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All languages need a lot of change or at least many languages not just the English language. The problem for example in many language is to have words for a man or a woman who are single. In a way you see that languages are based on christianities ideas of keep the status up high was more important then how things actually in nature are and you feel the shame of it in the languages. We should have therefor no language based on religion and it's ideals who are a bit discriminating about certain circumstances as we even see in scientific books that there is still a lot discrimination for certain circumstances. Like the church like to see people married. But not all people are married neither mother or father. So there are many words missing for certain circumstances that in nature exist.
Wow, you're a whiny little child, aren't you? If you think English is "sexist", you had better NEVER allow yourself to be exposed to German. Your brain would dissolve and ooze out your ears from the heat of your intemperate outrage.
Funny thing, though, by any political or economic measure, Germany appears to be far less "sexist" in policy or business practices than is the USA. Therefore, you silly, infantile claims are just that, silly and infantile.
Unfortunately, the German workplace is highly sexist, especially towards mothers and women of childbearing age.
Sweetheart, I speak German. My mother is from germany, I was raised bilingual. That said, while German has gender for nouns, I'm not aware of it having similar issues with unequal "equivalent" male and female terms. It might, but my primary language is English, and English is what I know the most about. And as I noted in the take you apparently didn't read, this sexism isn't anyone in particular's fault, and I'm not assigning any blame for it, only noting that it exists.
Very good take and as you say most of the sexism is subconcious almost innocent in its historical context. The only thing I would say is that while the task looks almost massive, the older members of GaG (myself included) would say that the changes in everyday English been spoken have been huge over the last 30 years to reflect the enhanced and justified strengthening of the position of women in society thinks like when I was young it was always "Chairman" rather than "Chairperson" and even on the rare occasion a woman held the post, she was still the "Chairman" so at least the rate of change has accelerated to a much faster pace after hundreds of years of snails pace. I would be a supporter of gender neutral language as a solution.
Who gives a shit about your feminist bullshit?
Get a fucking life instead of worrying about this kind of bullshit. I guess the whole world is in such a great state that people have nothing better to worry about than fucking words. Some people are worried about eating ans staying alive, and you are worried about fucking words. Commonly known as first world problem - i. e. unimportant bullshit.
"Who gives a shit about your feminist bullshit?" You, apparently. If there's so many more important things to worry about, how about you go worry about them instead of concerning yourself with the opinion of some rando on the internet?
The words you are so concerned about don't hurt anything. But feminists DO hurt things.
The irony is that feminists hurt women more than anyone else. YOU are the ones judging women, insulting them, telling them they are somehow inferior. Re-read your take. It's full of negative judgments about women.
YOU are the one taking words and assigning negative connotations to some and positive connotations to others. When in reality those words are neutral. They only become positive or negative if someone judges them that way. And you are the one doing it.
It's not personal judgement that gives things negative or positive connotation, its usage. Learn some linguistics sweetheart.
That was an evasion if I ever saw one.
It's an explanation of how language works. "Bad" doesn't mean bad just because that's how I personally use it, but because that's how people in general use it. "Spinster" doesn't have a negative connotation because I think it does, but because it's used in more negative contexts than "bachelor". This can be proven via collocation- how often a specific word appears with other words. Spinster more often appears with words like "old", "gossipy", and such things. Bachelor does not.
First, when I say "you" I don't necessarily mean you personally. Yes the connotations of words are societal and change over time. Some have changed in just my lifetime.
The meaning of a word, and the judgement of whether that "thing" is good or bad, are two different things.
Let's use the word housewife for example. Most would agree what a housewife is in general. But regardless of the word, the thing the word represents is the real issue. The word itself is irrelevant. Is being a housewife a good thing? A bad thing? Or neither?
*IF* some portion of society views housewife as a negative, then what should they do about it? Should they continue propagating that negative view? Or should they try to elevate the perceived status of a housewife?
Feminists do the former. They are perpetuating the negative connotation that there is something wrong with being a housewife. In doing so they are the ones judging and degrading women.
Women who choose to be a housewife don't perceive it as negative. There is no need to elevate them to the "higher" status of men, because they don't view it in those terms. There is no need to elevate them, unless their status is somehow judged to be inferior in the first place. So who is doing that judging?
You're ignoring the fact that language is learned. Thus, the way in which people use the word commonly shapes its meaning, and thereby the judgements inherent in the choice of that particular word. Acknowledging the biases and judgements inherent in a word doesn't strengthen those judgements or biases, it weakens them because it allows them to be recognized and made explicit. Implicit bigotry is the hardest kind to fight specifically because it's so difficult to identify and easy to escape blame for.
I can understand your point but you , need to get back to the origin of the words. Governor mean boss which be either sex. Governess means teacher. Master mean head which be either sex. Mistress some think is kept lady female part of an affair but really it means mistress of the house thats where MRS comes from the rest of places the use of ESS simply denotes the sex personally i dont like. It is the way words are twisted to something different like GAY, the of that is totally different to its root meaning...
You're claiming "man" is used too much when it should be gender natural terms, but it started out as gender natural. It meant "person" and its “women” that became special within English. Women meant “female human” originally.
History is important. It doesn’t change the situation now but claiming English is inherently sexist isn’t correct at all. It only came to mean male because there wasn’t a specific word for men well women had their own terms.
The origin doesn't matter, current connotation does. And the existence of "female" as a strange or other category is not a good thing, it's the very issue I was talking about- where women are seen as inferior and strange. There is a tendency to see maleness and masculinity as the norm, with femininity a deviation from that. This is sexist, and regards men as the primary population and the population that should get the most privilege in social structure.
That makes no sense given the history and, well we can argue about what it means to people today… history matters for things like this. It matters why English isn't a grammatical gender language (like German or French).
English doesn’t have the issues you’re claiming it does. If anything, the only issue is that, due to history, “man” is not gender neutral when used with another word (e. g. mankind) as it should be. It comes from “mann” (link below). Think about this – if “man” suddenly meant the same as “person” and not “male” when spoken alone would the language have the same problems you are seeing? It seems to shock people that, when you used correctly, “man” is a gender natural term when attached to something else.
http://www.bosworthtoller.com/022348
Other languages have the male term mean more. English just doesn’t have many gender specific words.
Thank you @RandomBritishGuy94 . This girl has absolutely no understanding of grammar, etymology, and morphology. I studied it thoroughly in University so when I saw this feminist's post I cringed so badly.
History only matters if its effects stick around. For instance, as noted in the take, the word "child" used to have feminine connotations, but it no longer does and this history of it no longer influences our use of "child" vs "girl" vs "boy". So the connotation of words and thus the effect they have on our cognition is not changed by their history. Though yes, history changes how a language reflects on the society it is created by. But that's not really what I was primarily concerned with when I wrote the take.
Wow. Are the feminists really that desperate for a new target?
If English is SO offensive to you, then do the rest of us a favor and stop using it. That way, we won't have to read stupid shit like this :-)
You know, since the website requires that all topics be posted in English ;-)
Well, I guess those differences are due to the past when women didn't work so why would you have a female form for a profession women weren't doing? And somehow it didn't change completely even now. I guess it will change with time. As for madame and mistress, I think it's really kind to use such cute words for those. I don't see why women should get offended for it.
Sexism is deliberate intent to suppress one over the other. Unintentional preference for one based on historical experience is not grounds for an accusation. It's a cockamaney conspiracy theory concocted by the self important. Don't fall for this stuff.
Languages are the by product of the ever-evolving (Or in some cases, devolving) nature of human communication. More professions traditionally were male, because women back then were less interested. The language hasn't always reflected that these attitudes have changed. But to go out of one's way to feel victimized by that is crazy.
Did you even consult an etymologist in this Cipher, or did the gender studies "prof)" dictate the narrative?
I really don't think sexism needs to be deliberate at all. And the issue here is not with the causes of these discrepancies so much as with the effects. As I said in the take, this is not anyone's fault, and all I'm asking for here is that people be aware of these inequalities and make an effort to change them. What part of that is so unreasonable?
I would like to say I give a damn how words are used "your a sissy " you throw like a girl " but in all honesty I don't care in the slightest I don't mind how English works as long as I'm not being told or forced to be "house wife " ignorant, ware dresses and skirts , hold my tounge in a man's presence, or forced to be of Muslims religion we all good I go about my planing and business and everyone else stay the fuck away from me.
Maybe it's good enough for you, but I think we can do better and will continue to advocate for that.
While I agree some of your points... I just can't bring myself to care. The English language will always change, for the better and for the worse. After all, I find that how you say it is a far more effective way in bringing across how you want to display it as. Be it to inflict harm or to support. But hey, was an interesting read.
It will always change, so I think we should put in effort to change it for the better.
Whether we put in effort or not... I think isn't worth the investment, especially when there are far bigger concerns, for both concerned with sexism and those who are not. Besides, something like this is going to have a very very interesting effect on an already divided humanity as a whole.
Maybe then, I'll care enough about the interesting effects and see if people will actually be more resentful and/or fervent with this... 'issue'
You can think that, but I don't. You can have other concerns, but that doesn't mean mine are invalid. You can not care about this, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't care either. So, what's your issue here?
Hmm? No issue, it's just what I think.
I've never paid attantion to these differences you mentioned, they don't call so much attention. Classical arabic is so much more of that, as there is a long list of words (adjectives) that are neutral in meaning and of which the female counterparts' meaning is offensive, degrading or a plain insult. ( ex : Sakit: man falling vs Sakita: whore ; Mosib: man who is right vs Mosiba: catastrophy) and many others.
Once again a feminist wants to reinvent the Spanish Vax. If you want equality in a language, learn Hungarian. Its one of the hardest, but there everyone is equal. Oh, wait, you wanted to invent something new in the name of Feminism. Well, you can't as this is already existing in another language. Sorry to burst your bubble. And people asks why no one is taking feminists and stupid SJWs seriously. Well, this is one of the reasons.
Orrr we can change the existing language. As it has already been changing. If you don't want to deal with feminists, go form your own country where feminism is illegal.
In my country this language barrier doesn't exists and we're living well without feminists. The country is called Hungary and our language is what about you're dreaming of. But my country lives well without feminists as they're a pain in the ass and doesn't serve any real purpose, but only whining and hating men for no particular reason (Okay, the real reason that you chicks can't get a partner, because you don't have any manner, so no gentleman want any of you around. That's the reason of your whining.).
K, so why go on the internet where feminists exist? Why not stay away entirely, out of issues that aren't even about your native language anyways? And plenty of feminists can get partners, myself included. Plenty of feminists are actually men, especially where I live. Sorry your world view is so skewed, but maybe try not to project your personal beliefs on the rest of us?
Feminism was great back in the past. Now its all about whining about completely useless and trivial things, like this language stupidity. You want to modernize something? Join the civilized 21st century instead of being a snowflake.
How is skewing someone's odds of being convicted in a court case "trivial"? If you're so modern and civilized, how is it you can't read?
I can read, but a biased stupid liberal court case isn't valid in the eyes of civilized and normal people, where you're crying over completely trivial stupidity as this one. Do you know what true feminists, like Grace Kelly were, are? Honest, proud woman with a spine. You feminists lack any of these elements. You're not feminist, but an oversensitive joke, who have problem being a woman, and want to be and act like a man instead. Do you know why you won't ever be equal with a man. Because you can't act and play a man. That's the reason a true man won't ever be a woman either, regardless what you liberal snowflakes try to advertise. You can't act who you're not and never was. And it won't ever changed by you're trying to redefine the whole goddamned universe, because you can't co-exist with something that is on this planet. Go, hitchhike a new planet and screw that one with your stupid ideals. Leave our civilization alone if you can't fit into it.
It's a study hon. If you're gonna start calling scientific studies biased and useless because they don't fit your personal agenda, I'm not going to waste my time talking to you. I'm not going to talk to someone who can't accept evidence that contradicts them, and who claims other people are whiny and oversensitive all while flinging insults at them just because they have differing views.
Like, you're literally telling me I shouldn't live on the same planet as you just because I have different ideas about how society is and should be structured. How am I the oversensitive snowflake here when you're clearly the one incapable of dealing with simple disagreement?
It's a study financed by mentally ill idiots like George Soros. Where from I know this? Because I worked along with counter-intelligence for a time and we've investigated all these stupidity this idiot and his pals has created and wanted to spread in my country via so called NGOs. These studies are all fiction, created by seriously mentally ill people. Its better if you get used to this fact honey, because the thing you want to believe in, all those studies, all those evidences are fake and has no true background in the reality. You're living in a dream world what some mentally sick prick, some of these pricks are way over 80 and peeing into their bed, has created for you and your naive kind.
Until you have this mentality, believing in this sick fairy tale what some mentally sick prick has created for you, yes, its better if you don't live on this planet, because you guys are just collapsing civilization and its moral values. You guys don't have a clue who or what you're serving in the reality. You guys are played by those pricks who have created all these fake evidences and studies you want to believe in so much, because it sounds so great, but has no true background in the reality. You're part of one of the greatest scam of the 21st century that is intending to collapse countries, nations, cultures and civilizations, and what is worse, you don't even realize it as you're that blind and dumb.
Again, you're demonstrating your oversensitivity and inability to contend with views other than your own. If you can't have a conversation like an adult, I'm blocking you. So please, provide actual sources evidencing these studies to be biased, and do so without insulting me, or I'm blocking you. As I said, I have no interest with arguing with people who live in a fictionalized reality and project their insecurity and oversensitivity onto other people.
Its not oversensitivity. Its called experience what you truly lack of. It was my work for some time. But if you don't believe me, travel to Central and Eastern Europe because there are so many investigations against that fucked up cult that is spreading all this BS in that region. Why? Because everything you guys are believing in is a LIE.
ugh...
I'll give you points for a good take. I think it's making a mountain out of a molehill, but your take was interesting for sure.
You won't find many women who are offended at being addressed as Madam or Ma'am though.
As I said in the take, this can have serious consequences, as in gender bias in trials. But yes, the sexual connotation with madam is especially weak, but it's an interesting example that fits into the pattern of female terms being sexualized.
what's the big fucking deal, i suggest you stop practicing English and start learning another female friendly language.
some humans in this world are a real waste of Oxygen.
What the big fucking deal is is addressed in the "why does it matter" section of the take. I suggest you brush up on your English so you can actually understand what I've written.
nothing really matters until someone address it, and you did :)
"... studies have in fact shown that..." "A more damning study however..."
It'd be very helpful if you could start linking your sources.
They were in readings I did for a class and I didn't want to look them up while writing the take, but I can find them when I have time
its very much changing in england today. its humankind today like all those in the police are persons and atresses are now actors but have to say, while i respect this change i do wonder if it really matters that much. better to address other inequalities in my view than to attack a language of the past
You've developed a very clear and thoughtful approach. I've thought about these things, too. I agree that our language skews things to favor male authority, but today those connotations have been sliding away. The male terms are becoming neutral which, while not entirely the best way, is a good start.
Governor addresses both men and women. Same for president. Bitch originally addressed dogs. Before you come up with something suspecting an entire sex of unequal treatment, please do your research. What the hell do you mean child used to be a feminine title? Where are reading this at?
Those are examples of one of the exact things I mentioned in the take, and in fact what I suggest should happen with words like this in general. Clearly I am not the one who didn't do their research, since you couldn't even be bothered to fully read my take before commenting.