Christian values are moral for the most part. At least the popular interpretation of them in the 21st Century. But Christians for the majority of Christianities existence supported slavery and the death penalty for so called witches, adulterers, and supposed blasphemers through the support of Bible passages. And in reality if you read through enough of the Bible you will find a lot of verses supporting slavery, homicide, infanticide, genocide, physical mutilation, punishment of rape victims, allowing rape itself, polygamy, and surprisingly even abortion. Most Christians either don't realize that or ignore it. Even Jesus himself allowed slavery and never preached against polygamy. I believe that the universe was created and that there is definitely a higher power, but I have found that evidence for any specific gods from particular religions extremely slim based on what we know about our world. I'm a Deist and I sometimes consider myself a Christian Deist just because Christianity today is in general mostly positive for the world and I don't see any valid replacement that will satisfy human needs for comfort, purpose, and eternal meaning and hope. Atheism and Deism offer neither.
the amount of hate in the world due to religion is simply staggering.
two simple examples of where Christianity fails.
Christian men who go to church, go to the pub come home and beat their wives. Well the Bible is incredibly sexists letting women know their place.
If a gay or transexual posted on this thread it would likely be the most devout Christians (or Muslims) that abused them the most.
but mainly, you don’t need a couple testaments to actually live a decent good life, simply being nice to everyone else.
In the 21st century why does a person need some words written ages ago, simply to be nice to say a gay homeless person, or helping a transexual down on their luck.
I am sure every Christian posting here would give shelter and substance to a transexual on a stormy night, letting them shelter under their roof.
If a Christian person does bad things, that shouldn't reflect poorly on their religion's prescriptions, necessarily. You say some Christian people treat gay people poorly, but why is this an indictment of Christianity, where being gay isn't a sin, and even if it were, we are told everyone is a sinner, and to love people regardless of their sin?
Homsexuals? I love them and would throw my life down for them because that is what the Bible calls me to do as a Christian.
Define accepted. Being homosexual isn't a sin. Trans people? Again, define accepted. I don't promote bullying of any kind, but trans want me to change how I use the English language so that my pronouns represent a reality that they wish they inhabited. My language is supposed to convey meaning that is useful. Pronouns won't convey useful information if that is what they come to represent. We shouldn't diminish the importance of our language to make a small portion of the population happy.
No, because gay marriage cannot transpire. God won't bless the marriage, and the gay couple will not become one flesh as outlined in the Bible. Marriage was not a pure romantic exchange like it is today. Marriage used to be more about child rearing, which is something that can only be done by males and females, because male-male or female-female couples cannot create children.
Gay people can get "married" by the state and I have nothing against it, by the way. The state's version of marriage isn't something that I would recognize as marriage, however.
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To me Biblical Values are moral but the values of people who claim to be following the bible is not always moral. I know a “Christian,” guy who harassed me for 8 hours because I said I did not want Trump to be president because Trump made racist comments about Hispanics and Africans and Xenophobic comments about Muslims and Poor countries like Haiti. I know other people who oppose lockdowns that delay the spread of CoVid because they think it’s Christian to risk your life to show up at church and I know Christians who say bad things about homeless people because they believe the bible says people should have jobs and I know Christians who make fun of mentally ill people because they believe mental illness is punishment from God.
Doesn’t sound like those Christians have a genuine closeness with God. Maybe religiousness but a close relationship with God makes Christians into more loving and even wiser individuals. It was unwise of that Christian guy to harass you for your views on Trump. As for the Christians who believe that going to church takes precedence to the law, I don’t blame them. The new testament teaches to obey authorities because they are instituted by God to keep people from evil, but at the same time, we see the apostles violating authority by continuing to preach. Church being open is kinda similar to that. It’s not right for the homeless people to be belittled since the bible teaches that we should care for the poor and they count as the poor! They sound more religious than united with God. Maybe they’re Christian by name as you may call it.
I guess you're assuming humans have some kind of innate, objective, universal moral compass to judge Christian values or any other ethical systems with. It doesn't work like that as far as I know. And no, empathy is not enough.
Studying the ethical system/philosophy to its most basic permises and questioning its validity as well as understanding its function is the proper way to dicsuss those values.
I'm not assuming their is an objective morality... according to your subjective morality, do you think that Christianity is, for the most part, a moral religion?
I think Christian values, and I mean the whole system which starts with a firm belief in one God (as the creator), functioned rather well and succeeded in uniting tribes and organizing them into greater and decently successful societies. Even the enlightenment values that we're still using today are based on Christian values. (And keep in mind I'm not assuming Christianity is not diverse in terms of interpretations. If you change the concept of one God from caring and personal to careless and impersonal you can have a new system. But we're not talking about those.)
Now, are the permises even valid? Does one God even exist? That's another topic. When it comes to morality I prefer to prioritize function over validity/truth.
And are there rules that are considered outdated and even immoral in today's societies? Yes. People change, societies change, and systems can (usually do) evolve.
@twinrova I see it as a necessary system, which has at least partly stood the test of time. I'd prefer it if everyone studied philosophy and could at least think properly about and perhaps discuss the values he/she internalized as a child (and no, I don't think there's a way to skip the internalization part), but I don't think that's going to happen. Most people want a convenient way to get from A to Z without much thought, and they need to be equipped with the right tools to think and judge quickly and remain functional in their society. I think Christianity provides a strong foundation for, at least, the majority of people.
Western societies have also been able to reinterpret Christian ethics with inquiry, unlike some other major religions. So it still works well. You can't really get rid of it without replacing it, and reinterpreting parts of it doesn't mean you get rid of it.
I agree. I wish people would be more concerned with the function and benefits of certain ideas and belief systems for society, mental health, and overall morality rather than if something is historically true or whether everything relating to the idea is somehow perfect. From what I have seen Christianity is almost certainly a human invention, but it's the most practical religious concept and the most beneficial of almost any idea ever conceived. According to Christianity everyone is equal under God and everyone is able to receive salvation and friendship with God if they believe, which is why it's the biggest religion ever. And Jesus had some of the best moral teachings relating to human behavior in history (others were Buddha, Confucius, and several Greek philosophers but they still didn't offer what Jesus did). Christianity is religion perfected, it took the best of Jewish ideas and combined that with the best of Greek thought and concepts from neighboring religions. Without it we wouldn't recognize our world today and it's possible a much more sinister idea could've taken over if it never existed. Christianity is the only religion that tackles concepts and struggles relating to the human condition in a comprehensive and concise fashion while connecting emotionally to the individual. It gives people a sense of love, comfort, purpose, certainty, and eternal hope in a way nothing else does. I believe there's evidence of a created universe and a higher power, although I find evidence of a specific deity extremely low. I'm a deist as of now.
I believe the values of JESUS are moral, the values in the old testament are the exact opposite of moral (so christians are half and half and you can tell the moral ones based upon whether they are more "New testament" or "old testament" types i. e. are they compassionate and try not to cast judgment harshly on others or do they cast judgment at every opportunity and find every one wanting.).
I'm agnostic (I don't believe in god nor do I disbelieve in god. I simply do not know (agnostic literally translates to without knowledge (specifically knowledge of a divine nature)) nor can I even wrap my mind around the concept (I don't think any one can honestly).
It doesn't matter what denomination you are we are all flawed and no matter what denomination you are first of all you have to have morals values and ethics as a human being not is a denomination or a religion only as a human being do people try to hide behind their religion and those are the fake people you do everything for show Christians are just like any other religion no matter what religion it is the people who follow is a part of whatever you believe they believe it there's nobody perfect everybody has a flaw I have many of them nobody is better than anybody else no matter what religion you follow because no matter what religion you were in it's the same principles
This is totally dependent on what someone calls “Christian values”. If you’re referencing something that came directly from the teachings of Jesus, then definitely moral. But if it’s just a modern-day sentiment that someone has chosen to associate with religion that’s got nothing to do with it (ex., people who will say Christians can’t believe in climate change), that may or may not be moral, depending on he belief.
I was born Muslim, I've read from the bible, I've read from the secret doctrine, I tried to educate myself as much as I can about religions. For the most part I think Christian values align with our humanist values, I also think churches should be rewarded from progressives for their reforms to encourage other religions. But I think if we want what is moral to be exclusive to a group of people, this will dehumanize the rest.. By the way, all Abrahamic religions are still a minority in this world of 8 billions
Yes, I think for the most part Christian values are moral. I am Jewish. I have always considered Christianity to be a sect of Judaism since they share the same historical, cultural and religious roots, Jesus was Jewish and they also share belief in the Old Testament of the Bible. Except for the one obviously critical difference of believing that Jesus was the Messiah (Judaism believes that the Messiah is still to come) the moral code is pretty similar although generally Judaism is probably more forgiving and less rigid and dogmatic.
Yes for the most parts. Take the 10 commandments for example. That's very basic and still relevant today and people always have that unspoken agreement even if they're not Christians or Jewish. It's just time to time, people keep rewriting the bible and God's words that some of it turns controversial. God never said crucify all those who don't believe in him. It's the "Holy" Romans who made that up. God never said execute those who performs "witchcrafts" it's those villagers in Salem who made that up. What Jesus wants is peace and that's that.
Christianity was taken from the Law of Moses (Plus Confuscious strangely) and then perverted to make a man-god out of a false prophet.
The "Good" things in Christianity are all derivable from the Law of Moses (Torah) or from Confuscious. Jesus and the Disciples simply used goodness as a bait to get you to believe the lie: "Jesus is God in the Flesh, etc".
"God is not a man... neither the Son of Man..." (Numbers 23:19)
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You can find immoral people in the majority in all religions and out of religions too. Not sure what exactly are you trying to suggest.
People who follow the teachings of Prophet Jesus, if they are immoral, it is because of their own issues. Not because Prophet Jesus's teachings were immoral.
Are you asking about the values of Christ himself, or of those who wish to follow him? Because if the latter, then it's only fair to realize: everyone will stumble at some point. No one will ever do it perfectly. If you place your faith in humanity, rather than the Author of humanity, you will set yourself up for disappointment. Every time.
Personally I don't like the heaven and hell spiel, makes for an external motivator that is just based on personal gain. It really depends in what order you interpret Christian values but overall it has left good and bad throughout the world during its existence.
Western morality is entirely derived from Christian values. Even people who want nothing to do with God would still say; as a point of being kind that you should do unto others as you'd have them to do you, which is the golden rule found in the Bible. Thankfulness is Christian, and everyone's equal value as human beings before God which isn't only a norm but law.
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You could fill a library with books to answer that question.
A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. (CS Lewis, Mere Christianity)
I don't literally believe in it, but yes it does. As a literary/historical piece I appreciate it, and it does contain food for thought. I like the harsh, blunt teachings found in the old testament in particular. Do I literally believe in any mythology? No, but I think people were stronger back then, and it's something that I reflect on, as those stories are meant to teach life lessons and wisdom.
For the sake of brevity I am simplifying what are complicated theological matters. If elaboration is required, no problem.
I don't believe God knows everything. In the Bible God is caught by surprise on a few occasions. You can look to the Genesis story you brought up to find examples, actually; Adam and Eve ended up hiding from him, and he couldn't find them. He also didn't realize they had eaten the forbidden fruit until evidence was discovered.
Your point on the slaughter of the Canaanites illustrates one of the most important theological changes God makes in the new testament. In short, Christian morality comes from the new covenant (testament) with God. Jesus explains to us that in the past, God would punish humans for committing sin, but that God sent him to bring an end to that mode of judgement. Jesus teaches not to condemn, but to forgive and to love even your enemies. The reasoning for this is that people were recognized to be incapable of refraining from sin in perpetuity. This mode of judgement is seen in the Bible when Jesus is asked to permit the stoning of an adulteress (which was protocol in the law of Moses); Jesus declined and forgave the woman instead of condemning her, and he didn't condemn anyone during his time on Earth. The reason I lay out this theology is to show you that Christians do not believe people should be murdered for their sins as they were in the slaughter of the Canaanites that you make reference to.
Also, the Bible suggests that children and babies receive salvation, so the innocents who died are in a better place than you and I. If you still think their deaths were immoral I'd like to hear some reasoning as to why.
"The Bible also makes clear that there are no limits to God’s knowledge. His “understanding is inscrutable (unsearchable)” and “infinite” (Isaiah 40:28; Psalm 148:5). The psalmist wrote of God’s infinite knowledge of each individual man and woman who has ever lived, “Such knowledge is too high for me; it is too high, I cannot attain it” (Psalm 139:6). Speaking to His disciples of God’s intimate knowledge of their lives, Jesus said, “Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Luke 12:7). God knows everything about our lives—and cares!"
God created everything. God knows everything. So God created Adam and eve, put them in the garden of Eden with the tree and the apple he created and the snake, he knew the snake was there and he knew what the snake would do. God made it a rule that they cannot eat the apple, he created the rule of what happens when you disobey him. Adam and Eve don't know right from wrong, after all they're "new borns" it doesn't take a genius to work out that they would eat the apple when tempted. So he set this all up he knew what would happen, he turned his back and if course that's what happened. Then he blames Adam and Eve and not only condemns them he condemns all of their decendents for all of eternity.
Also you cannot say that Christians morality comes from the new testament because people still follow and shame people for things that were in the old testament. when talking about homosexuality people refer to the old testament for passages. They use the whole "oh but that was the old testament" only when it suits their narrative.
1. None of this suggests that God is all knowing. Having unfathomable knowledge doesn't imply that it is all-encompassing. Having infinite knowledge does not imply one knows everything either; if God had knowledge of the order of every number in pie but knew nothing else, he would have infinite knowledge. Pie has no end, so if God had this aforementioned knowledge you could describe his knowledge as infinite without meaning to say that it is all-encompassing. The other verses don't need to be addressed because they don't even come close, but if you really think they mean God is omniscient still, I will address them.
2. I think that's unfair. Jesus made a new covenant with Christians and that is what we are called to abide by. If someone who claims to be a Christian doesn't do or understand that, that isn't the fault of the rules they are called to follow; it is the fault of the Christian misrepresenting them. Am I wrong about that? Christians still take some things from the Old Testament but that gets complicated. What is important to know is that Jesus revised some things, and forgiveness over condemnation is one of those things.
And by the way, in favour of the Bible's morality, consider that Jesus said that the ultimate commandment is to love God and your neighbor with all your heart, soul, and might. He said that because all of the laws the New Testament calls us to conform to are things we will will fulfill naturally if we have this love in our hearts. If that command is at the center of Christian morality, it seems weird to say that it is an immoral religion. It seems you're convinced that it, however, and that's a shame.
Oh, and to touch on the first point, the reason again, that we know these verses don't imply God is all knowing, is because there are many instances in the Bible where God shows us he doesn't know certain things. More examples can be adduced.
Obviously I don't believe in god and haven't in a really long time. It's makes me laugh when people try to logically explain an illogical concept.
But here are a few examples of shitty things in the new testaments, god still punishes it seems.
Herod was killed by an angel for dishonoring God, and was subsequently eaten by worms (Acts 12:23)
Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead because they lied to the Holy Spirit (Acts 5)
The apostle Paul was stoned, shipwrecked, whipped, and beaten numerous times (1 Corinthians 11:24–26).
Believers were beaten, flogged, tortured, and sawed in half. (Hebrews 11:37)
Hmm but Jesus teaches to forgive? But... He didn't come to bring peace... "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34
"But as for those enemies of mine who did not want me for their king, bring them here and slaughter them in my presence." Luke 19:27
Doesn't seems very lovey dovey of thy enemy up in here
Dude... if you aren't going to act in good faith, you can't expect me to waste my time putting all of this stuff into context for you. You turn to Google, take some Biblical tidbit that sounds immoral on its face, and then use it to bludgeon my religion over and over again. You obviously did not investigate any of these verses, because they are not indications that anything I've said is false. Ex. Paul was beaten? Yes, he was beaten by people who persecute Christians... But like, if you even read the first paragraph of the passage this verse comes from you would have known that.
It looks like you are treating this conversation more like a vanity contest than an actual investigation into whether you're right or not. You claim to be laughing at me because you think I've taken the side of an untenable argument, and yet every attack on my religion that you've based on your brief excursions into Google have been refuted... I think you should be laughing in my face for my stupidity, but not because of my view of Christian morality; you should be laughing in my face because I was silly enough to think you were approaching this conversation with at least a modicum of integrity.
I'm simply providing evidence that the new testaments say things just as bad as the old. You can believe in whatever you want to believe, I don't care but you cannot in good faith say that god, Christianity, Jesus even is 100% good. I will stand up for your religious freedom a million times over but I will not agree with Christianity along with other religions being entirely morally good.
And no I wouldn't even say they are mostly good, at least not most of the Christians I have met. The only christians I have met who I would consider to be morally good people, and follow good life morals are those who barely follow the bible, those who question what it says and just choose to believe in a higher power because it makes them feel better mentally to have a purpose.
@russianspy69240 You’re twisting scripture and taking it out of context. A closer look at the Old Testament shows that men were punished for violating women.
What is moral, this is a question of controversy. I think 'Christian' values in the religious sense are not moral, however being a 'Christian' in A non traditional sense is more along the lines of awaking to our true nature. Um-learning the 'programming' that tells us what is and what is not. Which is what Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Rumi, and (insert awakened spiritual human) are really showing/teching humanity. Hope that this made sense to you.
Someone like that is just acting in bad faith; they're a troll. Don't even engage with them in my opinion, my friend. Afterall, we are told not to waste pearls on the swines, right? God bless you :)
Well yeah I find ‘em to be moral just well yeah the stereotypical Republican Christian I find iffy because lots of what they say aren’t very Christ like but same with Democrats if not more so
I’m Muslim and I like all religions and believe in them. In reality a good Christian actually is Muslim. Muslim is just an Arabic word meaning somebody who believes in god and prophets like jesus whose name in Arabic is eesa.
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There are morals in some Christian values but the key is: all of them aren’t moral. If Christianity were true it’d all be moral. Some shit is really immoral.
True Christians. Ya know, treat people, how you'd want to be treated. That Christianity, not this bullshit where you hate people, just for not being christian
Well, everyone has a different idea on what is morally right or wrong. Mirralky right fir a hoojer is to sleep with guys for money; morally right to a nun is abstaining.
So which moral is right? Is there a moral? Or do we use that term to reinforce the decisions we make? To make us feel like good people no matter what we do?
Morality is one's sense of right and wrong. That can differ between people, but just because it differs between people doesn't mean it is non-existent.
I don't disagree with you but that said we can not ask questions like you did. You could ask 10 different people and get 10 different answers all of which could be right or wrong. Which means the moral does not exist. At best it's a social construct. And let's be honest it's a shitty one at that
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