Yes, there is Good Reason to Own Ar-15's and they are not mass murder weapons.

[RationalMale]

So lately all I hear is "AR-15's, the DEVIL'S OWN GUN!" Yeah. No. Sorry pansies, but while I'd like to think I own a firearm so wicked Satan would carry it, it's just not true. It's an okay rifle, but as far as being supernaturally evil and powerful... no. Let's look at a few facts about Ar-15's and firearms.

1. The Virginia Tech Massacre resulted in far more lives lost than the recent Florida shooting, and the killer used a very basic 9mm handgun (a glock 19) and a .22lr pistol with a 10 round magazine. Yeah. He killed 32 people, using what are actually weak handguns. (Unless you buy an bb gun, .22lr is about as weak as it gets.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting Maybe you want to ban 9mm handguns and .22lrs to help save lives...

2. "There's no reason to own an Ar-15!" They weep. "It's a weapon of war!" Yeah... kind of. The Ar-15 fires a 62 grain .223 projectile. Let's compare that amazing power.

You know that .50 BMG is for weirdos who like to spend $5 a bullet shooting a mile distance. See that .30-06? It's the gold standard for American hunters and has roughly 2900 foot pounds of force. (that's the way you measure bullet enegery. Ft-lbs.) The bullet to the left is a popular bolt action rifle round for Nagant rifles.... it's like what people out in the woods buy when they want a hunting rifle for $200. Simple point is no, the 5.56mm isn't that powerful. The velocity is excellent--it can penetrate obstacles and light body armor very well at close range and punch a .223 size hole in the target. However it's far weaker than a hunting rifle's .30-06... It will give roughly 1700 foot pounds of force. That means your popular hunting rifle has about 1100 more foot pounds of force per shot.

3. "It's only for mass murder!" Actually no. Ar-15's now are so cheap you can buy a decent Ar-15 for less than many quality handguns.

Here's an example of one Ar-15 for $400.

https://www.bearcreekarsenal.com/rifles/cr556mm41617-p-12-mlok

Here's the cost of a Glock 17, which cops love. $500.

https://www.impactguns.com/glock-17-9mm-fixed-sights-17rd-mags-pi1750203-764503502170.aspx

Here's a nice S&W .38 special. $407.

https://www.impactguns.com/smith-and-wesson-642-airweight-38spp-1-78-inch-fixed-sights-glass-bead-rubber-grips-5rd-163810.aspx

4. Rifles are easier to use than handguns. It's the simple reality--you're holding a rifle with one hand on the foregrip, one on the pistol grip, and the shoulder stock is against your shoulder. It's literally easier to teach a rookie to shoot well with a rifle than a handgun. For people who don't want to go to the range often, or if they are weaker than your average bear, it's nice to have a rifle with low recoil that's easy to use. For example if you are physically as strong as a child.

Point is, it's one rifle that is excellent for personal/home defense, for marksman/fun shooting, and for light hunting.

5. People actually get killed by handguns, not rifles. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2010-2014.xls

Oh and yeah. In mass shootings, handguns are the preferred weapon too.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/

In case you didn't want to click, per the FBI about 6k people a year in the USA get killed by handguns... and about 300 by rifles.

Soo.... calm yourselves. You have far worse things to worry about than Ar-15s. Like 12 gauge pump shotguns for example. Imagine shooting someone 8 times with a small handgun... and all it takes is one squeeze.

https://i0.wp.com/rifleshooter.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/photo-68.jpg?resize=678%2C381&ssl=1

[meowcow]

For citizens of the "most powerful nation on Earth", Americans sure are scared of everything. Scared of immigrants. Scared of terrorists. Scared of other Americans. So they arm themselves with more and more guns.

Yet in other countries where gun laws are stricter, the fact is that there is not a lot of gun violence. And when there is, it is mostly hardened criminals killing each other. In Canada, most major cities have about 10 shooting deaths per year. Gun ownership is restricted to handguns, and long guns for the most part.

In Japan, the entire country of 150 million people... experiences about 5 gun deaths per year. That's because firearms are completely banned to the public. Even police do not have guns... only special forces (SWAT equivalent).

Yet, all of these countries have people who suffer from mental illness. Mental illness may trigger a person to violence, but enabling them to kill with a push of a trigger is why there is such a heavy death toll in America. In other countries where guns are not available to the average citizen, mass murder is generally not possible because they have no such weapon available to do so.

[RationalMale]

Go tell that to the people of Europe. They probably thing terror attacks and mass murder are common there. You in your infinite wisdom can enlighten them.

[Kiran04]

Funny how you mention migrants, which have inflated violent crime in Europe five fold. If you aren't worried about that, then you're just delusional.

[goaded]

@Kiran04 That's a lie.

[Kiran04]

@goaded Hahahaha! Funniest joke I've heard all week. Oh... you were being serious. Well, this is awkward.

[wolfcat87]

What an excellent and informative article !!! It shows a very informed and in depth perspective with enough simple references for even "Guns for Dummies" needing person like myself can follow. <3 Enjoy your guns!

[goaded]

5. Last things first, there are 9 pellets in those shotgun cartridges.

Handguns may be the most used weapon in mass shootings, but since your link shows 90 "incidents", but there were 67 semiautomatic handguns, 35 rifles, 23 shotguns and 18 revolvers (143 weapons) it looks like handguns were a secondary weapon in many cases, overstating their importance.

4. Shotguns are better for home defense, pistols are better for self-defense.

The low recoil is what helps the rifle be most deadly, because it packs 5x the punch of a pistol and still stays on target.

3. It's cheap, so it's not for mass murder? wtf?

2. Bigger bullets, bigger recoil; .30-06 "is at the upper limit of power that is tolerable to most shooters", the.223 can, clearly be used by a 7 year old and you even say it will go through body armour (as worn by most deer), ffs.

1. Well, ain't it great that the Virginia Tech shooter was a good shot, and got in early, before the authorities and schools had developed counter-measures. It's still a little bit behind Las Vegas, no?

You know, I don't see the "Good Reason to Own Ar-15's" in your take; what was it, exactly?

[RationalMale]

Shotguns are better for home defense? Clearly you have never used one.

[0112358]

The AR-15 has a bad rap, but basically the issue is... it's cheap, so it's used a lot.

I'm open to seeing more data on this, and i'm aware that skilled shooters can reload quickly, or carry multiple weapons, but my impression is that in practice limiting capacity may give more opportunities to fight back in a mass shooting scenario. If magazine capacity didn't matter, nobody would care about limits on magazine capacity - they care because most people actually do pause shooting noticeably to reload.

But the most notable part I think is that really, while mass shootings get all the press in the U. S., the -main- issue with u. s. firearms vs the rest of the world is handguns. Canada has plenty of hunting weapons, but far, far fewer handguns. Suicidal attackers who walk in to a building with long guns are a very small proportion of gun homicides in the U. S.

[RationalMale]

The main issue with American gun crime vs Canada or Europe is we have a large hispanic and black population. Our white population has gun crime that isn't worse than Europe.

[taleswapper]

... and you just blew your credibility all to pieces. Drat.

[Elliegirl]

I think a lot of people want to blame the AR-15 because it’s solid black, as in the mindset that only tactical assault weapons are solid black, it’s “military grade,” which is 100% false, and it looks scary. Yeah, so does a machete. The fact of the matter is regardless of the weapon used people who don’t know will immediately blame AR-15s because it’s an easy target to pick on for people who don’t know what they’re talking about. Why can’t this simple, easy to understand concept you’ve just posted be broadcast nationally?

[Elliegirl]

And most AR-15 owners I know only shoot paper targets. My boyfriend’s family uses one to shoot coyotes, but that’s because it’s easy for any of them to use because it’s low recoil and powerful enough to stop a coyote from stealing chickens, but not overpowered. My boyfriend shot one with his.308 once, and it just about took both the coyote’s front legs off! .224/5.56mm will never do that!

[RationalMale]

True. 308 is a far more powerful round. Like comparing a 9mm to a 40 or 45

[Elliegirl]

Exactly

[goaded]

Does your boyfriend shoot coyotes with the intention of not killing them?

If they're dead, it doesn't matter much how much damage they receive.

[Elliegirl]

@goaded He intends to kill them. It’s just easier to pick it up and haul it off if it’s in one piece. If there are pieces of coyote all over the pasture, then you get buzzards all over the place, and now you’ve got a whole new problem.

[surferfelix]

The media is portraying this gun as a mass murdering weapon in a plot to remove guns from the US market all-together in the long run. Its really not about the gun itself, but more so about the idea that removing "one rifle" from the market, is a huge step to removing all weapons to be available for purchase there.

Im very much against guns being available for purchase. I do believe, that you should still be able to practice shooting at a firing range or as a hobby, but that needs to be strictly regulated, and no, I think its a stupid idea to have guns in your house to "protect" yourself.

[Kiran04]

The whole, "You don't need an AR-15" argument is always bullshit. I don't need a lot of things that I have, but liberty isn't about need. It's about the freedom to pursue your own happiness as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. Well, my and my AR-15 haven't infringed on anyone's rights, so we're good to go. Same with all of my other semi-auto firearms. The only non-semi-auto gun I own is a lever action Marlin in 45-70.

[TripleAce]

think you just pointed out why it's the perfect weapon of choice...
.. you know why, just look at your post

I personally think almost all those guns need to be banned...
home safety should only be limited to a few weapons and a few for hunting... that's it that's all...

more guns isn't the solution to the gun problem... lol

[RationalMale]

We don't have a gun problem, we have a population problem. The White USA gun crime rates actually fit nicely into European rankings.

[TripleAce]

With 50% of all the world guns with 4% of the worlds population
You can't possibly believe there is no correlation

Guns in the hands of people make it a gun problem
Humans are impulse driven creatures. If that wasn't the case. Fast food restos and fashion would go out of business today
We feed into impulses
Exercising power against other can manifest as a desire impulse

Combine that with paranoia. And you have the perfect cocktail of disaster

--> you guys have been conditioned to beleive there is a continued threat. So much that the threat might of actually been self fulfiilled

One side says keep the guns. You need them. To protect. Continue the hysteria. They are coming for you. They wanna disarm you

The other side says we need to stop gun violence by changing the culture. The gun culture that is

But one thing is certain. No country feels they need to follow this gun rule. At all
That says a lot though?

[RationalMale]

Many countries don't feel a need to let citizens own guns. For example, thats why Merkel's "legos" are becoming so popular in Europe.

[TripleAce]

how does USA feel the need to allow it?
it was never given a chance to see otherwise

the country is wooven with guns... from the start
everyone is just born into that culture --> so of course the people in that bubble can't see anything outside of it

the years of that bubble has now made USA a gun ridden place... guns are literally everywhere after years and years of saturation
--> so maybe now you feel you need it for protection where as if it was never there to begin with, it would have been a lot safer today

[vannanas]

look, thisis clearly meant for Americans, but as a norwegian man. I just want to tell you that your 2nd amendsment is kinda outdated, when that thing was written a rifle held one bullet and took like, 5 minutes to load... and while I am no expert on your laws, the way they are portrayed in the American media I consume, does not tell me you need them. and also, a semi automatic rifle I could understand. but like a sniper rifle... what are you gonna defend with that... no one ever looked at a dude 2 miles down the road and thought "if you come closer I ahve to defend my family".

[RationalMale]

Actually when the 2nd Amendment was written gattling guns and semi auto rifles had already been invented.

And private citizens owned cannons at the time. Those things that shoot bowling balls.

But hey let's take it back to 1780. Private citizens can own cannons and the media cannot use the internet, radio, or tv since there was only written newspapers when the 1st amendment was written.

[vannanas]

musket where the more wide spread rifle of the time, thatthing uses a flintlock and takes forever to reload... the gatling gun was invented according to my quick (google search) in 1884

[RationalMale]

You forgot the other part... The press should only be free to publish newspapers, not use radio or tv or internet.

[vannanas]

but that is completely unrelated. a gun has never been used to inform people. a gun's purpose is to injure or kill. a freedom of speech is supposed to give an arena for rational thought. why do you insist on having so many guns?

[RationalMale]

Hardly unrelated. Press and mass media can be quite a dangerous tool.

[vannanas]

and yet you cannot give a good reason for why you need guns. mass media can be dangerous, yes, but it's purpose is not to damage, which is the ONLY purpose to guns. they are not made for informing people.

[RationalMale]

Simple.
1. We need guns to protect ourselves from crime.
2. We need guns so we don't end up like Britain, where police arrest people for "racist" facebook posts and such.

[vannanas]

define in what event you NEED a gun to protect yourself, because you can do that with a knife or a bat... in the case where your attacker has a gun, yes, one would be nice, but European police focus on deescalating a situation, which your police seem not to do, considering that they frequently shoot people, which rarely happens in Europe.

in the off chance that people are arrested for facebook posts, they are usually pretty herendous and racially charged.

there will be events of shooting, but with a far less frewuncy, and haven't enough school children lost their lives for you to see that?

[RationalMale]

1. Knives and bats are illegal for self defense in britain.
2. Any situation where i don't want to be maimed. This isn't fencing and you're coming across as very unintelligent. Do you think robbers or rapists or killers ask you politely for a duel? Maybe you also think women should just submit to rapists since almost any male rapist could physically overpower almost any woman.

[vannanas]

i'm saying nothing of the sort, but how many mass murders have there been in America in recent history, and compare that to mass murders in Brittain, or Scandinavia. the one that comes off as unintelligent is you. it takes longer time and more stealth to stab multiple people to death. let's dobaby steps here, how about doing something about handguns and high powered rifles first?

[RationalMale]

Mass murders in Europe? Off the top of my head--Bombing in Brussels. Bombing in London Subway. Truck attacks in London, Barcelona, Nice, and Sweden. The Bataclan Massacre and Charlie Hebdo.

[vannanas]

yes, and then there's America

Parkland, Florida
Sutherland Springs, Texas
Boston bombing
The countless school shootings
the gay nightclub thing
homicide rate
gang-related crime
robbery weapon of choice

also, your police feel threatened enough to say "keep your hands where I can see them)
whereas police in Europe usually tell you to sit down or turn the vehicle off

[RationalMale]

Indeed we do have problems here. Thank God trump is cleaning house and getting rid of a lot of criminals and gang members.

Like our European cousins, jihad has struck here too.

[vannanas]

I feel like the way it is portrayed here, most of the dudes that commit mass shootings are white middle aged men... the media in my country might be misrepresenting tho, not saying that this is facts

[RationalMale]

Off the top of my head, the Boston Bombing was Kyrgyzstan guys, the Fort Hood Massacre was a Jordan, the San bernardino Massacre was also arabs, the Pulse Nightclub Massacre also arabs, Virginia Tech Massacre was a korean guy, and the recent Florida Massacre was a hispanic/jewish guy. (Cruz usually isn't an American name.)

[vannanas]

but where did they get their guns. it doesn't mater where the person is from, how and where did they came from. and if they are immigrants who could easily get guns, all the more reason for some form of control

[RationalMale]

So... we should let violent foreigners in the country... then disarm the natives because we now have violent foreigners. Hmm.

Instead of making the natives helpless to the violent foreigners, why not get rid of the foreigners?

[vannanas]

are you then a supporter of shutting down tourism as well? as well as immigration. and they will find a way to attack, yes, but most of the suicides are also committed with firearms in the US, and you can't blame that on arabs

[RationalMale]

Suicides aren't my concern. People can slit their wrists or jump off buildings or take a bottle of Tylenol. Japan has a forest where people go to commit suicide.

[RationalMale]

Not to mention, Europe has shown that strict gun control doesn't stop the violent foreigners.

[vannanas]

yet the murder rates in Europe are miniscule in comparison to those of The US. violent crime rates are not even on the same playing field. and you can blame immigrants all you will, but countries such as France and Germany have taken in a great deal of Refugees and yet they seem to be doing just fine. and ethnically diveristy can not be blamed either as France are about as diverse as they come, Germany gave up on purifying their nation in the 60s.

[vannanas]

suicides may not be your consern, but are they not a national issue? should they not be looked at and at least tried to be done something about?

[RationalMale]

Simple. To fight suicides, work on the reasons. Not the way they kill themselves. You can't make a country into a padded cell.

[vannanas]

I never said make into a padded cell, I just really don't see reason in the entire paranoia and this erotification of guns... but our standpoints are so far apart, that no matter what the other one says the other one will agree... so I'm going to stop this

[WalterRadio]

I thought it was hilarious a few years ago when Joe Biden said the best defense weapon was a pump action shotgun, not an AR-15.

Compare Biden's advice to the ease at which the little girl above can handle an AR-15.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0IVSGctQIg

[RationalMale]

Such idiotic advice--walk outside and black both rounds into the air. Ugh. I'd sooner give a woman a decent.38 special than a double barrel 12 gauge.

[taleswapper]

ROFLMAO! This is priceless! i love it! :) It shows the difference between those who are hoplophobes (scary gun! ban it!) and those who actually know what they're talking about...

[WalterRadio]

@taleswapper
Even though some of those are semi-automatics, there is no doubt that manual firearms are much harder to shoot, especially for those who are not physically large.

I have an antique 30-30 lever action Winchester. It is a beautiful gun, but it starts to hurt after a few shots and I won't let women or children shoot it unless they have a lot of experience with guns.

[taleswapper]

Fair enough, though I think it's more caliber and kick than the fact that it's a semi-auto. I had an old.357 scout carbine (pistol rounds) that had very little kick; I wouldn't hesitate to let a child fire it. Made a great saddle gun, though.

[WalterRadio]

@taleswapper
The kick comes from the recoil. The slide or gas piston takes up much of the recoil in semis. For bolt, lever, pump, and other manual firearms, 100% of the recoil goes into your shoulder.

I have a.308 M1A that is a breeze to shoot. It makes a big noise, but the recoil is surprisingly light.

[taleswapper]

I'm familiar with the mechanics of recoil, yes. But thanks anyway. :)

[Anon-ymous1]

*Yawns*

Anyone who needs to call themselves "Rational Male" is likely not rational. Anyway, you clearly know a lot about guns, and none of it matters. People like you should be helping, with your knowledge of firearms, to craft meaningful gun legislation that will permanently ban the weapons you're describing, which are not purposed for home defense.

[RationalMale]

In the USA, we are past the point of banning rifles, whether they be ar-15's, remington 700's or whatever. It's not going to happen. Not because of hunting or the 2nd amendment or such either

[Anon-ymous1]

Yeah... and that's a *bad* thing.

[Curmudgeon]

Indeed. The gun *looks* militaristic, but the Civilian version called the AR-15 is really just a.22 deer rifle, with a similar magazine capacity and rate of fire.

[passinby]

Every fire arm that I have that fits the "crime bill" liberal defined nomenclature "assault weapon" such as an AR-15, AKs, ... to me are in my view anti-assault in my hands. They are defensive for me against the ones that are held by the assailants. These firearms are the best to fire and women I know that fire them prefer them over a "kicking" conventional rifle or even revolver.

[Anonymous]

To be honest, I don't really give a shit. I'm not against guns and I'm not for them either, I'm indifferent. Though, I do find it entertaining listening to everyone on both sides cry about guns. On one side, everyone is like super into guns, frankly, it's a little creepy, like it's almost erotic to them the way they talk about their guns and they get all butthurt anytime someone so much as says anything they deem to be negative about guns. Then on the other side, you got a bunch crybabies going on and on about how a gun stole their lunch money or some shit. My take away is that everyone is just a little too obsessed with an inanimate object.

[Amy247]

a gun "stole their lunch money". or massacred a school full of kids. same thing right

[Opinion Owner]

@Amy247 Yeah, sure thing, whatever floats your boat.

[pleasestopthis]

Yes, I think you can own such a weapon and it could be useful if you need to protect your family and property.
Anyway, I think there should be more regulation about the people who buy it. I don't know if people are tested before buying a gun in the US.

[Anonymous]

Too bad the masses would buy into anything the mainstream media shows them and tells them. They should blame the people that issue those fuckers their license to begin with. They sure seemed to didn't really care to be thorough enough when they did the "background checks" on those fuckers. But the masses are masses, they are nothing more than good ol' little sheep.

[Anonymous]

"3. "It's only for mass murder!" Actually no. Ar-15's now are so cheap you can buy a decent Ar-15 for less than many quality handguns."

how you even compare the price with the sentence and how it is stupid and makes no sense made my day. Thanks.

[RationalMale]

Simple. A lot of people buy guns for their homes only and never carry in public. Ar-15s are more affordable than many handguns, which are also popular for people who want to have a gun at home just in case.

[Anonymous]

Yeah! I'm for arming 1st graders with AR 15's and even grenades. Perhaps even passing out pistols as you board your flight. We should make firearms ownership mandatory and shoot those who don't comply. Hey don't laugh, we seem to be moving in that direction.

[RationalMale]

See folks? The anti-gun people can't make legitimate arguments using facts. Because if they were intelligent enough to use facts, they wouldn't be anti-gun in the first place.

[Kiran04]

Good. The world will be safer.

[winterfox10]

I think people are objecting more to the ease by which you can modify the firing mechanisms of assault rifles. In fairness though, this is the same group of people who honestly believes it is easy to buy an assault rifle with a grenade launcher mod.

[RationalMale]

Oh you mean bump fire stocks? You can bump fire with your hands if you want. If you practice, you can bump fire handguns like they are full auto with only your hands and aim.

Flip side is that if you bump fire a handgun or rifle like crazy, not only do you destroy your accuracy and burn through ammo, you run the risk of overheating your gun quickly.

[winterfox10]

No, I mean an actual modification to the firing mechanism. Anyway, the goal in a mass shooting is spray and pray.

[RationalMale]

I don't know about that. I'm not a gunsmith.

[LoloWaye]

There needs to be more regulation. Any type of crime or felony, misdemeanor, whatever on your record? No gun. Not stable in the head? No gun.

[RationalMale]

In the USA anyone who committed a felony or a misdemeanor of domestic disorder can't have a gun already. Mental illness also disqualifies you

[LoloWaye]

Really? It seems like people are still able to get them even without all that.

[RationalMale]

Indeed. And it's a felony to be a felon in possession of a firearm, with penalties from 1-10 years depending on your state. Unfortunately criminals don't follow the laws, and the Left has been pushing to loosen criminal penalties for years.

[TripleAce]

a criminal that has killed 50 people and hasn't got caught can easily buy a gun at a gun show... WITHOUT a background check

also the NRA is saying how 7 million criminals are not in the database, so the checks co, e back clean

those rules are bullshit
too many guns, too easy

[Goochbreaker]

Why shouldn't we be able to own weapons of war? fuck tyrannical government, why should they get to own massive weapons and all I can have is a little pisser? A free man owns whatever the fuck he wants

[Storm_Soldier2377]

.223 isn't of much use for hunting anything larger than a coyote, it was designed to reasonably effective at range against human targets while being as small as possible so soldiers can carry more ammo.

[taleswapper]

Storm, most GAME is smaller than a coyote. When I was growing up, the game animals of choice were things like raccoon, hare, nutria, possum, wild turkey...

[Storm_Soldier2377]

@taleswapper isn't.223 a bit much for those? Wouldn't it spoil the meat?

[taleswapper]

Nah; headshot 'em. Sure, you lose the head, but were you going to eat that anyway? Meat gets spoiled when you hit the organs like the intestines, and spill toxins into the abdominal cavity. Mostly, that happens during dressing out.

[Kiran04]

You can chamber an AR-15 in 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, or 300 Blackout, all of which are good for hunting applications. And many deer have been taken with.223, it's just not as common as a good.30 cal. In some states it's not even legal, but it is here in NM.