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Oh good, another "I don't understand etymology, or the evolution of language and the words in a language, but I do see the word 'man' in things and I'm pissed off enough and ignorant enough that I'm gonna raise a stink about it, and insist we change our language because of my sensibilities!"
Go be quiet somewhere.
Etymology doesn't matter. I mean it does if we're talking about how the language reflects on the culture that uses it, but my take was largely concerned with how the language INFLUENCES the people using it really. Try understanding my argument before attempting to counter it.
Unless you honestly believe that the fact that I grew up saying "spokesman" and not "spokesperson" has effected me subconsciously to the point where I think only men can be the mouthpiece for something, your entire argument is silly garbage, and in reality the only thing that matters is the etymology, which explains why it was "spokesman," and how that is not exclusionary.
There are studies on this, particularly regarding "he/him" pronouns and masculinely gendered professions. Do you need me to cite them? Because I can.
you can cite anything you want. Have you ever looked in peer reviewed journals? Especially ones that exist outside the hard sciences?
You can get ANYTHING published.
The fact a study is published does not mean the study has any legitimate authority. And any study of the etymology of the language tends to make anything you would cite look laughably ignorant, like it was conceived of and written by a child.
Sooo science is fake when you want it to be. Honey, how much linguistics have you actually studied? How much anything have you studied?
media1.tenor.com/.../tenor.gif?itemid=8220975
You gave enough of a fuck to comment..
This made sense.
media.giphy.com/media/53lN577WPCFGM/giphy.gif
Why single out English? The Japanese language is spoken differently by men and women. And don't get me started on French, Spanish, German, and the other languages where a table or chair has a gender! That is about the stupidest aspect of a language...
Because that's what I and most people on this site speak. I even said that this wasn't a issue particukar to English in the take.
Perhaps it is better to use gender-neutral terms, like actor, waiter, etc. Which are of course the traditional male terms, but they have also been used as generic terms for some time, and are shorter and more logical than adopting actress, waitress, etc.
Does it really matter if the person bringing your food has a penis or not?
... unless, of course, they stirred your drink with it, as was on an internet video a while back...
Gender neutral "male" terms is what I suggested in the take. Did you actually read that part?
Very well stated and articulated. Not sure I agree with it 100% but I do try to use non gendered terms when I can.. Particularly when I don't want to create a picture of just men in anyone's head.
But there are 2 sexes, male and female and there will always be words to describe them.. but I agree they should not used to divide them.
Yeah, having distinct words for distinct genders/sexes isn't a bad thing as such. Though I somewhat disagree with the hyper binary classification of people, seeing as it denies the reality of the existence of folks like intersex individuals.
Binary words came to be, because we are sexual/biologically binary. that is for 99.9% of us. yes there are biologically inter sexed individuals, but they are the exception not the rule, and I think its great we are moving to a society that recognizes the smallest minorities, but basically we are Binary species as are nearly all the animals on the planet. Hence the "Hyper" binary words..
I understand that we are trying to make a kinder world.. but really labels won't do it.. Mind sets will.. like Doing to others as you would want others to do to you.. Respect for others, regardless of what they can do for you.. and Find out what is hateful to others, then dont do that.. Changing peoples way of thinking about others..( ALL OTHERS) is what we need to do...
I realize why our system is a binary. I simply mean that we often insist on sticking to that binary even where it would be inaccurate. Which is pretty silly- like I wouldn't say "no people have red hair" just because only 1% of the population does.
And I think you underestimate the effect of language on cognition. It's not everything, sure, but it certainly does play a significant part.
Well I liked your post.. it was well done and though out..
I like the red hair reference..
I am also good on the thumbs down somebody gave me, I just wonder if they read out entire exchange? I also dont believe I was negative, to thumbs down, can you explain what was worth hitting that? For my fruition.. I am curious.
god, I have not having an edit function
Thanks. Ya, I don't deny the appearance of a binary, so I get where it comes from, I just think it's a bit inaccurate, especially nowadays when we know better.
I agree with most of it but I disagree that it's wrong to use the word man to describe all of man kind.
MAN is present in the word woMAN and huMAN so that's just the obvious word to describe them all.
Also having said all that, there still needs to be words to describe feminine things that you might not like to suck it up. Spoonful of concrete and harden the fuck up.
I was aware of this but it was never offensive. I don't think it is a big deal. As a female, who gives a crap if nobody says 'governess?'
The issue isn't the use of governess, but it's different and inferior meaning from "governor".
I understand that governess has a different meaning than governor. But i personally still don't really mind it. I get why people could be upset and this information is really interesting but I don't think it matters to me
Sure, that's fine. It can be irrelevant to you, but it's still an instance of sexism in language.
yep.
Interesting, but English is not the only language that has feminines and masculines french does as well do you believe french is also sexist? If you aren't familiar with the french language that's fine I was just curious to know what you thought of other languages with feminines and masculines.
First world problems
I dont care and its not really something to complain about.
Its only made harder when you make it neutral.
If this isn't something to complain about, then why are you complaining about my complaints?
Cause this is what this site is about
This site is also about writing and sharing takes. So why is complaining okay when you do it and not when I do it?
Spanish is an interesting language, what do you think about Spanish people when they first use the English language, they often forget to use the pronouns, and sometimes mix there genders up. Unfortunately I can't really empathize with your argument, I see the world threw a middle aged white guys eyes. I personally don't understand these ideas about sexism generally i believe in a women and children first world and I tag along afterwards doing my duty.
I've thought about this before, but never this in depth. Very interesting Take.
I guess we will just start calling them “Personhole Cover” rather then manhole cover. Whatever.
While I don't agree with what you're saying, you're presenting your arguments in a rational and reasonable way, which is very rare to see in debates (especially debates regarding sexism), so I have to give you props for that.
What is it in particular you don't agree on?
A few things:
While I understand the logic behind a biased language making it easier to empathize with men, but biological and neurological research has found otherwise, ESPECIALLY within men. While women in general are better at empathy overall, men actually show a lot more empathy towards women and sympathize with them a lot more than they do with other men. For example, when talking to another man, brain scans have shown that areas of the brain associated with the usage of tools are the most active, however when talking to a woman, the amygdala - the emotional center of the brain - is the most active. This is understandable, though, and it's an evolutionary advantage for men to be more considerate towards the female of the species, andexplains why we observe the same behavioral patterns in many other mammals.
I have some other examples of some details I disagree with, but I'm running out of characters, and actually I have leave very soon, so I will explain more tomorrow.
Those are studies on different things though. This is not about the amount of bias that already exists due to non-linguistic causes, it's about how much linguistic factors influence gender bias regardless of the bias that might exist from other sources.
i am proud of my mothertoung because it doesn't put any difference between men and women, in persian language we just have one promo to say " he/she, it" and words doesn't have genders like some other languages. it also make things easier for people who wanna learn a language. although i agree for every person her/his mothertoung seems the best
Lord - You think medieval times when a man would be a prince or hold authority over some land
Goddess - Purely sexual, like a woman who dominates men sexually
You are right, this is all bullshit and needs to stop
I’ve never looked at the word ‘goddess’ in that way, perhaps it’s something people who are addicted to porn do.
Shit like this is what modern feminists consider critical issues, which explains a lot about why feminism is so maligned today.
It's not a critical issue, it's an interesting and relevant one. That said, I'd think that making women more likely to be convicted of certain crimes is pretty important, do you not?
For all the years I have been here at GAG, you have always come off as someone who goes through life trying desperately to find sexism anywhere she can find something to twist or exaggerate into something "sexist". It must be exhausting. Seriously, I just can't imagine living that way. I have personally known some women like you and they are miserable people. Truly miserable. I will never understand why people like you choose to be that way.
Your dissertation literally didn't give a single example of actual sexism. Not one. The only way you can find "sexism" in any of this is to manufacture it in your own mind. Calling any of it sexist does a disservice to the entire concept of sexism.
This is a form of mental illness. I hope you get help; you need it.
PS - no, it won't lead to women being more likely to be convicted of certain crimes. That is utter rubbish. Give people a little fucking credit.
I mean, if your stance is that there is little to no sexism in the world, I can understand why youd think that. However, I strongly believe that to ignore clear gender inequalities that can be statistically and logically proven is delusion, which is probably pretty similar to what you believe abiut my beliefs, but hey. I at least am adhering to the metrics we generally concieve of as reliable and logical, while you are rejecting them. Basically, I got science on my side here, and I think that oughta count for something. And if it doesn't count for something to you, then our views are so fundamentally different that we're having the entirely wrong conversation.
I never said there is little to no sexism in the world. I said that people like you who make it their life's work to manufacture sexism where it doesn't exist and to make mountains out of molehills are doing far more harm than good, especially to themselves, but to others, too.
So how is using male pronouns as the generic not sexist, when it results in sexist views? How is "equivalent" male and female terms having unequal meanings not sexist?
It's only sexist when some wingnut comes along and tries to make it sexist. No one else gives a fuck. They never even noticed. There is zero impact.
The ONLY impact this MyTake will have is to further undermine respect for feminism and make young, naive, impressionable girls feel oppressed when they're not. I mean let's face it... that's really what you're after here, right?
Sexism is sexism regardless of whether it's recognized as such. And there is an impact, again there are studies proving as much. Even the results of trials can be influenced by gendered language, so how exactly can you claim that doesn't matter?
What studies? I call bullshit. Please provide links.
Still waiting on those studies.
Friend, I have a life outside of this site. Here's a couple of the studies I mentioned:
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00288993
journals.sagepub.com/.../0261927X01020004004 (This one's about German, but same issue)
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01068152
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00287786
www.tandfonline.com/.../01463378109369395
Since German nouns have gender, many translations into English from German I've seen are highly sexist, e. g., "der Kunde" is "the customer", and Germans writing in English will often use "he" as the personal pronoun or "him" as the direct object.
They're just fucking words lol. Don't expect an entire language to change for your agenda.
Everything is just fucking words hon. But as it turns out, we're a social species, and communication (which just so happens to be made up of words) is pretty vitally important to us.
Dear lord, it's not a big deal
Women being more likely to be convicted due to the use of male generic pronouns is a pretty big deal if you ask me.
My native language isn't much better. We have female versions we use in spoken language but aren't official words.
Like, we don't have a female world for principal and things like that. Officially spoken.
I think the connotation of some words plays a part here too. If we don't see "principal" as a "male word", I think we can take a huge step forward as a society.
(My native language is Dutch btw)
Guys, that's it! Now Feminism wants to change English Language to advertise their agenda! How far can we let those lunatics go?