Isn’t it child abuse to force your kid into your religion?

[OddBeMe]

Amish or FLDS are the extreme, especially for girls.

Yes it is

Ehh, nah

No certainly not

[Rosexøxø]

Mmm I suppose so. At the same time if it’s a part of some discipline, I do suppose you can tell them they, as with everything else, such as career and the whole identity package- that they can just pick what they want to believe and do when they’re of a reasonable age- be it 18 or 21/22. You have to give kids some substance I feel. At least discipline and if that includes good morals then 🤷‍♀️ I don’t see why not. If it’s telling them what to believe about death or being good then it’s arguable. I’d say they should believe what they want, but you can CERTAINLY share what you believe to be true, so they can see the option and decide for themselves if that’s what they’d believe or want to believe then or later on.

At the same time, one could simply let their child choose everything earlier on and the only rule to be to choose safety or precaution and then some basic rule following for society as well as finally fair treatment towards others.

Its a 50/50 situation.

I suppose if we ask ourselves and think about it earlier on-

Yes, we want our kids to have knowledge and have a sense of identity we don’t want them to feel as if they have none or question it, but we can’t force them to just take any because of this, we instead have to let them choose their own, just as we choose our own. We don’t always know ourselves or who we are throughout life. Or who we want to be. So why would we force them to have something just to say they have something or a sense of security? It’s false security. It can lead to dissatisfaction with self and take a longer time to figure out what they truly feel is right for them. What you may choose for them could be complete 180° in the opposite direction of the thing and person they wish to be and embody.

SO

with that being said…..

my conclusion would be a balance of both. Discipline is good. Letting your kid KNOW you love them and will be a part of their life is also good. Showing them options is also good. If religion as with Christianity is taught to them in a way of morals parables fables and such as a sort of guideline- then yes, they can be taught that, but if it’s forced and telling them WHO to be and who to be to others or WHAT to believe as some demand with punishment and repercussions and lengthy limitations then… I’d say that is wrong. So religion isn’t necessarily bad in all aspects. A-Z. 1-100. But forcing it on a child and using it as a tool of keeping them behaved or who to be is definitely wrong. I can agree about that.

[Rosexøxø]

If the religion practices actually incorporated verbal and physical abuse then yes it’s be abuse. If it excludes those and is a method of how a parent teaches their kid, then ‘NO,’ it’s not abuse.

And this is all my perspective and stance on the matter of the question.

[Rosexøxø]

Couldn’t vote because it depends naturally. Not all religions are the same and not all are taught in the same manner.

[OddBeMe]

Firstly well said.

I would say if religion is the only -or any- reason to be good, you’ve raised a shit kid. lol

[Rosexøxø]

Depends on how it’s looked at for sure. When you see religion as a relationship with higher deity- doing good as complimentary consequence or because of directly- just makes sense. It being the only way could really just mean it being the only way of true/great worth. To those who believe- spirituality and religion is irreplaceable and not capable of being matched by simple human judgement or efforts towards decency, but the efforts are still always appreciated by certain members of those certain groups.

But I’d really like to agree. For me it’s a 50/50 either for the worst or the best. And thanks for mho! 😁👍💯

[northerngal]

You know i could not answer this. Good question. It has made me think. I would say from today's standards it is not. But if the religion is abusive to the childern and filled with hatred for others it probably crosses that line. Parents have stopped doctors administering life saving medication in the name of religion... so my answer is "it depends"

[Rosexøxø]

I fell like you summarized the point I was trying to drive in my response really well. Grateful for it. 💯

[OddBeMe]

Yeah. Most things are subjective. Society passes laws on a consensus of subjective opinions.

Killing or severely beating your kids are child abuse. But short of “severely beating” could be legal.

[PavlovsCogk]

Child abuse is a social construct ﾠ

[DrPepper12]

I'm pretty sure it's real, definable and illegal. Parents aren't the only ones who get a say in how a child is raised whether you like and accept that or not

[Alwayreckles93]

You forgot to mention catholics. And yes it is child abuse. I was forced to attend disgusting catholic school a nun punch me in the face. I report it and no one believe. I was label as atrouble child. I said once I turn I left a decade ago and I do not regret my choice. Catholic church choudl he shut down. A lot of child abusehappens. .

[OddBeMe]

For sure. The Vatican should liquidated and its assets divided amongst all its abuse victims.

[Alwayreckles93]

You are absolutely right Sir. My goodness have you seen the documentaries about nuns and children being abuse? I is scary. It's all a scam I stop and lost my faith in religion. I think humans invented religion to control people especially catholic. If pope Francis says jump of a window you will goto heaven people will believe it.

[OddBeMe]

I really don’t understand it, and my wife and her family are Catholic. They just avoid the topic of abuse.

[Alwayreckles93]

OddBeMe Yeah , All catholic people are so brain wash. Normal people showed them proved and the horrific incidents that happened in catholic world some will get offend or shut it under the rug. Something needs to be done about this. People are just so gullible. Catholics oh look virgin Mary aparations lol I just laugh these catholic people need would be great at writing movies at Hollywood way to much imagination lol

[OddBeMe]

They don’t go to church as much…which I think is my doing.

But yes religions start with people believing without evidence and most often against evidence. Thus not surprised they keep doing that.

[sawno]

No, I wouldn't go that far especially how common it is and how non damaging it can be. My parents put me on a Christian school for example, all that ever changed in my life was that we got to relax while the bible was being read the first hour. It didn't form my beliefs, my parents didn't force that belief on me once I figured that it didn't make enough sense for me to believe it.

Did they "force" their religion on me? In a way you could argue yes due to the school thing. But simultaneously I wasn't obligated to stick to that faith once I was old enough to think for myself.

Is it abuse when your forcing someone to belief something against their will? That I can argue would fall under that, but it still depends on how heavily it impacts the child. Like how severe are the punishments for not believing for example? I think you'd make an abuse case based on the consequences not on the practise.

[OddBeMe]

That’s the ultimate question, I guess. Whether we talk religious upbringing or “lgbt agendas”. How much do kids absorb their beliefs.

Studies are pretty set on parents tbh. Not sure a religious ban would affect it too much. Children are biologically wired to mimic their parents as children,

[Phoenix98]

Given that I've spent a lot of time with the Amish because one of our plants is right next to their area/community and it's a actual lifestyle religion is just part of it.

Also the Amish do give their kids a chance to go out and explore what life is like in the outside world and give them the choice to either come back and continue living with the community or go their own way and live in our world. So they do get that choice once they reach a certain age I think it's 18, just saying.

I spent a lot of time around them over the last 10 or so years and I just wanna say I've never really seen any unhappy or jaded Amish people they seem pretty content with life.

A lot of them own their own business's to auction houses, farms, hardware stores, grocery stores, etc.

[DrPepper12]

They let girls go sow their oats too? I thought only very liberal Mennonites do that

[Phoenix98]

@DrPepper12 I don't know about that part I've never asked and ain't going to but I do the rumspringa is a thing in some communities. And even Amish kids do stuff like we do like one Amish guy that used to work with us his kid threw a party over the weekend when his folks weren't home.

Some things regardless of culture never change.

[DrPepper12]

LMFAO!! TY I needed a good laugh!!

[Phoenix98]

@DrPepper12 No problem.

[jshm2]

You can't force religion, dumbass. The Christians tried it with the Inquisition and the Americans (always got to be the fucking Americans) tried it with their "prohibition".

The more you force something unjust, the more the opposition.

[OddBeMe]

Checking with parents… nope you can apparentky

[strateguy632]

at first glance it seems meaner to ridicule a kid for praying to jesus or for believeing in santa claus.
or calling a kid delusional if they believe in god.
but really we punish kids for everything that we expect: chores that they do not wanna do and homework so going to church is like not doing homework , punish if they argue about it or dont wanna go.

[TacosRAwesome]

No. However the practices of said religion might be considered abusive. Eg if you don't allow your kids to socialise with normies.

[TeraGER]

I think you are abusive

[OddBeMe]

All of gag is abusive. Why else are we here?

[DrPepper12]

Knowingly telling them lies as children they wouldn't accept as adults? Very definition of child abuse.

Religion is a scam for the weak minded.

[pinconon]

no unless it's physically forced which is hardly the case

[OddBeMe]

How else is it? Of course it’s physically forced.

[pinconon]

no it's not physically forced. you don't know what you're talking about

[OddBeMe]

Parents tell their kids what to do. What would you call that?

[pinconon]

it's called proper parenting. if it's not parents, then it's teachers and cops who'll tell kids what to do

[OddBeMe]

Sure but it’s physical yeah?

[pinconon]

wdym by physical? like assault?

[OddBeMe]

No. Physics, as in action reaction, newtons laws.

Thats my point. We dont critique parents enough for forcing religion or in some states child marriage.

Funny how the same people think only guns don’t kill people but books can turn you gay.

[pinconon]

parents get critiqued all the time if their child becomes anti-social. I'm not American so I don't know anything about what states force such things.

[pergamon300]

If it's ok go liberals to shove atheism and LGBT down the throats of their kids, and others, then I guess it's ok for religious people to bring up their kids with religion.

[DrPepper12]

Neither is healthy or acceptable

[pergamon300]

@DrPepper12 if you don't bring up your kids with your own dogma and morals, others will do it for you, with their own.

[DrPepper12]

I have. I have taught them atheism with a VERY thorough education and fundamental appreciation for the literature, art, sculpture, ritual, music, architecture, dogma, sects, etc of all major and historically defunct religions (cult of isis, Manichaeism, gnostics, Zoroastrianism (Parsi) ,100 schools of warring states China, atkhenaten heresy, Mormonism and scientology to name a few).

[dolemite58]

Absolutely, filling children’s heads with that nonsense before they’re old enough to have critical thinking skills is just wrong.

[OddBeMe]

This

[HelpfulWoman]

if a kid can't be mature enough to get a sex change, they are not mature enough to also "decide" on a religion to follow.
(I believe both should not be for children to do)

[OddBeMe]

Sure. And kids can’t get sex changes. Just hormone pills from their doctor.

[Juxtapose]

Which is chemical castration and mutilation.

[DrPepper12]

I support that. When they reach the age of majority they can choose which religion to follow either Star Trek or Star Wars...

[Rosexøxø]

@DrPepper12 yes I agree on that

[OddBeMe]

@Juxtapose and kids can stop taking the pills any time. So not castration.

[DrPepper12]

@Rosexøxø levity goes a LOOOONNNNGGG way on gag!

[RedInnocent69]

Exactly. They don’t seem to get it any other way.

[OddBeMe]

That’s a good thing.

[BaronVonBarron]

Doing something you believe is good for a child is not abuse. Is teaching child math abusive? How about good manners? Perhaps he will want to have bad manners?

[DrPepper12]

But the phrase "something you believe" is doing A LOT of heavy lifting there!!

[RainbowMarinade]

@BaronVonBarron
“Doing something you believe is good for a child is not abuse.” Like refusing medical intervention for a dying child?

[BaronVonBarron]

@RainbowMarinade read the original question again

[RainbowMarinade]

@BaronVonBarron
I’m well aware what the question is. You replied “Doing something you believe is good for a child is not abuse.”
People deny their children medical help because it’s against their religion. They believe they are doing the right thing.
Would you classify that as abusive?
I would

[BaronVonBarron]

@RainbowMarinade The question was about implementing religion in a child. You picked some extreme harmful case and pretend that this is the core of any religion. Vast majority of humans do have some religion and they dont harm their children in the name of it. Also, people who believe in God live longer and may have better mental health according to studies. Making someone live longer and in better health is not abusive.

[OddBeMe]

I remember the true crime case of over punishing children enough to kill them.

Pretty sure that’s child abuse considered by the parents “good for them”

[DrPepper12]

The exception proves the rule... You're right about the studies, religious people are healthier on avg but wrong about most having a religion. The fastest growing group GLOBALLY is the "nones" no religion at all

[BaronVonBarron]

@DrPepper12 your belief in who is right or wrong is sweet. There is no scientific or mathematical evidence for existence or non existence of God. There are however clues. Lets assume religion evolved. If yes, it did for a purpose - it is usefull. I dont care whether other people stop believing or not, same as I dont control whether they do drugs. In a liberal society it is not my business. The question was about about our children.

[OddBeMe]

@BaronVonBarron There’s logical proof of “no proof” of any god

[BaronVonBarron]

Yes, so what? Its different than proof of non existence. Besides we would need first to establish a definition of a God before we try to prove his existence. If your definition is "a creature within our world, just hidden", then yes, it does not exist. Also, religious people use word 'belief. Its a choice to make an assumption that God exists. You dont have to make that assumption. I am just saying you have no logical or scientific argument to prevent other people from making that assumption.

[OddBeMe]

So you beleive in everything that’s proven not to exist? Hows the hunt for lochness going?

[DrPepper12]

people are free to deluded themselves. Athiests support their right to do so but wish they wouldn't. Also Baysean probably is as close to your gonna get to proof of no God. It's scientific and logical despite your assertions

[BaronVonBarron]

@DrPepper12 You dont know how to spell Bayes, dont believe you know anything about theory of probability. You are just another guy, who thinks that atheism transforms him into scientist. Bayes theorem is just a mathematical instrument, not a proof for anything. Besides Bayes was a priest. If atheism was scientific there would be no serious scientists who believe in God. Although their number is smaller than in general population there are believers even among Noble prize winners in physics, like Joseph Hooton Taylor, Peter Grunberg, John Houghton, Antony Hewish and many others. Unlike you, they know science.

[BaronVonBarron]

There is no poof for non existence of God, its an atheist myth.

[OddBeMe]

@BaronVonBarron True. Does the lochness monster need proof of non existence for you not to believe?

[BaronVonBarron]

@OddBeMe There are couple differences between concept of God and imaginary animals. The lochness monster is defined as an animal, so its existence can be proved by science (biology and geography). Ofcourse there may be a tiny chance it exists or existed in the past, but it is neglectibly small chance. We as humanity dont need lochness monster concept for anything, so why would I assume it exists? we need however the concept of God to avoid many paradoxes or to explain why there is everything instead of nothing. Lochness monster does not give us purpose and meaning. It does not improve our mental health. It cannot be used as hope. Same as we need the concept of perfect sphere, which cannot be found in real world or proven to exist in a similar way to lochness monster. If you dont have enough philosophical imagination, you can view God as an abstract but practical idea.

[DrPepper12]

I see literacy is the problem. I said as close as you can get. Read it again if you can. Scientists can be theists; it's not mutually exclusive nor did I argue it was. Read it again. Lastly, Science is inherently unknowable, it's a process, not a thing. Thanks for playing though!

[OddBeMe]

@BaronVonBarron So…you beleive based on whether something is needed? You’re so egregiously beating around the bush of “begging the question”. Your conclusion is in the argument which is the dumbest fcking fallacy.

Just admit you were raised to believe in god and have no proof for it.

[BaronVonBarron]

@OddBeMe regarding being raised in somethin: this is not a valid argument. I can say the same about you: you were simply not raised in religion properly. Being raised as a hard working person does not invalidate hard work. Being raised in English speaking country does not mean you need to change your language to prove your independence.
Regarding usefullness of assumptions and beliefs: ofcourse this is good approach. As an atheist you probably know there is no objective truth. Therefore usefulness is all we got. Ofcourse you can take usuless, even harmful approaches, that give you no benefits, like atheism. In my opinion it is simply stupid and unreasonable. In reality you also probably have some benefits from atheism: it can make you feel brave and smart compared to naive believers. However this is only delusion. You dont become smarter from losing faith, you just lose something other people take benefits from.

[OddBeMe]

@BaronVonBarron Wow…just 180 degrees wrong. There is objective truth called science. Humans will never be perfect. But it’s the best method we have.

Certainly not what’s “useful”. I can point to slavery, crusades and all the mid east as examples of religion not being useful. Sure 20th century communists were atheist, but it wasn’t the cause of killing like the Crusades.

[BaronVonBarron]

@OddBeMe People kill other people because of their business, and than make justifications. Atheist leaders killed more people than religious. I dont care about the reason. Hitler, Stalin, Mao- all atheists killing millions, because of lack of religion. Religion at least says killing is bad. Crusader may be killing, but he still has moral compass that names killing as bad.
Regarding objectivity of science: you have an outdated, XIX century perspective on science. Materialists of that epoch believed that science will eventually reveal all truth. Then came the revolution of relativity and we now know, that science has constrains and uncertainty involved (Einstein, Heisenberg). There are also some assumptions (dogmas) at the fundamental level of math, which were never proven, but we use them... because they work. So no, science does not lead to truth. It does not even use this word. There is also no science based morality. Existence of objective truth is a quasi religious belief, I am sorry to tell you that sad truth, someone had to.

[OddBeMe]

Please provide evidence of that claim: Atheist leaders killed more than Christian ones. Please prove. I’ll wait.

[BaronVonBarron]

I already provided names of top 3 most deadly world leaders. They are all atheists. I am not going to do homework for you, google them if you dont know anything about history. The only leader close to them is Genghis Khan, who was religious, but not Christian. by the way, your claims about slavery coming from religion is another nonsense. It was Christianity which first proposed that all people are equal, hence liberalism appeared in Christian cultures. Slavery before christianity was common in all cultures of the world. It is not a white-christian thing as I assume you believe.

[DrPepper12]

Christians are just as culpable as those dictators. In the end all religion is fatal to thought, heart and body.

[OddBeMe]

@BaronVonBarron yet that’s a fraction of all murders ever in the world.

[Juxtapose]

You can't force a kid into a religion. As soon as I smelled bullshit, no amount of social pressure was going to stop me from easily figuring out how dumb religion is. I figured this shit out before my age turned into the double digits.

[strateguy632]

an apropriately childish decision! to group all religions in one box. but now as an adult, it is time to sift which is the correct answer.

[Juxtapose]

@strateguy632 all religions are complete bullshit with absolutely no scientific evidence to substantiate them.

[DrPepper12]

Facts 💯

[DarkLegacy]

Yes it is and all religions are guilty of child abuse and are evil.

[strateguy632]

actualy child abuse is hitting and spanking etc. so that is not related to teaching faith

[DarkLegacy]

@strateguy632 You have no idea then how children were treat in nunneries and orphanages

[DrPepper12]

This ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️

[BCRanger10]

I have yet to hear a single unbiased explanation as to how and why that is or should be so.

[Rosexøxø]

Well I’m unbiased because I owe my compassionate side to Christianity. I learned to value selflessness. It kept me out of trouble for so many years. I wouldn’t even kill flies… why take the life from them? But it’s alright. What you see is what you see.

[Aiko_E_Lara]

Yes. Just like it's child abuse to force gayness, feminism, wokeness and other sjw agendas into your kids.

[OddBeMe]

Who’s forcing gayness? Lol

[Aiko_E_Lara]

And who's forcing religion?

[OddBeMe]

Parents, religious leaders.

You think parents are forcing gayness? Pretty sure that’s a headache they’d rather avoid. lol

[Aiko_E_Lara]

Just like how you think parents are forcing religion into children, Yes parents forcing gayness into children also happens so it takes two tango.

[OddBeMe]

Or…people are just gay. Like 15% of the animal kingdom

[Aiko_E_Lara]

That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You're just trying to minimize that issue

[OddBeMe]

What “pushing gayness” be like? Are parents just wanting stylish kids with flair?

[Aiko_E_Lara]

The same principle as pushing religion to children. You can tell me how they do it and you'll have your answer.

[Aiko_E_Lara]

I guess you just can't accept the fact that it happens both ways

[John_Cobretti]

Still better than Abortion and drinking while pregnant

[genericname85]

isn't it child abuse if any parent teaches their child their individual world view?

[OddBeMe]

I’m mostly speaking of kids born into Amish or LDS fundamentalist cults or Pakistani tribes that marry off 8 yr old girls.

But here, I say a worldly view of religions and if he picks one great. But that ain’t what happens.

[genericname85]

well the thing is that it's highly discriminatory if you want to forbid only "certain" worldviews and ways of living to be taught to their children by the parents. because neither in the amish, nor in modern christian, muslim or even atheist house hold, will children have a simple ability to get away from whatever thing it is their parents chose to do with their life, cause they're stuck with them and can't get away cause their parents have to socialize them. so the problematic thing here is that with your question you're trying to play the thought police and forbid certain ways of living, which is always tricky.

and i said it like that cause i've grown up in a christian household. when i was like 18, i figured out that this christian bible thing my father is following is delusional bullshit and they were trying to indoctrinate me with it. i don't think that is "good". i think it's terrible. but like how would you wanna go about forbidding that? you would have to surveil people in thier homes to make sure they're not indoctrinating their children.

[genericname85]

so i'm saying you'd have to forbid all the faith based delusions in order not to be discriminatory, which since very many people are still religiously deluded, this will be a problem.

[msc545]

I don't think this exactly rises to the level of being child abuse, assuming that the religion in question does not also involve things that could be construed as child abuse.

[DrPepper12]

To confirm and support an obvious lie is child abuse. It also undermines parental even societal authority

[handsomelad70]

I didn't know that about the Amish, but... it seems like child abuse, but perhaps I'm wrong.

[thenerdone]

Forcing your child into atheism is infinitely worse.

[Kingofkings1992]

Yes, it is. Similar to indoctrinating your child into a sex change.

[DrPepper12]

Not quite but it is indoctrination

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

No, but I will never force religion.

[DrPepper12]

As it should be. A personal decision

[Sevenpointfive]

we found a way to agree 100% again!

[Apple1996]

It should be

[Twalli]

Religion dictates morality.

[OddBeMe]

It doesn’t. Or atheists would be lining the prison cells.

[Twalli]

You develop your own morality through your life. Religion gives it to people without the need to develop it. So at a young age, religion tells you what us right and wrong before you decide on your own.

[OddBeMe]

Religions: slavery good, rape good, girls are second class, pay the church to get into heaven

[Twalli]

Yes, which us why I don't use it to dictate my morality. I came up with my own based on what I believe. Yet, nobody has that at 5 or younger. They haven't expierenced enough. Religion lays that groundwork.

[DrPepper12]

If you need a religion to tell you right from wrong you are without empathy or a potential sociopath. Every one has a conscience and you don't need a diety for that. Athiests are often more moral tbh.

[DrPepper12]

TY!!! 💯☑️🎯

[OddBeMe]

Then what good is it?

[OddBeMe]

I think you guys flipped your position three times and landed opposition of the OP.

[Cheerguy]

Yes it is

[gorydetails]

100% not.