Why I'm A Feminist

[LadyRowenya]

I recently became a feminist. Not because I'm a man-hating, bra-burning revolutionary, but because I had a son. Sounds ridiculous, I know, but hear me out. I've always thought that men got a bad rap after the suffragette movement. Sure, women's rights are extremely important, but much has been made of female equality, without much consideration being given to men's equality.

Now before anyone starts with the pay gap dispute, let me give you an example. My son's father recently had a breakdown. And I don't mean just a minor case of the blues, I mean a full-on breakdown. Tears, screaming, the whole nine yards. It was awful, mostly because I had no idea how to react. I'd never seen a man have a breakdown before, despite seeing my father cry on more than one occasion.

This really brought it home to me that there is a huge gap in equality. Not just in the pay gap, or in clothing, or in toy stereotypes for young children, but in terms of emotions. Men are meant to be macho, can-do, stolid figures whereas women are described as "hormonal", "bossy", "emotional" people who are more home-makers than anything else. Oh yes, women can and do work, but there is always that idea in the back of men's minds that women should be at home with children - as shown by the fact that 84% of custody battles end in the woman being awarded custody.

This, to my mind, is ridiculous. I'm currently seeing a single father who does an amazing job with his children, and I know plenty of excellent single fathers. Why women win 84% of custody battles is beyond me, because it infers that men are inherently useless fathers. Of course, there is the problem of paternity leave being only 2 weeks, which is also ridiculous in this day and age - men are just as capable of parenting as women!

The other thing that p****s me off is that men and women have set clothes. For example, men can't wear skirts unless it's a kilt. Women can wear trousers, but they're specifically cut to show off your legs or bum. Jayden Smith made headlines when he went out wearing a skirt, and it made me wonder why that was news. So what, a man wore a skirt. What's the big deal? It's just a man expressing himself, it's not anything to be feared or made a big deal out of.

Back to my son. He was born in June 2015 and is already in "boy's clothes". Nothing pink or girly, just lots of blues, greys, greens ... everything that's stereotypically male. And it bugs me because I keep thinking, well what if he wants to wear pink when he's older? What if he wants to have long hair, or wear makeup? What if he wants to become a girl? How and why would society judge him? Would they accept him as I would, or would he be shunned? Why would he be shunned?

Society claims to be inclusive, but in all honesty, it isn't. It's selectively inclusive - as long as you fit the preconceived ideas of what men and women should be, we'll include you. Go against the grain and you're an outcast or a minority. People shun you, or pity you, and try to change your mind. They call it a "phase" and say you'll get over it - but why? If it's acceptable to be monogamous, cis and everything that society accepts, why can we not open our minds and accept transgenders, transvestites, polyamory and the like? Why is men's mental health not as widely discussed as women's?

These are all questions that led me to be a feminist, not because I want to be a man's equal, but because I believe in equality for both genders. As a friend put it, men should be able to cry and women should be able to be tough. Society is a set of scales that isn't in balance, and it needs to be.

[OlderAndWiser]

there are many agendas that are identified with "feminism." Some of them are quite laudable and some are merely a pretext for women venting their hatred men. What is sometimes lost in the arguments around feminism is that people having equal rights and opportunities doesn't mean that the genders should be identical. I like some of the differences between traditional male and female roles and a world without such differences would be sad, indeed.

That does not mean that everyone should be forced to live within the strictures of traditional roles. However, having the "right" to take some action or behave in some particular way does not mean that doing so is the "right" thing to do.

[M_A_X]

This is why you don't call yourself anything like a feminist. You don't need to label yourself, because your views are always going to be more complicated than that, and you're lumping yourself in with a whole load of people that YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW

You don't need to say you're a feminist. You don't need to say you're a christian. You don't need labels for anyone who wants to actually get to know you well enough to TALK TO YOU. Labels are dismissive and defeat the purpose of standing up for complex issues at all

[MilkyAmy]

Oh fuck, move along just bullshit here. What is the horseshit? Fuck off, you are destroying the bond between a man and a women

[Applefan1]

The bond between men and women i feel is being destoryed these days and I find that sad to be honest.

[hellionthesage]

So you decided to become a feminist because feminist created a society that ostricise men and treats them as tools (while placeing blame of their treatment squarely on their (mens) shoulders)? To become a feminist because we had a system where women had great freedoms (more then men ever had) and where men could be men but also could have the intimacy and emotional outlet through the women in their lives who loved them and cared for them all of which was destroyed by feminist who stripped men of the contact and intimacy and nurturing that women gave them forcing them to be the "macho" guy without any outlet wihtout the intimacy, love and respect for all the sacrifices they made but instead ridicule and hate (which should be apparent as feminist blame men for male suffering)? To become a feminist, the very people who have falsly claimed that men are sociopaths (you have to believe that if you believe that women where oppressed through out all of history) that men are abusers (despite all data showing that women are more likely to abuse their husbands and children then men are) that they are all rapist as can be seen by the feminist "real men don't rape" and "don't be that guy" campiagn (despite the CDC data showing that men are raped by women almost as frequently as women are raped by men (and this is before we factor in that we refuse to acknowledge female rapist exist, as evident by amy schumer) and that statisticly taking into account prison rape men are raped at far greater rates then women) and that they are violent towards women (despite the fact that 80% of assualt and murder victims are male)? To become feminist, because of child custody laws which deprive a father from seeing his child all of which was pushed for by feminist (The national organization of women had actively campaigned for women to get full custody and even had it on their front page of their website until men started pointint out the hypocricy of it (they took it down a few years ago))? To become feminist because you believe that all men secretly want women to stay at home with the kids (which was never the case, women have always worked, not working was desirable to women as it showed status, we even have documents dating back to the 1400s which list several female blacksmiths.(not to mention the female warriors of scandinavia and the skythians (eastern europe)) while refusing to acknowledge the standards that women place on men are rigid and unyielding is probably the only statement you made

[hellionthesage]

that actually correlates with the desire to be a feminist. Every other problem you mentioned, was created by feminism. In fact your readiness to blame all men for the conditions that men suffer through, like not being acknowledged as victims in any capacity (feminist women have actively campaigned against rape laws that would make it possible for women to be charged with rape) the fact that male sucide is 4x higher then womens, that it doubles after divorce (80% of all divorces are filed by women the most common reason being irreconcilable differences ie no fault), that they have their children taken away at the mothers whim, they have no reproductive rights to speak of (a woman can choose to abort her child without consent of the father, she in most places can give the child up for adoption or abandon it at a safe haven without notifying the father while if she chooses to keep it he is legally obligated to pay childsupport or go to jail) that women have a third of the sentencing as men

[hellionthesage]

do for commiting the same crime, that men are constantly portrayed either as idiots at best and at worse as monsters while women are never portrayed as rapist (despite data showing they are) or abusers (despite data showing they are more likely to abuse then men) as child abusers (as all data showing they are more likely to do then men), that women have a monopoly on all positive traits while men have a monopoly on all the bad. All of that and your obvious readyness to believ it, your desire to watch your child be feminised (because god for bid we acknoweldge that while some males may whant to act more feminine, most don't) that you are so convinced that he should be allowed to act in a feminine manner if he wants to while actively demonizing masculine behavior (thus creating a inequality ie feminine is good masculine is bad) shows that yeah, you would absolutely make a great feminist. Maybe the issue isn't that they are acting masculine? Maybe its that society hates them for being

[hellionthesage]

masculine, that it demonizes masculine attitude as violent and aggressive (completely ignoring data and the fact for all of history it was men who fought and died protecting their families (some would say the ultimate sacrifice and sign of love and devotion)) and that they are not being allowed to be themselves is the issue.

[pnl86]

The irony of "feminist" or "He --> FOR --> She" movements, beliefs, and philosophical positions is when they claim the are for "equality" for "both" sexes.

If that's the case, what's wrong with simply being "humanist"? Not "for" black people, Jewish people, female people, etc. ... just simply "people."

Feminists are not advocating "for equality," they're advocating "for women... to have more rights." Feminists aren't spending time and money resources analyzing all of the injustices that affect men, and lobbying lawmakers and the media to run a PR campaign and harness support for issues that affect men unfairly (and correct them, "in the name of equality"). That is all. There is no "punch line," that point "is" the punch line.

Similarly, "He" ... "FOR" ... "She" asks men to take their time and money resources and devote them "FOR" issues that affect women. Is this in return or exchange for the time and resources women devote for issues that affect men? No. This is just asking men to give time and money to women, so that women can somehow benefit.

In the meantime:

1. Only women have control over whether or not to unilaterally terminate their parental liabilities with respect to a child they neither consented to have, nor want to be a parent to. Men cannot. The converse of that is that unlike women, men can be "forced" into being a father of a child they neither consented to have, nor wanted to be a parent to (not thanks to biology, but thanks to society and the law).

2. Women don't have to have their male partner's permission or consent to get an abortion. Men need their wife's permission and consent in order to get a vasectomy.

Those are the clear constitutional examples of how far "feminism" (cough), I'm sorry, "Society's quest for equal rights under the law" have shaped the law.

The latest birth child of feminism? "Affirmative consent" laws. The "only" instance in criminal law where the "defendant" has a "burden of proof" in affirmatively proving that he or she "did NOT" commit the crime.

Of course, as trial lawyers will laugh and tell you, it was a giant shot in the foot.

Q: So, you really can't prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you did NOT communicate your desire to engage in the activity with the defendant?

Q: Any more than you can prove that God is NOT real?

Q: Nothing further your honor. I'll remind the jury of the prosecution's burden of proof and the defendant's constitutional rights during closing arguments.

[Ratiocinative]

Equality means being equal in value as a person, not being the same. Men and women are different, so they wear different things. Being beautiful is a feminine trait. Men are attracted to beauty, women are not. Women are attracted to strength and leadership. That is why men dress to look strong and professional and women when dress to look pretty.

In the business world a woman can sometimes help herself look professional by dressing in a suit even though it is a "mans" clothing, because it helps her look strong. A man, on the other hand, really has nothing to gain by dressing like a woman. Looking pretty isn't going to help you get a promotion as a man. A company is going to want to hire a strong leader as CEO, not someone pretty.

You can argue these are man-made constructs, and to some extent they probably are, but its just a fact that we view certain clothes as powerful and certain clothes as beautiful. Being emotional and pretty simply does not project confidence in people that you are a good leader in a business environment. You're welcome to give it a try, but it won't work.

[hellionthesage]

Actually they are not man made but biological. Its called neotany. In fact they have shown that facial structure plays a big part in how people vote irregardless of the persons platform. Women have a greater amount of neotenous traits which makes them appear "weaker" and by extention needing protection, males have fewer so it makes them look strong. What this does is makes women believed when they claim to be the victim while makes men get taken more seriously in positons of power. They do not dictate the reality of their vicitm hood or power but our perception of them is affected and to be honest, most people don't care enough to go beyond base percepetions.

[Azara]

Is that really the first time you w a guy freak out or do you think you just did not take it in bc you had not personal interest in the person or, bc you had expectations about how men will behave? I'm just curious bc i see guys freaking out ALL the time. but I've never expected them not to. i didn't grow yup assuming when or men had set personalities based on birth sex, i just knew there was a lot of sexism stereotypes enforced behaviors etc--maybe thats why.

or maybe you really never have seen it till now. interesting either way.

i agree anyhow. barring causing harm, people should b free to feel how they feel go after what they want and not be persecuted for it or live under the threat of persecution. its bullshit the amount of lip service people give to freedom and rights meanwhile perpetuating as 'natural ' extraordinary amounts of discrimination. even to the extent or refusing to accept people have personalities they have that are more than abnormal deviations... personalities that are simply just who they are.

[Azara]

Or my favorite "i think women and men have the right to be who they are, but you know there are natural differences... thats where stereotypes come from"

if you believe people have the right to be themselves thats great. no need to qualify it. plus no one talking about it has ay back ground or access to any study hat deals with all women and all men. its simply how they 'wish ' the world to be. saying they think people should be free to be themselves is not an honest statement if its followed by language that limits freedom of expression,.

[MilkyAmy]

"i think women and men have the right to be who they are, but you know there are natural differences... that's where stereotypes come from" - Whats wrong with that, there are many natural differences and mental differences between us its what brings us together, no? Sure i don't have any studies, but i don't need them... i feel the differences between us and girls like you are fucking up the genders so much we are just melting into some sort of hybrid species... the is a man and a women with massive differences and capabilities... don't deny yourself the truth my dear :)

[ted22]

@MilkyAmy I slightly love you.

[TheFlak36]

The typical feminist bullshit. Complaining about men who can't wear skirts or make up. You forgot to complain about sexist air-conditioning. If you are for equality you can't be a feminist. Simple as that. The feminist movement is a not just a joke. It is a tool of the system with the sole purpose to hate on the European male and destroy the foundations of traditional family as it should be. Which is a masculine man as a father and a feminine woman as the mother. I already feel sorry for your son when you think of him wanting to become a girl and wear girls clothes. Yes, his father should indeed take care of him.
Instead of complaining about such bullshit why are you not doing something against real issues that threaten women in the western world where you belong?
Where is the feminist movement with all these muslim invaders raping women? Nowhere. You not only refuse to demonstrate against foreign invaders who are all muslims and look at women as they are just a piece of shit, you turn against your own men. Because obviously only European men are evil for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecJUqhm2g08

[LadyRowenya]

Thank you for that lovely video - I am a Muslim woman and I believe that what terrorists like ISIS/Daesh are doing is uncondonable. The way that those men treat women is indeed deplorable, and that is a ginormous issue that does need addressing. However, there is a lot to be done in the world of feminism itself, across all cultures and countries. However, I think it best to look to my own before I poke my nose into another country's cultures and decisions.

[TheFlak36]

If you feminists look to your own then why are you always absent from critical issues? Where were you when the Swedish woman was raped by an Afghan migrant in the train and said that she don't want to report to the police because that would be racist? Where are you when all those under aged girls in England are being raped or just sexually attacked by so called refugees? Where were you after New Years Even in Germany when in Cologne ALONE more than 800 women were sexually abused and robbed? Where were you when that Italian ''no borders'' activist (or lets say idiot) got raped by 3 Somali men and she didn't report it to the police for 3 months because that would be ''racist''? You're nowhere. You don't care about the protection of women and their interests specific to them as women. You're just another tool of the system. Ny the way just seconds before I saw your comment, I found the ''sexual assault by a refugee'' video of the day. Again in Germany. Enjoy. www.facebook.com/.../

[TheFlak36]

And of course no feminists will care about this either.

[LadyRowenya]

I was at home working on my MA. I agree that the actions of the people detailed below should be brought to the attention of the mainstream media, and it is deplorable that they are not. As for not caring about women - trust me, dear sir, I do. I work for the police and I care about women just as much as I care about men because at the end of the day, we are all in this life together.

[TheFlak36]

Another applause to your Feminist movement.
www.barritrad.com/.../

[CoolSky01]

That word , i dont think you know what that world means, you keep throwing it around i hate it !! i absolutly hate it.

Do you know how much other women suffer in other countries? you are worried about other men wearing skirts? Why the fuck would a man want to wear skirts? we are men we are supposed to be manly its BIOLOGY !! its not something society forces us to do i enjoy being a man and i have no desire to become feminine , and women should enjoy being feminine not manly , when you want to dress like me, eat like me, work like me, swear like me, fight like me, go with me everywhere, do everything i do... girls we have a problem you're turning into a man (btw longer hair is better on you) , so stop it , just stop it you are getting every kind of right right now , you want to want to wear pants, cut your hair short and act like a dude and thats why you're a feminist? too bad we dont like it and we never will.

I just dont understand what women want ot achieve , they say equality and shit but you already have that , now you're venting into our territory you are claiming that what makes us men should be for women as well, fuck that no it should not !! I dont want girls to be dressing, talking and acting like me , why would i want that? or any sane man? you are entering a place that has nothing to do with you , its like me going to america and demand that I get paid welfare , cause even though iam from a different country iam still a human being and they should pay me or they are assholes !! feminisim is not much different its women who got everything already but now want more , they want what men have , they want what makes a man a man and that shit is just sick , its sick so ladies get over your fantasies.

[genericname85]

i absolutely agree. but i freaking hate the term "feminism" because it basically means absolutely nothing. for me people who claim they are "feminists" are just dumb.

now don´t be butthurt but hear me out first.

Feminism is a social movement that came to live mainly to enable women to vote and be politically and socially "equal" to men. well arguably this has been achieved already. but instead of dropping the term, people still cling to the term because it´s assoiated with a successfull social movemend and go forth to fill it with what ever meaning they think is cool. there is no set, official agenda or definition of feminism. no council or institute that is responsible for it´s meaning. only the person who uses the term defines it for him/her self

a word that has no set "meaning" and can be used in favor or against anyting, shouldn´t be appropriate to describe what you are saying! on top of it, it´s begining with "fem" as in female not male. you wouldn´t want a movement in favor of women and men that´s called "masculinism" either, would you?

you should be for equality or equity not feminism. feminism means nothing. i´m not hating on your stated opinion. that´s totally fine. the word feminism is not. people should stop using it.

ps.: in arabic or Asian countries feminism is still appropriate, as women there suffer from suppression and inequality.

[orphan]

the next generation of people aren't gonna think women belong at home, when half of them were raised by their mother; single-handedly (i'm one of them).

your issue w/ clothes kind of has me stumped. years ago i used to help my mom w/ her hobby of buying/selling clothes (buy at goodwill, sell on ebay), i'm quite familiar a wide array of... well clothes. the first thing that made me chuckle was reassigning all button down shirts, to the same side. i'll spare you the hows n whys. aside from half the world being piqued for a few weeks when they get dressed, i'd further resonate to unforeseen trivialities.

at goodwill, the shirts are separated by gender, which is determined by the buttons by people who don't recognize the brand, style, characteristics. essentially in their eyes, the shirts are genderless aside from the buttons.

so w/ all the button down shirts for men and women on the same rack. . . . . that's a lot of smelly men deterring the women from the 1000 ft long shirt rack. (yes women can be smelly too... ;p ) in all fairness, i see more of the women intersted in clothes, than the men. they're usually picking through the old gadgets, appliances, books.. . everything but clothes.

i do kno toddlers used to be dressed in white, i'm not positive when either color became ironed on per say. however, nowadays i can see the colors are in no rush to switch or change due to costs, mfging, marketing blah blah.

hopefully in the future w'ell see moer girls in motorsports (elena myers yeaa!), w/ more guys in teaching kindergarten.

[Anonymous]

HA Feminist are the first ones to make fun of men who show emotion.
The entire "Male Tears" idea is feminist owned and created.

Society doesn't tell men not to show emotion, I know because I am a male. Regardless of what feminist want to believe is real. Being told to suck it up doesn't stop men from being who they are. Generally men don't show emotion as much as women do even as infants. This is NOT a social construct. Feminism is also the first to attack other women (who don't agree with everything they say).

If you do some research you will also see that NOW (National organization for women) have fought to stop men from equal custody as well as other things.

Pink is not as stigmatized as you think either. Pink and florescent pink on males is very common now.

The most noninclusive group currently in existence is feminism. Unless you agree with every single bullshit idea they have, you are shamed, attacked, or ridiculed.

I actually challenge you to find ONE single instance where feminism is fighting to help ANY of the items you listed. I mean an actual article not just believe me because I say so stuff. I can show you a multitude of feminist and feminist groups attacking everything you have mentioned.

Feminism is not about equality. It's definition does NOT equate it's actions.

[ArtDent]

Dudes wore pink in the 80's

[Opinion Owner]

@ArtDent Yeah and pink was considered a male color up until around 1950's.

In 1927, Time magazine printed a chart showing sex-appropriate colors for girls and boys according to leading U. S. stores. In Boston, Filene’s told parents to dress boys in pink. So did Best & Co. in New York City, Halle’s in Cleveland and Marshall Field in Chicago.

[Dubhlann]

We let our son play with dolls if he wanted to. We let our daughter play with nerf guns if she wanted to.

I'm not ashamed to say I've cried more than my share over the past few years. I have emotions. It doesn't make my Y chromosome any less.

I HATE commercials that always depict men as being incompetent at caring for their children, just waiting for mom to come home and rescue them. I'd always take my kids to the grocery store to do the family shopping, even when they were infants. People were shocked that a dad would be out grocery shopping with his 3 kids. Were they shocked that women did that? Of course not. "oh well you've got your hands full there don't you!" uhhh... not any more than the lady in the checkout lane next to us.

Anyway... Keep on keeping on Miss Rowenya. You sound like an excellent mother.

[HunterGuy15]

Feminism is the reason that good men that can provide for women have quit trying to have families or get married. It is not worth the risk of getting cheated on, getting brow beaten or hen pecked, providing most of the income and still doing housework, and being forced to give up the hobbies we love. Feminists have successfully destroyed the nuclear family.

[Tarvold]

I liked your take, but this line really bugged me - "... women can and do work, but there is always that idea in the back of men's minds that women should be at home with children - as shown by the fact that 84% of custody battles end in the woman being awarded custody."

Men don't automagically have in the back of our minds that women should be at home in the kitchen and looking after the children... look around, more men cook than women now. Some men still think women should stay at home and look after the kids, yes that's true, and society is still hugely biased towards women winning custody battles. But these two are completely unrelated problems.

Other than that, I sincerely hope you can stay true in becoming one of the good feminists. Though with your ideals, you really should be calling yourself an equalist. There's a very dark side to feminism that sneaks up on you.

Good luck, and best wishes to you and your son.

[Anpu23]

I watched that video "he for she" by Emma Watson, both the original and a few rebuttals. I am so astounded how the core issues are twisted. I am so wrapped up in this, that I am still amazed at how things are so misunderstood. First let me make it perfectly clear, feminism speaks about men's issues, they point out men's issues claim that they are the only viable voice for gender issues, and do nothing for men at best, or at worst block actual change that would help men (www.avoiceformen.com/.../ as a well known example). Ultimately I am just suggesting that if your goal is a better place for your boy, you may be riding the wrong horse.

[ClariceOwen23]

A Voice For Men does the exact opposite. They're the reason men's issues even exist in the first place.

[Anpu23]

@ClariceOwen23 I used that as an example of how feminism has harmed men. Give me one example of an action by feminism that has directly helped men. Not an action that allows men to help women but an action for mens rights.

[Anpu23]

I just watched a really interesting video on this subject (male children and problems that they face) I would be happy to share it with you if you would like.

[Anpu23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEEu4Qlj8BE that article if you want it.

[ScruffynateAK]

The agendas of mainstream modern feminism are why I'm an egalitarian.
Feminists' major representatives get people fired for making bad jokes, they lie about the pay gap, they lie about rape statistics on college campuses, they lie about sexist gamers, they lie about (for example) Milo Yianoppolous calling for assassinations, some of them even lie about their qualifications, they write articles about sexist air conditioning, they push for mandatory consent classes for MEN, they push for laws allowing for removal of consent post coitus, they try to make mean tweets illegal, they do all of these things and MORE.

You can say they aren't real feminists, but they represent you everywhere, and they have millions of followers in ideology.
There are a lot of issues in your take, A LOT, that I don't need to cover, but I call myself a conservative libertarian egalitarian, and I will never refer to myself or anyone I find intelligent as a feminist.

[Anonymous]

Feminism a movement aimed at allowing women to have full sexual freedom without judgement to sleep with as much aesthetic/attractive males as possible (who all women are hurdling aorund to bend over so they can stick their dick in their ass)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8CVRTSCQAAq4z2.jpg

While trying to tell the other guys who are not in the top 20% of males women are hooking up with in their youth to fuck off and wait for said women when they finally want LTR/Marriage in their 30's and they should be OK that their girl has swallowed down the cum of multiple guys. In addition to shaming the remaining men sexuality and telling them they can't do this, and that but giving the aesthetic attractive guy a pass.

https://i.imgur.com/ryQpwwL.jpg

#FUCKING HYPOCRITES

[TimeSplitters123]

Mate i couldn't have summed it up better, and great with the poster. So very true.

[HunterGuy15]

Terrific poster dude

[M_A_X]

What's that you say? A celebrity talking a bunch of shit and not practicing what they preach?

What a new and interesting concept lol

[ArtDent]

Gender issues are definitely worth discussing.

I don't need an 'invitation' from a feminist woman to discuss them.

The fact that women think it is for them to invite highlights that feminism is anti-egalitarian and therefore a cancer to be eradicated,

[lonerider]

You, my dear GAGer, are going down the wrong path. Feminism has become equivalent to man hating these days. You support equality? We all do. Who are WE? WE are Egalitarians. Be an egalitarian, not a man hating feminist.

[loofah]

When are egalitarians gonna actually do shit about anything?

[Bookwik]

@loofah Funny you should mention that. Considering there is a distinct lack of "equality feminists" doing anything. All there is to see from feminist movements is them denying the existence of female on male rape, and supporting female rapists and domestic abusers in court and attempting to lower the grade requirements on standardized tests for females. You feminists that believe in equality should really step up and do something for a change.

[loofah]

@Bookwik Why are you assuming I am a feminist for saying that? I want to see people fighting for all the things they bring up on Gag. Like I actually want to see it. It feels like a lot of talk but no walk. It feels like revenge on feminism rather than helping the male who needs help. I want to see people actually do shit for men. I try.

[Bookwik]

@loofah Alright alright, my bad. Didn't see where you were coming from on that one, assume the worst.

[Bookwik]

assumed*

[loofah]

@Bookwik I appreciate you saying that.

[ArtDent]

@loofah what is it you think egalitarians should be 'doing' other than living by example?

[loofah]

@ArtDent Basically the sorta things we see other historically underprivileged groups do, because it seems like creating the environment of a movement does bring a lot of change which is ultimately the goal. Even just speaking up about it more in real life. Commercials, poetry jam, billboards, ads, speeches to youth. Make people understand the term egalitarian. Educating the general population on modern male issues and female issues more... issues like male violence, male and female body image problems, sexuality, shift from tradition to modern, marriage concept, improved sex education including educating about variety in genital appearance, statistics and targeted efforts about how females are more predisposed to depression/anxiety while males abuse substances more. Even on Gag, when egalitarian is mentioned... it almost always gets associated with criticizing feminism and talking about men only. If feminism doesn't accurately reflect female issues, what about us too?

[loofah]

@ArtDent It just feels like there is so much passion here and so much silence in real life. On here it seems like egalitarianism should be renamed masculinism. That it's fueled by anger rather than desire to change. What is the point?

[ArtDent]

@loofah you are confusing egalitarian with activist.

[loofah]

@ArtDent No, I am saying egalitarian should be active instead of just complaining.

[ArtDent]

@loofah lol building consensus is part of activism.

You think most of feminism couldn't be described as sitting around bitching and doing nothing?

I've been observing this shit for 40 years. Talking and complaining is always the first step.

[loofah]

@ArtDent No, I am saying I see feminists actually trying to make a difference for their cause, regardless of whether I agree with the issue or not. Talking and complaining is part of it, but too much of it just becomes counterproductive and helps no one... just continues to divide and blame especially when egalitarianism is being misrepresented and not adequately expressing equality. It's like an overweight person complaining about their weight all the time but never doing anything about it. Unless it's an unavoidable medical issue, how are people supposed to handle the complaining? What good is it? Doesn't it become noise?

[ArtDent]

@loofah the egalitarian movement is in it's infancy.

[loofah]

@ArtDent then I hope it finds its footing soon because the idea itself is noble but the execution is honestly unfair. egalitarianism needs females on its side too since it is explicitly about equality of all sides. just look at the downvote discrepancies all over every post about it. It's creating a divide.

[ArtDent]

@loofah it is not at all unlike the vitriol in the 70's when women were doing nothing but complaining and it was decades before laws were changed.

[loofah]

@ArtDent I would be understanding of complaining without action for a while regarding legal discrepancies such as custody laws, child support, and say in abortion... but for other issues that don't involve legality, it doesn't need to be so heavily dramatic talk and no walk. give some substance to the movement so it can get somewhere. men are not considered historically underprivileged and their interests are more represented in positions of power and influence. what's holding y'all back since men seem to be more vocal about this?

[loofah]

@ArtDent anyways, you don't have to answer that. I'm just trying to do a little bit of boosting people in a different direction since I see the passion.

[ArtDent]

@loofah some things can't be legislated an must be driven out of social primacy through creating a counter environment.

Making it unpopular

Drawing distintions in what's right and what's not right.

These are legitimate reasons to do the opposite of what you suggest, which is to shut up about it.

[ArtDent]

@loofah the problem you have is that you cannot separate the elite from the rest of men.

Most men aren't the privileged elite.

And men are going to keep hammering that point home from all angles until people can see it themselves and don't need to be told

[CheerGirl38139]

@ArtDent Bro your profile says your age is 30.

So, which statement are you wildly exaggerating? Your youth or your 40 years of experience?

Just curious.

[ArtDent]

@CheerGirl38139 perhaps you can stick to the issue at hand.

[CheerGirl38139]

@ArtDent well your arguments lose a little bit of steam when you use uber hyperbole to the point of ridiculousness. It's hard to take someone seriously when they make a flat out bullshit statement.

But, carry-on. I was just curious.

[ArtDent]

@CheerGirl38139 you may identify the bullshit in my point or you may try to deflect away from my point by talking about something irrelevant, which you so did.

[CheerGirl38139]

@ArtDent Dude. I was just reading your exchange. Not taking sides. I lean towards antifeminism if anything. But I can see a few of their points.

And who's deflecting? You didn't answer my question. Are you 30? If so, then maybe you've been paying attention to this stuff for 10-12 years max. Or are you actually 60?

[ArtDent]

@CheerGirl38139 Males my age born where I was born have been exposed to this since birth.

Are you really a girl because I don't see a picture.

[CheerGirl38139]

@ArtDent LOL dude. You are FOS.

Males at 6 years old don't know anything but bullfrogs and puppy dogs. And at 10 years old you were playing baseball or some shit. Not learning about feminism.

You should change your screen name to Mr. Hyperbole.

[ArtDent]

@CheerGirl38139 now, back to the substance of what I was saying. Do you have a rebuttal or not?

Thus far the answer is not.

You are deflecting attention away from the points I have made and are trying to make the discussion about me.

It's not about me.

Please feel free to jump in when you are ready to stay on topic

[CheerGirl38139]

@ArtDent My topic was your BULLSHIT sir.

I'm not taking sides in your debate. If I was., I would lean more towards yours. But I can see some of both sides tbh.

[ArtDent]

@CheerGirl38139 wrong. Go back and study culture from the 70s on and point out where I am mischaracterizing.

I'll save you the trouble, you can't.

[ArtDent]

@CheerGirl38139 lol I'm accurately describing conventional wisdom and how folks with an agenda advanced those agendas from the 70's forward.

Contradict me if you think you can. :)

[CheerGirl38139]

@ArtDent DUDE... IF you are 30 years old... You were born circa 1985. Not 1970. This means that____

https://replygif.net/i/981.gif

I keep running into you here and I keep trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it seems you just like to pick arguments and bash females and make shit up.

Try doing some more shrooms... maybe your hallucinations will become more real to you.

[Dubhlann]

Why can't we upvote comments on opinions... seriously there is some great shade being thrown here...

[ArtDent]

@CheerGirl38139

In other words, you don't want to discuss facts but are merely going to persist with deflection.

Can't say that I'm surprised.

I bet you can't even articulate what the positions of the two people who were having the discussion are without going back and reading.

[CheerGirl38139]

@ArtDent oh for fucks sake man. Im done with you. You can't even comprehend what I already wrote.

I said IF I WAS going to take as side (which Im not) - I would lean toward YOURS. But since you can't tell the TRUTH, it's hard to take you seriously.

Have a nice day. :)

[ArtDent]

@CheerGirl38139 oh you're done with me? Because you can't goad me into saying something personal I don't wish to reveal to you? Cool. :)

[CheerGirl38139]

@ArtDent because you told a big fucking lie and I called you on it and you still can't admit it.

✌👉👌

[ArtDent]

@CheerGirl38139 nope, you didn't.

[CheerGirl38139]

@ArtDent what are you bro? Three years old?

Is that your version of "I know you are but what am I?"

😂😂😂 grow up.

[ArtDent]

@CheerGirl38139 you think you caught me in a lie, but you didn't. Having been told you didn't a half dozen times, and redirecting you to the substance of the discussion has done nothing to move you off some silly irrelevant 'gotcha' point you think you have.

It is you who is behaving childishly.

Get back to the topic of discussion, offer a real rebuttal if you can.

[ArtDent]

@CheerGirl38139 to your IRRELEVANT question 'how old are you?' My answer remains ' that's none of your fucking business.'

That's a current picture in my profile, that's how old I am.

Now, get back on topic or kindly stfu. :)

[loofah]

@ArtDent My issue is less about the people who keep quiet and speak civilly about it and more about the ones who are loud on here and do nothing about it in real life. It feels like a passion wasted and it ends up just dissuading people who should be a part of it. That passion is the shit that changes things. A fair chunk of the hammering is inappropriate, because the feminism they're so against isn't the feminism most of the girls on this site believe in. Hear a girl out before you rip her to shreds, seriously. And no need to downplay female struggles. It's not necessary to make a point about male struggles. Not directing at you particular, I mean others.

[ArtDent]

@loofah that would be great if feminists understood mens' struggles. It's been my experience that they are completely close minded about them and will only agree when the male struggle fits in somehow with the feminist agenda.

It's obvious to most men that women are trying to hold all man accountable for the actions of the elite.

You can't just say "well most CEOs are man" without also observing that most homeless people are also man for example

[loofah]

@ArtDent but feminism is a focus on female struggles and bringing those to equality, why are we expecting them to argue for males too? That's what I'd expect someone identifying as egalitarian to do. I'm not expecting LGBTQ activists to focus on straight people issues. Or someone from Black Lives Matter to focus on Asian people issues. No one is arguing that only blacks, females and gays matter. They're historically underprivileged. Recent history included. So you think women here are trying to make men accountable for the elite. That isn't cool. What about them trying to make us accountable for extreme feminists? It's the same shit. Hear an individual out.

[loofah]

@ArtDent Personally, I am American by birth but my parents are immigrants from a patriarchal culture. I am faced with female issues all the time. My female cousins were expected to give up career to be housewives, my mom wasn't allowed an education by her father and my father didn't support it either. If I wanted to identify as feminist, it's not because I wanna burn bras or falsely cry rape or anything anti male. It's because female issues have been a big part of my life and I wanna give special attention to them. It's no different from a person who lost a lot of loved ones to cancer choosing to focus on cancer awareness instead of ALS awareness or Cystic Fibrosis awareness. We're gonna cry the most for what has affected us the most directly. As long as we don't bash others or lessen their right to fight for their cause. One person couldn't possibly fight equally for everything out there.

[ArtDent]

@loofah feminists seek to change the behavior of men without listening to men.

They, by the nature of their ideology (which you rightly point out as anti-egalitarian), must marginalize any voice which would disagree.

So back to your original point being a voice for equality in and of itself is doing something.

[ArtDent]

@loofah just like real policy changes were implemented only after decades of people just talking to each other and change in the expectations we have of politicians and the positions they espouse.

Rabble rousing that is very much a part of the political process for change

[ArtDent]

@loofah have you heard the phrase agitate and you Kate and organize? We are currently in the agitate and educate part of the process with some organization going on

[lonerider]

@loofah @Bookwik @ArtDent @CheerGirl38139 You people are assholes. YOU FORGOT TO TELL ME TO BRING POPCORN!!!

[loofah]

@ArtDent sorry but I'm so dang jaded about this topic. I'm gonna call it quits and just gonna glance at easier-going topics before I memorize pregnancy infections for my exam coming up. Maybe rabble rousing does play a role and maybe people like me play a role in connecting two sides. I don't know. Internet wars seem stupid
@lonerider way to be late to your own party, babe. :p

[SomeOtherGuy]

My issue with self-proclaimed Egalitarians and Equalists is far-reaching. But the viewpoint of MLK on white moderates parallels my viewpoint on the common Egalitarian I meet.

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."
...

[SomeOtherGuy]

...

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

[Bugiman]

ou have point but society isn't all inclusive. Humanity has had societies ofr thousand of years. With slavery, no rights for women and the poor, and so on...

It's only in very recent times a part of the global society has been trying to achieve the all inclusive morals.
And altought we are very far from perfect. If we look into our own recent past or even in other societies that exist today.

We can see we are on a good way and we are chaning for the better. On many places in this planet even today women don't have any rights.

Don't get me wrong, we can still change and we NEED to. But you should be happy that you are worrying about pretty lame stuff like 'certain clothes' being to much for one gender. Not worrying that you can't vote or drive a car, not worry about not having the same basic rights as a man, not worrying that you might be stoned to death if you want to study,...

We might not be perfect but we came a long way already

[Jayded1]

Allow me to say why I think your idea may be off and why I believe in gender equality and not feminism.

"Men are meant to be macho, can-do, stolid figures whereas women are described as "hormonal", "bossy", "emotional" people who are more home-makers than anything else."

See this or something similar is said a lot in a negative light. The thing is from a purely biological stand point, hormone and brain chemistry, this is correct for the average male and female. The problem we have in our society is the people who do not fall in to these categories resent them, they think they are wrong. The most vocal feminists, male and female do not fit the standard categories so they think it is sexism. What we need to do is understand how we feel is ok no matter what it is, not call sexism on anything considered overly masculine or feminine, because THAT is gender equality. Accepting we are different and enjoying our difference.

[IceEverest]

I am not a Feminist nor a Male Right Activist but I liked your take and Idea's behind it.
But unfortunately, most feminist are not like this. The discussion with them often turns out to be "men vs women".
I do not feel the need to label my thoughts under a bound category.
I just talk about Equality.