It’s pretty much the same for all Celtic festivals, they all by chance land on Christian festivals.
Globally most festivals are tied to the seasons, the moon, sun, longest day, shortest day, when you start sowing crops, when the harvest is, when you need to kill animals that will not make it through the winter.
A lot of the festivals are tied either due to romans or the early Celtic church.
The Celtic church was different to the Church in Rome and there was friction.
http://www.cushnieent.force9.co.uk/CelticEra/Nature/nature_differences.htm
https://www.grin.com/document/70403
Off topic is that within the Celtic church women played a far more significant role, with early Celtic churches having Abbotess / abbess.
Also common sense teaching, community life, that people are good from birth and that god is in everything.
https://www.northumbriacommunity.org/articles/celtic-spirituality-a-beginners-guide/
Magnus Magnussen put it well when he observed that Roman Clergy said ‘Do as I say and expected to be obeyed, the Celtic clergy said ‘Do as I do’ and hoped to be followed.’ That’s why Soulfriends were encouraged – Anam chara.
anyhow, that was my little opening to what Celtic Christianity is.
it links up as when the early church was pushing into areas, they often just accepted local customs and matched Christian ones to them.
if everyone is gathered for the harvest festival, then let’s make it a Christian festival. The Celtic church was very much a community church and firmly in touch with nature and the seasons.
Well... sort of. Depending on which historians you want to believe, you'll find arguments for Jesus being born in the spring OR the fall, but sure as shit not at the end of December! LOL My personal belief is in the fall, but back to the question.
The birth of Christ is not and was not a pagan ritual, it was simply the birth of the Savior to those who believed it. As to the actual date, that's up in the air, but whatever that date was, the Christian faithful celebrated Christ's birth. It is commonly believed that Pope Julius I moved the date from around Easter time to coincide with the pagan festival of Saturnalia, which took place on Dec. 25th. Loosely speaking, one might guess the thinking was that by mixing the pagan celebration of the solstice with the believers in Christianity, you might end up with more Christians!
So yes --- it's odd to celebrate the birth of Christ on a day when NOBODY believes he could have been born. I think if you ask the Christian community as a whole, they would say "we don't care about the pagan stuff it coincided with, or still does - it's still a celebration of Christ's birth".
Let's start with something smaller, like getting rid of daylight savings time altogether in every state in the USA !!
I believe Christmas is meant for us to enjoy and celebrate, it’s not a religious ritual that God will judge us for. God doesn’t save or damn you based on your rituals. God only cares that you treat people with kindness and work an honest job or work hard at your home making role. My elementary school teacher said funerals are meant for the living family members and not the person who died. I view Christmas the same way - it’s used for us to enjoy happiness. It’s not a religious burden that determines your status in God’s kingdom.
I don't know the Bible was pretty clear about honoring and worshiping pagan deities. God found it to be an abomination
I interpret the pagan deities as the worship of things like money or beauty or sex - it’s allegory to me
I guess that sums up Christianity.. only accepting the parts they want to
🤦♂️There's nothing wrong with decorating with a tree. Not all Christians celebrate Christmas with a big emphasis on gifts and trees and Santa. I was taught the actual meaning of Christmas--Jesus' birth--and afterwards, I was taught that a little decorating is just fine as long as we don't worship the tree and crap like that.
When I was a kid my Christian parents didn’t celebrate Christmas because of its pagan origins.
Opinion
64Opinion
1. There is no pagan holiday on dec 25. So factually it doesn't make sense. Begs the question what pagan holiday is on that day?
2. Even if there was, you're celebrating whatever holiday you're celebrating. If your birthday is on chinese new year... well don't you realize you're not celebrating your birthday but the chinese calendar? Smh how stupid. The logic of this post doesn't even make sense. Like two things can't be on the same day. Ofc they can. Oh quick let's change Christmas because some other religion also claims that day? Why would christians care what non christians do?
3. Lastly there are old hebrew customs about 9 months from your death, time in the womb etc in how they would often celebrate public figures. I dont know all the details but on the jewish calendar the date of Jesus death and Christmas is 9 months apart. Im also aware Josephus a famous and reliable historian from back then had written about this in general (not specifically Christmas) but this was something done in some circumstances. Thats enough info to satisfy my curiosity feel free to continue your research from here.
Last I checked Christmas trees, holly, Yule logs and mistletoe have nothing to do with Christ
Not every Christian does those things. Those that do Christians know its not like a requirement or anything just as cake has nothing to do with a birthday nor beer and grilling out has anything to do with 4th of July. Are birthdays a celebration of baking and 4th of July hot dog day? I mean how ridiculous.
And as point two above, one religion doesn't have a monopoly on days, nor items. So if trees holly and logs and mistletoe are all pagan, what forest item is allowed still for Christians? Smh. Do we have to use acorns and rocks to not be pagans or hindus or anything else? Who even knows.
The fact is that those were Germanic and Roman traditions that the Christians stole to try and make Christianity more palatable for pagans which is funny because the Bible states that god finds pagan holidays as an abomination.
But what makes it pagan? Pagans are not a modern religion. 99% of people dont know pagans ALSO had some of these things, this doesn't make any celebration with a tree for all time a pagan holiday.
Its like saying all volkswagan drivers are nazis. The fact they dont know volkswagon is the official car of the nazis is irrelevant. The fact that they dont believe in the superior german master race is irrelevant. They are celebrating nazi ideals! Hmm doesn't sound so logical now does it?
Because (most) people who drive Volkswagens don’t incorporate Nazi rituals into their life’s, mean while decorating a Christmas tree is a Pagan ritual… all these christans claim Christmas is to honor Christ then go and practice a bunch of pagan rituals..
Why do so many non-Christian Christmas lovers ignore the fact that Dec 25 is the date we've historically celebrated the birth of Jesus? Oh that's right, presuuuntz (supposed to be the zombie, mixed slightly with a handicapped speaker *brainss* voice.)
Oh, to answer your question. Because that's when we've historically celebrated it, dating back to around 300 A. D.
Christmas was not founded on Pagan beliefs. Do you even know where the word Christmas comes from? Cristes Maesse, go find that translation for me, and do your research with actual traditional Christians lurking.
What you mean I imagine is the theory that the "celebrations" were seen as a blasphemy to early Christian/Anti-Pagan Church leaders, but since the celebration won out as early as the 2nd century, I profess that Christians democratically (Since there is no mention of Jesus' actual birthdate, nor that festivals/celebrations are inherently bad) Many of the early Christians that contested Christmas celebration, actually had no biblical support, so that's why they lost.
Just like the Jews will eventually lose.
Anyway, I expect you anti-christs to pull these shenanigans on Halloween, but this is just lazy (by the way I celebrate Halloween, I simply don't observe it as a Christian holiday, that one is pretty easy to answer too)
Back to the drawing board anti-christs. Warning: If I catch the blasphemy I'm probably going to make you look stupid, being a former youth pastor.
In fact the only thing you can do is the tired "prove his existence." You're a forever one shot musket Anti-Christs.
The entire concept of the trinity and Jesus being God in the flesh are inherently polytheistic concepts. So if you're a true devout monotheist, you should denounce Christianity and convert to a more authentic monotheistic religion like Judaism or Islam. And also every religion that has ever existed has borrowed elements from other religions to convince people to convert and/or to condemn other religions anyways. Monotheism itself evolved from henotheism which evolved from pantheism which evolved from polytheism which evolved from animism. Of course there are other theisms that are more like in between stages of these so I won't go into those sorry.
I totally agree
The trinity was conceptualised by the Greeks. I think Plotinus wanted it to be some sort of fusion between the concept of God as described by Aristotle, Plato and the Stoics, but all three rolled into one. This obviously had some influence on the Church, but now we teach that the three persons are equal, and together that are one God. The origins of a belief does not mean anything about its current meaning, and there are philosophical arguements that prove God must be one, but made of many persons (a sub-argument of Craig's moral argument for God in response to Platonic forms of morality)
@Concordio Not three equal and together they are one god. That’s like some sort of Transformer.
@Concordio The Trinity is that all three are the same, just different forms. You can separate a a liter of water into three but they are all one, that’s the best I have. Perhaps also that same liter can be solid liquid or gas but it is all the same.
We ignore it because
1) That's like asking why do people still buy Volkswagen cars when they donated their factories to the Nazi war effort. It's a very "cancel culture" type of thing to attack something for it's past or origin when those pasts or origins have no impact today
2) Christianity is special in that it integrated a lot of its contemporary philosophies (mainly aristotle's and Plato's) to demonstrate that people beliefs where right except for the fact that they didn't include God. In other cases, contemporary philosophies were intergrated as they allowed a better understanding of the faith. - for example, the Trinity is a Hellenistic concept
Except the Bible is very clear on its stance about pagan commingling with Christianity.
Well that depends on what part of the Bible you look at. in the Old Testament, you could argue that God's objective is to establish a people for him to manifest himself to in the form of Jesus. Hence, all the laws that God gave were about separating the Jews from the pagan practices (most focus of these is to not have homosexual sex, a pagan practice). But in the New Testament, now that he has established the chosen people, the Israelites, He comes down as Jesus and gives himself up freely for all, both Jews and gentiles, or in this case, both Christians and pagans. There's even biblical precedent of this mixing. We see in Acts 17, would-be-saint Paul debates with the Greeks, using their Greek philosophies to derive many things about Jesus Christ and God
Things such as the yule log have unknown origins, Many attribute it to pagan mythology, but it was first recorded in 1184, long after the time of Jesus, so it really is not known. Many of the pagan celebrations have been adapted to fit the beliefs of Christians, who really do not care the exact dates involved in Jesus' life. Now, the yule log represents a long lasting warmth, tyoical of the Christmas season.
Santa is myth, also, but most Christian households have no problem accepting Santa during the holidays as he expresses happiness, giving, and love for all, and helps the young children look forward to Christmas very much.
So it really does not matter that the dates may be correct, or that many things began with paganism. Christians are using the symbols for Christian beliefs and do not believe in the pagan beliefs.
Well, there is a theory that the date is purposefully chosen to overlap with pagan celebrations of winter solstice.
Though it definitely wasn't "founded on" pagan holidays, that statement is false (whether out of ignorance or purposefully).
However there is a theory, that the celebration of Christmas was deliberately designed to appeal "pagan friendly" in order to appeal positively to pagans and to spark the interest of pagans in wanting to know more about what and why is celebrated during Christmas.
HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO YOU... that EVERYONE'S ancestors ARE SOME form of 'Pagan'?
They tout that Jesus spoke "This is my NEW and everlasting covenant..." and that GOD the Father
is both the 'Alpha and Omega' SO GUESS WHAT...
THEIR 'GOD the Father' IS... the original 'Pagan' all-father
and the so-called 'Christians' are merely obnoxious 'kids' picking & choosing what is... and is not 'dogma',
for their authoritarian in-crowd 'club'. The "sign of the cross" is merely their club's 'secret handshake'~
"In hoc signo vincis" ..."by this sign, We conquer!" Never forget in THEIR Bible's Genesis & the Hebrew Pentuch verses 1:27-30 is 'From where PAGAN 'Witch's draw their divinely-given authority.
Conquer WHAT? GOD, the Procreator's, ACTUAL legitimate domain?
'Spare the rod /spoil the Child'
It wasn't specifically taken from paganism since that pagans didn't have 25th of December in their calendars nor mythologies - What they had was the solstice - Which is only a symbolic thing that could be used by anyone for religious purposes (and was used by almost everyone) - Including Christians.. But I definitely see your point in Christmas trees and Easter eggs and the like - these are mostly things that have been kept because before those same people became Christians - They were pagans - So instead of losing those traditions - Created a new storyline that goes along their new religion - It's the same for Muslims and mecca - All in all you're right I think I just said those things because I like to argue even when I agree so I'll leave you to it..
Most Muslims aren't aware of how pagan Islam is and the few that are will make excuses lol
They don't if they are truly honest.
Christianity was a rising religion in the Roman Empire a few centuries after Jesus Christ died. Yet Paganism was still practiced by a majority across western Europe.
The Roman Empire opted to make Christianity the new religion of the expanding Empire, something that could bring the general population under one set of rules or beliefs.
The Council of Nicaea brought together many group of Christians with some Pagans to agree everything such as the Christian calendar dates etc, and yes they did tweak some Christian religious dates slightly to match existing Pagan dates. This made it easier for people with Pagan beliefs to transition.
Spring is likely correct.
Other cultures fused their traditions to Christian tradition.
Many of us are aware of that fusion. Now lets see. 6 of the 7* days of the week "celebrate" non Christian/Jewish tradition.
Monday... The moon's day. From Greece and Rome
Tuesday... Tiw's Day. Norse god.
Wednesday... Woden's day. Norse god of the wood.
Thursday... Thor's Day. You know who he is.
Friday... Friggs day. Germanic goddess Frigg associated with the Roman goddess Venus.
And finally Saturday, Saturn's day, *also associated with the Jewish Sabbath
Do we realize we celebrate these 7 gods every day?
Uggg. Why do so many like to point these things out like Christians don’t know. Yes, we know, many of us anyway. It was taught in my Catholic school along with how the Bible came together (that’s another one people like to ‘splain like they have some secret genius knowledge), the fact that 40 days and nights are not literal but that 40 represented simply a large number, that the eye of the needle is a small gate in the Jerusalem wall… I am guessing that I know more of this than you do and yet still believe in its meaning just like the Pope understands and still dedicates his life to God.
I grew up in the church and am very familiar with the Bible and what it says about integrating pagan practices..
Why is it that you seem to be sounding like the Grinch. The Grinch thought he could destroy Christmas by taking the presents. Others seem to think that pointing out what is already known by Christians will… will what? Jolt us? Stop us from believing? I don’t understand. Anyway, just for giggles:
You comparing a movie to historical fact?
Not at all. I was comparing you and people like you to the Grinch. You seem to want to hurt the day because you think you know better than others… and then you go out of your way to show people their folly. But the Grinch was wrong in his premise and so are you. I thought that much was obvious from my statement.
Dude I love Christmas I all it pagan glory! My point is that Christians who celebrate Christmas should know of it pagan origins. The Bible is more than clean on its stance of paganism, it goes so far as to call it an abomination to god.
Who gives a dead reindeer's ass.
Every holiday we celebrate comes from some other culture: Christmas, Halloween, Thanksgiving, etc. Every tradition there is is a modification of some other tradition , which comes from another tradition.. and another... and another.
You questions sounds like it is along the lines of what the left calls "cultural appropriation" Yes , there are many Christian traditions that can be traced back to old pagan beliefs. So what? Should we all stop celebrating Christmas to keep a few bumble fuck leftists happy? No, fuck those yellow bellied commie pricks.
That’s not my point.. I’m asking why Christians knowing celebrate a pagan holiday when the Bible clearly states not to?
@Subarugirl Boiled down heavily.. It kinda fits the theme of being a Christian (or part of any religion). You don’t question the teachings. Somewhere along the way the trend started and everyone just followed.
Pagans in Europe used branches of evergreen fir trees to decorate their homes and brighten their spirits during the winter solstice. Early Romans used evergreens to decorate their temples at the festival of Saturnalia, while ancient Egyptians used green palm rushes as part of their worship of the god Ra.
Christians used a tree as sign of everlasting life with god on December 25.
Pagans celebrated the winter solstice on December 21 in the northern Hemisphere.
Why do you think trees are unique to Pagans?
We know it. We just don't really care honestly. Because we all grew as children with the magic of Christmas. Means be with family, good food, jolly times, gifts. That's what it is to us. It's a pagan traditional that was taken over by the world and transformed.
Take Spain. They have a tradition there where kids wack a log until gifts come out, not a pinata, they call it mata torrones if I recall right. It's a Christmas tradition that even has a jingle.
We all took it and morph it over the years.
Other than being a talking point to debate, how is this relevant from a practical standpoint?
If birthdays originated from pagan holiday celebrations of New Birth, would you give someone a diatribe of how they should be thinking about that on their birthday?
Or would you kind of just say happy birthday and keep that to yourself? Lol the idea of that sounds almost as bad as someone that wants to debate whether or not we landed on the moon at a party. Like bruuuuh
I’m not talking about birthdays I’m talking about pagan rituals that christans practice
I’m intelligent enough to see hypocrisy when I see it.
Most people are not Christian. Everyone celebrates Christmas all over the world as a national holiday. It’s just a time to spend time with family, decorate the house and streets and eat lots of nice food. Most people don’t go to church and do Christian things on Christmas they just spend time with loved ones.
All over the world as a national holiday? I think you mean global. I don’t have an issues with Christmas, but Christians should since their Bible is very clear in it’s stance about pagan holidays and rituals
“ As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.”
Romans 14:5-6
See there is no problem with celebrating holidays in the bible
@Neosporin Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Deuteronomy 12:29-32
“When the Lord your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’ You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods. “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.
Deuteronomy 12:32 ESV
“Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.
Deuteronomy 18:9-12 ESV
“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.
No one knows when Jesus was born. The Bible doesn't say a thing about it so any date anyone says is pure speculation. That said, a lot of Christians understand that most holidays are pagan holidays. Most of the ones I know celebrating do it for their children.
we can approximate the month of Jesus’ birth to be around the time of Tishri (mid to late September). To arrive at this date, start at the conception of John the Baptist, Sivan (June), count forward six months to arrive at Gabriel’s announcement of the conception of Jesus, Kislev (December), then count forward nine more months, the time it takes for human gestation, to reach Tishri (September), when Jesus was born.
Lmao you were the one who gave a history lesson in that Flinstones question isn't it? 😂 Okay let's say Christ was born in spring and Christmas was a pagan celebration, just like Thanksgiving was originally a Native American celebration. So what's the problem with that? Christmas is something in the hearts of many people. I'm agnostic, but I love Christmas too. Don't make these stuff such big deals.
I’m agnostic too, and love Christmas we put up our tree last week. My question is aimed toward christians who celebrate holidays founded on pagan religion and just ignore the fact that Bible clearly says not to. Just curious why a Christian would knowingly partake I something that is based on a pagan Roman holiday called Saturnalia
So you've got a problem with the fact that they're celebrating a pagan holiday, but you also like celebrating it? There are cultures in the world where they borrowed celebrations from other cultures (which derive from a race/religion that's different to theirs). As far as I know the people from the other race/religion (who originally found the celebration) don't care about it at all. And here we're talking about why Christians are celebrating a Roman holiday when the Romans do not even exist anymore.
No I have a problem with self righteous hypocrites
Reality is we are all hypocrites in some sort of a way. Sometimes I give advices to people, but I don't follow the same advices I give them. I even blame myself for being such a hypocrite. Let's say the self righteous hypocrites stopped celebrating, then what? What about the ones who are not hypocrites?
The time of year that Christmas is celebrated is based on a pagan feast. That was intentionally done by the early Christians to get people to stop celebrating the pagan feast. The celebration itself is not pagan, it's to celebrate the birth of Christ.
Christ wasn’t even born in December, it’s believe he was born in either the spring or fall. Most believe around steptember due to biblical transcripts. Saturnalia how ever was celebrated in December.
As I said, the date was picked to contravene the pagan ceremony, it had nothing to do with his actual birth date, which no one really knows anyway.
Lambing season plays a large part in the gospels story of the nativity, and lambing season is spring. You were right the first time.
As for why Christians are like that - most of them never thought about their religion in any sort of critical way. If they did, they wouldn't be believers.
You're wrong of course. The Yuletide festival is the pagan festival and starts before Christmas and ends after.
Christmas was actually a secular Roman era national holiday. The Church made it a religious one when they took over the empire. As most Romans were pagan and the empire was of many different faiths and cultures, it was eventually made a general festival with Christian overtones. The rest just didn't care very much.
It's not even that, really. It's not the birth of Christ, it's the rising of the Sun by 1 degree after having just spent 3 days (the Winter solstice) at it's lowest point in our sky. The same 3 days they used to come up with the Easter story of him being killed and buried for 3 days and then rising from the grave! It's all Sun worship shit that they spun into this bullshit religion story!!
To me the intention counts.
Whatever Christmas ''has been once'' - it isn't any longer for me.
As for the specific date: any other day would have been suitable as well. After all, Christmas is more a symbolic thing in belief, rather than throwing a party for a certain person.
No one gets set up over ''Good Friday'', either. Who knows... perhaps it was a Tuesday?
Thank you for addressing this! This is why I don’t celebrate holidays anymore. Holidays are literally built off of the devil and people don’t understand. People also don’t understand Jesus was born in the spring, not December 25th.
Exactly! Just like when people celebrate birthdays and anniversaries. Christians don’t realize that they are actually practicing pagan rituals.
@Subarugirl only 1/3 of the world has you and I’s thinking , so it’s no wonder people will fight you on this one
I’m sure your family is glad they have one less present to buy
I am happy as hell I have zero presents to buy. As I imagine most of the world would be happy as hell if they didn’t feel pressure to buy presents for a Satanic holiday
@joeldalton if they are happy celebrating their pagan rituals
@Subarugirl majority of people would be happy as hell to not spend money on gifts they can barely just afford have they not been socially pressured that others that don’t care they are celebrating a holiday revolved around the devil
By others*
And the concept of the devil was taken from older pagan religions lol
@bingbongbangbung and the Bible made him the villain
Just one of many facts christians would prefer to ignore. They're good & have lots of experience 'looking the other way'.
Lets face it, Christmas is about getting people to spend money they don't have to buy junk that people don't need. Religion has nothing to do with it.
Paper from the pagan origins sure
100%! If people weren’t socially pressured I’m sure they would feel relieved to be able to pay their bills and have money left over than buying gifts they can’t afford
Well they wouldn’t be christian if they were smart enough to do their own research. The story of christ as a whole was a plagiarized amalgamation from different pagan and Egyptian mythology. Resurrected in three days, Walked on water, born of a virgin etc.
Okay, so let's say it's a holiday founded in Pagan beliefs. Now what? Lol. People are enjoying that day, not just the Christians but some non-Christians too, and if people are happy and that's all that matters. If you don't like it don't celebrate.
I love Christmas I am just curious why Christians knowingly celebrate a holiday founded in pagan beliefs when the Bible is very clear on its stance against it
The new year's day is also supposed to be a Roman holiday, originally celebrated in March, the month dedicated to Mars. later Caesar changed it to the 1st of January. So do you mean that people aren't supposed to celebrate the new year as well because it derives from the pagans? You say you love Christmas but also have problems with Christians celebrating it wow. There are festivals around the world that were borrowed by one culture from another which go against one party's beliefs or traditions, I guess they are supposed to stop them as well.
I didn't say people shouldn't celebrate it, I am just curious why Christians take part in holidays founded on paganism when the bible is very clear on its stance against paganism and worshiping other deities.
You say you love Christmas so which Christmas do you celebrate normally the pagan one or the Christian one lol? The most ridiculous part is you're calling them hypocrites but also celebrate their festival.
@lonestarryzky If you postpone your birthday party, she is the type of person to come to your house, eat the cake, dance to the music and then call you an offender because you were celebrating it on someone else's birthday.
no what hypocritical is someone who calls them self a Christian then celebrates pagan rituals designed to honor pagan gods.
Isaiah 1:14-15
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.
Maybe because they don't know that. I wonder why they worship statue's in some churches. That is pagan worshipping right?
I’m an age of information… ignorance is a choice
It´s true but in fourth century AD Christmas was dated on 25th December. So because it´s been so long on this date it´s hard to remove it and place on another date.
Because it's intentional. The Church has always used syncretism as part of its process of converting non-Christians. It's not like there's anything wrong with it.
Except the part where the Bible is very clear on its stance about pagan beliefs and rituals, it even goes so far as to say that god finds in an abomination.
Its stance is against abominable and unconscionable practices from those faiths and nations. You can use mistletoe, it's fine.
Oh I’m not against Christmas in all it’s pagan glory. I just find it interesting that people celebrate in the name of their god while performing rituals that were originally meant to honor pagan gods.
Because people instead of studying history they just believe that everything is born out of Christianity and the rest are wrong. Even though Christianity as a whole came out from other religions and mythological stories. I was born as a Christian Orthodox by the way, since I started reading about these stuff I stopped caring about any of them.
No one knows exactly when he was born... hence it doesn't matter. They picket the 25th so that is the day it will be acknowledged.
Saturnalia was celebrated around the the winter soloist, things like the Christmas tree, caroling, the Yule log, holly, and mistletoe were all origins from pagan holidays and traditions that predate christ
Most Christians so know this. We do Christmas for 2 things. 1) birth of Jesus, ans 2) to spread joy and just try to enjoy life with the people around you. It is a pegan holiday. But a great one it is
What's Pagan about it? Were you the type of kid who would hop into a "Free Candy" Panel Van?
@Mossberg500 no. There's nothing wrong with Christmas or paganism.
No of course not, there isn't anything wrong about either.
@Mossberg500 Well Christmas originally started out as a pagan holiday called Saturnalia. Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival and holiday in honor of the god Saturn, held on 17 December of the Julian calendar and later expanded with festivities through to 23 December. The holiday was celebrated with a sacrifice at the Temple of Saturn, in the Roman Forum, and a public banquet, followed by private gift-giving, continual partying, and a carnival atmosphere that overturned Roman social norms: During Saturnalia, work and business came to a halt. Schools and courts of law closed, and the normal social patterns were suspended.
People decorated their homes with wreaths and other greenery, and shed their traditional togas in favor of colorful clothes known as synthesis. Even slaves did not have to work during Saturnalia, but were allowed to participate in the festivities; in some cases, they sat at the head of the table while their masters served them.
But by the fourth century A. D., Western Christian churches settled on celebrating Christmas on December 25, which allowed them to incorporate the holiday with Saturnalia and other popular pagan midwinter traditions.
Okay guys then let's stop celebrating it, you see, it's supposed to be a pagan holiday.
So now everybody who had a problem with it can go and live in peace.
I don’t have a problem with Christmas, I’m just curious why Christians knowingly celebrate a holiday founded in pagan rituals even though their Bible says not to
The Bible also says that you can choose your own Sabbath day. It just says the 7th day your rest but that 7th day can be any day you choose. Don't the 7th day Adventists use Saturday as their Sabbath? If Christians want to choose Dec 25 as the day they celebrate the birth of Christ, who is to tell them they can't? And it doesn't mean they are following pagan ways.
@Daniela1982 where in the Bible does it say that because from what I have read it says to honor the sabbath day and keep it holly
It does but it doesn't say what day is the Sabbath. People assume that since God created the Earth in 7 days (one day is like 1,000 years to the Lord - or a million.) that the 7th day is the Sabbath as it says on the 7th day God rested. But as the calendar was not invented yet Christians just used Sunday as the Sabbath.
@Daniela1982 actually the Hebrews did have a calendar, just not the Gregorian calendar which we follow today in the untied states
Lots had calendars like the Mayan calendar. But I don't know if they ever had anything written down like we have today.
I think all non-pagans got to rename the days of the week as well. Or else there'll be another question like why do they call it Saturday when it's dedicated to Saturn etc.
No, Saturday is the day you took your SAT test.
ohh how funny
It doesn’t matter. It’s when we come together to celebrate Christ… who cares when he was really born. No one knows for sure.
I mean I would think that Christians should care about what the bones says not to do
u In what way is believing in Jesus Christ and celebrating His Birth is rooted in pagan beliefs?
It’s believed that Christ was born in September not December. Saturnalia how ever was celebrated during that time. by the fourth century A. D., Western Christian churches settled on celebrating Christmas on December 25, which allowed them to incorporate the holiday with Saturnalia and other popular pagan midwinter traditions.
Traditions and rituals like gift giving, decorating the Christmas tree, caroling, the Yule log, Holley and mistletoe were all taken from pagan holidays.
Yes, I've heard these before.
As for for things like mistletoe and Christmas trees and things like that, they are not essential to the holiday from the spiritual standpoint. From a cultural perspective, they may be, but Christianity does not believe them to be necessary in order to celebrate.
Regarding the date of Christmas, early Christian bishops and saints, such as Hippolytus and Theophilus (both of whom lived in the First and Second Centuries), argued that Christ was born on December 25th. Saint Augustine also claimed likewise.
On that note, I'm aware of the festivals of Saturnalia. The problem with that argument is that Saturnalia is often observed from December 17th through December 23rd (or 22nd; I don't remember exactly). I don't mean to seem snarky or disrespectful, but the last time I checked, December 23rd is not December 25th. I get that people think that faithful Christians aren't the most intelligent bunch in the world, but that would have been a special failure in prudential judgment to think they were being that clever and sneaky as to co-opt a proximate date to cover up the alleged theft of a pagan holiday.
Okay well then why do atheists celebrate Christmas if they think it’s a bunch of pagan nonsense then and they don’t believe in anything?
Because atheists don’t follow a deity that says they shouldn’t.
@marish01 maybe because they don’t have a Bible that tells them not to celebrate pagan holidays, Christians do
@Subarugirl you can’t refute my logic cause you don’t know how 🤣
What on earth do Christmas trees, Holley and mistletoe have to do with the birth of Christ?
There are specifications against paganism in the Bible
@marish01 that was founded on Roman and Germanic paganism
What an idiot you are @Subarugirl. You attack Christmas for being Pagan nonsense and yet you celebrate it as an atheist. You just have an anti-Christian agenda probably because you grew up in a low-income uneducated white trash Christian household and so that's you're way of being rebellious to your pathetic roots. What an eyesore and a load of garbage your entire face is. Just get out of my sight you piece of white trash uneducated low-income garbage.
Jesus was actually born either sometime in autumn or spring, as those are only times that animals would be kept in manger. So both times were correct.
Three days after winter solstice. Three days, get it?
Your mean the three days and three nights before resurrection?
Bingo!
Experts believe that Christ died in the spring, sometime around April… why is Christmas so closely associated to the birth of Christ when according to the texts we can approximate the month of Jesus' birth to be around the time of Tishri (mid to late September).
So at least Good Friday and Easter Sunday get it strictly right? :D
Easter first started out as a celebration of the Spring Equinox: a time when all of nature is awakened from the slumber of winter and the cycle of renewal begins. Anglo-Saxon pagans celebrated this time of rebirth by invoking Ēostre or Ostara, the goddess of spring, the dawn, and fertility.
If I remember correctly, at those celebrations, virtuality was celebrated by huge orgies, and animals that reproduce quickly like rabbits and chickens were used as symbols for that
True that. But again, Spring, dawn, new life, The Resurrection - it all works out well.
The Bible is also clear about how god feels about integrating pagan beliefs.. he said it is him self, he is a selfish god
New Testament or Old Testament? Paul was all about making converts and communicating to pagans in terms they could understand.
I don’t think Paul meant to adopt pagan rituals
The epistles suggest he was flexible on this.
He wasn’t so flexible when he orders the slaughter of hundreds of boys ands of men women and children in Canaan
Come on, when was the last time you met a Christian who actually follows facts or logic?
They celebrate the birth of Jesus on that day. Christmas is a big holiday because of that.
Christmas is a holiday because saturnalia
Its cause there isn't Christmas in the fall, maybe we need a second one.
Most christians dont even known what the bible even says. Remember, tradition is just pressure from dead people.
Jesus never existed, watch this below
https://www.youtube.com/embed/4jOzCMy9e5EActually a lot of historians believe a man like Jesus did exist, just not like the way the Bible portrayed him.
Wrong. They are using the DATE of a pagan holiday, they're not celebrating it. No one knows when (and some would say if) Jesus was born.
So Christmas trees, caroling, the giving of gifts, the Yule log, holly and mistletoe toe are Christian rituals?
I just think that it's odd that Christians celebrate it when the bible is so clear on it's stance against paganism
Well European Christians are Pagan converts. The Roman Catholic Church is practically Pagan. And the Romans were hermetic, so the believed that God was Saturnus. Hence Christmas being Saturnalia
Because it doesn't matter nowadays. The point is to have a date to celebrate, and since the Bible doesn't specify which season it was it shouldn't matter much at all.
Bingo, while it may be worthwhile and interesting to look into why certain traditions exist, it doesn't change the fact that there's no sense in assaulting a tradition that isn't bringing tangible harm because they tend to be important pieces of the fabric of the society you live in.
@BrosephBrostar oh I live Christmas! Don’t get me wrong I put our tree up a week ago. But Christians should be aware of Christmas’s pagan origins and the Bible’s stance on pagan rituals.
Christmas has been a Christian tradition for hundreds of years. I think it's mainly Jehovah's Witnesses who have a problem with Christmas, and they have some funny ideas in general.
@Xoirwinkan I mean the Bible is also pretty clear in its stance against practicing pagan rituals.
It's not a ritual if it has none of the original meaning, so it isn't pagan any longer either.
It doesn’t really work that way.. you can’t just ignore history.
Christmas isn't a pagan Holiday or at least not originally.
Christmas is in honor of Saint Nick who was a Christian and gave gifts to under privileged kids.
In Rome, where winters were not as harsh as those in the far north, Saturnalia—a holiday in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture—was celebrated. Beginning in the week leading up to the winter solstice and continuing for a full month, Saturnalia was a hedonistic time, when food and drink were plentiful and the normal Roman social order was turned upside down. For a month, enslaved people were given temporary freedom and treated as equals. Business and schools were closed so that everyone could participate in the holiday's festivities.
Also around the time of the winter solstice, Romans observed Juvenalia, a feast honoring the children of Rome. In addition, members of the upper classes often celebrated the birthday of Mithra, the god of the unconquerable sun, on December 25. It was believed that Mithra, an infant god, was born of a rock. For some Romans, Mithra’s birthday was the most sacred day of the year.
www.google.com/.../history-of-christmas
Ok, and? It still doesn't change Christmas is a in honor of Saint Nick to give gifts to kids.
If Pagans decided to enjoy it or twist it to their Holiday so be it. It doesn't change the fact is in honor of Saint Nick.
True born again Christians don't care about paganism nor their Holidays.
The Christians stole Christmas from the pagans.. way be fore St Nicholas… it was the church that took pagan rituals and made it into Christmas..
Wrong.
And it's the demonic catholic institution that is filled with paganism.
Saturnalia was celebrated before the birth of Christ by the Romans… the Christians took that and changed it into something that it’s not. St Nicholas was believed to have liked around 300 AD. Rituals like caroling, the Yule log, the Christmas tree and gift giving are all of pagan rituals which.
There are lots of Pagan customs in Christianity. Early Christians adapted their Pagan customs to fit their new Christian beliefs, hiding their original meanings and giving them new ones.
Though the Bible—the Word of God—makes no direct references to New Year's Eve, Lent, Easter, Halloween, or Christmas, the origins of these pagan holidays are mentioned as being abominations to God. The Bible is very clear about celebrating pagan holidays.
Go wash dishes in the sink. Bye.
You can’t ignore history just because you don’t like it..
What history? I as a Christian celebrate Christmas in honor of Saint Nick legacy, food and spending time with family. Has nothing to do with no damn pagans.
Well that’s how it originated, you wanna tell me what Christmas trees, the Yule log, holly, exchanging presents, have to do with Christianity, and why the Christians took those pagan traditions and integrated them into a “Christian” holiday
well because in order to stay deluded and belive in something that is not evidently ture, you have to get in the habit of ignoring facts xD
Christmas now has turned into a holiday about giving to other people. It makes sense since it comes after Thanksgiving which is about what and who your thankful for.
I just want a nice meal with someone else that loves me. Idc about the other stuff so much
It's not a pagan holiday you dumbass it's the birth of our lord and savior Jesus Christ.
Jesus wasn’t even born in the winter. They church took pagan holidays and merged them with Christianity. Look it up. Saturnalia specifically, which predates the birth of Christ
It is six stars to the Japanese because that is what they saw with the naked eye. It’s also why six stars are on the Subaru emblem. But it is also know as The Seven Sister, so some see seven. In actuality it is a cluster of stars that contain much more than 6 or 7.
You are so hung up on the season He was born. You forgot or simply don’t know it was 4 to 6 years prior to the year we observe. I regret telling you this as it will inflate your head more as you try and show people how smart you are… you types are all the same… like a monkey with a wrench, you just swing it around and it make you happy but it isn’t constructive at all.
What DOES make sense within religious sub-cultures? Not a single thing as far as I've seen.
Most of them probably are aware of it, but they don't care. Why should they? Does it matter? No. Also, it may be somewhat pagan, but the romans also celebrated something similar to Christmas, which is also where it gets it's influence.
If Jesus was born at all. More evidence he didn’t exist.
Actually historians believe that Jesus existed… just not the Bible version
I didn’t say he had superpowers, he was just a man. But a lot of historians believe that the man that Jesus in the Bible was based off existed, just not in the way that the Bible portrays. He was just a good man who preached about love and acceptance, that’s it.
Not really founded on pagan beliefs, just syncretized with some pagan customs.
Like decorating the tree, the Yule log, the fact it celebrated so close to the winter solstice, holly, caroling, mistletoe, and first giving.. those were all taken from the pagan holiday Saturnalia, which predated Christ
@Neosporin that’s a good point, Germanic
paganism also founded Christmas traditions
And that's Christmas how?
One, it's not based on saturnalia, any syncretism it has is with northern polytheistic traditions.
And it's not based on those, it's just syncretized with those.
How's the nativity based on such traditions?
Or the eating of turkey and tender?
The fruit cake?
Holy night?
The mass?
The charity that comes with Christmas?
The myth of a Greek catholic saint that gives everyone's gifts?
@Diodoro actually resources have been the reason for most wars. Though a lot of horrendous things have been done in the name of Christianity but that is not the point. I'm not bashing anyone, I am just curious why so many of ignore the parts of the bible where it's very clear that god finds paganism to be an abomination. The church to saturnalia, changed a few parts then slapped Jesus's name on it and called it Christmas. If it really was to honor the birth of Jesus, why didn't they at least try and get it close to the time of year he was born.
We can estimate when Jesus was born by counting backward from his death on Passover, Nisan 14 in the spring of the year 33 C. E. (John 19:14-16) Jesus was about 30 years old when he began his three-and-a-half-year ministry, so he was born in the early fall of 2 B. C. E.—Luke 3:23.
You passionately argued on the false premise that any given action done on the Yule is uniquely pagan and is therefore off limits to Christians.
The premise on its face is flawed and this guy raised valid points stating as such that you sidestepped because you're on a mission.
"Just curious" just comes across as a passive aggressive cover up for mercilessly drilling down the subject, while being sarcastic to people who are raising valid points worth mentioning
But you want to talk about what you want to talk about, because you're so convinced of your stance. So yes, you're just bashing Christians at the end of the day. Unless you're actually going to have a discussion with anyone in this thread who raises valid points that's all you're doing
@Diodoro I gave her a quote from the Bible that is clear that different interpretations are allowed on whether to celebrate specific holidays
"One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.”
Romans 14:5-6
But she ignored this like many other good points other people have brought up. In return she brought up some quotes in the Bible about Pagan customs that have to do with human sacrifices and divination. All of which are extremely far-fetched if it were to be applied to Christmas festivities.
Because, let's face it: Religion is retarded~
So people who believe in a random religion are also: Retarded~
When we say to the Muslims that you are celebrating the Christian holiday, the Muslims say that we are only celebrating the New Year :D
but they cut pine tree and turkey :D
most christians don't even know that. and if you tell them they refuse to accept that.
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