you hate me.

[angiebangie]

@888theGreat Lol that's not it! I haven't really noticed you ever. But for sure I don't mean to hold back MHO from anyone. (I do like giving them to @Jjpayne though )

[Skadouchebag]

asking if God can create a stone too heavy for God to lift is like asking whether God can create a square circle.

[Jjpayne]

In terms of debates like this. I stick to this quote.

"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible."Thomas Aquinas

[Dargil]

My affirmation that there is a Creator is simply that there is a Created.
And I also believe there is a Creator on Faith.

[sensible27]

Yeah, no. You are fighting them with a language they do not use, logic.

[adollarandadream]

well, i never argued for the ontological argument to begin with. both videos were arguing over super vague concepts. i’m not religious at all, but i do believe in a creator.

[Cryptic-Game]

The contingency argument I think is the best. That all things except the first cause has an explanation to its cause. We as humans are contingent beings, meaning we didn't have to exist. God is a necessity. Him not existing is impossible.

[WadeDanielSmith2]

By definition, God is the greatest being that actually exists in reality, therefore there must be a God.

[Gravit1]

I don't follow that reasoning so much, but if we thought at the same level God did, we would be God and how could you disprove yourself. We deal a lot in the natural, but there is an order beyond it. We obviously have faith in the supernatural, so apparent randomness in the natural doesn't amount to anything. Also, we aren't even close to the level of God so how could one say anything is truly random.

[sensible27]

Except the god you describe in not the one that might exist then I guess...

[Liam_Hayden]

You use a definition that is not quite the same as the normal. There is no logical requirement, for example, that the greatest being in existence be infinite. That being could be contingent.

[Liam_Hayden]

There is logically no way to prove or disprove the existence of God. In order to do either would require infinite knowledge. Belief or unbelief both require faith.

[WadeDanielSmith2]

Wrong. The Cosmological argument absolutely is rock solid, and proves there absolutely is an Almighty Omniscient Creator God.

You do NOT need physical evidence for a logical argument to be sound. In Mathematics and Geometry courses in High School and College, you prove all sorts of concepts with pure logic in the absence of physical evidence. It is an atheistic lie that claims you need to physically see God to prove God's existence. God does not have a physical body, because God is not a physical being. God created everything outside HER self, including physics, time, and space and God even created Logic and other forms of reason.

Cosmological Argument:

The Universe is not self eternal (Hubble et al) therefore the Universe began to exist.
Everything with a begining needs a cause.
The Frist Cause is uncaused.
Therefore the First Cause is self-eternal.
The First Cause must be entirely Self-Motivated.
The only thing that can be entirely Self Motivated is a Free Moral Agent, an actual Almighty Mind.

Therefore an Almighty, Self-Eternal, Unchanging Creator God actually exists, and that God is literally "The Greatest Conceivable Being that can possibly exist in any reality.".

Therefore the Ontological Argument agrees with the Cosmological Argument. The True Creator is in fact the Greatest conceivable Being, and is therefore infinite in every conceivable attribute that can be infintie, and otherwise maximized in every conceivable attribute that can be maximized but not infinite. That's what "Almighty" means.

[WadeDanielSmith2]

God told me there are an infinite number of dimensions in reality, but humans are not smart enough to prove that scientifically. God told me some alieni species in the Universe ARE smart enough to prove that scientifically.

The Greatest Conceivable Being creates the Greatest conceivable Universe/Multiverse, and therefore there are an infinite number of dimensions in both the Universe and the Multiverse God actually created.

So this is the Greatest conceivable Universe that can exist in this Multiverse, in fact it's presently the ONLY Universe in this multiverse and this is God's first Universe and first Multiverse to create, but God said SHE will create more multiverses and universes in the future.

Anyway, this is the Greatest Conceivable Universe that can exist in the same Multiverse, and it is the Greatest Conceivable Multiverse that can exist with the same laws and constants, because God does not create anything half-assed. God creates everything PERFECT AND MAXIMIZED.

Again I don't know how to prove that using ONLY the "scientific method" but philosophically/metaphysically I think I've offered the best argument God has available to humans, because God literally just told me this.

So String Theory and Eternal Inflation are both wrong, and they both gravely under-estimate the power of God.

[WadeDanielSmith2]

By the way, human beings are created with other valid forms of reason besides just Logic, it's just "scientists" reject that, and you aren't taught to reason in those ways in school, mostly.

However, positive emotions are a valid form of reason. If Logic was all that existed then there would be no true love and there would be no righteous anger of righteous people against evil and so forth.

And we have other valid forms of reason that humans haven't learned ot use at all, which God has IMPLIED to me that humans will learn to use over the next milion years. God has told me humans will exist in modern form for a little more than a million more years, but our DNA is designed to die after that, and then God will create an all-new sentient species on the EArth, which will be an all-new type of animal, not a mammal, bird, or reptile or anything like that. In my afterlife, I'd like to visit Earth at that time to see what new sentient life form God creates here. God said I would like what SHE creates here after humans... interesting.

[goaded]

There is either an unseen, undetectable intelligence behind everything in the universe, and some people on one planet of one solar system in one galaxy know all about it, or... people lied to get free food, status or power.

I don't think the level of faith required for disbelief is anything like the level needed for belief, just look at human nature!

[Liam_Hayden]

@WadeDanielSmith2 No, you are wrong. You cannot KNOW whether a being is God or simply a being that is seemingly infinitely more powerful than you. You, a finite being, cannot fully comprehend the infinite. since you cannot do so, you cannot KNOW. You can believe or be convinced, but tat is not the same thing.