"Things Not To Say To A Non-Binary Person"

[pinkmuffin]

I'm not too sure on which topic I should post this, but I'm choosing society I guess.

Hey guys, not being hateful

I know I've shared an opinion on another post similar to this topic, but in this one, I'm specifically looking for opinions about this video that I watched (well, mostly).

Obviously, from the not so warm intro to this post, I don't or just can't accept this whole non binary thing. I do however understand why some would think and feel this way (being non binary/ born outside of the "normal" gender spectrum and wanting to be accepted as a non binary person). I fully support and would respectfully agree to use any pronoun a person would want me to use, not because I'm a hypocrite but because I do my best to understand.

Although this video doesn't really help at all, and like any other people who had tried to argue with me about this matter, it never ever makes any sense. I think this video is pretty embarrassing to be completely honest. There was their chance to really put this matter out in public and the chance to make people actually understand them. It was really great publicity but i personally think they totally blew it.

SO. I wanna know what you guys think! But first, these are the two things I find the most confusing and even annoyingly just dumb.

5:35

Wait wait.. So if they're establishing themselves as "gay" then does that mean they're actually agreeing on either one of the two genders or does gay in their dictionary mean "only hot for other non binary people" then?

6:04
"THEN LEARN" well by all means teach us. All we hear is complaining about "not being accepted" or "other people are just disrespectful".

"THEY CALLED ME MADDAM" WELL HOW THE FUCK ARE WE SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHAT TO CALL YOU.

Okay I'm done.

[G-Daz]

WTF the BBC has really hit a low, i thought it was already bad enough. My first thoughts were I was expecting buzzfeed journalism.

The left is very confused, on one hand they say gender doesn't exist. There is no such thing as male or female behaviour because male and female brains are exactly the same and influenced by their environment. On the other hand... they argue there is such a thing as a male/female brain because someone can be born the wrong gender.

Both conflicting reports kinda prove the irrationality of the new age lefty

[ForeverYours39]

well male and female are sexes and have to do with biology. Man and woman are genders and have to do with personal identity. Gender is also something we made up to orient our society and it doesn't actually matter at all.

[G-Daz]

@ForeverYours39 no, this is just something extremist liberals are obsessed with having. If gender were a social construct, no one would be transgendered because everyone would conform to the gender roles expected of them due to biological sex. The most authoritative example of this lies with David Reimer - who, due to a botched circumcision, was surgically altered to a female form and raised as ‘Brenda’ alongside his identical twin brother Brian. If gender were malleable, he would have spent a long and happy life as a woman.

If gender were a social construct, gender norms would not remain utterly consistent across a spectrum which encompasses every culture and society on the planet. Why Can’t a Man Be More Like a Woman? is one of several worldwide meta-studies which finds innate gender traits in egalitarian nations such as Norway and Sweden to be virtually identical to those in truly patriarchal societies such as Qatar and Saudi Arabia. If gender were a social construct, these norms

[G-Daz]

would differ substantially.

If gender were a social construct, human behavior could not be artificially manipulated through the use of medicines. Store shelves abound with all manner of hormonal treatments, more often for psychological reasons than for physiological. Anti-depressants are a prime example, as are several variants of sleep aids and most every PMS remedy on the market. (The latter often include physical remedy, though are still primarily psychological.) Human beings most certainly wouldn’t become uninhibited from the consumption of alcohol if behavior was controlled by society.

There are 3 genders, male, female and retarded

[Elarra]

I don't mind calling you whatever you want me to... but there's only two genders. Hate to break it to the LGBTQ community, but you're either male or female. Live with it. I have to be honest and I know I'll get hate for this but the more I hear about non-binary stuff and gender fluidity and what have you, the more I'm convinced these people are mentally ill. Gay, lesbians, and bi-sexuals, no, but everyone else... something is just not right.

[cipher42]

I don't really see any issue with the video. Like it's not exactly the most comprehensive explanation of non-binary identities, but it's pretty much on par with a lot of the random clickbaitish videos news outlets put out all the time, and it does at least offer a decent overview of what non binary people are like and what they care about.

On the identifying as gay thing- "gay" is kind of used as an umbrella term for LGBT+ identities in general, so there's that. But also I don't think they were actually 100% serious about calling themselves gay- seemed more that they were saying that they tend to be classified as "gay" by other people.

On educating oneself- They literally just said it's fine if you make mistakes as long as you try to educate yourself. Like what more do you want honestly? Some people legitimately are disrespectful or unaccepting, and as long as you're not one you're good.

"How the fuck are we supposed to know what to call you"- ask maybe?

[godfatherfan]

It is NOT my responsibility to learn what to call YOU. If you were born a guy, I am going to call you sir. If you tell me otherwise, POLITELY, I will then call you whatever the fuck you want me to. If you are a douche about it, I will tell you to get fucked and walk away. All this "gender neutral" shit is out of hand

[worldscolide]

Dude, non binary does not exist. there aren't 71 genders, nor are there 37, nor are there 3, there are just 2. Anything beyond that is a mental disorder or a birth defect. So if you look female i will say female pronouns, if you look male i will use male pronouns, if you don't like it, well you don't have to be in this country do you? Gotta love first amendment.

[AdamThomas]

This non-binary stuff is bullshit and these people are mentally ill.

[Machiavelli]

I want to like this comment so bad but afraid to seem like a bigot, I do think you are mostly right. I thin it's nonsense but I don't want to seem too harsh especially if they really have mental issues, I can't be harsh to people like that.

[AdamThomas]

@Machiavelli

I get it. The trouble that other people just go along with it and support these delusions.

[ForeverYours39]

Gender is a made up idea... just because someone doesn't feel connected to socially constructed gender identities doesn't mean there is anything wrong with their brain. There is no scientific fact to back that up.

[AdamThomas]

@ForeverYours39

No it isn't. You're either a man or a woman. Unless you're born intersex, which most of these people are not, and you think you're something else you're deluded. I know you're probably gonna come at me with this "gender is separate to sex" bullshit. All that "identifying as another gender to you biological one" means is that you believe you're something else other than what you are, that's literally all it is and it's an admission that it's not biological but that it's all im the head.

[AdamThomas]

Even then, I can understand transgenderism even if I don't agree with it, but non-binary? Thinking that you're neither male or female when you are? Then you really are deluded.

[Machiavelli]

I didn't respond to what she said because I really can't argue with people who believe you can be other than what's in your underwear. They talk about social construct but society has to have some construct in order to function successfully. You are what you are a boy is the name given to the person with penis, girls have vaginas, if you are a hermaphrodite you are intersex. I wish they would stop all this because it makes my head hurt, and is a distraction from important issues.

[AdamThomas]

@Machiavelli

I think it is important because actually gender dysphoria is a mental illness and those people need proper help. Many of them eventually realise that actually they aren't born in the wrong body at all, and for some of them it's too late because they may have already had surgery and hormone treatment. The pro-trans people never speak about this, although I doubt many of them really know about it either since they tend to ignore anything that doesn't suit their agenda and they'd rather believe what they want to believe and shout "bigot" at anybody who disagrees. This is why the post-op suicide rate is so high.

[Machiavelli]

I know what you mean but I get exhausted because they don't listen. And is you're already aware, they start to label you as a bigot, that's a lot of trouble to go through for someone who's already made up their minds that I hate them. But more power to you for continuing to care.

[AdamThomas]

@Machiavelli

So do I, but I can see how they brainwash people into believing that it's normal, and now they're brainwashing children too and allowing them to transition in some cases at such an early agr when studies show that most children who have such feelings outgrow them. I don't want that shit pushed on my kids.

[Machiavelli]

You're right, you can only protect and guide those close to you. I agree their normalization of this fad is dangerous especially to kids.

[TMarissaWL]

I'm getting sick of this binary crap

Go live in an impoverished nation and see if you still complain about this kind of nonsense. These sorts of things are literally the product of a spoiled generation

[Anonymous]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkONHNXGfaM

0:00-6:04

i'll just leave this here...

[DinaM]

Seriously? You're going to let Ben "Arabs like to bomb crap and live in open sewage" Shapiro speak for you? If that guy said the sky was blue, I'd look up to check.

[rjroy3]

@DinaM That's because you're a caustic person.

[DinaM]

@rjroy3 Better to be caustic than to be toxic.

[rjroy3]

@DinaM As it appears, they go hand in hand with you.

[DinaM]

@rjroy3 What, is Ben Shapiro your boyfriend or something, since you feel the need to defend his honour? I mean, cool if you are, but I thought he was married with kids.

[rjroy3]

@DinaM I guess I didn't realize how toxic lol. My mistake.

[Rissyanne]

I have seen this before... Ben makes a lot of sense.

[nasarita]

Roses are red
Violets are blue
This is not a poem
But the gender isn't a binary
And they need to stop

[lovelyhoneybones]

You can't say anything to them because they're not real. 😂 😂 😂

[HeatNation1]

lol, people actually take this stuff seriously. if you have a slit between your legs, you're a female. if you have a penis, you're a male. idc about any made up non sense

[lukazey]

Come close. Closer. Just a little bit more. I'm going to whisper something in your ear my love...

THERE ARE ONLY 2 GENDERS

[AnastasiaKing]

If you have a dick your pronoun is he
if you have a pussy your pronoun is she.

There's no such thing as 'preferred pronouns'.

[cipher42]

Who made you the supreme overlord of language usage? Like you can go ahead and be an asshole, but don't expect everyone else to follow suit.

[rjroy3]

@cipher42

To be fair, using the proper terminology and being emphatic about it doesn't make her an overlord of language lol. It just makes her correct. Now if she's to take it a step further trying to tell you what terminology to use, then she's being an overlord. Which is kind of what non-binary people and supporters are doing today. Telling others what they can and cannot say, when other people are using the correct terms.

[rjroy3]

I can call a tree a car all day long and i'll never be correct and for you to tell me the tree is a tree would be entirely correct. If you walked up and told me to not fucking call the tree a car, then you're being a language overlord and an asshole lol

[cipher42]

@rjroy3 That's not the proper terminology? It's not correct? Pronouns are based on gender, not sex.

And actually, if you call a tree a car and it catches on to the point where most people understand "car" to mean "tree", then you are correct. Because that's how language works.

[rjroy3]

@cipher42

Sex and gender are directly related and is therefore irrelevant in this case. It is the correct terminology, even if a small subgroup of people choose to take offense to it.

For sake of argument, tree car would only catch on as terminology for tree if it was no longer used to refer to a car. So while yes that's how language works there's a requirement of there not being a long-term understanding commonly used. Just using the word enough in a repurposed manner isn't enough.

[cipher42]

@rjroy3 Not really. Gender and sex are related (in our context), but not the same. Sex is about genetalia, gender is not. Pronouns are completely about gender, but in the linguistic sense, which is entirely not related to sex.

And that's also not true. Just look at how "literally" has developed a separate meaning while still retaining its original one. In any case, the point is that pronouns are commonly used to refer to gender and not sex, and as such a person's genetalia does not wholly determine what pronouns are used for them.

[rjroy3]

@cipher42

Yes really. The fact sex does not equal gender doesn't change the fact of a direct relationship. Considering how they align in respect to the pronoun usage there is effectively no difference. You don't pick your gender.

I haven't heard the term literally used in the proper context other than to point out it's misuse in years lol. Literally does fall under my example. Its common usage is no longer classical usage.

[cipher42]

@rjroy3 There is a difference though. Sex is to do with genetalia, gender is not. As such, pronouns are not based on genetalia, and the opinion owner is incorrect. And no, you can't choose your gender, but that has nothing to do with this issue.

I have. Perhaps you simply remember one instance more than another. And in any case, both meanings are currently correct, according to the people who make such judgements for a living anyhow.

[rjroy3]

@cipher42

The issue is you're playing around with gender and gender identity. Your gender is what it is and you have no say in it. Your gender identity is what you personally identify with. You don't have to personally identify with your gender, but it is still in fact your gender. So if we agree you can't choose your gender, then you were off base in basing your statements to Anastasia, in referring to pronoun usage. Considering how that was the basis of this convo it has everything to do with this issue.

She accurately used those pronouns and you reamed her saying it was incorrect.

When I think common usage I think day to day speech among people out and about. That is my subjective experience tho.

[cipher42]

@rjroy3 no im not? I just agreed that you can't change your gender. But no, that doesn't mean I was off base, because once again sex is distinct from gender. Just as gender and gender identity are distinct, so are gender and assigned gender, which is typically based on sex. Basically, someone can be of the male sex but be a female gender-wise, in which case they would use female pronouns.

[rjroy3]

@cipher42
" Basically, someone can be of the male sex but be a female gender-wise, in which case they would use female pronouns."

False.

[cipher42]

@rjroy3 why though? You still haven't actually made an argument for why that's the case.

[rjroy3]

@cipher42

The argument is that gender, which cannot be chosen or changed is in a direct relationship with biological sex. Only gender identity is based upon personal perception and therefore it is only in the context of gender identity that one can "choose" to be a gender of which they are not, in regards to their personal belief in how they align with cultural norms of their gender. All gender identity refers to is personal perception. So while they may identify as one thing, that does not make them that which they feel. That's why saying sex and gender are two different things is irrelevant. Because while they are not equal they do have a direct relationship that cannot be removed from one another. Gender while typically referring to cultural, rather than biological still has that biological component. Biology cannot be disregarded, which is what you have to do in order claim that someone of male sex can be female gender and vice versa

[cipher42]

@rjroy3 I've agreed that you can't choose your gender. However what I don't agree with is that gender has to be the same as sex. Gender and sex are related in that the categories that make up gender are built primarily on sex- essentially the sex-based cultural roles and expectations are what make up gender. However, that relationship doesn't mean that someone of a certain sex has to be the "matching" in gender, because sex does not determine one's interests, personality, or appearance preferences, which are some of the factors that make up gender. Basically, just because gender categories originated such that they are modeled around sex doesn't mean that being a certain sex makes one fit perfectly in the gender category based on that sex.

[AnastasiaKing]

@rjroy3 Thankyou so much for having my back on this lunatic.

[cipher42]

Sweetie I don't see you defending your argument. Maybe try actually using rational arguments yourself before calling other people lunatics?

[AnastasiaKing]

@cipher42 I don't have to
he already did
and i've already reached the limit of retarded i can take in a day.

[rjroy3]

@cipher42

"However what I don't agree with is that gender has to be the same as sex. "
That's fine. That's not what I'm saying anyways. I'm not equating gender to sex.

"Gender and sex are related in that the categories that make up gender are built primarily on sex- essentially the sex-based cultural roles and expectations are what make up gender. "
Yep yep.

"However, that relationship doesn't mean that someone of a certain sex has to be the "matching" in gender, because sex does not determine one's interests, personality, or appearance preferences, which are some of the factors that make up gender. "

Now you're breaking into gender identity vs gender. Your gender is your gender. If you don't exhibit every single trait that's common to your gender that doesn't change your gender, because there's always that biological factor that cannot be removed.

[rjroy3]

No need for name calling Anastasia: D

[cipher42]

@rjroy3 "Now you're breaking into gender identity vs gender" No, I'm not. I'm not saying that gender can be changed, merely that a person's gender doesn't have to "match" their sex. Someone can be male sexwise but still have a female gender. If you agree that a person's gender doesn't have to be the same as their sex, I don't see what your issue with the rest is.

[rjroy3]

@cipher42

" If you agree that a person's gender doesn't have to be the same as their sex, I don't see what your issue with the rest is."

Ah, we're getting a hiccup on terminology. When I say sex isn't the same as gender, i'm saying that sex /= Gender. They are not word for word the same in definition. But I do say they are always in line with one another, meaning that a gender is associated to a particular sex and that a separation of the two is impossible. Due to the fact that gender, although not typically directly referring to the biology of the individual, is not exclusionary of the biology. The sex of the individual is within the description of the gender and there's just no getting around that.

[cipher42]

@rjroy3 Why do you believe that's the case? Based on what reasoning? Sex perhaps factors into gender to some degree (or socialization based on sex more likely), but I disagree that it's so integral a part of the definition that a person's sex determines their gender, and so do most experts on the subject. So why do you believe otherwise? Like, an actual reason, not just "this is how I think it is so this is how it is".

[rjroy3]

@cipher42

I think a more productive road would be to define, barring someone making a conscious choice to choose a gender not in line with their sex. What criteria must take place for a male to be considered female, regardless of his opinion? As in he's a guy. He both considers himself a male, calls himself a male and in all regards he views himself as a male. What would need to happen for him to be female despite what he wants?

[cipher42]

@rjroy3 There's no way we can see into other people's minds, so that's really not productive at all. Until we have some kind of mind reading technology, our best option is to just accept what people say. Like classifying people as religious or not, it's only the person themselves who can really make that classification. Unless you think you should have the authority to tell a self-identified Christian that they're actually a buddhist just because they're culturally buddhist and you think cultural religion matters more than religious identity?

[rjroy3]

@cipher42

Well if there's no way to define what makes someone male or female other than their word, then that's not science. That's subjective personal opinion. That's not how science works. Even with your example of religious belief there is objective criteria for what makes a person of a particular religious sect. If someone holds a subset of beliefs of a given religion that is objective criteria outside of just their opinion. That's kind of like arguing that even if you hold every single Liberal ideological belief and none of your beliefs stray from that ideology, that as long as you say you're not a Liberal then you're not a Liberal. That's just nonsensical.

[rjroy3]

@cipher42

Now we could talk about how do we KNOW they really believe what they say they do, but that's another argument entirely. Assuming those are actually their beliefs, then realistically speaking there is an objective truth even if they choose to not take on the name that accurately defines them. Like is Hitler a good guy, just because he believes he's a good person? Or is there an objective truth?

[cipher42]

@rjroy3 I mean if you want science, there are brain scans that show that transgender people do in fact have brains that more closely resemble those of cisgender people of the gender they identify as than those of the gender they were assigned at birth. But as anyone who knows anything about science is aware, science isn't 100% accurate all the time, especially about things like people's minds and how they work. Or would you suggest that mental illness cannot be scientifically determined just because there's often no way to determine whether someone's mentally ill other than their own word? Because I'd say that's pretty stupid.

[cipher42]

Either way, you're clearly vastly oversimplifying things. Take the mental illness example for instance- it's often not possible to tell if someone is mentally ill without them explaining their symptoms themselves, but sometimes it is. Not black or white, not one way or the other as you apparently would like to have it. If you wanna talk about "unscientific", look at what you're doing. Either way though, this is why we have experts who can diagnose people's conditions based on the symptoms they describe. And since the scientific experts on this issue are as far as I can tell with me on this, I don't see how you can actually hold any claim to being on the side of science at all.

[rjroy3]

@cipher42

"Either way, you're clearly vastly oversimplifying things. "
I was working with the example you gave.

"If you wanna talk about "unscientific", look at what you're doing."

Point out specifically anything i've said that was unscientific or had zero scientific support outside of my clearly stated opinions.

"Either way though, this is why we have experts who can diagnose people's conditions based on the symptoms they describe. And since the scientific experts on this issue are as far as I can tell with me on this, I don't see how you can actually hold any claim to being on the side of science at all."

Gender theorists really only came about in the 70s and their claims have been contested among the scientific community since the very beginning. So to approach this subject from the standpoint of, "well the science is in and it's on my side" is kind of silly to be honest. Sure, if you look at studies specifically from certain psychologists they might agree with you (continued)

[rjroy3]

@cipher42

But there psychologist and scientists from neighboring fields who disagree with the claims of gender. So I'm going to go with I support other fields that stick to the scientific method closely, over psychology. Yes, psychology does have a lot of scientific research. Butit also has a lot of woo woo research that really isn't scientific. Like the approach in determining gender.

[cipher42]

@rjroy3 Mostly what I was taking issue with was how you seemed to imply that because a condition cannot be accurately diagnosed without the person self-reporting it, that condition cannot be scientifically validated. Unless that's a misunderstanding and you understand that self-diagnosis is necessary? In which case I don't see what issue you took with my position to begin with. In any case, this is all rather off topic, as the actual issue is whether sex determines gender, which I and most experts on this issue believe it does not.

Also, why the fuck talk about science if you're just gonna discredit it as soon as it disagrees with you? Cherrypicking much?

[rjroy3]

@cipher42
"Unless that's a misunderstanding and you understand that self-diagnosis is necessary?"
Yes, self-diagnosis to a certain extent is necessary. I merely disagree with the claims of that particular group of psychologists that believe you can be a man, but of female gender.

"in this case who claim In which case I don't see what issue you took with my position to begin with."
My issue was having no objective criteria for determining gender outside of a conscious decision of the individual. And since brain scans side with biology as well... doesn't help the case against gender and sex being strongly linked.

" In any case, this is all rather off topic, as the actual issue is whether sex determines gender, which I and most experts on this issue believe it does not."
That depends on who you're claiming are experts and who are not. Because many experts disagree on this subject matter.

[rjroy3]

@cipher42

"Also, why the fuck talk about science if you're just gonna discredit it as soon as it disagrees with you? Cherrypicking "

The entire basis of what you say is the presumption that science is on your side. I point to how one thing or another is scientific, then you follow up with 1. Science isn't always 100% accurate and 2. Share a given stance as scientific.

When that base level stance is contested in the scientific community. It's hard to make the claim that the field of gender studies is even really a science. Yes there have been scientific studies, because the scientific method was used for particular aspects of it. But in almost every area where the strongest of claims are made it's not in the areas where true hard science was used.

Otherwise when a brain scan came in showing the opposite of their claim that wouldn't be disregarded.

[rjroy3]

I point to how one thing or another is unscientific*

[cipher42]

@rjroy3 The brain scans don't side with "biology"? Again "there are brain scans that show that transgender people do in fact have brains that more closely resemble those of cisgender people of the gender they identify as than those of the gender they were assigned at birth". Aka transgender people who identify as male tend to have brains similar to those of male cisgender people. Read more carefully.

As for my experts, I'm referring to the majority of Psychological associations, including the one that publishes the manual that defines mental illness for the psychiatric community in general.

And do you have an actual reason to believe that sex is the primary determining factor for gender other than just that you find it convenient? Because so far you haven't given one.