Define discriminate please.
Scripture is replete with warnings about false prophets and to examine those claiming to be of God.
““Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.”
Matthew 7:6 ESV
Here scripture tells us not to discuss the Holy things of God with unbelievers. Notice Jesus calls them pigs.
““Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.”
Matthew 7:15-20 ESV
In the above Jesus warns about false prophets.
“Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
Matthew 3:8-10 ESV
Here John the Baptist preaches about repentance and stats that all trees that don’t bear good fruit are cast into the fire, trees being a metaphor for people and fire a metaphor for hell.
What do these have in common? Discrimination. We are called to inspect fruit (evidence that one is born again). How can one do so without discriminating at a some point?
Now is the time to cry out to the Lord and repent and believe in him as your savior and obey him as your Lord and repent of your sins: for those reading this who have not done so and desire the forgiveness of their sins and eternal life.
Raised Catholic and believe in God and his teachings, but I don't let everything the church teaches shape my opinion of others. I keep them in mind, but I do everything in my power to be civil and not discriminate against anybody. If they have views that go against the church and the teachings, I don't hate them and I don't try to change their minds and act like a fanatical zealot to those who oppose my beliefs.
I feel that what the church teaches with the bible should be used as a foundation of morality and guiding compass to those it reaches. You have free will to act as you do and accept responsibility to pay for sinful actions and behavior in the end.
So let's use examples here. Gay marriage and abortion. I have no issues with gay marriage despite the sanctity of marriage being between man and woman being taught. I hate abortion and don't feel children should pay the price because of something they had no control over, however, I can make certain exceptions to it be it that the child is one of rape or incest or being a direct threat to the mother while carrying it. In my extreme view I see abortion as murder and convenience for most people because a child is an inconvenience to them and their lifestyle, but does that make them terrible people? No. They just made a decision I personally didn't like and disagreed with. Which is not a good measure to one's whole character. It is a begrudging thing I have to deal with because it is a choice.
However, the best way to keep myself grounded is to have the agree to disagree mindset if differences arise. Something a lot of people can't seem to do because it seems everyone is focused on winning an argument or determined to demean or hurt the other. Not worth the energy or time at the end of the day. No one will agree on everything because we are human and this falls back to free will and choice.
I feel like a true Christian would treat people kindly whether or not they agree with that person’s beliefs or lack thereof.
The concept of “discrimination” complicates things though because it implies that all things should be accepted.
If something is spoken against in the bible and a Christian follows the words of the bible, then there will be things that people do, which the Christian doesn’t agree with, approve of, or accept.
Whether that’s considered to be discrimination or not is up to interpretation. It really depends on how “discrimination” is being defined.
As a religious person, especially one of an Abrahamic religion, they generally believe that God is the judge, jury and executioner, plus there’s more emphasis on caring for people than judging and hurting them (I’m assuming, I’ve never read the bible or any religious book but it’s a fair enough assumption that religion is something nice) - there’s just no point in discrimination, even if the bible says that only Christians will get to heaven or encourages evangelism, because every religion believes themselves to be the right one anyways
"As a religious person, especially one of an Abrahamic religion..." im extremely curious which Abrahamic religion you're talking about. The Torah, the Bible and the Quran all have clear instructions to discriminate or discern or judge others.
Opinion
78Opinion
Eh don't agree nor disagree. Religion to me is something that was created with a solo purpose to discriminate anyone that did not line up with such views, therefore a person truly following a religion would do so.
In the bible the Judaic God himself discriminates against anyone who does not worship him to points of pure dictatorship. Which then one would say well yeah he created us all so he can dictate our lives how he see's fit which I just say yeah sure lol.
But for the argument sake of how one may want to join a religion because they thinks it spreads peace which is funny but alas some think it. Then yes there religious ways should stick to that to truly be correct to what they want to follow. Therefore a true religious person if they see that as "morally good" should lack in discrimination if wanting to be a good person.
Also No-True-Scotsman Fallacy it's funny how many people use this wrong. They don't see how something can be both correct but a generalisation, compared to Scotsman which is purely just in the wrong.
It's like you could say a real bear will attack a human in the wild. Now there is reasoning for it won't but one is not gonna sit there and go that's a Fallacy because it's a generalisation or rule that is kinda true it's pointless to argue ageist it.
How this one relates to religion and saying No true Christian. I think I will just let other's try figure that one out, I could say but honestly it would be one big long winded answer and this already all is. Safe to say a lot of people are using this Fallacy wrong tho.
Nobody has the right to define somebody else's faith or what's in their heart. We can use discernment, but we cannot be partial or discriminate. Only god is the judge of that. Also- If a Christian discriminates, then that doesn't mean he/she isn't true to his/her faith. It means that they are struggling with sin. All Christians do. I can be quite arrogant at times. I watch porn at times. That doesn't mean I'm not a true christian. It means I'm struggling, and trying to be better.
Romans 7:14-17 Describes this struggle well...
So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
Romans 2:1-2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
That's a good question. My first instinct is to agree, but reading some of the other responses I'd have to say it depends what you mean by a "true Christian." And also how you intend to use the word "discriminate".
"Definition of discriminate
transitive verb
1a: to mark or perceive the distinguishing or peculiar features of
Depth perception may be defined as the ability to appreciate or discriminate the third dimension …
— H. G. Armstrong
b: DISTINGUISH, DIFFERENTIATE
discriminate hundreds of colors
2: to distinguish by discerning or exposing differences : to recognize or identify as separate and distinct
discriminate right from wrong
especially : to distinguish from another like object
discriminate the individual voices in the choir
intransitive verb
1a: to make a distinction
discriminate among historical sources
discriminates between literary fiction and popular fiction
b: to use good judgment
2: to make a difference in treatment or favor on a basis other than individual merit
discriminate in favor of your friends
discriminate against a certain nationality"
- courtesy of Merriam-Webster https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/discriminate
Be careful using man's words to define this. Jesus passes down judgment. Over thinking it is the gift of knowledge given to you. A gift we have paid for but don't want.
@LightOfTruth Well in Matthew 7:6 Jesus does say: “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." - New International Version
As a Christian I disagree. We discriminate in who we date and marry as per the scriptures. However it doesn't say we can't be courteous to our fellow man. But there are verses that say you can't be married to someone who is not also Christian for instance. It says to not take a promiscuous person as your spouse as well. It also says no same sex relations. by the way lets not confuse this into meaning you are called to hate gay people because thats not the case. Simply not partaking in homosexual sex, etc. It is also in scripture that life starts at conception so abortion is off the table. Therefore we are also barred from dating people who are pro choice. Common misconceptions are that you cannot marry outside your race but this is not true at all and never mentioned in the bible. Its all about the person's faith and belief.
This:
Yep miss cherry i agree and i already answered her question and made lots of comments there...
A true christian would no discriminate others but still have his/her opinion without hurting the others...
If jesus gaves us the freedom of choice than who are we to judge and discriminate others but we are humans and we aren't perfect, sometimes we make mistakes and we repent and we always try our best to become better people...
It's not only about christians cause people from all religions and cults makes mistakes and might become discriminative, so it's all up to us and the way we think and act towards the others!
We all have sins but some people are more pure or haven't made sins as much as others...
Like i said that we aren't perfect, the only person who have no sins is Jesus "god"...
Sometimes the way we think in our heads and the things that comes up to our minds are considered sin even if we didn't do them in real life, we are always put into tests and the better person you become the more the evil will attack you and try to mess up with your mind but always stay strong and be a good person because in the end of the day it's you who choose your path and it's you who decides if you want to be a great person or not...
I think people have problems distinguishing between being a Christian and being Christ-Like.
A Christian is a person who has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
Being Christ-Like is emulating the life of Christ. Jesus forgave the people who beat Him with a whip. He forgave those who made Him wear a crown of thorns and pelted Him with stones and rocks. He forgave those who nailed Him to the cross and tortured Him for hours.
It is hard to follow the path of Christ. And while we all know what Christ would do in the face of discrimination, I think it is wrong to talk about being a true Christian beyond being a Believer. Too many of us, including myself, make the wrong decision. But we are still Christians.
Well I would think that you would be right but that's not the case anymore it doesn't matter which denomination that you're under it seems like those people do it the worst and they were Hypocrites when they do it because a lot of them do bad things in their private life and go to church for one reason and one reason only and that is to get forgiveness for what they do each and every day or week in their private life it seems like more and more church people are becoming hypocrites and it's really sad thing to witness.
I let people be who they want to be as long as it's not hurting anybody that I know or myself they are who they are and I just look at them as if they don't know any better or maybe they do but they're trying to fool everybody I just let them stay the fool they are
Agreed.
Even though we disagree with somethings in society, it doesn’t give us a right to treat people badly or harshly.
Mark 12:31 says…
“The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.”
John 15:12 says something similar..
“My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.”
No matter how different someone is, we should not discriminate (colour, race etc.) We are should show people the love Jesus showed. 💜💜💜
I guess. It depends on what you mean.
It is too vague.
They should love all people.
It would probably fall under what people mean by "discriminate" and all of the endless scenarios someone may say that is "discrimination".
It says for believers to "not be unequally yoked with unbelievers" basically... do not marry an unbeliever. The couple should be "united" and "one" and they should be teaching their kids the same thing... not differing at a core level and teaching their kids opposing views.
Someone may say that is "discrimination"
Overall I'd agree with your statement.
u Being a Christian does not make a person perfect, and ALL Christians are flawed human beings. It seems to be quite popular to laugh at Christians because they sometime fail in large and obvious ways, but real Christians are not better, nor do they pretend to be better, than anyone else.
My church is filled with sinners, including the guy in the pulpit.
Disagree.
That's a No-True-Scotsman Fallacy.
The defining characteristic of a 'christian' is that they accept the claim that christianity is true. What parts specifically they obey, ignore or deny are irrelevant. You or a christian who you happen to not like, are no more of an authority on which of you is a christian than the other one. You can't just change the definition of 'christian' to suit you.
Plus, I would argue that discriminating christians are following the bible better than those who do not. The bible is not a tolerant book.
@Gal67
Yes - the thing you have to believe is 'Does the christian god exist'.
Everything else is optional. For any extra criteria you try to add, I'll find you a christian who disagrees. And that's exactly the point I made originally.
@Gal67
It is clearly you who doesn't understand labels or fallacies.
The 'No True Scotsman Fallacy' isn't one that I recognise. It isn't fallacious to say that "this is what Christians (or some other group of people) believe, and one of the requirements to being a member of this group is that you believe the same".
Christians believe in the divinity of Christ, the resurrection, the existence of the supernatural, objective morality, the existence of objective reality, the linear nature of time, causality, judgement and doing what's right, among other things. You don't need to take my word for it, just ask the next one you come across.
@Gal67
"It isn't fallacious to say that "this is what Christians (or some other group of people) believe, and one of the requirements to being a member of this group is that you believe the same"."
Correct. But that requirement is accepting the christian god as true.
There's nothing in that definition about judging or not judging other people. There is a specific criteria for being a christian, and you don't get to move the goalposts just to exclude people who would disagree over minor parts of that belief.
Is everyone who doesn't follow christianity /exactly/ the same way you do a fake christian?
If another christian told me you were a fake christian... how would you counter them?
"Christians believe in [...], the resurrection, the existence of the supernatural, objective morality, the existence of objective reality, the linear nature of time, causality, judgement and doing what's right, among other things. You don't need to take my word for it, just ask the next one you come across."
All of that is just plain wrong. Those things are common christian beliefs, sure. But they aren't the defining characteristic. Ask some other christians.
A true Christian MUST discriminate against people. Numerous examples exist where it states you must treat people different depending on whether they are Christian or not.
1. Only marry a fellow Christian. Meaning being discriminating in your romantic relationships.
2. Christ has come to bring the sword amongst family. So you should discriminate even your own family if they are wicked.
Just two examples but there's a lot of explicit verses about how we are to judge other people which leaves us to discriminate against certain people at certain times.
This is a good article about it as well: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.christianpost.com/amp/5-ways-christians-should-judge-others.html
Facepalm* we don't discriminate we follow. God put the rules in place, Jesus passes judgment and we follow the rules.
@LightOfTruth if you read the Bible then you would clearly see "the rules" to discriminate against certain groups of people in certain ways. Have you read the Bible? And if you have, do you believe the Bible is both true and good?
The bible is a big book written and rewiten. Be more direct about what your saying. Do you have an example you would like me to speak to directly?
@LightOfTruth did you read my post or look at the article that specifically lists many examples?
Again do you have one that you would like me to talk to, I am not going to play this game of overton window. Pick a spot and I will talk direct to it.
@LightOfTruth from the article a point im specifically familiar with "Those who quote Matthew 7:1 as evidence that Christians should never judge need to read the context of that verse. Yes, Jesus says, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged," but he goes on to say, "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"
In other words, don't apply a double-standard and judge someone for a sin you're equally, or even more guilty, of committing. Instead, Jesus says, "first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." So the solution isn't to refrain from judging; it's to fix yourself so you can help fix others."
I think your missing the point of the statement. Don't judge or you will be judges in the same manner. It's supposed to be a thought provoking ah ha moment kind of saying. Or maybe this will. more more sense. Dont play in the street, when you play in the street here are some things that can heppen. Remember translations are not 100% and Sentence structure has changed.
@LightOfTruth and you are only cherry picking the first sentence. Whats your commentary on the rest of the passage? Conveniently you left it off. Context is key.
Many confuse discrimination with separating ourselves from the world. We are instructed to love others as God loved us, by sending Jesus to die for our sins. We also are instructed to hate the things that God hates and are made clear in the pages of the scriptures. So the way some live life and the actions they take are to be avoided, but we love everyone because it is not the person we hate, and God wishes all to be saved. This is why Jesus said to go forth and teach others. Our lives depend on it.
As an Ex-Christian/Former Christian... whatever. I completely agree. This is one of the reasons I am no longer Christian. The bible states many times that you should act as such, but the followers act completely opposite. (The ones I've come across.) Didn't make sense to me, so it gave me another reason out of hundreds to convert to omnism.
I totally understand this and I see where you are coming from. At some point I almost gave up on being Christian, due to the fact that I was in a bad Christian environment.
It is truly sad that Christians are not seeing this. We are losing Christians, while we preach about gaining them. Sometimes, it is hard to reach out to people, and we wonder why…😞
@JoyGirl I think it could just be the contradictory in most Christians. It's unappealing to people searching for a place of belonging in religions.
No. The ideal Christian wouldn't discriminate but we can see in the scripture examples of very holy men, prophets who were prejudiced. God tried to change their view but the fact they were that way didn't make them not be the other stuff.
@haha
Where in scripture does it say that? I’m highly skeptical already. You said God “tried” to change their view. As if God attempted to do something and failed.
@Exterminatore You have heard of free will, right? This means that God does not force people to believe something... he can force them to perform actions if he chooses to. An example is the story of the prophet Jonah. Read it.
Though I agree I'd argue that a Christian should meet everybody with love he can still disagree with other people on certain topics.
Just because I'm a Christian I don't need to love any lifestyle on this planet.
For me tolerating that other people have a different mindset and a different way of living doesn't that I have to support that.
For me there's no contradiction in meeting with love besides that.
Stop sugarcoating it. Me being transgender isn't a mindset, lifestyle, or way of living. It's what I am, what God made me, and it's not something you're entitled to disagree with. I'm literally just a person. It's a shame you feel the need to tolerate me. You feel the need to tolerate me not because I smell bad or talk too much or have a shitty attitude. But because I exist.
Have some dignity. I don't care how you feel about me I care about you pretending that I'm doing something that you have to tolerate. Just say you don't like LGBT people. Be a man, grow some balls, stand up for what you yourself and what you believe and shout to the world "I DON'T LIKE FAGS AND TRANNIES. THEYRE NASTY AND SICK PERVERTS AND THEYRE GOING TO HELL. I TOLERATE THEM TRYING TO EXIST BUT I DONT LIKE IT AND WOULD PREFER THAT THEY didn't EXIST"
@ElizaPam Actually, God made you a man. That's just a fact. I understand that you don't feel comfortable being a man and you don't want to be one, and I sympathize with your feelings. But that doesn't take away from the fact of what God made you.
(by the way, I think you're a nice person and I have nothing against you.)
@Jamie05rhs You can call me whatever you want but I know what I am.
@ElizaPam No, I have never said that trannys and fags are going to hell because I neither know nor decide that. I´m not entitled to decide your life choices for most because I don´t know you. I tolerate that you made decisions for your life that I didn´t but also never had to make. It´s your interpretation that I don´t want you and other trans-people not exist. I´ve never said I just meant that I don´t feel the need to actively love other people´s choice of living, meaning I just live my life differently. Guess what I can also argue God made me that way to question what other people say about life.
I don´t hate you or any other participant of LGBQt+, but I´m living my life differently I won´t go to or celebrate CD.
I don´t have much a problem with LGBQT+ and I don´t hate the community. The main problem I have is that every now and then a new gender or orientation comes up arguing they always have been there but they felt the need to point them being there.
Which raises the question why he can´t define each other firstly and mostly as humans. I´ve never defined myself by my sexuality but people are concerning that.
There are many people calling themselves Christians who discriminate.
And when religious people turn to us to alter our perceptions instead of turning to those who discriminate to alter their behavior it shows a complete lack of faith in the effectiveness of their faith - as though they are fully aware there's no reason anyone should actually be taking all of this seriously and are further fully aware that their religion's authenticity relies entirely on the perception of authenticity.
i completely disagree with this statement.
as a true Christian, you would be against same sex marriage, homosexual acts, other religions (only Christians go to haven so how discriminatory is that?), you are taught that there is only one god and all the others are wrong? etc etc etc.
to be honest i do find it a bit wrong. its one thing to say follow me, but another to say if you dont you will go to hell. what about all the good people in other religions?
I have never meet a religious person that hasn't discriminated people. It's in their blood. We are better then them, we believe the right thing, they are sinners, the Bible is full of judgements and whoever that doesn't follow that alignment is looked down on. How is that not discrimination?
I agree, but... Christians are the same as other people - sinners, and therefore, imperfect. The difference is we've accepted the forgiveness of Jesus.
There are a LOT of Christians who may show signs of discrimination, and MANY other sinful habits, regardless of their race. In general, though, you're correct. Christians, for the most part, won't discriminate.
⚫A true Christian can discriminate or decide not to discriminate since humans are always humans and always unpredictable in thoughts n actions.
But I can try to agree that in Christianity a bible does not support discrimination if am right about it, since am not all that familiar with the bible a lot.
@Cherry234
@TheAfrikan I'm not necessarily talking about the Bible. I just found that picture off the internet. I mean in general not discriminating against people. Like being tolerant of people who don't follow Christianity or people who have different beliefs.
@Cherry234 my bad well then they should not discriminate others who are not Christians, but men am not a Christian but I happen to have a Catholic relative who hates other sectors of Christianity as long as they are not Catholics n he is a believer for sure. So
@TheAfrikan It's alright. Some people answered my question and mentioned the Bible. Some Christians hating different sects of Christianity makes no sense. It sounds like tribalism to me and a way to divide people.
@Cherry234 yeah lol that is how this world is fucked up like. but what matters is respecting someone's own choice and desire n let them choose own fate, rather than being devided up.
@TheAfrikan Agreed.
I don't really condone this thing I see often where non-believers fancy themselves qualified to dictate what true Christians should and should not do. Most of which hasn't read a page of Scripture. As a Christian; a true Christian speaks the truth of God and His word regardless of whether or not it offends people. Now there are right ways and wrong ways to speak truth, it is to be done respectfully and in love. But if still, someone is enraged by what we say even if done gently and respectfully, then we're not discriminating. You're the ones who simply cannot stand that we're standing up for our faith. And the hatred is from your side, not ours.
"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."
-John 3:19
This is what i say too. An example i use is that you can shoot a home invader in love. Love for your family and for yourself. You can also have love for the burglar and hope they live and come to Jesus through their trauma if they survive or hope in their mistake they are judged compassionately by God. For some reason many "Christians" think you need to help load a burglars truck w your most valuable belongings and offer him your young daughter and wife for a good time in order to be morally right. Smh.
@bamesjond0069 Indeed, a good example.
Yes we has Christians not should discriminate nor judge.
But at the same time we are humans we're flawed and imperfect we do make mistakes sometimes. And we will make mistakes occasionally. And that's why we ask for forgiveness when we do make mistakes and then do our best to not make them again.
But the important thing is that we try our best to live according to Gods way.
True, sadly most Christians are Christians in name only.
"Lead us not into temptation"
is another way of saying
God, help me discriminate
"Don't cast pearls before swine"
is another way of saying
God, help me discriminate
You have every right to follow your own path
And not worry about the trash on this Earth
"Let He who is without sin cast the first stone."
While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Are you sure your interpretation of those words matches the deeds of Jesus Christ? Or are you perhaps projecting your own desires onto the page?
Yeah, I'm sure. Discrimination and judgement are two different things.
Well, I'd argue you can't do one without the other. But alright. Time will tell. We'll agree to disagree.
When Jesus was 12 years old, he stayed in the temple rather than following his parents home. Was he not discriminating against people when he did this? Was he not saying, the will of my Father in Heaven is more important than yours? But look, even if I did identify as a Christian, it's not my job to match the deeds of Christ. That's Christ's job to heal sinners, not mine. I've got my own sins to worry about, not someone else's. But, by the same token, I can choose to associate with people who feed my soul and my spiritual life and not others.
Religion is the number one defense of discrimination. And believers absolve themselves of any wrong doing in the name of faith.
"True Christians" exist only in theory, not in reality.
There's an entire region of the US called the "Bible belt" and it's steeped in racism that continues to this day. They all consider themselves to be good Christians, but they are as racist as the day is long.
A true Christian follows the teachings and examples of Christ. Christ spent his time surrounding himself with and loving thieves, prostitutes, and the destitute. He did not pass judgement. He simply offered love and aide. Because Christ understood that it is through love that you bring people to Christianity. Not hate.
To quote Ghandi, "I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
You're insinuating that you do not believe one must read or adhere to the teachings of the Christian bible to be Christian? Interesting. By that logic, does a doctor not have to practice medicine to be a doctor? A basketball player not need to know how to dribble a ball? You can simply claim something and be it, just like that? I guess I'm the pope.
That's not what I said and that's not what the No True Scotsman fallacy is.
No True Scotsman fallacy:
You made what could be called an appeal to purity as a way to dismiss relevant criticisms or flaws of your argument.
In this form of faulty reasoning one's belief is rendered unfalsifiable because no matter how compelling the evidence is, one simply shifts the goalposts so that it wouldn't apply to a supposedly 'true' example. This kind of post-rationalization is a way of avoiding valid criticisms of one's argument.
Example: Angus declares that Scotsmen do not put sugar on their porridge, to which Lachlan points out that he is a Scotsman and puts sugar on his porridge. Furious, like a true Scot, Angus yells that no true Scotsman sugars his porridge.
Can you provide the shifting of the goal post in my single response? Did you offer any evidence to dispute it? Can you explain how my reasoning is faulty?
I understand what the no true scotsman fallacy is. I simply don't see how it applies. I don't see where I did any of the things you think I did. Also, there's a fundamental difference in example you gave. A Scotsman is not a behavior or a teaching. It is innate. It is inherited in your genes, part of your genetic make up or dictated by your nationality. Christianity is neither. It is a specific set of a teachings and practices, written down in a book. More akin to my example of a doctor.
well i've faced some discrimination at the church after school sports club. i decided its there problem to deal with not mine. i ended up being friends with one of the culprits there. i still get that from a guy there who's older like in his 30"s. i've never asked whats up with that but i'm thinking it might be something Christians can go through. meaning a Holly-er Than You kinda thing
there's no such thing as a true christian.
Anyone who thinks they are a true christian is probably a self worshiping hypocrite and is dangerous to say the least.
Look up the word "cult" in the dictionary
now look up the word "religion"
notice anything?
they are both the same
your welcome
It depends on what you mean by ‘True Christian’. I mean it could just be a No True Scotsman fallacy, where you exclude any person from being a true christian if they did something you didn’t think should count. If true Christian meant adherence to the principles in the Bible, which one.
I agree that to some degree the no true scotsman fallacy is correct. But to some degree its wrong. Its correct in terms of an uneducated persons view of the group membership. Ie all these people are muslims and some muslims claim to kill people because they are muslim so therefore muslims want to kill people. However on a closer inspection there are specific groups of muslims with different beliefs and they dont call each other muslims mostly at all. The same thing with Christians. There are the progressive Christian's who do not believe in the Bible and there are traditional Christians who do believe in the Bible. As a traditional Christian in my opinion i have nothing in common with a progressive Christian. If they say yes i say no. Its that night and day different. From my perspective they are basically atheists or satanists. According to the Bible, which i believe is an absolute requirement to be Christian, im not even allowed to associate with a progressive Christian yet i am allowed to associate with an atheist. So this is where i say the no true scotsman fallacy is flawed. Sometimes there are fakers and sometimes there are lots of fakers. It doesn't mean they are the same thing. Progressive Christians share many beliefs with atheists and essentially no beliefs with traditional Christians. Literally the only thing they share is they use similar religion specific words. Thats it.
@bamesjond0069 I mean at the heart of the fallacy, you need a specific definition of ‘True Christian’, otherwise the assertion can be modified.
So if a Traditional Christian is defined as one who believes in the bible, what does that mean? Everything inside of it? Which translation (because they do vary)? Certain parts of it? Which one?
You could end up with a redundant statement. If True Christian is defined to be the one that believes a particular part of the Bible (if there’s some part that says discrimination is wrong), then that’s redundant.
"So if a Traditional Christian is defined as one who believes in the bible, what does that mean? Everything inside of it? Which translation (because they do vary)? Certain parts of it? Which one?"
There is not nearly as much variety in versions nor are the parts that are in dispute key to any core beliefs. For example if it says dont steal in 10 places in one version and 11 places in another, it really doesn't change much in terms of clarity of what the Christian stance is on stealing.
Dicrimination means "treating someone worse, because he or she is different". So no - Christianity teaches we should not discriminate others.
Catechism of a Catholic Church says: "The neighbor is not a "unit" in the human collective; he is "someone" who by his known origins deserves particular attention and respect."
As a Christian we are not to pass judgement, that’s Jesus job. We can disagree and make different choices but are called to help all the seek it. I may not be gay or liberal (not that they are evil just a example) but I would give them a helping hand if they asked.
You would think. It all comes down to interpretation of religious text. Those lovely little fabricated loopholes that seemingly grant permission to the evil doer.
There are no true Christians, I can say nay judge Christians by the behavior of those who call themselves Christians. Many aren’t very nice. My secular friends are more tolerant.
The crusades, Spanish inquisition, European and American witch trials, the troubles in northern Ireland, countless wars etc ali carried out by those claiming to be true Christians.
Highly disagree, there is no command to love the foreigner (nokrim), there is only a command to love the sojourner and those who respect Israel when they stayed there. If anything, there are verses that warn against the dangers of foreign migration and conquest, and it is crucial to protect Israel's independence and ethnic/religious stability.
Verses such as Deuteronomy 28: 43-44 for example. You are not supposed to let anyone who sins or violates God's wishes reside among else, lest he punish you all. You HAVE to discriminate.
Nobody should discriminate, in any religion. Even Christian-on-Christian discrimination exists. I was born Catholic and I believe this branch of Christianity is the most prejudice of all Christians.
Who has burnt more people at the stake….
Can Gay people get cakes made or just people?
Fair points.
@Msputiton nope not at all.
There is good and bad everywhere.
Look at racism in the US and religion..
I can handle their excuse and homosexuality, however where does it say hate people because of their skin colour?
It doesn't but the same logic goes to defending against racist thoughts.
Do we have corrupted people and leaders in our religion does that mean it is ok to openly bash us as if the religion itself is about punishing people.
The racists and bigots of our religion try to twist words in the bible that fit their agenda.
We as a whole do not think this way.
All I'm sayin here is just like it is wrong to judge others, same applies here, and make it seem as if it was Christians in general who did this.
Instead of realizing it was the corrupted ones who did wrong.
Most Christians i know act and feel like i do. The loud know it all mean hearted ones are the ones screaming about hate for the world to see.
@Msputiton oh I know, I am actually a Christian.
However I am able to point out the hypocrisy of it all
@Msputiton oh I know, I’m being very generalising
It is down unfortunately to society, the church denomination at times and other stuff
Sadly, "Christians" are the most hateful people on Earth. :(
January 6th proved they ignore the Golden Rule.
QAnon isn't a Christian movement. A few mentally ill Christians might be associated with it, but that is a matter for the courts.
I would argue islam is the most hateful by far! But yes Christianity is no saint but at least you don't have to worry about suicide bombers or getting your head cut off for now anyways lol
A true Christian follows the teachings of Christ. However a true Christian also believes in objective morality and in extreme cases sometimes people need to be reminded of what they're doing maybe immoral but that's just my opinion
there's no "true christian". everyone who uses that word combination just says their individual opinion. of course everyone is entiteled to their own opinion. i'm not bashing anyone for having an opinion but don't sell your opinoon as objective fact.
Disagree. I’ve known plenty of religious people who discriminate like crazy.
If they truly follow what they preach they won't discriminate
Have meet too many self professed True Christians to believe that don't or do anything that everyone else does and still call themselves Christians.
MM while I believe it is true that all christians are accepting of everyone, i do however think that at the end of the day you can accepted does not mean they have to be liked
We're here to tell people about Jesus. And tell the truth of his word.
Not to force people to live it too.
They gotta choose
Some of the most upright unchristin people would never do things some ,, Christians,, would
It sounds good, but how are the Crusades rationalized... obvious discrimination by Christians (authorized by the Pope) against Arabs and Muslims?
Anyone who respects other religion is the best devotee of god.
What about a religion that doesn't respect other religions and or beliefs?
@Apulu_3 i know but religion has a tendency to tell people what to do and what to believe and some religions make people very intolerant of other religions and beliefs. But i do agree that we should have no tolerance to intolerance lol
@Apulu_3 what do you think of Hitler and Nazism? That was very close to being a religion and you can say that even some people worshiped Hitler...
I mean what do you think of Nazism?
Interesting answer... But you do realize that if you made some nice Nazi friends in Germany during world war 2 they would turn you in and send you off to a concentration camp right?
How would you know? If they claim to be Nazi that means they believe the Aryan race is superior and all other races are a disease plaguing humanity right? So if they publicly say they are Nazi then they don't feel shame for everyone to know so how can you trust them? Maybe they are lying to get you to trust them so they can turn you and your family in!
But to be a Nazi you have to at least believe that you and the Aryan race is better than every other race. If you dont believe that than you are not a Nazi right?
Not you specifically silly lol 😂 i mean in general to be a Nazi you have to believe the Aryan race is the true race
But thats what Nazis believe. They believe the Aryan race is the superior true race and all other races are a disease and should be wiped out
@Apulu_3 yea Nazism is very extreme belief/religion and a very dangerous one too! They brainwashed many Germans to become Nazis
@Apulu_3 thats good you don't! Nobody should respect Nazism its very dangerous! I can tell you are a smart girl and eventually you will understand my example even if you are very young 😊
Wait so you still respect Nazis even after everything i told you?
@Apulu_3 you can't be Nazi by blood lol 😂 its a choice and a belief maybe Nazi can brainwash their children because they are so young and did not learn other things but you can still educate those children so they dont stay Nazi
@Apulu_3 no sweetheart you are not stupid i can tell you have good intentions and a gentle heart but are just young and not educated in these things but they should teach you about World War 2 and the Holocaust in higher grade where Nazis killed about 11 million Jews and other races
I disagree. I'm sure they discriminate against luciferians, members of the church of satan, and any sort of "devil cult", especially any that still practices human sacrifice. So would I.
Today religion is becoming something so subjective that it doesn't really matter anymore. Any self-proclaimed Christian make up their doctrines however they see fit.
Strongly agree.
Only the lord can place judgement on others sins
But the "lord" made all the sinners in his image? Shouldn't he/she/it throw itself into hell?
I'm not a christian, so I wouldn't presume to tell Christians what a "true" Christian is.
Disagree, because to discriminate is the same as being discerning, and in order to be a Christian in the first place there are certain things that a person must believe and must do.
No. religion is one of the biggest basis for discrimination.
As a roman Catholic I never ran into that issue... yet
One who follows the teachings of the Christ, (Messiah), can't discriminate. If we did we would not be a true follower.
Any moral system requires discrimination on moral grounds.
Jesus didn't walk with the wicked to treat them like the just, but to change them.
Well, at least according to the text.
I hate to break this to you but Heaven Hell = Discrimination lol 😂
Not really, in this scenario your implying man send people there. It is a cornerstone to Christan that Jesus passes the judgment. It is more like right and wrong for us. Is it right to sleep around and cheat on each other, no. Can we turn away someone that is a cheater asking for help, no. Forgiveness is always an option if you are ready to stop sinning.
Judgment=Discrimination 🤦
Again we are still not talk about men. It's not discrimination if you know all it's now called justice. Think of it like this, is it discrimination if you steal and are put in jail? Jesus knows all, he puts souls in jail based on facts.
Also your implying that a law braker is being discriminated against. Lol that's just funny.
Of course criminals are discriminated against? Ha you been living under a rock or something? Lmfao 😂
That includes discrimination against LGBTQ+ individuals. Christmas are called to love, not judge.
Do you think refusing to use someone's 'preferred pronoun' is discrimination?
@OneManOnly01 if I called you she/her even though you don’t identify as a female would you feel discriminated against?
Discrimination is defined as the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
I AM a biological male. I want to be called who I really am. If you ask people to call you he/her, that would be wrong because you're a biological woman so you must be referred to as she/her
@OneManOnly01 so you would or wouldn’t feel discriminated against if someone refused to use your perfected pronouns?
I would feel discriminated if you refer to me with the WRONG pronoun. Just assume a biological female friend of yours WANTS to be called he/him, I will NOT call her he/him because she is a female. And if someone calls her a he/him, I also think that is wrong and disrespectful.
@OneManOnly01so according to you, using anything other than the preferred pronoun is disrespectful. That’s doesn’t really answer the question of weather or not it’s discriminatory does it?
@Subarugirl No! I'm saying preferred pronouns are WRONG. You should use ACTUAL pronouns. I don't think you read that carefully
@OneManOnly01 Oh I read what you said but it sounded a whole lot like I don like being misidentified. You said using preferred preferred pronouns is wrong, so using he/him to address you is wrong? So you don't prefer he/him as your pronouns?
There is a difference between preferred pronouns and actual pronouns. What I am saying is that you have to use ACTUAL pronouns NOT preferred pronouns.
Do you understand now? You need to use my actual pronoun, the real one that's associated with my sex
@OneManOnly01 Have to according to who? And how would you know if my preferred pronoun aligned with my genitalia... you gonna start checking peoples genitals to make sure?
So you would assume their gender by their looks and then use the pronoun associated with it, right? That's what you're saying?
Then would you call anyone 'xey/xem'? Because many people prefer to be called xey/xem
@OneManOnly01 I would respect a persons preferred pronouns because I am not an asshole
Whoa, why are you getting mad? We don't really need to fight over it, you could still be friendly in a debate
@Subarugirl Let's just stay friendly and not make this into a personal quarrel
@OneManOnly01 lol oh honey I'm not mad, but it is really difficult to have a civil conversation with you when you are acting so emotional. Why don't you take some time to calm down so that you are able to approach the topic logically.
@Subarugirl Here's the thing, you didn't answer the question I asked. You said you use people's pronouns based on their looks.
Now some of them prefer xe/xem, now you tell me which person in the world 'looks' xe/xem?
@OneManOnly01 No, I said respect people's pronouns based off of how they identify. Maybe if you calmed down and stop reacting so emotionally and you would have picked up on that
@Subarugirl You don't really have an answer to my casual question😂 You're pretending to be unable to understand what I said.
It doesn't matter what pronoun someone wants. You're a female, I'll call you a she. Do you think you can become a male at will?
@OneManOnly01 do you know that? How do you know what genitalia or chromosomes I have. Why don't you take some time to calm down so that you are able to approach the topic logically.
Yes I do know that. I know that you are a biological female because your looks are enough to tell me that you are.
And if in case you are indeed a biological male but I call you a she then I'm obviously wrong but your pronoun should still be the one that actually belongs to you.
Now here's the thing, you don't have to repeat that same phrase over and over of being calm. That makes me think you're getting bitter over a simple conflict of opinions. I think you make some great points and I and many people here agree with many of your opinions so don't diminish that.
@OneManOnly01 you could've just admitted you don't have the slightest clue what the difference is between biological sex and gender (a social construct). Would've saved yourself a lot of time and looking like an asss.
@nachosaresexy You're saying that gender and sex are completely unrelated?
And what's wrong with you people? Can't you talk like an adult rather than name calling people and showing how bright you are?
@OneManOnly01 even doctors respect preferred pronouns… get off your high horse
@Subarugirl First of all, it's not respect or disrespect. It's about either lying to help them keep their ego or telling them the bitter truth.
And second, no they don't, Ben Shapiro's wife doesn't either and she's a doctor
@OneManOnly01 uh yeah… if I started referring to you as she, you’d probably find it disrespectful. I’ve decided that you’re acting like a girl, even though you identify as a boy, I’m going to call you a girl because I think that fits better.
There you just said it yourself. You said you'll call a guy 'she' just because he's acting like a girl.
THAT is what is wrong with preferred pronouns, you can't change anyone's pronoun based on what they look like or act like, it's simply defined at birth according to their sex unless they are intersex
@OneManOnly01 it was an example, sex and gender aren’t the same thing, obviously you just don’t have the capacity to understand that
And it was a terrible one too. Also you're so offended now that you're talking about mental capacity lol. I think you're getting pissed off now, aren't you?
@Subarugirl Another thing that you may or may not have the capacity to understand (I am not as wise as you so I can't predict someone's mental capacity over the internet) is that I'm not talking about gender here. I'm talking about pronouns, pronouns should be based off of a person's sec
@OneManOnly01 but the aren't, the only people who think that are bigots…. that is like refusing to use a person's nick name because that's not the name assigned to them at birth...
it's weird how obsessed you are with other peoples genitalia, what are you gonna do? Go around and double check and make sure the sex organs of everyone you meet matches their pronouns... ?
@Subarugirl Every human is obsessed with someone's genitalia unless they are asexual.
Now, the nick name is assigned by your parents, sex is assigned by chromosomes, once again a terrible comparison.
And for the second question, already answered that before but you keep repeating the same over and over but I'll let you in on it once again.
So listen, in almost all cases, you can determine their sex by their looks and even if in any case you assumed wrong, then that's wrong on your part, just because YOU assumed the wrong pronoun doesn't mean the pronoun should be changed for that.
If I ask you a question and you give a wrong answer, then that answer is wrong, you can't change the wrong answer into right answer just because you've got no idea what the correct answer is.
@OneManOnly01 actually nick names are preference…
@OneManOnly01 what does it matter to you if someone wants to go by a certain pronoun, it doesn’t effect you
Exactly you said it yourself once again, you can prefer what nick name you want but you can't do the same with your pronoun.
Let me make this clear if it isn't yet, I wouldn't go out of way just to correct someone's pronouns but I once saw a question on THIS very website of a guy who was fooled by a trans 'woman'. It's kinda funny but 'she' talked to him for very long as he assumed he was actually a woman but then later when they met in person, he told the guy that he 'transitioned' into a woman.
This may not have been something serious but many times there can be some really serious mishaps just because of trans people spreading lies because of their 'preferred pronouns'
@Subarugirl You got quite a few dislikes
@OneManOnly01 people love to hate… which is surprising for Christians since the point of the New Testament is about loving people
@Subarugirl Yeah I agree, you shouldn't dislike people's opinions just because they're wrong, you should rather discuss and calmly explain to them why they're wrong. I won't add to those dislikes.
@OneManOnly01 No one is mad at you (i don't think?). We're just trying to help you break through your own ignorance. it's cool you were born with a little penis, and your gender identity turned out as male. There's lots of humans born with a vagina who end up identifying as female. That's the most common. Kinda like how it's similarly common for people to be born right handed.
But then there are some people who are born non-binary.
(long pause so your brain doesn't exploded)
But yep, it happens.
So which pronouns would a badass like you tell that person to use?
... regardless of your thoughts on how to deal with your fellow humans who are born non-binary (maybe you shouldn't even bother trying to formulate a big-boy opinion on that one), the simple scientific fact remains that biological sex (schlong vs. vaj) and gender identity (he/she) are distinct. The fact that those distinct things overlap at about the same rate as people being born right-handed vs. left-handed, and your special upbringing and lack of education has a hard time understanding it, doesn't change any of these basic facts.
@nachosaresexy Did your mom teach you to talk like an asshole? Or are you just trying to appear tough while a woman is watching?
@nachosaresexy Also why are you acting like someone just shoved a crowbar up your ass? Did someone?😁
And I also noticed you are jealous of men having dicks. Why is that? Is it because you have a rubber dick?
Well not that I care what you have or don't have but you should go talk to your mom and ask her to teach you some manners.
@OneManOnly01 well that is rich coming from you, talking about manners. The hypocrisy.
@Subarugirl Yep. A rabid dog needs to be put down
@Subarugirl Why'd you suddenly disappear when we were discussing about the dislikes you got😂
@nachosaresexy And here's another thing. THIS IS IMPORTANT!! You are preaching about the difference between gender and sex, right?
Now I'll educate you a bit, so listen you clueless clown😂 (you've lost your chance for a polite conversation)
You said this. I quote - "your gender identity turned out as male".
You are stupid enough to say that male and female are gender identities. NO you clueless moron, male and female are sexes NOT genders like you said.
If you're so stupid that you just said this then why do you expect anyone to take you seriously over your preachings about the difference between sex and gender?
You just proved that you have absolutely no idea what the difference between sex and gender is because your brain is filled with donkey crap instead of neurons.
So unless you want to further crap on yourself with your own words, I'll advise you to tuck your tail and run away.😂
@OneManOnly01 you gonna just dismiss something that the medical community has already established... you're 18 years old and entitled to you opinion, but that doesn't make you wright it just makes you a rude jerk, prejudice against something that doesn't really effect you. Didn't your mom teach you any manners, or empathy?
@Subarugirl What has the medical community established? That male and female are not sexes? Just tell me. Are male and female sexes or not? Answer this question first before you say anything else.
As for the manners, I can certainly say that your mom did not teach you any.
I gave you multiple chances of being polite and I was doing my best to keep this conversation a polite discussion but you kept acting like a toxic jerk, you turned this into a verbal fight. You don't even have the basic manners of interacting with people. Do you seriously expect people to learn manners and empathy from you given your toxic behaviour?
@OneManOnly01 it would take some intelligence to understand the difference between sex and gender. I can explain it of you would like
@Subarugirl Answer the question first and then you can explain and I'll listen. That is only fair.
Also, I'll ask you this again. Please stop the one upping so we can have a proper discussion rather than just taking jabs at each other
@OneManOnly01 You said this. I quote - "your gender identity turned out as male".
I could've written it this way, without changing anything whatsoever with the point you continue to miss: "... gender identity turned out as male (-identifying)" ... but that would have been redundant since I used the 'term' identity in the same sentence.
So, yeah, I happen to identify as male. As already mentioned, the male vs. female gender identity thing is a social construct, different than biological sex (the junk between each our legs). And like I said the other day, some are literally born non-binary down there, so you still haven't addressed how your rant would apply to them. How would you frame your lecture on this topic to those individuals?
Anyway, given that I identify as male, my preferred pronouns are he/him. That happens to align with my junk, which is the most common alignment. It doesn't make those who align differently "weird" or whatever other label you want to put on it. Here's one more example your big-boy brain might be able to process: <2% of the population is born with naturally red hair. Biology is a pretty strange & fascinating thing, and having a basic understanding of both biology and statistics comes in handy when trying to understand stuff like this.
@nachosaresexy You are denying the fact that male and female are sexes? Then this conversation is over, I'd prefer to talk to someone intelligent because you haven't even got the basics right yet
@OneManOnly01
"You are denying the fact that male and female are sexes?"
Correct. Biological sex (the junk between our legs) is different than gender (how someone identifies, based on social construct).
Your overly simplistic thinking is understandable, as the vast majority of those who have a schlong do identify as male & those with a vajayjay as female. But not all... somewhere around 1% but something like that is impossible to measure with high level of accuracy given the social stigma and overall ignorance that surrounds the topic... in other words, it's gonna be understated. Kinda like how LGBT %s have consistently increased as America has become less homophobic as a whole.
In any case, statistically speaking, the % of trans individuals is on par with % of individuals who are born as natural red-heads. It's different... it's unique... but there's nothing "wrong" with it other than ignorant folks who can't wrap their simple minds around it.
@nachosaresexy You stupid fool, you are denying science. Your chromosomes decide whether you are a male or a female and that decides what pronoun should be used for you.
@nachosaresexy Just answer one simple question, do your chromosomes decide whether you are a male or a female or not? Yes or No?
@nachosaresexy And YOU SAID, the term male is a gender identity. Now answer this important question, is male a gender or a sex?
@OneManOnly01 X/Y chromosomes determine biological sex, which then gets labeled as male or female. For most, their biological sex aligns with their gender identity. For those whose gender identity does not align with their physical junk, it's no more of a choice than whether they were born with red hair. It's a unique phenomenon that does fit neatly into traditional society, but like lots of other arbitrary social constructs before it, the 'trans' stigma will gradually fade away as knowledge eventually overtakes ignorance.
bruh ur getting hung up on words/labels and missing the forest for the trees.
@nachosaresexy Stop speaking gibberish. Now listen to me, my preferred pronouns are tiger/lion/jaguar. If you don't refer to me by that, I will kick your ass
@OneManOnly01 I think you need to revisit sexual education...
@Subarugirl Shut up boomer and refer to me by Tiger/Lion/Jaguar. Respect pronouns
@OneManOnly01 you realize that we are both GenZ right?
@OneManOnly01 or did you miss that part of school too?
Will you refer to me by Tiger/Lion/Jaguar or will you disrespect my preferred pronouns?
@Subarugirl Will you refer to me by Tiger/Lion/Jaguar or not?
Strongly Agree a True Christian should not discriminate against anyone
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