Why "The Problem is Toxic Male Masculinity" is Wrong

Why I see a lot of talk about this lately, with people using this broad term to blame all kinds of issues. I never see any tangible solutions given however, and to me thats symptomatic that the problem is misdiagnosed, or misunderstood. It is also divisive to look at it that way and that in itself makes solving any problem much harder. Are there toxic male behaviors? Of course. Are there toxic female behaviors? Of course. Toxic white people behaviors? Toxic Christian behaviors? Toxic republican behaviors? Of course. Every group, every subgroup, every race has toxic aspects. Some of them have adapted to fit that group in specific ways (like with males being taught not to show emotion) but many of these learned behaviors transcend these gorups and subgroups until the most common denominator is male and female. In that sense I see where people are coming from with the term "toxic masculinity"


Aside from that though I disagree with the use of that term entirely. The problem is not just one thing, but a number of things.
-Toxic societal norms and toxic human behaviors. Women are just as prone to feeling pressured into being a certain way, looking, doing, acting a certain way. They are just as prone to experiencing negative, unhealthy, and detrimental responses to not following these norms, and like men, they also have behaviors that cause harm to not just themselves but both genders.


-Feminism as its portrayed currently, is a joke and pile of hypocritical trash. On the polar opposite side of things there are groups like MGTOW (I'm not even going to try and explain that circus of clowns, google it if you don't know what it means), and given how each group behaves I can somewhat understand how someone gets into being what I'll call a "modern" feminist or a guy in MGTOW. I can see how women would go to a MGTOW site and read some of their hypermasuline-to-the-point-of-being-gay-even-though-they-openly-hate-gays circle jerk content and become a modern feminists as a result. I can see how some men see these "feminists" saying such ignorant and discriminating nonsense that they think MGTOW is the answer.

Why That's because both of these views are absurd, beyond stupid, and laughable. They're both insincere, detrimental, and take part in obscuring the truth. The only good thing I can say about them is that to some small degree they at least are aware that there is a problem, even if they're lightyears away from correctly identifying it, and therefore unaware that they are a big part of that problem. In truth, genuine feminism and genuine masculism are the same. They both see that there is systematic discrimination, and believe that it should be eliminated. What they don't see though, is the only way they can end discrimination is by operating in unity to end discrimination since both sides play a big role in the creation of these social norms to begin with, but also because both genders are impacted by these behaviors.

Rather than being divided and looking at it in a way that blames the other side we should work as one to eliminate any and all toxic human behaviors that are instilled by society. After all, we do have the same goals. What this also means is you can't pick and choose your discrimination, meaning you can't end discrimination against women if racial discrimination still exists and so on, so all of it would have to go (sexism, racism, religious discrimination, homophobia, political discrimination, etc.) That's because from a logical standpoint you cannot totally eliminate one group being discriminated against if they are discriminating against the other group still since they will in turn discriminate back. Or if you discriminate against them for one thing but not another, it doesn't work like that.


So the problem isn't "toxic masculinity", rather toxic parts of human behavior in general. Parts that can only be made better by acting out our desire of not being discriminated against by...not discriminating, against anyone, for anything. Until we approach these problems in unity and as one and see them in that manner nothing will substantially change. If we could though, just think of the whole world having one goal. We would be unstoppable.


Whether that's a realistic possibility for humanity or not is a matter for the comments section or maybe another post, the main thing about this post is just to accurately name the real problem disguised as "toxic masculinity" and offer a solution.


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Most Helpful Girls

  • Stating that, "The problem is toxic male masculinity", is the problem itself.

    It does not seem to encourage open discussion as this unnecessary puts emphasis on 'male', thereby polarizing people of the opposite gender on grounds that are not true in all cases.

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    • OP thread is toxic male masculinity so there goes the debate not some tricky way to switch the debate to something bigger us male can have our own male debate to fix our problems

      #SEXEQUALITYBOTHWAYS

    • I know some male groups are forming right now to fix our own problems because us male didn't take enough care of ourselves lately

    • The use of insulting and prejudicial language to disuade argument is an old, and dishonest tactic. It belongs nowhere in an honest discussion.

  • In what I've read about toxic masculinity in academic circles (not here, where everyone just sees the term and immediately screams "BUT WHY DO YOU HATE MEN!!!"), the problem is that men are socialized to believe that having and expressing feelings in any way that isn't fucking or fighting makes you less of a man. It's also the idea that the role of a father is to be absent in order to "provide" and that all of your emotional needs ought to be met by your romantic partners and no one else.

    There are solutions in academic circles - which is literally the point of these discussions and journal articles (as @MlleCake has said as well). Mostly, it is suggested that we raise boys with the understanding that they CAN express emotions (and in more ways than just by fucking and fighting) and it won't make them less "male."

    I see men's activists always bring up the fact that men are more likely to succeed at committing suicide, and I never see them suggest anything. In academic circles, it's thought by some that the reason for this is that men do not have many close friends. The more close personal relationships that you have with people, the more unlikely you are to commit suicide. This is especially marked with men of a certain age (30s to 50s), whom are likely to be married and/or remarried. I know my dad doesn't have any friends. He has my mom and he has me. It's a lot.

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    • I posted something about that and was told I was trying to turn men into women.

      By suggesting they benefit from close relationships.

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    • Another personal attack, nice..

    • @Deuteros right, because you’re totally innocent of the personal attacks.

      You bore me. Bye.

Most Helpful Guys

  • I agree with this Take. "Toxic masculinity" is a term I started hearing myself in recent years, and it sounds like more of a way to put sole focus on what men are doing wrong while female toxicity is either dismissed or denied.

    And in truth, there is an enormous amount of toxic femininity or so many women wouldn't be preferring male friends and co-workers over other females.

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  • The problem with framing the issue around "toxic mascunilinity" is that it assumes you can somehow curb masculinity. That you can stifle or eliminate it, but that is 100% untrue. Masculinity happens whether you like it or not. It will happen. It is going to happen. It is ingrained in our genes. What you need to do is teach boys how to be men. Teach MANHOOD, not feminist theory, because only manhood can take the inevitable outcome of masculinity and channel it towards something positive that betters the man, those around him, and the community. Attempting to stifle or change masculinity only bottles it up until it explodes in every way you don't want it to. It must be harnessed, tempered, honed, and channeled. Anything else is a ticking time bomb. Our society no longer teaches manhood. We no longer guide men, only scorn them and the outbursts we get from that are the cause of our suffering.

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What Girls Said 13

  • I actually haven't seen a formal discussion of toxic masculinity where people hadn't seriously considered possible solutions. The main solution we usually suggest is socializing boys a bit differently.

    I don't believe that to be a man one must display anti-social behavior. We have tons of solutions for anti-social behavior from social conditioning, to education and therapy when needed.

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    • Why do we need to socialize boys differently? If a woman can be what she wants to be, whatever they want to be, then can’t men? To imply we need to be different v meeting in the middle perpetuates the same thing you are trying to prevent. The socialization of boys in school already puts them behind the curve, discourages any behavior typically associated as male, and teaches them having any feelings classified as male are “wrong.” It’s hypocritical and why feminism is losing participation from many women. Fight for equality by looking for things that encourage equality, not correcting men to be what you want them to be...

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    • @ADFSDF1996 No, certainly not. And I usually make the caveat someplace that what I say applies only to some men and not only men - but even if I failed to make that statement, I'm not a moron, no.

    • Okay that makes sense. Thanks for explaining.

  • The problem is not that there aren't problematic behaviors in humans per se, but that they are excused and even celebrated in some while being condemned in others. For centuries, this has been the case with men's behavior. Only recently has this started changing.

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    • Can’t wait for this to happen to women! Pros and cons to each side, but demonizing men and stereotyping them as toxic only makes the problems worse, and makes the divide between us greater...

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    • @Al-Khawrazmi @Fataters @Paultripps You are setting up a strawman. Where do I say I hate men or seek to ban masculinity? Calling out the fact that men's not so stellar behavior has often been excused for many years is not an example of hating men. Neither does it mean that there aren't women who behave in bad ways. Femininity or masculinity are not things you can ban or eradicate.

    • Women aren't Innocent but you women refuse to see that because that would be too much work. Look the mirror, you're your own worse enemy. If masculinity is so toxic why do women want to become more masculine is beyond me.

  • I think there's an issue because the term "toxic masculinity" is actually misconstrued. It's not masculinity is bad, but that elements of hyper-masculine ideals are bad. Mostly these effect men not women, and meninist groups actually crusade against these ideals.

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  • I used to work in a gym full of male clients and coworkers and I rarely if ever experienced what I would describe as "toxic masculinity". I have experienced arrogance, rudeness, and aggression, but these aren't strictly masculine characteristics.

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  • What is toxic masculinity supposed to be, honestly?

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    • Exactly

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    • It’s the societal pressures to force men not to be feminine or gender neutral.

    • A way to demonize men.

  • I agree. I hate the whole anti-male venom many feminists are spewing. They are like a broken record in that every problem a woman faces in her entire life is a man's fault and responsibility to fix.

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  • I think you're right that toxic masculinity is about toxic parts of human behaviour in general. I assume people call it some of those toxic parts toxic masculinity, because for who knows how many centuries those traits were said to be masculine traits.. traits good men should have and desire to have, but good women should avoid possessing.

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  • When we talk about toxic masculinity, we do not mean that there is no other toxic behavior existing in the world.

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    • There is nothing toxic about masculinity. Never was, never will be. The only thing toxic is the rhetoric surrounding it.

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    • Bringing up African hunger while a group of people is trying to solve hunger in Brazil is irrelevant and stupid, but in problems so closely related to each other like this, you have to address the other when you talk about one in order for your argument to be anywhere near relevant.

    • There is nothing toxic about masculinity or being male. There are many things toxic about guys putting too much stress on themselves and others just for the sake of masculinity.

      Look at how y'all got pissed despite me mentioning that other kinds of toxic behaviors DO exist. When did I say that the other kinds are not a problem? Lol I'm done with y'all and your victim mentality, boo.

  • Nice take

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  • nice take

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  • I agree

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  • I think by “toxic masculinity” people usually mean societal acceptance of invasive aggression.

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    • And yet no one in society accepts that. We demonize everything about men. The whole "people make excuses for men!" has always been horse shit. Everyone's always willing to throw men under the bus whenever tragedy strikes, but no one is ever willing to stand up for them. It's no wonder men act out in violent and anti-social ways when all of society is against them.

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    • Toxic rage. Toxic hate. Toxic intolerance. Maybe better phrases. Though stats show men tend to endorse xenophobia & violence more.

    • You are absolutely right. I’m currently working on a MyTake about exactly this topic. Stay tuned.

  • Good point

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What Guys Said 48

  • I love this take

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  • There are certain things I agree with when it comes to toxic masculinity, and other things that feminist view as being toxic that I don't. Here's the definition of toxic masculinty from wikipedia:

    "Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. Other stereotypically masculine traits, such as self-reliance and emotional repression, are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance abuse."

    Misogyny, homophobia, sexual assault, domestic violence, yeah, I agree that they're toxic. I don't see these things as having anything to do with masculinity though. Misogyny could be re-labelled sexism/hatred towards the opposite sex - women can be just as guilty of that. Women are probably less likely to be homophobic but many of them are. Sexual assault is more of a problem with men, I agree with that. Domestic violence is roughly 50/50 - people just assume that it's mostly men beating women, don't take it seriously when women do it to men, assume these things because men are generally bigger and stronger.

    Self-reliance isn't toxic unless taken to the extreme. We're social animals, we're supposed to have close friends and family - being a "lone wolf" is unnatural, and therefore unhealthy.

    Emotional repression, or what I'd call stoicism, is misunderstood by a lot of people, especially women. For example people want to encourage men to open up, things like "it's ok to cry". In certain cases it is, but men deal with emotions differently. When you understand how testosterone works you understand that it makes you cry less than women. These people think that men are just like women and that we're holding back - often we aren't, we just deal with things differently. I think that things like depression and suicide have more to do with other things - the unnatural way we live today - which is why it's said to be a "disease of civilisation".

    I think that the problem here is basically blaming the wrong things for these problems and therefore coming up with false solutions.

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  • This has to be the most mamby pamby bunch of BS I've seen in awhile.
    'Toxic parts' and 'approach problems in unity'" OMFG

    Masculinity isn't toxic. It's just a few women whining about it because they want to be men. And even if you put a dick on them they STILL wouldn't be men.

    The more women try to be just like men the less desirable they are as women.

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  • I fully agree. Very well put. Thank you, Sir, this was most informing.
    You are completely right. Masculinity is not bad in the slightest. It is actually very natural. The problem is with people in general and toxic behavior from both genders. And we need to fix that if we want toxic behavior to lessen.

    Feminists are just making things worse by vilifying all men. Men are not the problem. They just don't like us. And that's bullying. That in itself is a toxic behavior.

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  • I agree. Well thought out mytake.

    I think "toxic masculinity" is just a way for feminists to put all toxic behavior squarely on the shoulders of men, just the same as "mansplaining" puts conversations in which one person is a know-it-all and won't participate in meaningful dialogue squarely on men.

    Both men and women display toxic behaviors. Both men and women can be pig-headed know-it-alls.

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  • There isn't toxic masculinity, I don't know these school shootings seem to say otherwise. Young boys, nihilism, don't talk about their problems, but want to take it out on society. Our culture reinforces attitudes and dominance and our culture needs to change some of it's notions.

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  • Toxic parts of human behavior, you mean something like... you name calling groups you don't have the slightest idea about?

    Yes, we should start approaching the problem of toxicity in human behavior.
    For example, you can start with yourself.

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  • As far as I can tell "toxic masculinity" is just a buzzword that some people like to use to disguise their sexism towards males.

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  • Toxic masculinity is actually a thing, but not how SJWs and feminists describe it.

    Toxic masculinity is when boys and men are incapable of learning how to valve their masculine energy, aggression, etc. in a positive manner. Ironically the left-wing does exactly the opposite. It tries to suppress those masculine energies and thus creates actual toxic masculinity.

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  • You do make some interesting points
    And I do think you touch upon something of a general problem
    We do need unity
    For society to function we need each other
    And we need to value each other
    But we live in a decaying civilization people exploit division between us for monetary or political gains and we let them as we have been all sold on hailing individualism... and it is killing us but we do care as long as someone else has it worse
    We need a different mentality

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  • TOXIC, What does it mean one definition say poisonous to the system. Feminists have been said to be toxic, but it isn't poisonous , it actually does a lot of good , gives women a voice . Toxic males they keep and perpetuate this evil male dominance as if they are the best. Sadly guys it just shows how pathetic it is when you have to use force to keep the ladies quiet. Thankfully their voice is getting louder and it cannot be stopped , thanks ladies keep on going...

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  • Easy turn boys into girls starting at school to be little submissive bitches who don't have balls to stand up for what is right.

    Nothing wrong with masculinity, it's just feminists who have issues with all men in general.

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  • Props to you OP. You are on the right track. There is nothing wrong with masculinity. 'Women' aka Feminists just want to push against their ficticious enemy called 'patriarchy'. They do this because they know if they blame men directly the backlash would be big. Same with 'toxic masculinity' instead of just blaming plain ol masculinity. It's really just bullying.

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  • Finally, someone in the middle with an understanding of human behavior. There are social constructs that hinder as individuals but being a man and naturally having a male oriented brain is real too and shouldn't be hated.

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  • The idea of toxic masculinity is total BS and another attempt to shame men into compliance and subservience. Men were socially conditioned by women and the state into disposability on women's and the state's behalf. That's how we got the male-only draft and 'men last in the life boats'. That's why men are the vast majority of suicides, combat and workplace deaths, homeless and incarcerated.
    Why isn't that called toxic femininity? Because so long as it's the disposal of men on women's and the state's behalf, it's all good.

    Toxic masculinity. What a joke. It's amazing how well people lie to themselves.

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  • There is no such thing as "toxic Masculinity", feminism is toxic and they make up bullshit concepts like toxic masculinity.

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  • It's just a part of the Feminist threat narrative, like all threat narrative it's rooted in hate and deception.

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  • There is no such thing as toxic masculinity. It's a shaming term by feminist who need some sort of leverage over men.

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  • I dont see a problem with it so long as its not abused by women and their addiction to abs. LMAO.

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  • No such thing as toxic masculinity. It’s just another talking point from the snowflake liberal left.

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