3 Main Reasons I Qualify as a Feminist

[newbie2015]

Emma Watson recently spoke to the UN about gender equality.

One criticism by Ron Liddle of the British Sun called her speech "worthless...whining, leftie, PC crap."

I am a traditionalist. I love traditional gender roles (though i don't impose them on others). Much like Watson, who expresses women may be strengthened by strong university experiences, It took me attending an all women's to realize most of us, even those who claim to hate them, are feminists.

1. Women should vote

When I was younger I thought being a feminist meant I'd have to protest or be militant. A woman's study professor pointed out it came down to one question. Do you think women should vote? If you say yes, then you are indeed a feminist. As simple as that. Why should women vote? Having a say is in fact one of our greatest rights on the U.S. or abroad.

2. I support reproductive rights

A huge misconception on reproductive rights is it's all about abortion. And I will not deny that NOW, the national organization of women, has successfully argued court cases to make sure women have the right to obtain an abortion.

I will say as a medical health professional in an inner city hospital, approximately 50% of abortions or D and E's given were not for choice but because the fetus was already dead upon examination. Without an abortion offered these 50% of women would have to wait 4 months with a dead baby inside them and give birth to it. But I understand abortion is more about religion and I'd rather not debate that...

However, what are your feelings on birth control in general? From the pill to the female condom? Does a woman have the right to dictate if she gets pregnant? Should abstinence be her only option?

When Margaret Sanger invented the birth control pill in 1929 she did so because she had studied that many women did not enjoy sex because of the fear of pregnancy. Her creation was so that women could enjoy sex as much according to her own words. If you believe a woman should enjoy sex as much as a man you are indeed a feminist.

3. I believe women should bake and raise babies and sew

If they choose. One of the biggest American myths is that a feminist has to be a lesbian who hates men (just fyi, I have several lesbian friends and one sister and sister in law and to my knowledge none of them hate men. They just choose not to reproduce with them). She must be in a male dominated industry. She must wear pants and no makeup. These are all lies.

Feminism is about having a choice! We can choose to bake meals from scratch every day and feed our husband and children like a Norman Rockwell painting if that is what WE want. Or...we can get a job and support ourselves. We aren't forced nor are we slaves. Which is one reason why NOW is pne of the biggest U.S. advocates of anti violence against women.

But it is about choice. Do you like people telling you you cannot work as an electrician because you are a women? Do you like people telling you you cannot stay at home with your children and raise them? If you answered no to EITHER, you are in fact a feminist.

I know a lot of people feel strongly about this word, but hopefully this has made you consider what the word truly means, before you make a judgement about it.

[rose004b]

I like your myTake. However, I can agree with a lot of what you said and still reject the label "feminist".

"If you say yes, then you are indeed a feminist"; If you answered no to EITHER, you are in fact a feminist".

That's where I disagree with you. Feminism in is an ideology and I do not adhere to it. I don't like to be labeled as a feminist just because I agree with its dictionary definition. Feminism isn't that simple. Besides, in the West, equality has been achieved already and the movement is toxic.

[newbie2015]

I will add my opinion on why women are not equal here. Copied and pasted from another thread. Just because its a lot better doesn't mean its perfect.

"I don't know if i can agree woth this logic. Given the above argument no aid should be given to the citizens of the U. S., because our poorest poor person still has access to food pantries and public water and shelters.

Yes. I feel like i have a lot of things better then many people in the world, but that doesn't mean I ignore things because they are less dramatic.

This is one of the bigger arguements learned in greif and addiction and ptsd counseling today. Many people feel guilt and ignore pain because they believe what they've gone through is less traumatic then what someone else has experienced. The majority of the mental health professional community agrees one must be ok with their own problems and not compare them with others in order to heal. The above argument attempts to discount that"

[Jeeevan]

@newbie2015 is it perfect for men? No. All you feminists do is what is best for females are yo just ignore or belittle men's problems.

[Waffles731]

" British Sun called her speech "worthless... whining, leftie, PC crap."
What concerns me most is that people actually read the British tabloids

[VictoriousSausage]

it has the audacity (yes it, not they) to say it's the most popular paper in the UK, Christ, i wish that weren't true, Brits aren't as intelligent as they seem, most of us are just dredged up corpses of an Empire we keep grumbling about.

[Waffles731]

@VictoriousSausage
I got a downvote and now I'm REALLY concerned,
That means someone on this site actually reads the British tabloids

[VictoriousSausage]

dw man, i up voted you, people are entitled to their opinions, regardless of what they are.

[hellionthesage]

1. That is flawed, feminist did want to vote but they only wanted the white middle class to vote. It also ignored the fact that men couldn't vote either, only gaining that right 67 years before women and the only reason why they got that right was because they could be conscripted into police service in the formation of posses and the restraining of criminals (as well as when (and where) slavery was legal be forced to once a month to form night patrols to search for escaped slaves (which belonged to the rich, who coincidentally where the only ones allowed to vote (this goes for rich women as well, it wasn't gendered it was based upon economic status), bucket brigades to put out fires as well as running into burning buildings to drag people out (per orders of the fire marshall, literally all men being expected to do so) and of course the most commonly known form of conscription, military. All of which where enforced by federal law and no man was allowed to ignore under penalty of imprisonment (and usually corporal punishment of some kind). This was their contribution to the running of the country and thus was the reason they got the right to vote (only slightly sooner then women in the US. In England it wasn't until after WWI that they got the right to vote). Women on the other hand did not have to do any of these things and in fact protested AGAINST womens suffrage specificly siting these responsibilities as the reason why they did not wish to vote (in England 70% if women surveyed stated they did not wish to vote if it meant conscription). Then of course women did get the right to vote and obviously it was completely fair and equal right? Wrong, men where still conscripted against their will and women still did not have that responsibility. Men paid for the right to put a name on a ballot with their blood, and women gained the right to put a name on a ballot simply because they wanted it. Plenty of people believed in equality but it was not feminist, they wanted priviledge while simultaneously fighting to avoid having to have the same responsibilities.
2. As for reproduction women had control of it since the beginning, abortion and "birth control"(not particularly affective) date back before roman times. As for abortion yes feminist did fight for women's rights to abort their offspring instead of avoid the pregnancy all together (this was after men created safe and effective birth control for women's benefit).

[hellionthesage]

So they fought for something women basicly had, though their was definitely stigma against abortion because it is murder by legal definition. That is why assaulting a pregnant woman is considered a double assault (or homicide if murdered) because the fetus is alive and is protected under law. Feminist fought to have that right apply only under certain circumstance i. e. when it was convient for the woman. However they also fought for woman's entitlement to a mans money. See she can choose to abort that child without the fathers consent, he has zero say in the matter. She chooses parenthood for herself and the man, but feminist also fought for women to have access to a mans money if she got pregnant, that is while she can choose to not be a parent for herself and him she also chooses to be a parent for herself and him, he had no legal right to refuse like she does, thus again an imbalance. As for your abortion statistic, that is false. less then 1% of abortions are due to

[hellionthesage]

health and/or rape (combined) it is almost always due to either economic reasons or them not being "ready" to be a parent. As for reproductive rights again women can choose to have the child the man has no say, she can choose to abandon the child thanks to safe haven laws while the man has no say in the matter, she can choose to abort the child and the man has no say in the matter and she can choose to give the child up for adoption without ever telling the man which comes to him having essentially no consent and even when he finds out he has to spend years and substantial amount of money to fight the adoption process and regain what little parental rights he has. All of which was fought for by feminist, again not equal in the slightest, women have all the reproductive rights men have literally none. Even case rulings like hermsmann vs seyer where a woman raped the 12 year old boy she was baby sitting (rape and statutory rape) she was allowed to sue him for child support (she won).

[hellionthesage]

3. Feminist do hate men, this is unavoidable if you claim that all suffering comes from men, that men oppressed women treated them like chattel (property/objects) and abused them then you cannot claim not to hate them. That is absurd. As for being a "traditionalist" feminist routinely bash that role and in fact their are ample quotes from feminist stating that sex with a man is always rape irregardless of consent, that marriage is slavery and that the family unit is a prison. They routinely attack women who are actually traditional and stick to those roles. So while this may not be all feminist, it is what academic feminist and the founders of modern feminism say. As for choices, women have always had that, more so then men in fact. Women worked women owned land (coveture only applied to married women and that was because her economic well being was the mans responsibility (yet another half truth and lie of omission by feiminist).

[hellionthesage]

I would also like to point out that in everything its talking about equality for women, yet ironicly women have had more priviledge from the beginning and now have actively fought to create inequality, hence men suffering in literally every single category in our society (through out the west and all regions where feminism is prominent). So its ironic that in their claim for equality they state its for women and neglect to mention equality for men.

[lightbulb27]

I'm fine with females having a choice and power over their lives. Ultimately, that is what the whole system is about and how warped it was... power over other people. White males (primarily the English, German, etc..) held the power and controlled others... and became rich. They controlled women, and different races of people... black, Irish, Chinese and Japanese and Koreans had their own flavors of slavery and control and Africans still do to this day as does Saudi Arabia.

That is changing and has changed over time. FREEDOM... I support that as do the founding fathers... and their wives?

The funny thing is on one hand people want freedom, and the other hand they want someone to take care of them, fix their problems, tell them what to do and not be responsible for their actions. And they may not realize that you have to fight for freedom all the time, it isn't handed over, someone always wants to control you... whether it is the corporation that demands you to sign a contract to work for them, the military order that says where you live and work, and who you will fight against (whether you agree or not), the spouse who demands things of you, or the religion that tells you want to think.

Freedom... takes effort.

[Hidden_P]

1. "Do you think a woman should vote? If yes then you are a feminist"

False.
If yes you are an equaliser.

Feminist implies that a woman is better than a man. After all it's not a man-I-disabline. Equal right should be each have the same. If a woman wants the same right to a vote it's an equal right, not my vote means more than yours because a woman ran in front of a race horse woohoo.

2. Fine. I believe women have more say in that department because more happens. For a man its a 5 second pump, for a woman it's a 9 month journey. What happens beyond is down to being a decent person rather than biology. But a woman has more say.

3. Agreed. Everyone can choose if that's what they want. Personally I excel at looking after loved ones and doing chores, but I also have to run a business to do that.

Part of your 3. Feminism is not a choice. Feminism by its very name is putting women above men.

Incorrect.

Despite my own personal feelings on the matter, feminism by its very name deems women are better than men. Bullshit.
Women are equal.
Women excel have different areas we go to, and likewise for men.

For instance.

Episode of 999: what's your emergency. 2 female policemen show up and try to restrain someone. Physically they don't have the strength between them. Two males show up and have him on ground even through his "punches" and in custody. The two females manage to get a statement from the beaten female victim.

Am I saying women can't do that? No. Those women couldn't. But both genders are needed for that role.

Instead of pretending one gender is superior how about we accept everyone? Each gender is equal, you get butch females and tiny males and neither should be locked into a stereotype.

Feminism to me is like nazism. It's a name given to extremists, not equalists.

[newbie2015]

Disagree. Feminism has nothing to do with suppority as defined by all credible reference dictionaries

[Hidden_P]

Never said feminism is supporting. I said its equality. As in being equal to a man.

[newbie2015]

Right here "Feminist implies that a woman is better than a man."

[Hidden_P]

Oh you meant superiority?

How many feminists have you met you didn't want more rights than a man?

[newbie2015]

I dont. None of the women in my university nor my professors or dean ever voiced that they did...

[Hidden_P]

Hmm. Well as you may have guessed I don't believe in feminism for one simple reason: we aren't the same.

You can't cut everything down the middle and expect it to work. The two genders need specialist "rules" for different circumstances (like say children). By all means be equal, but don't be the same.

[HorrorFan]

1. Woman's study professor? Oh, you poor, indoctrinated woman.

You don't need to be a feminist to believe that women should have the right to vote. Let's also not forget that not all men were able to vote forever, either.

The only people that actually believe that women shouldn't be voting are the ultra religious, the ultra conservative or straight up actual misogynists.

2. Again, you are very close to creating a false dichotomy here. You don't have to be a feminist to believe that women should be able to enjoy sex.

Thankfully you recognized that this issue boils down to religion.

3. Your third point has nothing to do with feminism.

Feminism is NOT about having a choice. The only leg feminism has to stand on when it comes to ANYTHING it espouses is when it is fighting for legal rights. Which of course third wave feminism isn't doing.

No one gives a shit what you choose to do or not do. You are arguing very sloppily for plain old normal human rights at this point.

Who is telling you you can't work as an electrician simply because you are a woman? Certainly not an employer. They wouldn't function very long as a business then. If it's just a random person, tell them to shut the fuck up. You can't actually change how they think or feel about things, though.

WHO is telling you you can't stay at home with your children? No one. I mean you might have to go work to you know... pay for stuff.

Please stop telling people that if they do X or feel this way about Y then they are feminists. That's simply untrue.

If you believe in equality, you should choose to identify as egalitarian.

If you choose to belong to an irrational ideology, a borderline cult movement filled to the brim with fascists, misandrists, wannabe victims, Islamic apologists, liars and many other fun descriptors, then sure. Have fun being a feminist.

I wouldn't recommend it, though.

[Phoenix98]

The funny thing is that by liberal standards your not a feminists at all largely because of 3# and won't be seen as one by the people that have those liberal views because they believe that staying home and cooking, cleaning knowing how to sew and basically do things of the nuclear family unit America was founded on is a patriarchy conspiracy to suppress women. I know, it is just as ridiculous as it sounds.

Women have had the right to vote for decades before you were born via the 19th Amendment ratified in 1920. Though unfortunately women in some countries still lack this basic right which is a natural born right. Not something dictated by governments or people. Not really a feminists issue it's just a basic human right given to you by natural law as soon as you come into being.

I don't really see 2# as a feminists issue because I believe the right to live trumps what the carrier wants in pretty much 90%. As I find it morally wrong to murder children in the womb, even when they're not fully developed. And the vast majority of people who commit abortions are just as bad as the people who do the procedure. As they do them for the most selfish reasons like the life growing inside of them is an inconvenience or they just don't care.

If you don't want to get pregnant don't be stupid, use common sense.

As those stats maybe true in inner cities but they aren't a accurate representation of the entire country as whole. Plus inner cities are well known for that kind of thing, inner cities are usually war zones, large crime rate, but people, lot of violence. Wouldn't surprise me if those dead fetuses are because of abuse or poor living conditions and poor choices or the unfortunate rape.

Please do keep in mind I'm not taking jabs at your proclamation or anything it's just that none of that really makes you a feminists. As those subjects you mention go far beyond feminism.

[lumos]

Freedom of choice is liberal though so idek what you're talking about.

[Phoenix98]

@lumos Freedom of choice is a natural born right, that transcends political parties and was around long before they were. But that's not what I was taking about.

[lumos]

Yes it was. You're saying that freedom of choice isn't liberal, isn't feminist. But it is.

[Phoenix98]

@lumos No actually I wasn't I would know what I said since I said it and I never said anything about freedom of choice anywhere in my opinion. I was talking about how none of the things she stated were really feminist specific things and that believing in them didn't make her a feminists because all of those issues go far beyond that group.

That's what I was saying just like I did in my original opinion.

Now please do not argue with me again on it.

[lumos]

"The funny thing is that by liberal standards your not a feminists at all largely because of 3# and won't be seen as one by the people that have those liberal views because they believe that staying home and cooking, cleaning knowing how to sew and basically do things of the nuclear family unit America was founded on is a patriarchy conspiracy to suppress women."

^ when it was forced on women. But women are free to make that choice and stay at home because it's their choice nowadays, not many are forced into it like they used to be and feminists are ok with that because feminists are for freedom of choice. They are feminist opinions, just because people who don't identify as feminists agree with them, it doesn't make them less feminist.

[Phoenix98]

@lumos just let it go woman, I don't care how it sounds it's not what I said or how I meant it and no they aren't, many feminists especially on GaG have blatantly stated their hatred for the traditional roles even going as far as to talk down to and belittle women who choose that life. I've seen more then enough mytakes and questions about it to convince me of that in addition to evidence in quite a few other places.

Not that it matters the feminists movement here in the US in a joke, disgraced group, barley clinging to life.

Leave it at that, or be blocked, first and only warning.

[Rawrzz]

What the word truly means, huh. So, essentially, feminism means "having a choice." So your professor pretty horribly failed at teaching you what feminism is. "If you believe that women should vote, you're a feminist." Mmmm. I am a dedicated anti-feminist, and I wholly believe that women should have the right to vote. So I'm not only an anti-feminst, I'm also a feminist? I believe these two positions might not work together. But according to your professor, if you believe women should vote, you're a feminist. In other words, no anti-feminists can believe that women should have the right to vote?

"Feminism" is the result of "feminist theory" is the result of the "feminist movement". You're saying "it just means equality (or "having a choice")", when you are ascribing your belief structure to feminist *theory*. In other words, I wonder if you have a single inkling of what you are actually saying you believe in.

Do you believe in a patriarchy? Do you believe that men oppressed women since the dawn of humanity? Do you believe that men arranged society so as to benefit men at the expense of women? Do you believe that marriage was female slavery and oppression?

*This*, and more, is what feminism means. You are horrendously misrepresenting feminism as the beacon of glory and hope and choice, while ignoring the basic tenets of what being a feminist means. It's frankly despicable.

You are saying that you do believe those things, while saying it only means "having a choice". Do you actually realize how horribly you're misrepresenting the ideology of feminism? Or is that what you actually believe?

Starting after the intro, at 4:54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqEeCCuFFO8

[OpenWine]

I see it that either a sexist or a feminist are people who support only one role. Since you don't care about balance between both but gaining influence over your type.
Call yourself an equalist just to be more PC since all that is fucked up by American media. The countrys that need equal rights are muslim countries like dubai and some afrikaans state but are those people even far enough to be on the same level as we do? What could possibly go wrong trying to influence or bend their minds to what we try to archieve?

As soon as I see a woman acting all cocky and saying she's a feminist some deep anger broods inside me. You as a true feminist will feel it too, I have no problem with letting women having the same chances but I have a problem with one party trying to take over another and now I have something sexist for you.

I believe women tend to be more emotional minded when it comes to leadership and so my fear could be that if we are ruled by emotional decisions there won't be any good ones to be made. On the other hand it can be caused from both sides oh boy there's just too much assumptions to be made.

[Fathoms77]

Feminism is indeed about choice. The right to choose is what women fought for and rightly earned.

I think it's the so-called FemiNazis that are giving feminism a bad name by being blatantly hypocritical and saying females and males "have" to act a certain way, and they reserve the right to accuse anyone of... anything. That's not feminism, that's oppression. :)

[hellionthesage]

Wrong on both accounts. Women didn't fight for their privledges they where given them. Now men, they had to fight for those rights (yeah men couldn't vote either), and by fight I mean literally fight from the dohr rebellion to conscription. Women fought against womens suffrage because they didn't want the responsibilities that men had and only relented when they where assured that they would not have equal responsibilities.

[Fightingspirit]

@hellionthesage I think you slightly missed the point. There was an undeniable struggle for women. The term "fighting" can be perceived in different ways, understandably so, however, in this instance it seems as though it is refering to the whole struggle women went through. What it all entailed is well documented in history.

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit No its quite deniable. Women asked for the right to vote, many more women stated they didn't want it because they didn't want to be conscripted into military service (or police or fire department all of which men had to do and in fact was the only reason why men got the right to vote a whole 67 years before women (pretty short amount of time considering they had to die for that right unlike women who had to just exist to get it (and continue to get). Women did not have to struggle at all, men where expected to give pretty much everything to women, it was men who died in defense of women, it was men who worked themselves to death in factories and fields while being legally obligated to give the fruits of their labor to women, it was men who where expected to stay on a sinking boat while women got to evacuate, it was men who went to prison if their wives incurred a debt that the husband couldn't pay. Women didn't have to fight for anything, this is provable fact.

[Fightingspirit]

@hellionthesage Your view on the equality within society is frightening. Within a society we have all sorts of different people with different perceptions, wants, needs, opinions etc. There also have been forces within societies to inhibit the freedom of certain groups e. g. people of darker skin in America ~1954. One group that had to struggle as well were women. This is well documented. Today we have women gladly joining the army, fire brigade, police etc. Let us for one moment accept that what you say is deemed to be true, which clearly isn't, it still doesn't give the country the right to hinder women from voting. We have pacifists, unemployed, bums, disabled, people with different colour who are all allowed to vote and rightly so. This is the freedom we all have.

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit Well no its not well documented because as I stated they never struggled. The only reason why its "frightening" to you is because you have been force fed the same lies over and over again. Male suffrage didn't occur until 1853 yet is that ever mentioned? No. Do we talk about how women had to earn their right to vote by being conscripted into police, fire and military services like men did? Nope. So what exactly did women have to do to earn the vote? Why they had to stop fighting the right to vote. The biggest group against womens suffrage was women. 70% of women surveyed in the UK specificly stated that they did not wish to have the right to vote because they did not wish to be conscripted into military and various other selective services. This is a fact, and a well documented one at that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-suffragism

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit I also find it interesting that you would claim that women, the one group in all of history who never had to suffer unlike every other group would be equated to blacks. It was not women forced into war, or bucket brigades or posses, it was not women who where legally responsible for their spouses, it was not women who had to work in the fields, nor was it women who had their children and money stripped from them and given to their spouse. It was not women who when beaten by their spouse where then paraded around the town and publicily humiliated spat upon and beaten: https://www.fact.on.ca/Info/dom/george94.htm
It was not women who had to stay behind and die when the titanic sank (100 women died as opposed to 1358 men) it was not women who's life span was dramaticly shortened,

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit nor was it women who where expected to stick to their incredibly strict gender roles (women owned land worked jobs (several documents show female black smiths dating from the 1400s and women where actually banned from mining as it was deemed far to dangerous for women to work (this ironicly disproves your statement as not only did they work (they successfully campaigned to gain the right to continue working in mines) but also that they where cared for as it wasn't deemed to dangerous for the disposable men to work: www.mylearning.org/.../ )
It wasn't men who where protected under coveture where the woman had to work for his well being, that she had to pay the taxes on anything and everything he had, it was not him who could divorce her if he felt he wasn't properly provided for nor was it her who was arrested for not being able to pay off his debt. So again, pretty thoroughly documented that women where the only obstacle to womens suffrage.

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit That's why women today have it so much better, that's why they get to have anything and everything all the while men are suffering. No women do not join the police force all that often it is still over 80% male just as fire departments and military. If you look its men doing the shit jobs still, its men who are homeless (over 70%) despite the world talking about how bad women have it. The fact is their is not one law that benefits men only but their are many that only benefit women. Usually to the detriment of men. And again, stop trying to claim women where some how oppressed and associating them with blacks, that's idiocy, again they never struggled they never had it bad they where never oppressed they were never the ones suffering, but every one else was. This is again, proven fact. Whether or not you wish to acknowledge it is irrelevant to the truth of the matter.

[Fightingspirit]

@hellionthesage You seem to have difficulty with reading and comprehension. You totally twist what I have written and turn it into that what you need to suit your argument. This can be seen throughout what you have written so far.

"Women didn't have to fight for anything, this is provable fact. " Reading and comprehension.
"[...] because you have been force fed the same lies over and over again."
Proof?

Also, read what you send me please because there are numerous references towards the inequality women faced!
Here are some examples "Such "treatments" for these husbands arose out of the patriarchal ethos where a husband was expected to dominate his wife" "[...]supporting a husband's complete dominance of his wife persisted into the twentieth century (E. Pleck, 1987)" "as Mildred Daley Pagelow (1985) argues, females far outnumber males in terms of being the victims of violence."

[Fightingspirit]

The lies you speak of which I have apparently been spoon fed...
Are all these lies as well?

https://www.nps.gov/wori/index.htm
https://www.womenofthehall.org/
https://www.nwhm.org/
www.nwhm.org/.../woman-suffrage-timeline
www.huffingtonpost.com/.../womens-suffrage-museum-bill_us_55c4ff64e4b0d9b743dc20f2
https://humanrights.ca/exhibit/empowering-women

[Fightingspirit]

If you want you can walk through life ignoring the truth, twisting the facts to suit your agenda, bury your head in conspiracy, blame the media for lying etc. Nowadays with all the information which is available you will find it very hard to bend reality or change history. There are museums in many different countries documenting womens rights and the struggle they faced during that time, not only that there are even days to commemorate events. www.nwhp.org/.../
I don't need to look extremely hard to find so many sources to back up what I have said. Very, very easy. There are so many it is unreal and diminishes your claims to a near zero.

[Fightingspirit]

If you want to put in a claim in for men and equality then I would suggest you go about it in a totally different way. I believe there are some inequalities towards men.

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit Don't really understand your comment, seems like your grasping for something that isn't their. As for your second one asking for proof, I presented it. The fact that not once do you hear feminist mention poor men couldn't vote but rich women could for starters (it was based upon property tax not gender). Yet despite this being very well estabilished: https://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h2670.html and even though men fought for their right to vote, again like the dorr rebellion of Rhode island (rich people voted for laws that benefited them and no one else so the poor men fought them and tried to force them to give them the right to vote to counter this): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorr_Rebellion
And despite all of this we don't celebrate any of these days do we? We don't talk about any of these things in schools or in public do we?

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit Ergo you are parroting the same thing that others say that women suffered (despite living longer healthier lives (the only time an oppressor was more likely to die in any and all ways then the one's "oppressed")). Now as for your completely one sided bias, as I pointed out and even gave you a link to men who where abused where publicly beaten, that pretty much proves your point about women being "victims" wrong both in that clearly men where as well, clearly it was unacceptable for men to be victims and also shows a clear unarguable bias against men. Then of course if we factor in current data from the CDC NCVS and various other groups that clearly show that men are far more likely to be the victims of abuse then women: www.saveservices.org/.../
Would also heavily suggest otherwise. Also your quotes, where is their evidence? I showed you mine but as far as I can tell what you presented was opinion pieces.

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit Further, as I already pointed out and provided a link for it was women who fought against womens suffrage not men so claiming that men oppressed women and women had to "fight" for their rights is in fact wrong, it was women arguing whether or not they should get those rights. Was this mentioned in any of your links? No, its well documented, I presented the evidence you can read it yourself (you won't because it goes against your belief structure) so claiming that we acknowledge an event does not actually suggest anything. We don't acknowledge male suffrage, doesn't mean it didn't happen, we don't acknowledge that women had to give up nothing for their right to vote while men had to sign selective service cards for that same right, essentially signing their life away. Just because you and feminist don't mention it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Your argument is horribly flawed.

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit From ad hominid fallacies to straw man, cherry picking, circular reasoning. Its insubstantial statements meant to avoid the actual issues and statements. That's why I presented data that all of your links don't talk about yet is very much true and provable (and their not from sites that have an agenda like feminist sites and the huffington post which is comprised of feminist women all who write from that persepective). So as I stated women never had to fight for anything but men did. Again this is fact historical and statistically backed, not propaganda from a site or source that has a vested interest in claiming women are victims despite living longer healthier lives then any other group.

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit When 75% of suicides are male, 98% workplace accidents and deaths are male, when over 70% of the homeless are male, when the majority of domestic violence victims are male when according to the CDC (who actually attempted to cover it up thanks to one of the head people being Mary Koss a feminist known for lying about statistics (like the 1 in 5 women rape statistic)) showing that men are as likely to be raped by a woman as a man is to rape a woman: https://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/ yet raping a man was not made illegal until 2013 in the US (and in other countries its still legal and in fact feminist groups in india and Israel in particular have actively campaigned to keep the law unfairly biased) when 60% of all college graduates are female and the number is rising while males are 4x more likely to drop out in all grades while the school system itself has stated it has feminized education to the point where its no longer suitable for males:

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit www.forestparkreview.com/.../
educhatter.wordpress.com/.../
and studies have shown that boys get scored lower on English and writing tests then girls yet when their gender is unknown they score over 30% higher, yet we have plenty of programs that help get women into schools and constantly cite how women are not properly represented or treated properly in the school system while ignoring the males who actually are mistreated. Then of course the fact that boys respond better to male teacher but education is almost entirely female (over 80%) which is ironic considering that we claim we need more women in STEM fields and more female CEOs (despite the fact that women refuse to enter these occupations the majority of the time hence so many programs being shut down because their wasn't gender parity thus harming men trying to enter the stem fields) so much so that legal action has been taken and their are forced hiring quotas for women in male dominated fields yet their are no

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit male hiring quotas in female dominated fields despite the fact that its actually needed. When society claims women are the face of poverty despite the fact that over 70% of the homeless population is male, when breast cancer (and every other female centric disease) gets 3x the funding for research in both the private and public sector then prostate cancer (being the second most common and lethal cancer their is seconded only by lung cancer), when a woman can abort a child abandon a child (safe haven laws) and give a child up for adoption without ever having to consult the father yet if she wishes to keep the child the father is mandated by law to pay child support to her (his involvement is only acknowledged when it benefits her), when we have land mark cases like hermsmann vs seyer which state that irregardless of the circumstances a man is legally obligated to pay child support

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit (hermsmann vs. seyer was a court case where a babysitter sued a 12 year old boy that she under law raped for child support. She won) where a woman can literally steal a mans sperm from a sperm bank then sue him successfully for child support or rape a child (as was the case for a 14 year old child in Arizona who was raped by his 24 year old neighbor) and get child support from them, when women who rape boys get next to no punishment for their crimes but a 19 year old boy who had sex with a 16 year old who lied to him and told him she was 18 can be arrested and put into prison and forced to register as a sex offender, when women receive a third of the sentencing for commiting the same crime as a man: www.law.umich.edu/.../...r_gender_disparities.aspx (On the rare occasion that their even sentenced as most are overlooked or downplayed like the woman who smashed a class into a mans face at a bar and received no punishment what so ever)

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit When we talk about a gender pay gap despite it being provably false, that women who are unmarried and sinlge actually make significantly more then their male counter parts and that every single penny is accounted for when its women getting "paid less" yet the over a dollar more pay female social workers get is completely unaccounted for and according to everything we know should in fact not be happening (its also conviently a female dominated field) or the pay gap in models where the highest paid models life time earnings where over 4 million while the highest paid male models life time earnings where only 1 million, or stem fields where women make more starting pay thanks to the hiring quotas and the fact that women don't enter those fields so the few companies have to fight over a few candidates (and also women with stem degrees have a 70% greater probability of being hired as teachers then males (despite males responding better to male teachers)

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit When we have all of this and so much more going on, we can safely say its not a little inequality between the genders its a staggering gap in equality. We can also safely say that it is not women who are suffering it is men, again in all catagories. Something your piss poor argument failed to mention is the simple fact that the only reason why women appear to be victims more is simply because we refuse to acknowledge male victims, hence poverty being a womens issue literally as nearly the entire homeless population is male, even as most resources go to women both for homeless shelters and for domestic violence victims etc. Again this is fact proven statistically historically and anecdotally. Your acknowledgement of it is not required for it to be true. To quote you, "your world view is frightening" more so because you believe it despite all evidence to the contrary. That's zealotry and nothing good can come from it.

[Fightingspirit]

@hellionthesage You are again drawing conclusions on insufficient evidence. One of the first links you gave me mentioned the grand scale of inequality women faced. Some men faced some inequality as well, but it outlines that the difference was stronger for women. This was your source!
Reading your posts you aren't able to make a substatial claim. You take one bit of "evidence" if you want to call it that and without looking at it rationally you bend it to suit your argument. Talk to a professor, post graduate, lawyer, police man/woman or a judge and they might be able to explain to you how to interpret evidence and link it to a reasonable argument. I urge you and I don't mean it in a hurtful way, that you should visit a museum about women's rights. There are plenty around.

Don't forget we are all HUMAN

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit Yes yes I know where all human I have heard that propaganda before, funny how it never seems to apply to men. As for the links yes they where taught in the same schools as you and every one else the ones that conviently for get to mention pertinent details. I point out the links becauset hey happen to show that my statement was accurate, a specific statement. Its taboo to mention that women where not the ones being forced to die so that men could live, or being forced to pay the taxes on their husbands property or go to prison for their debts etc etc. Where all human is a shit statement for several reasons, one because I never said we where not, two because it has no relevance to my statements and three its not even an argument. Your literally using every logical fallacy their is. The facts remain, their is substantial evidence for what I stated, as I was able to present it to you, just because no one acknowledges it doesn't mean its wrong.

[Fightingspirit]

@hellionthesage It is very relevant because you do not seem to acknowledge this fact and argue for inequality. That is sexism and nothing else. If there are inequalities you don't solve them by adding more sexism. You solve them by striving for a fair change. Our laws are very close to equality. There may have to be some chnages here and there, but it is by far better than it has been. You always seem to place one gender above the other. Examples of you doing so... where you mention the womens right to vote. Whether some women did or didn't want to go to war or pick up a weapon is their choice, why should they be hindered from voting? I have given you so many CLEAR examples and sources whereby you couldn't provide ONE substatial piece of evidence. Not one!! All sources you mentioned so far had more holes than Swiss cheese. We've got museums, universities, days to commemorate thhe struggle women had and you deny it all. The evidence is so great I don't seem to see a reason to continue..

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit What part of my statement was sexist? At which point did I discriminate against women? When I stated the very provable facts that it was women who where against female suffrage? Because that's not discrimination that is as stated a fact. As for choosing to go to war you have as per usual ignored the context of the statement (I don't know why you would think I wouldn't notice). I never said they should have to or not, I stated MEN HAD TO GO TO WAR in order to vote women did not ergo if men have to pay for the right to vote by being conscripted and women get the right to vote but have no equivalent price for it then that is by literal fucking definition of inequality. How is that difficult to grasp? If one has to pay with their life and another doesn't then that is not fair yet this is precisely what feminist have "fought" for and got (fairly easily I might add). So again that's sexism that's injustice and that's inequality. Try again!

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit Yes we have museums and what does that mean? Nothing. Propaganda. Hell they had fucking sciences dedicated to proving that blacks where inferior. Does that mean it was true? No, it meant that a lot of people had a personal agenda. I gave you facts you didn't give anything you just kept repeating that the evidence is "so great" and then proceeded not to actually point out that evidence. I stated that your claims where wrong then I proceeded to provide evidence for it , see the problem here? You claim your have evidence and yet don't show it I claim I have evidence but do actually show it. Also I find it interesting that through out this entire "discussion" you have been the one insulting me, you have been personally attacking me I have not said a thing to you. Funny how that works, I thought we where "all human beings"? What happened to that? Guess that gets thrown out the window when some one proves you wrong huh?

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit I could have ripped you apart but I kept it civil you didn't and I think that pretty much proves my point about how brainwashed you are. See if you had evidence you would provide it, not talk about how it exists but literally prove my statements wrong. Men in the UK didn't get the right to vote until after WW1 you know because all men where sexist pigs and oppressed women. Now according to you I am wrong so by all means, provide the evidence. If its so abundant then it should be easy. Here I'll provide the evidence: www.telegraph.co.uk/.../...bout-male-suffrage.html
See easy! Women didn't want to vote in general because they didn't want to be drafted, you claim this is false provide evidence for it. Here I'll provide my evidence: www.spectator.co.uk/.../
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1046817919602413840
Okay now provide your evidence?

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit See that's the problem your pretty and oh so wise words of "where all human"(which no one argued otherwise and is also redundant since yes all humans are human, might as well tell me all triangles are triangles) doesn't mean a thing. Its not an argument its pseudo-wise words meant to ignore the actual content of the argument (a logical fallacy) I provided evidence for massive inequalities and you dismissed them because it doesn't fit your world view hence you having the argument of "their is so much evidence" while providing none of it. That's why you say "But theirs musuems and other people who think this way" sure and what does that mean? Nothing, their are people who have so called "evidence" that the holocaust didn't happen does that make them right? No. We had entire sciences that where to prove a particular point, the inferiority of blacks, where they right? No. We have creationist muesums too, does it make them right? No. You don't have anything.

[Fightingspirit]

@hellionthesage It is important because you are sexist. You don't treat men and women equally. It is a simple message which doesn't seem to register with you. You can't get the simple things right. Thankfully we have good laws in place to stop people like you treating people with inequality.

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit Yes you claiming I'm sexist must mean I am sexist. Again you make a claim but don't back it with anything. Have I said men and women are not equal? I have mentioned how under the law we are not, that women have significantly more rights then men have and are better treated in society but that has nothing to do with sexism. That's not prejudging or discrimination, that was a factual statement I even presented those facts to you. I find it ironic that the very person trying to claim the moral high ground (you) has been the one to conduct themselves in the least moral way. You insult and accuse and judge me, because I do not agree with your or feminist claims that women where treated like property (they where not) then I must be sexist, you know because I have a penis and I dare to question the feminist narrative. You claim moral high ground yet do nothing but spew hate and insults while obfuscating the truth with unbackable claims. This has been a complete waste of time.

[Fightingspirit]

@hellionthesage You mention that men have and had more inequality than women. The evidence you presented is inadequate. Your sources mention predominately the struggle women faced. You basically p*ssed on your own leg. You aren't very good at making a strong enough case. It has been quite amusing reading your posts because you kept denying the obvious. I can only lead a blind man so far.

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit I did mention that men have more inequalities now, and that in general they had more inequalities historically. If body count, being publicly beaten for being a victim of domestic violence, being legally required to run into burning buildings or help hunt down criminals or join the military all against their will (and in England they would be pressed ganged into navel service, it was legal kidnapping but only so long as it happened to men) is not evidence enough for you well you have a very twisted idea of what inequality is. Mine is when men are butchered extorted and expected to stay behind and die so women can live while women got all the same rights and then some. That's my definition of inequality as its literally unequal. Don't much know what your definition is but clearly its wrong. And again, my sources gloss over what men had to do that doesn't mean men didn't have to do it it just means we don't give a damn what happens to men, hence men having fewer rights.

[hellionthesage]

@Fightingspirit As for your other statements, to say they are inaccurate would be an understatement. Like for instance claiming the rape statisics showing that women rape men at much the same rates or that women abuse men at higher rates does not show women having it bad it shows that men have it really bad but no one cares. Its part biology (neotenous biological traits for one) and part society requiring men to be disposable in order to run and function. Again your insults do not constitute evidence, which means you have presented no evidence unlike myself who has presented evidence for every single statement I made. So your remarks would be laughable if it where not for the fact that you actually believed them. Your a misandrist but unfortunately since this is normal its not even going to offend you as hating men is simply par for the course.

[Valkyrie1]

Naturally like any post about feminism it attracts all the crazies. Its funny during Margaret Sanger time most feminist thought women's place was at home. She didn't invent birth-control though I think your confusing that with term "birth control" which she popularized.

[newbie2015]

You are essentially correct. Though I believe she is credited as co founder in 51 w man she'd been prodding to help her, pincus and another, a staunch Catholic, Rock, but more on a concepualized capacity.

[Saoirse_Nua]

Absolutely nothing wrong with those points of views but as most have seen here - Feminist or Feminism is a trigger word that sends people off into the weeds of argument - My basic agenda is that if a movement improves the lot of people then it is no bad thing - What both sides have to look at does any change impinge on anyone else or perpetuate an injustice that is already there, if it pass that criteria then good - My basic belief is that everyone should have a basic minimum of human rights and entitlements, some people join specific movements, I take things on a case by case basis to decide which side I favour neither approving or disapproving of any side in general unless they are up to something that is very unjust - In an ideal world the MRAs and the Feminists could sit down to negotiate a constructive path forward together to raise the minimum bar higher , bit of a fantasy at the moment.

[Kiran04]

The one and only reason you "qualify" as a feminist is because you want to. No one of the things you stated is exclusively feminist, and someone can believe all three and still not be a feminist. Why? Because feminism sucks. Yes women should vote. Yes, reproductive rights are important (though no one ever mentions men's reproductive rights. Curious.). And yes, women should bake, sew, raise kids, and what have you (if they want to). But those are not the big feminist issues. No, feminists care about men sitting open legged on the subway. They care about video game characters that don't exist and boobs made out of pixels. They care about women who look better than them being put up on billboard ads. They care about people saying mean things on the internet about them. What they don't care about are important things. Feminism is garbage. Time to move on.

[newbie2015]

This is like arguing all civil rights proponents are black panthers and all people who are Christian are born again.

Exceptions aren't the basis of rules, but many comments are saying because they note an extreme, though exceptional, it is the rule.

[Kiran04]

Only they aren't exceptions by any stretch of the imagination. Feminism is full of and defined by women (and men) who tote these issues. Feminism is a movement, and all movements are defined by actions. Well, the actions of feminism speak all too clearly, victimhood, misandry, and special treatment. None of these are laudable. Trying to claim "not all feminists" or "these are only extremists" is incorrect. These are not the extremists. They are the norm. People like Christina Hoff Sommers are the exceptions, and she's actually likable and reasonable.

[Jager66]

"1. Women should vote"

Should women have to earn the right to vote like men do/did? or are women just specially entitled to the vote without having to earn it?

"2. I support reproductive rights"

Do you support reproductive rights for men as well? Should a man be allowed to choose when he becomes a father?

"3. I believe women should bake and raise babies and sew"

A stated goal of Feminism was the destruction of the nuclear Family, just saying...

Also would you be happy with a husband who also took advantage of the right to choose? What if your husband decided he wanted to stay home with the kids while you work for a few years, or he wanted to go back to school, or work part time, or any combination of these? Or would that not be acceptable to you?

[YourFutureEx]

Women can vote even in Saudi Arabia these days. I don't know why the heck this topic is coming up again and again and again.

Do chemists not sell you pills just because you are a woman? What the f...
And abortion is banned in some countries because of female foeticide.

Feminism is a choice. A choice to create gender gap.

[AssJacket]

Looks like you got a lot of drivel about FemiNazis ruining it for everyone. Question in my mind is: how many militant extremists are there, really? I'm guessing not a lot. Not enough to ruin a movement. I think it's a scapegoating technique.

[newbie2015]

It almost is reminiscent of the hippie movement in the 70s. So few people were hippies but they are so vocal people become disenfranchised and get a sour taste of it...

[AssJacket]

Yet, it was wildly successful.

[MagiAlphaOne]

@AssJacket, Just AWESOME! (slowly clapping hands)

[Anonymous]

Typical moronic feminist. If you are against me, you are some radical who thinks women shouldn't vote. Never mind when boys fail at school, are mistreated, discriminated against, told they are evil because they were born boys, make less money than women, feminists not only do nothing but rejoice. Take your sexism, and your tax evading, lying, sexist idol with you.

[Fightingspirit]

I think we need to be more careful about the language we use in terms of "they", "them", "us" etc. because it can run down the road of trying to label people. Yes, men and women do have differences, but we have more things in common. We are human beings and human beings are capable of learning, studying, working, making decisions etc etc etc...

[Love_Is_Eternal]

The hidden agenda of feminism is to destroy the family. You don't have to be a feminist to believe in equality. I believe in equal rights and yet I'm not a feminst. I'm just a human being who believes that men and women should have equal rights. But feminism has it'sown dark agendas and is not about equality.

[ISaidFuryNotFurry]

When feminism is needed, then I will see a point in it. As of now, in the west, it isn't needed. Women already are equal to men, in the eyes of the law. They can't be paid less, it is illegal, has been since the 60s.

Even if feminism was needed, I'd still not label myself as one. I have always been for equal rights, I don't need a group or a label to be myself.

[SovereignessofVamps]

I wrote a mytake about this and think yours is cool!

[SovereignessofVamps]

I don't agree with the idea that you're auto a feminist for believing certain things though. I know you didn't mean it badly at all, but if feminism is about choice then people can choose what different things mean to them right?

[newbie2015]

People can choose how they identify, that doea not negate definition and their being a part of that definition. For instance if one never ever eats meat they risk being considered a vegetarian by definition. Even if they dont identify with vegatarianism. It gets slippery when people claim to be, say, royalty. But they have no royal relatives. Are they mentally ill? Or because they say they are are they indeed?

Ones perception is their own reality. What is more important to you? Perception or reality? Vecause sometimes the two don't jive.

[FakeName123]

So much wrong in this take, I will not even bother. Someone having had an university experience and is - at least thats what your account says - 37 years old should know the basics of logical fallacies.

If not, see here: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/