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The Great Abortion Debate (Page 3)
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Sorry, I love life and am against killing babies. Don't know about the rest of you.
There's no baby at the moment of legal abortion
@jacquesvol Of course there is. What you're saying is just something pro-choice advocates tell themselves to justify what they're doing. Don't call it a human and you don't feel so bad about aborting its life.
@Homey14 That's just your religion. Until
about 1820, 'quickening' was considered the beginning of life. But prolifers are more concerned with unborn life than with born life. I didn't hear Prolife protest when sanctions killend 500,000 Iraqi children. I didn't hear Prolife protest when welfare programs for children were diminished.
Prolife should rename itself to Probirth.
@jacquesvol I'm concerned about the life outside that womb just as much as I am about those inside. The difference is your first example was a case of war. Unfortunately things like that happen in war. I don't know anyone who deliberately targeted children to kill them. If you have proof of that, please let me know. In your second example, I don't protest welfare being diminished because the reality of it is there are tons more people on welfare now than there were a couple of years of ago. Even if what you're saying is true, I don't agree that welfare is the solution to that problem. That's why I don't protest it.
Pro-life means preserving life at all stages. The problem is we can't even agree on that because you don't believe that it's a life when it's in the womb.
@Homey14 "Unfortunately things like that happen in war." War is part of American foreign policy. And the result in Iraq was a genocide:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PROI_yWCHXA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbIX1CP9qr4
Albright speaks about a 'worthy' CHOICE, not about collateral war damage or so.
And we did NOT ignore it: "Iraq Sanctions Kill Children, U. N. Reports"
By BARBARA CROSSETTE
Published: December 1, 1995 in the NYT.
www.nytimes.com/.../...ll-children-un-reports.html
WHERE was Prolife then?
Many conservatives think it's no life if it's out of the womb or outside the US
How many of these unwanted babies will YOU BE adopting?
I think the abortion debate has been settled. It is legal, and it is currently more or less just used as a political strategy to get votes.
I think the abortion debate will last as exactly long as gender discrimination. There will always be a battle. Always.
With all the stuff happening in the world, in this day and age it blows my mind that people are so passionate and care so much about what in my mind is a fringe issue. Even if I was female I don't think this is a 'debate' I could ever take seriously.
abortion should be legal so you can kill child before it's born with small dick like me and suffer hell b4 death
Killing an unborn child just shouldn't be morally acceptable.
It should be legal, especially if a woman is raped.
As horrible as rape is, that's no excuse for killing a child. Prosecute the sucker who committed the rape with everything the law can provide. To take it out on the child though is an extreme reaction and actually punishes the child that's a result of the rape worse than the one who actually committed the act.
@Homey14 Nope, I disagree.
@Homey14 it is not yet a child in early pregnancy, for one.
To start with, pregnancy is a serious fucking medical condition. Let's combine the fact that you've just experienced one of the most traumatic events of your life, with the fact that you're now being pressured to allow the continued destruction of your body. You are being told that terminating the pregnancy would be "ending" the life of something that never even knew it existed. That the potential life of this embryo is more important than your sanity, than your physical and mental recovery. That you should be forced to give up control over your own body for nine agonizing months because someone else took control of it for ten minutes... And now in more ways than one, you will never ever be the same.
Let me know when you have personal experience on the subject, asshole. Rape isn't an "excuse" for a woman to have an abortion. That implies she wanted it in the first place.
@cpzpbx3 That's right, thanks for the assistance
What part do you disagree with?
@cpzpbx3 "It is not yet a child in early pregnancy, for one." For the sake of argument, I'll agree with you. Whether it be an embryo or a fetus it's still a person just at an earlier stage in life.
"To start with, pregnancy is a serious fucking medical condition" Seriously? Well if it is it's one that most women go through and come out of just fine. Did you know most women even CHOOSE to get pregnant? That's one desired medical condition!
All joking aside, when it comes to rape and a pregnancy that results from that rape, I may never be able to experience that but I still feel for those women who go through it. The trauma one must go through is without a doubt devastating. I'm all for preventing this atrocity from happening in the first place and punishing these perverts who do these things to women. Let get these women help and make their attackers pay.
My point is that two wrongs don't make a right. One life was already traumatized. Why end another that had absolutely nothing to do with it? When I use the word "excuse" what I simply mean is that pro-choice people will usually say that a woman who has been raped now has a valid reason to abort her child. I disagree with that. Just because the child is in her body does not make it her body. To say that it is her body is to deny it of its own worth and value. Tell that to every living product of a rape that their lives have no value! You tell me that I've never been in the position of a woman that's been raped but you've never been in the position of someone who's a product of rape or who's survived botched abortions ( yes they do exist). How must it feel to be them knowing how they came into this world and always knowing that people believe that based on the way they were conceived that someone else should have been able (if they chose) to kill them?
@Homey14 I am one of those women who chose to be pregnant. Unfortunately it literally almost killed me. If I am raped and become pregnant, why should I be forced to further destroy my body AND risk my life to carry a pregnancy I didn't ask for?
You can hardly compare abortion to "ending a life" in the same sense that a born child who dies loses their "life". A fetus is alive in much the same way a tree is alive--it is not sentient or self-aware and cannot feel pain. It is a potential child, but it is not yet a child. It only has slightly more potential than an egg and a sperm just before they meet. Why, then, must I give up my bodily autonomy for an additional nine months after being raped to bring a POTENTIAL life to fruition?
@Homey14 If I was aborted, guess what? I wouldn't be here to know the difference. So I'm pretty confident that I wouldn't care. There would be no "I".
On the other hand, had my mother not had an abortion three months before getting pregnant with me (she had good reasons that I won't get into), then I wouldn't exist, because the pregnancies would have overlapped. Not that I would care (because, like my potential sibling, I would not exist). I'm just pointing out that you could really stretch the "what ifs" of each individual's existence if you put your mind to it. If I hadn't quit my job, I never would have met my husband, and my kids wouldn't exist, so I'm sure they're glad I met him, too. Their potential to exist was just as fragile as an embryo in early pregnancy... especially when you consider that a majority of fertilized eggs (with their own unique DNA) never implant and are spontaneously aborted.
@cpzpbx3 "Unfortunately it literally almost killed me." I don't know the circumstances surrounding that situation but I'm genuinely sorry you had to go through that. I'm am however glad to see you survived and that we're able to have this conversation. The problem is what you're doing is taking your situation and applying it across the board. Most women DO NOT die from pregnancy. Most women's lives ARE NOT put at risk by getting pregnant. There's no evidence to back that up. That's seems more like something to justify people having an abortion.
"If I am raped and become pregnant, why should I be forced to further destroy my body AND risk my life to carry a pregnancy I didn't ask for?" Once again, that's a false argument. Women's bodies were made to carry babies. There maybe medical complications with a number of pregnancies but they do not destroy a mother's body.
@cpzpbx3 By the way, carrying the child to term is more about preserving THE LIFE (not potential life as you called it) than it is about punishing the woman. Your life didn't begin when you were born, your life began when you were in the womb. If you hadn't made it past that stage, we wouldn't be having this conversation. That WAS you. Your mother just decided that she wanted you and therefore decided you should live. If that's the standard, then that should apply to life outside the womb which we all know would be ridiculous.
And just to make myself clear, in those cases of rape and incest, I'm not saying those women should be forced to keep those children. I'm all for adoptions because I understand that those women may have a difficult time raising those children. Some do but a lot of them can't handle it. So give the child up for adoption.
@Homey14 pregnancy doesn't destroy a woman's body? Says a man who has never been and will never be pregnant. I've been pregnant SIX times, and lost four of those pregnancies. Pregnancy changes the way you think and feel, the way food tastes. You become stretched further than you thought possible. By the end, everything hurts. Everything. Your metabolism changes forever. You suddenly have you work much harder than before to stay in shape. You may or may not have stretch marks, permanent sciatic nerve damage (like me) and raised blood pressure for MONTHS after delivery.
For me personally, it was worth every second. But I was equipped to be a mother. Not all women are, and I have to understand that even though I willingly put myself through literal torture to have children like I so desperately wanted. Just because I feel how I feel, doesn't mean I should expect all women to feel that way, or to be good mothers.
@Homey14 and if the egg didn't meet the sperm, I wouldn't be here either. Ovulation is a stage of pregnancy, too. So is every period the ending of a life because you wasted an opportunity for a sperm to meet the egg? Because the egg now will not make it past that stage. If you think I'm reaching, you should realize that I'm applying the same logic you are, and only taking it a tiny step further.
If there was a burning building, with a toddler trapped on one side and a petri dish full of live, salvageable embryos on the other side... and you had time to save ONE, which do you choose?
@cpzpbx3 "Pregnancy doesn't destroy a woman's body?" No it does not. Everything you described does not sound like the destruction of a woman's body. It sounds like changes that happen as a result of being pregnant and having a baby. That's not exactly destruction. Women's bodies were designed to go through these changes and to be honest, it's something I admire because I don't know if I (or any other man) could go through that.
"I've been pregnant SIX times, and lost four of those pregnancies." For all the back and forth we've been having up and down this entire page, I still see and respect you as a person. Despite how you may view me, I still love you ma'am as a human being and let me take the opportunity to say I'm sorry for your loss. You may or may not have viewed them as lives or babies but I do and I can't help but think that those losses may have affected you in some way. I've noticed it seems you've commented on a lot of opinions on this page.
@cpzpbx3 Clearly you are as passionate about this from as pro choice position as I am from a pro life position. Why so? What causes you to see this issue the way you do and to defend your position so vigorously? I'm not trying to be smart or make a point. I truly and genuinely would like to know.
@Homey14 of course I was devastated by losing pregnancies I wanted. But I would never, ever, compare the hurt I feel to the hurt of someone who lost a born child because it isn't the same. If I walked around saying that I had four children die, people would assume I was talking about born children until I mentioned that they were miscarriages. People have actually said to me "well, you can always get pregnant again!" or "this happens a lot to women, I'm sure you're okay." People don't say those things to a woman who just lost a toddler, do they? Like it or not, there IS a difference. Yes, I wanted to be pregnant. I was upset that I kept miscarrying and no one could tell me why. I was upset that I had to have surgery to remove a dead fetus from my body. But I cannot compare that trauma to CHILD LOSS. Period. If I HAD to choose between miscarrying or losing a my six-year-old... well, I think most people would make the same choice.
True, I'm pro-life not anti-abortion.
I am a feminist and I am against abortion.
just curious to why, feminist are hardly ever against abortion, so why are you?
@oracle12c really? Because I consider it inhumane to kill a human even it is unborn and cannot have any say in this matter!
Secondly I am religious !