Dear pro-lifers: Unwanted pregnancies aren't just the woman's fault

[ChronicThinker]

Listen up, bitches

Listen, I have my opinions on abortion and I don't care if you're pro-life. Good for you. Don't care.

What does irritate me though is how every pro-life post about abortion is geared towards ripping the woman apart for getting one.

There's always some long speech about how she must be a hoe, should have used birth control and is an overall horrible person. It's like people absolutely forget that to get a woman pregnant...

A man has to be involved int he equation somehow.

Now, I know some dipshit in the comments is going to say: ROAR CRAZY FEMINIST YOU SUCK AHHHHHHHHHH!!!

No. I'm not a crazy feminist. I'm on team human and I call shit out regardless of your creed, junk, orientation, or whatever.

I just think it's really fucking dumb that pro-lifers absolutely forget that men have 100 per cent a part to play in unwanted pregnancies, just as much as a woman does. Without SPERM, there are no unwanted pregnancies, yet we seem to completely forget that part.

Instead, all of the blame is on the woman on how she is supposed to be on birth control and use all other available birth control.

Yet ... we don't acknowledge the fact that currently, places like the states are trying to make birth control harder to get and don't acknowledge that birth control can have side effects for some women.

SO, condoms, right? Women are expected to have those on hand too, even though ... dudes are the ones who need to wear them. Makes sense that we say dudes should take responsibility to carry em', right? And many dudes do.

And many don't.

I can't tell you how many times I've had a girlfriend tell me some dude she wanted to hook up with refused to wear a condom. But, if they have sex anyway, we won't blame the guy ... we'll blame the woman because she "still went through with it. "

Because none of us has EVER been in a situation where we were so blindly horny that we made a dumb decision. No, no, we're all perfect human beings who NEVER make mistakes, it's only women who find themselves in an unwanted-pregnancy situation who do that.

Well ... if you're a hardcore pro-lifer blaming women for shit, you probably never have been that blindly horny.

No one seems to point the finger at the guy who refuses to wear a rubber, and who likely pressured the fuck out of the woman to not be a total drag and he'll "totally pull out."

Oh, may I also mention guys don't always pull out when they say they will? That's a thing.

But, no. It's that horrible pregnant lady's fault she got pregnant during an act that literally takes two individuals to create another life.

I'd also like to point out to pro-lifers that not every dude who unintentionally knocks a girl up is supportive of her keeping the baby. I had a friend who actually had a guy pressure her so hard, insisting she would be ruining his life and career that he went as far as to threaten to kill himself if she had the baby.

Guess what? She got an abortion.

But no one talks about that. We just point the finger on the person who stands to go through the physically draining (and painful) process of carrying a child to term, face the prospect of possibly having to raise it alone, having the stigma of being the "knocked up" girl with a baby she didn't want or a slut, she may be thrown out of her home.

But, she's just a horrible person who deserves to be slandered. Because that's healthy for a pregnant woman, right?

All I'm saying is, it's not JUST her fault. Does she have responsibility? Of course, but can we all admit that humans are imperfect AND it isn't just up to the woman to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

[Anonymous]

I am pro life and I agree some pro life may not Think about what you Said and some pro choice don't Think normal either. However you do have an attitude. Try to not let them irritate you. Its not worth the time.

And if you choose to have sex without protection and you get pregnent then thats on you. You sign up for that when you do that. Its the same when someone does a robbery there is a big risk you will go to jail but it's not 100%. And no nobody is perfect but you have to take responsibility of your actions. That's the way it is. And men should be protected too but if he doesn't want to and you still decide to have sex then you also say yes to a risk of pregnancy. When men skip the protection then they are also saying yes to the risk of being a father. Actions speaks louder than words.

And if they make that decision and she gets pregnent and doesn't want it then she can go ahead with adoption. Which isn't risky for the mothers health or the childs health so it's a win win. Abortion is obviously horrific for the child but the mom can die from it too. And Most women with morals and empathy that does abortion go thruogh a huge depression because the regret it after they do it.

[ChronicThinker]

It's also on the guy who didn't have protection. You just reiterated my point.

[Opinion Owner]

A part of it yes but not all. But the part about it's both responsibility yes absolutly:)

[ChronicThinker]

Yes, you got er'. I'm not saying women are innocent, my point is a lot of pro-lifers question the woman without ever once considering the man's part and the circumstance.

My hope is people understand that this shit isn't as black and white as they think it is.

[Opinion Owner]

Some of them think that way but luckily not all. And ofcorse it's not all black or white. And it is both the man and the womens responcibility. But I myself will always be a pro life. And I Think Most pro life People focus on the life inside of the stomach not how it got there and the fact that it's the women who decide to get the abortion not men. But it's Good that you Said your opinion and view on it!

[Opinion Owner]

*responsibility

[Goodwifie]

Women don't simply skip out of the labor ward after popping out a baby.
There can be complications, who's going to support her financially if she can't go back to work straight away?
Women can also die during childbirth.

[Opinion Owner]

@Goodwifie personally if I had to choose between my life and my child I would save my child. And ofcorse there can be other hard times which is why adoption is great

[Twat_Twig]

It takes two to tango. If a woman gets pregnant it's on both parties. I personally feel like a man should be able to have a say so in whether his child is born or not. I've personally known fathers who would've been more than willing to raise an unwanted child since the mother didn't want it, but the mom got an abortion anyway. That's completely fucked up and selfish in my opinion. My boyfriend and I had sex and didn't use any protection or the pullout method you know. It was supposed to be a "special" night cause we had gotten over a really bad fight. We knew the risks and accepted whatever came of it. Well I'm 4-5 weeks away from giving birth to our son and I wouldn't have it any other way. At the same time I understand that there's a purpose for abortions even though I am morally opposed to them. If you ask me if you should have an abortion I would tell you no. But I wouldn't try to stop you.

[mistixs]

If a man is able to force a woman to pay the physical costs of pregnancy even if she doesn't want to, a woman should be able to force the man to pay the financial costs of pregnancy even if he doesn't want to.
Which is to say that, just like a woman has to pay the physical costs of the pregnancy even if she doesn't want the child, the man has to pay the entirety of the financial costs of the pregnancy even if he doesn't want the child.

[Twat_Twig]

Ok? I don't disagree.

[FakeName123]

@mistixs
"a woman should be able to force the man to pay the financial costs of pregnancy even if he doesn't want to."
Isn't that already happening anyway?

[ClearCyan]

Yeah, this is all well and good. Except the whole point of the abortion movement is that it's the woman's choice to get an abortion or not with no concern for the fathers opinion. As soon as you remove the man's right to have say in his child's life it's all on the woman. So the blame has to fall on the woman unless you give the fathers a say in the matter as well. And of course it's both persons responsibility to use protection. And if there's an unwanted pregnancy yes its equally the man's fault. I don't think anyone argues against that. As far as the name calling and all. That happens. Doesn't matter what side you will be called names. Sometimes even from those you share an opinion with.
Anyway, I hope all of this came out as respectfully as possible.

[ChronicThinker]

This is a good point.

[OlderAndWiser]

Blaming the guy for the abortion is like blaming her parents for giving her a car and then she gets drunk and kills somebody with the car.

Of course guys are responsible for the pregnancies. Duh! everybody knows that. But you are confusing two different concepts.

A girl gets pregnant and. . . guess what? The guy has absolutely no right to prevent her from having an abortion, he has no right to force her to have an abortion, and if she does have the baby, he is required to pay child support for the next 18 years. . . and that is absolutely the way it should be.

SO. . . if she decided to have an abortion, how is it his fault?

[JamesRandiDebates]

@OlderAndWiser I was with you up til "that is absolutely the way it should be." Women can legally abort or birth. Fine. Men need the option of paper abortions. "If you have that child, I will not pay for it." Equality!

[OlderAndWiser]

@JamesRandiDebates I see plenty of cases in court with irresponsible fathers who do not want to pay child support. If you don't want to get a girl pregnant, there are at least two methods which are very reliable.

[JamesRandiDebates]

And women have a dozen or so. Equality.

[OlderAndWiser]

@JamesRandiDebates And women have boobs and men have testicles. How cruel of biology to make us different?

[JamesRandiDebates]

Biology and equality under a supposed gender-blind legal system are apples and oranges.

[OlderAndWiser]

@JamesRandiDebates YOU were talking about the "inequality" of women having more birth control methods available to them.

[MzAsh]

You can’t expect the majority of pro lifers to be logical. They believe in religious fairytales.

[CoffeeWC]

I agree with this, but I've never been in a situation like this. I know nothing about it.

[Curmudgeon]

I am hardcore right wing on just about everything, but not this issue. However, I certainly don't favor a morbid celebration of abortion, like what we appear to be seeing in New York. But I just can't compel a woman to bear a child she does not want.

I. Just. Can't.

And even the hardest core Republicans (that are left) in Cali tend to feel the same. This state did legalize abortion 6 years before the wrongly decided Roe case, signed into law by then Governor Reagan no less.

Just about all abortion is birth control, really. In modern medicine, no one has to save the mother's life that way. And that's how, in every case I know of, they were used. As the ultimate back up birth control, so as not to "ruin the girl's life" and send her off to college, rather than her suffering the fate of the underclass, or like that character in "Riding In Cars With Boys".

Adoption is wonderful for cute, cuddly, drug free and white infants. (No, I am not making racial judgments here, but hey, some orphan babies get snatched up more than others, and some races are more likely to adopt than others). I pity the crack, fetal alcohol and other druggie babies. That's two strikes against them at birth.

The pro-choice majority in states like California in my generation (and even more so among the younger generation) is easy to misinterpret, but it makes sense. Imagine growing up in a world that condones, nay, encourages, sexuality in your mid-teens if not early teens, yet makes family formation too costly and impossible until you are thirty--at best. Then imagine going through those two decades with few intact courtship rituals and no effective means of compelling a child's father to act responsibly. Imagine seeing how single motherhood essentially means hopeless poverty. Finally, imagine how creating a single parent child would be a chilling replay of what so many people from divorced parents didn't like about their own childhoods.

You might still think abortion is wrong, and you might never have one yourself. But you would be hard pressed to persuade your peers that their choice to abort reflects a selfish choice against family life. They would respond, "WHAT family life?"

[ChronicThinker]

And that's totally fine dude.

[lord_chilled]

And none of those arguments can condone the taking of an innocent life.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Yeah, no one is saying that. What is being said is that she absolutely chooses to have sex with out protection YET people, like yourself and feminist and women in general, feel that its okay for her to ignore her responsibility in the situation. That is she got pregnant, so its his fault. That's the mentality that every one is frustrated with. See no woman who is pro abortion (as far as I've ever seen) is also against child support. What does that tell you? Well it says that most people believe that women should never ever be held accountable for their actions BUT men absolutely need to be held accountable for their actions and also be held accountable for her actions as well. That's what pisses people off, that its completely and totally one sided where the woman can decide she doesn't want to take responsibility and she is just allowed to do that but if she decides she wants to keep the baby then HE has to take responsibility, the same responsibility she can accept or decline on whim, regardless of whether or not he wants to. So most people are absolutely fine with the man sucking it up and taking responsibility, in fact every one is. The difference is pro life people tend to also believe that the woman should also have to suck it up and accept responsibility for her actions as well. That's the issue. So no, your entirely incorrect, no one is holding women accountable, the overwhelming majority of society is giving women every single excuse they can imagine and more to ensure that women NEVER have to be responsible for their actions. We can even prove that with laws and the lack of laws (for instance, child support which occurs if the woman wants the mans money and he has no say in it, abortion where she can avoid responsibility and the man has no say in it, giving children up for adoption which she can do without the fathers consent (as she is not legally required (in most places) to notify him to begin with), with the Hermsmann vs seyer court ruling that determined that no matter the circumstances a woman is always entitled to child support (in this particular case, it was a 12 year old boy who was required to pay child support to his rapist (his babysitter at the time)) and many more laws then that.).

[lord_chilled]

of course its not only the woman's fault. its both people's fault.

but tell me this; who has the responsibility of pregnancy and childbirth?
its women.

with your argument, you are implying that women are incapable of any form of responsibility at all.
life is not fair and neither is nature.

we have to deal with it. men deal with it. and women have to as well, no exeptions.
you are the gender who gets pregnant and bears children. its a great power but also a great responsibility.

this is why women are always held to a higher regard than men when it comes to sexual choices.
as such, you HAVE to do a better choice than the average bloke.

why are politicians and leaders held to a higher moral standard than regular men are?
because they have so much more power and influence over people. therefore they cannot be as lame as a regular bloke could be. people will not be as forgiving of him as they would be of a regular person who makes a mistake.

maybe things that liberalism/feminism have been promoting has misguided a generation or 2 of women.
by thinking you should have the right to make choices and take charge in your sexuality, like men, you forgot that you had responsibilities that men do not have.

now with all that being said, i'm not shifting any blame from men.
as a pro life person, there are few people i have a lower opinion on than men who either a) knock up women and dip, never to be heard again and b) men who actively pressure the woman to get an abortion regardless of her wishes.
i think both of these types should be locked up, in my personal opinion.

if i ever got anyone pregnant, regardless of the situation or my feelings, i would encourage her trough the process , because that child in her has my blood as well. i couldn't imagine refusing or giving up on my own child!

anyway, back to the point, as women, you need to understand that there are different types of men out there and with the power/responsibility that you have you should be able to make better decisions with regards to sex.

there is no reason to create life, only to throw it away in the name of pleasure.
i like sex, i think everyone does. but its not more valuable than life itself.

[latinabutterfly96]

Biologically, women have a greater responsibility but that isn’t the case anymore. Men are held equally accountable. Therefore, they NEED to take equal responsibility and make better decisions.

This person wasn’t implying that women aren’t at fault. They were establishing that men take a part in it too, an equal part.

[latinabutterfly96]

When I said men are equally held accountable, I meant in a legal sense. So the excuse of “you’re the one who gets pregnant so you’re the one who needs to make better decisions” doesn’t apply anymore.

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 i agree with what you are saying.

the person was being neutral for the most part but i feel like she was going too much into the direction of shifting responsibility away from women. that's how i felt, i agree with giving men more responsibility.

and while the legal thing may have shifted thin a bit, its not entirely an equalizer. biology still has a stronger effect than the law does.

[latinabutterfly96]

Perhaps. But saying that women “should” make better decisions ultimately shifts the responsibility away from men even more. I just think both should be held accountable equally, it avoids conflict, sexism, etc.

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 look i get how you feel, and its totally justified.

My point is only about making the best judgement in this case. Its not about sexism.

I am willing to admit that my gender kinda sucks with this issue. I know many men who will absolutely take responsibility for their actions and conduct themselves in a mature way.

But i know many more men who absolutley do not care. If it werent for legal charges they probably never would even bother. All they care about is getting between a womans legs, what happens after doesn't register. It sucks, but for some reason many guys are this way, maybe some will change with age.

But for women, regardless of your decision, you will have something to do about it.
So you will always have a bit more power but also responsibility whwn ot comes to this.
Im not saying this to antagonize or create conflict, in this case im 100% empathetic , its just something that people need to know for their own good.

[latinabutterfly96]

What? I’m not trying to seek empathy or pity, or whatever you think I’m doing here. I’m just saying that these men are actually held accountable and they do pay - big time - for their dumb decision making. You say they aren’t or that biology somehow has more impact on a woman’s responsibility but that isn’t the case anymore. Some women also don’t care and that’s why you see lots of fetuses and newborn babies in the trash can. These people are shitty and we both know it, but that’s not what I’m trying to highlight.

I’m saying that while people should stop blaming women for something that the man takes part of as well, they should be able to see that both end up paying dearly for their stupidity.

[latinabutterfly96]

TL;DR the assumption that women “should” make better decisions is factually incorrect. If it takes two, it takes two.

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 its not factually incorrect. It is factually correct.

It takes two, but the two are not equally affected.
Hence, women have more responsibility.
Tell me again, whose bodies are affectes in the process, men's or women's?

[latinabutterfly96]

The biological aspect isn’t the only one involved here, as I’ve said before. There’s two other aspects men have to deal with if he takes no responsibility. The social aspect and the legal aspect. Firstly, he has no say in whether the baby is born or not. He cannot make a voluntary decision to either work for the next 18 years/pay alimony/child support, OR to get the PhD he always needed. He can’t.

The woman can. She can easily go and get an abortion, and choose. The emotional aspect is harsh, yes, but temporary. If the woman keeps the baby we all know what happens to the man. It is a turn-off for a lot of single women if a potential partner is already a father. It implies he cannot make sound decisions. He’s also stigmatized and permanently viewed differently; his “friends” and family don’t see him in a positive light anymore. He will need to face the consequences.

[latinabutterfly96]

It isn't correct. I think you’re mistaking two things but it’s okay, I’ll explain them to you.

The first one: The woman will face the burden of carrying the baby and having to breastfeed him (unless she decides to put him up for adoption).

The second one: The baby has two parents, not one. The mother and father are both equally responsible, even if the mother is the primary caregiver during pregnancy and the baby’s first years of life. It took one egg and one sperm to conceive it. Period.

[latinabutterfly96]

It’s like saying “Bob owns a gun and gave it to Larry and told him to shoot Sam. But BOB is the one who should be held accountable (not Larry), since he owns it and let Larry shoot.”

That’s literally your logic applied to criminal justice.

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96

1) " he has no say in whether the baby is born or not"- this really deoenss on your location. There are plaves where men have a say in it.

" He cannot make a voluntary decision to either work for the next 18 years/pay alimony/child support, OR to get the PhD he always needed. He can’t. "
Very generalized statement and in many situations there are mamy more options.

" It is a turn-off for a lot of single women if a potential partner is already a father. It implies he cannot make sound decisions. He’s also stigmatized and permanently viewed differently; his “friends” and family don’t see him in a positive light anymore. He will need to face the consequences."
- all of this also applies to women, harsher than men.

Men avoid single women much more strictly than the other way around. And as this post makes it clear, judgement is still harder on women.

Your arhument has some bias. You are implying that men have more to lose.
But you compare the case of when women have little to lose (in case of an abortion) with the case of men having a lot to lose ( in case of no abortion and he has to pay child support).
Thats not how you can compare it. If she gets an abortion, neither partner will be left with responsibilities with higher risks for the woman, amd if she goes trough with the abortion, the man may habe to pay child support but she is the one raising the kid.
If they stay together, both raise the kid. In the end you are left with childbirth and pregancy so, again, overall the woman did more work. Amd this is without conaidering the cases where guys run out and avoid child support. They can leave the sate, country etc and not be tracked down.

Both are equally responsible for creating the child, but women have more to lose. That hasn't changed to this day.

Hence women are held to a higher standard in decisionmaking.

[lord_chilled]

* and if she goes through with the pregnancy...
Sorry about spell errors.

[latinabutterfly96]

“Both are equally responsible...”

Exactly. That’s all you needed to understand. Nothing more, nothing less. Both of them need to take equal responsibility - and they do.

Have a good day, sweetheart. :)

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 agreed.

Have a beautiful day too as well 😊

[latinabutterfly96]

Next time, consider the fact that sometimes it’s not necessary to type a book to get your point across. 😆 bottom line is, the social and legal aspects really do come into play and they’re harder on men, since it basically destroys his life.

Also just as a final note, you mentioned that I was implying that women are less responsible. Well, firstly i don’t know why you keep saying that. I don’t know why you have a perspective where you believe someone is pointing fingers at your gender. :p

I also believe people in general need to make better decisions. “Boys will be boys” only makes men less able to make good decisions and ultimately suffer consequences for their actions.

[latinabutterfly96]

Asker I’m sorry for all these notifications. 🤣

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 i swear every time i get a notification i get sent to this page
I've always been curious to hear how it is for other people? ↗

Not sure why that is.
I wanted to pm this instead of posting here

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 i disagree that the social aspects are harder on men i think ots the other way around.
I agree with the legal aspects.

Im sorry i dont have the energy to make an argument anymore.

My original point was regardless of all of that, a lot of men still dont care (which is not womens fault) , but women should understand that fact and therefore be more careful.

[latinabutterfly96]

Me too! Why does it happen? It’s annoying haha!

-You don’t have to agree. I’m not trying to convince you. That is actually how it’s been. The man loses all the respect he had from people if he doesn’t commit to his baby. It’s kind of a universal thing. :p

[latinabutterfly96]

(Legally, too)

[latinabutterfly96]

Both should be equally careful and are equally responsible for their own decisions. You accuse me of saying that women are less responsible and then you actually have the audacity to say that they should be MORE careful. Not true, I’m sorry but it’s absolutely not true. Haha

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 yes but a woman also loses respect when she becomes a single mother. At least thats how it is where im from. And i hear single mothers are less desirable in a lot of places, so its not just an isolated thing.

And in my experience, men who knocked girls up and didn't stay, somehow manage to score many more women.
I can't say the same for most single women, unless they are very attractive.
This is why i have my opinion on the social aspect.

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 whats the problem with being more careful though?

Its for your own good.
You know for a fact that you will be carrying a baby when you get pregnant. So i dont understand why women shouldn't be more careful.

Amd i didn't accuse you of shifting away responsibility from women, i accused the op.

[latinabutterfly96]

I didn’t say single mothers were praised or glorified. I said they were, but at a lesser extent than men. And yes, he can have one night stands and so can the single mother. But if he wants to start a relationship, the woman he’s seeing will somehow find out (he will tell her or she’ll find out) and most women that are our age are not interested in single dads- especially those who aren’t involved in their kids life. That’s common sense, hun.

[latinabutterfly96]

The problem isn’t “being more careful.” The problem is “being more careles just because I’m a guy.” You are encouraging this behavior, and people who hold this opinion aren’t thinking in a reasonable manner. Because both parents created the child, therefore both parents are equally responsible. And both should’ve been careful equally if they didn’t want a child. It’s simple, not that difficult to grasp. :p

I know lots of guys don’t care. But I also know lots of women don’t care either. Both of those cases are tragic and ends with miserable children. But if the man doesn’t want to be disrespected by society, if the man doesn’t want to deal with 18 years of child support, if the man wants to have a productive life, if he doesn’t want his son (or daughter) to come to his house years later and confront him, or if he doesn’t want to simply fail at life, why would he be less careful than the woman? It makes no sense. If I were a guy I’d be as careful as you think women should be, because I’d have better life choices to make dude. I’d respect myself more if I were a guy, and more men should respect their own body and life as well. It’s sad how lots of them end up

[latinabutterfly96]

I said they were criticized * (first paragraph), forgot to add the word

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 i still think that single dads have it comparatively easier than single moms.
Just my anecdotal evidence. Not my personal experience, from seeing other dudes. I know single dads that got good things going on for them (money, good job, stable) get more interest than regular single guys. I dont see any single moms, regardless of success being more popular than single girls.
Thats where my opinion differs.

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 im not encouraging this behaviour, lol.
I know amd talk to more dudes than girls, and im a bit passionate (may be too much for my own good) about these issues.

The ones that do care, agree and dont really need a talking to anyway. Most guys who are careful are actually very strict with their behaviour amd choices in general.

But the majority of young dudes. Just dont give a shit and won't change. I mean i try. But even if they agree (which very few do) , later they go about their usual way again. No change.
They are just thinking short term. The sex drive drives them.

I was hoping that women would be more inclined to be careful about it.
I mean you are the keyholders to sex. If you say no, its not gonna happen.
But if like you say， the girls are just as bad as the dudes, then were fuxked.

[lord_chilled]

* i try to convince them

[latinabutterfly96]

“If you say no it won’t happen”.

Oh my gosh. I didn’t know that... that’s such an amazing revelation! Did you know that if men say no, it also doesn’t happen? Oh my. Who would’ve known.

Lmfao. You’re a funny guy. I like you 🤣

[latinabutterfly96]

It is based on your own personal experiences. I don’t mean to sound arrogant but I’ve studied behavior since I was in high school (in my 4th year of university now). I’ve always been very interested in human behavior and gender.

The majority of young PEOPLE don’t care, dear. I don’t like how men talk negatively about their own gender - you’re better than that. :)

[latinabutterfly96]

“I’m not encouraging this behavior.”

You are, but for some reason you don’t notice it. But it’s ok.

When you say women “should” be more careful, there’s an implication that guys should be less careful or more careless than women. You are in fact encouraging such behavior. And no, most men aren’t irresponsible. I don’t know what kind of men you meet, you must have pretty shitty male acquaintances and friends (no offense)?

[latinabutterfly96]

Also, this may sound quite racist (to any black person reading this) but they tend to have the highest percentage of single mothers / careless parents. Especially in the US, where the culture is becoming pretty shitty as a whole. So if you live there, I get it. But it isn’t the same for the rest of the world. Sorry. 😝

[latinabutterfly96]

I mean... like I said, if I were a male I would still rather respect my own life rather than ruining it with a lifetime of child support and lack of productivity on top of stigmatization. No thanks!

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 thats not the point. Men seek out sex. Women accept or deny. Thats how it gies for the vast majority of the time.

You said you studied human behaviour. If you studied sexual behavioir then you should know this.

Since women are the gatekeepers of sex you can regulate male behaviour to an extend. It doesn't work like that the other way around.

Imagine this, there are 100 girls and a 100 men. If 90 girls dwcided they would only have sex after marriage, then, even if all the 100 men were seeking sex, only 10 girls would have sex and possibly be pregnant.

But if 90 boys decided that they would not have sex, but if the 100 girls wanted it, it would still be possible for all 100 of them to have sex and get pregnant. You see the difference?

Thats the difderence in power when it comes to sexuality between men and women. This is why women and womens actions have more influence.
Its really simple logic.

And i think we can both agree that men are much hornier and have a higher sex drive.
And if you disagree you can look up testosterone and its effect on sex drive.
And men have 10-20 times the amount of testosterone that women have.

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 i dont mean to talk negatively, im just being realistic and talking about my experiences. I always give credit where credit is due.

" When you say women “should” be more careful, there’s an implication that guys should be less careful or more careless than women. "
No that is not true. Just because one group should be more careful, doesn't mean another grouo has to be less careful as a result.
We are both looking for a positive result , not just to balance things out. If one becomes less careful as the other becomes more careful then that cancels each othwr out, there will be no positive result.
All i said was that i dont really expect males to bexome more careful. I have a bit more hope that girls would, and that would bring about a bigger shift due to reasons i mentioned in the previous comment. Thats all i said. Im not promoting guys to be less careful. Its not a balancing equation 😂😂. And also, when i irge men to be more careful, how can i be promoting the opposite?

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 and i dont live in the us, and single mom households are not as common here, but i fear it might become more common.

For now its not that bad. What about your place?

[latinabutterfly96]

🤦‍♀️... oh Jesus.
It’s more complex than that. The mentality you have is pretty common amongst young men who just read something and say OOH... this is it! The answer to all my questions 😈

I mean I get it. I also used to act like I knew what I was talking about, but it isn’t as simple as 2+2. Human beings are extremely complex and simply saying “this equals that because X” is too reductionist. I’m very sorry, but it’s not black and white.

Having said that, there’s other fun facts you should know.
1- women sleep with guys because they’re horny and are also sexual beings. We have a libido and want to satisfy it. We don’t “accept” sex; we seek it. Women don’t go to clubs with mini skirts to “accept” men, sweetie.

2- It’s easy to make dumb decisions when you’re horny. It’s usually the guy who carries the condoms, but if they’ve both gotten far enough, it’s hard for both of them to say “we can’t do this - we should stop this.” It is difficult for both of them.

3- The burden doesn’t fall more on the woman, as you keep stubbornly believing. They can choose to abort the child depending on how much it’ll benefit *her*. The man has little to no say in the matter, and he is forced to depend on her decision. They’re constantly thinking “will she decide to have this baby that’ll ruin my life, or will she decide to abort it?” Men don’t have a say. And it’s unfortunate but that’s how it is.

4- Men are able to say no. Men don’t think about fucking a girl every second of every day. Men aren’t a stereotype. Men are more rational and smarter than that; they aren’t brainless animals with no self control. Portraying men as if they were hurts them (you) as a whole, and you end up getting hurt because of that belief.

[latinabutterfly96]

What I’m trying to say is, if a man is stupid enough to make this decision, that’s his call and it’s also the call of the girl he slept with. Both of them should’ve been careful. Equally careful. One doesn’t get to be more careful than the other only because they happen to carry the baby. The man will end up hurt as well. In other ways, but still equally devastating.

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 lol you talk as if you are much older and more experienced than me, when you are actually younger than me.
The fact is that you have no counter argument to my argument and are now defecting.

Lile i said, women have more influence on sexuality and reproduction than men have.
Its one of the reasons why women have recieved more protwction than men. Even if many men went to war and died, as long as there are enough women, society can still survibe and grow back to its previous size. But if a lot of women die, then it will take much longer dor the population to grow to ots original size again. That is just simple biology and facts. These are thing which you cannot argue against.

Nothing is ever truly equal in nature.
Its is what it is.

And by the way, yes i know that women desire and seek sex too. But its not comparable to men.

I will say that womem seek as much sex as men the day women start to thirst after normal men as much as men thirst after normal girls. When men start talkimg about how many women grope men and stare at them and they feel uncomfortable and all those things that women say, that day women will have as much sex drive as men do.

You cannot argue against these things because i have scientific facts backing these arguments.
You can research the effects of testosterone as i said.

Women who take testosterone for sports will immediately notice the extreme difference in sexual appetite and many have talked about those experiences. Thats the closest thing a woman can come to understanding male sex drive.

[lord_chilled]

A womans sex drive is fluctuating, there are times during the day and even during the month where it is higher than other times due to monthly fluctuation of hormones.

It is sais the peak is during the time od ovulation.
Men dont have a cycle, as long as he is healthy we have a steady sexual appetite 24/7 . It only varoes depending on how satiated we are.

Scientifically, it is pretty much a given that men are on average more driven by sex than women.
And also, women approach men much less than women approach men. And wlmen are also more selective than men. This is universal and doesn't depend on culture, you can ask any person anywhere on the planet and they will say the same. More men approach women that women approach men. This is just a fact. No arguments here either.
And moat of the time women approach menx they make themselves available but dont actually initiate. The man initiates.

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96
2. I have been extremely horny and had sex many times. That didn't override my rational mind. Every time it was not serious i always wore a condom.

The only times i dodnt wear a condom where with women i was ready to have children with, in case it happened. Being horny doesn't mean all of your rational thought goes away. And even if you make a "mistake" you can still be responsible enough to take responsibility.

3. The burden DOES fall more on the women for many logical reasons that i have explained many times. Laws and attitudes may change. These laws you are talking about came very recently, and even a few centuries ago things were different. In a few centuries things may change again. Biology doesn't, biology stays constant. This is the one we dont agree upon.
And i dont think we will, so lets just agree to disagree.

4. Point i relate that to this one, im not saying that men are simple minded or putting men down. This is a classic feminist argument when a man explains male nature logically. I never said that thats all men think about or that we are only driven by that. Those are your words, not mine. I said sex is a big motivator and the sex drive that men have, is something that women cannot understand. Maybe if you took a medium dosage of testosterone, you might. That doesn't mean all men make wrong or unthought decisions, but some do, and we are more likely to do so. Thats all i wanted to say. Its normal and its not bad. The reason that humans are successful is partly because men take risks and are driven in this manner.
But there are negatives to ot as well, thats all i said.

[lord_chilled]

@latinabutterfly96 anyway im tored of this discussion and wish to end this as we are not going to agree.

I think women should be more careful than men because they get pregnant. They have more to lose. There is no equality in nature and this is just how it is.

There are certain things which are more important to women and certain things more important to men.
That is my opinion.
And it seems like many people agree with this opinion.

[latinabutterfly96]

Hahahahahaha.

[latinabutterfly96]

It’s okay. Don’t worry. You can have Your own opinions and I won’t take that right away from you. 😂😂

[latinabutterfly96]

But it’s just sad at this point. I might be a few months or even days younger, since my birthday is upcoming, but I have studied this more extensively thus have more knowledge about it. But hey, everyone can have the same opinions even if they have all the evidence against them.

You can continue to believe women “should be more careful because they get pregnant”, and ill continue to know that men should be equally careful because an unwanted baby (especially if it’s born without his input, he can’t decide if the baby gets aborted) can ruin his life very easily. It’s not the same for women because she has all the power in her hands. She is able to give it up for adoption or abort. The man can’t do jack shit even if he wanted to

[latinabutterfly96]

“I have been extremely horny and had sex many times...”

Then why are you portraying men as irresponsible pigs? As if they’re these useless animals that are just for sex? You keep implying that and I don’t appreciate it because I know men are much more capable than that. And you aren’t doing yourselves a favor if you talk negatively about ur own gender.

No, the burden doesn’t fall more on women. Like I said, she can literally do anything she wants with the baby. If she’s in college she can easily abort or put it up for adoption. If she’s ready to have children she can have it, even if the man isn’t ready and he’s gonna be the one who ends up having the bigger burden. It’s all up to her and you know it.

Sigh... I love when some men say “logically” as if they’re this godly creature who thinks 100% rationally and scientifically. You are just throwing baseless opinions because you feel like I’m somehow putting all the responsibility on men and I’m not. I never mentioned that, and you FEEL (not think) that I’m attacking you. Lol

Okay. It’s getting a little absurd now. I’ll let you be in your comfy pink bubble then. 🤣

[latinabutterfly96]

“It seems like many people agree...”
Eh... um... uh... not exactly. But okay.

[rjroy3]

Largely appreciate your well-rounded takes on this site. For this one I think you're a little off base tho.

"There's always some long speech about how she must be a hoe, should have used birth control and is an overall horrible person. It's like people absolutely forget that to get a woman pregnant..."

100% agree with the commonality of representing the girl as a hoe. That is common and it is inherently stupid, because that doesn't necessarily represent the majority of women who do get abortions.

"A man has to be involved int he equation somehow."

And? It's common knowledge that in our society today the man has zero say on whether or not a woman gets an abortion. It is 100% her decision. So what sense does it make to get on the guys case in the sense of the actual abortion? It's not his decision to make. If you want to get on his case about an unwanted pregnancy, then okay that makes sense and the flipside of the case where the child is kept. Men universally are the ones who get shame if at any point in time they are not fulfilling their duties as a baby daddy. That's why we hear about dead beat dads, but you never hear deadbeat mom when that is very much a thing as well.

"Now, I know some dipshit in the comments is going to say: ROAR CRAZY FEMINIST YOU SUCK AHHHHHHHHHH!!!""

Probably, and i'll scroll down to probably see you be proven correct lol. That said, I'm not one of those guys and I largely agree with the idea that you're off base on this one. This is an area where the woman really is 100% at fault (in the case of an abortion being decided upon) and to suggest as if we should give equal blame to men is kind of silly when it's not their decision to make. The man can want to keep the child, but the girl doesn't want it and gets the abortion. So we should shame the guys who wanted to keep their child, when it was forcibly removed from them? Kind of heartless. Not saying that's the majority of cases either. But just pointing as to more reasoning why the premise is off to begin with.

[Naydyonov]

Abstinence is the most effective method of avoiding abortions. That goes to both parties. Every consensual sexual act automatically is an acceptance of the possibility of pregnancy.
Sex is a basic need — yes. But, luckily, it is not an immediate one.
Unlike food or water, the argument cannot be made for "sex out of need." No. If we look at western countries, then in many or most:
— water must be provided to a person in a food establishment; sex does not, neither does food though.
— A person can legally break into another person's residence in order to escape the elements which may lead to death (like extreme cold)
— A person upon arrest must be provided with food, water, and medical treatment, if any of it is required.

Nowhere is sex actually considered to be an immediate need — such as water. This is why the homeless dude can break a window and chill inside a person's house (they may still face consequences, but it will likely be reduced) but another dude cannot throw himself onto a girl and rape her.

And so, to me, sex is a non immediate and non essential need. As is love. I don't advocate for the abolition of abortion rights, I do however believe each woman should pay for it seldom. No government financing, and no abortions after brain activity is detected (roughly 12 weeks.)

Now regarding the fault:
Yes, it is the fault of both — socially. Legally, and technically financially, only her's. The reason being the following: the woman can choose to abort a man's child as her own will. A woman can equally choose to obligate a man to support an unwanted child for 18 years. If she holds both powers, she also needs to hold the responsibilities. As Spiderman taught us all: "With great power comes great responsibility." That means either dividing the power, by giving the man a say in the outcome of the pregnancy, or by having her take the financial responsibility of terminating the life. Of course she can still demand he contribute, but not on a legal basis.
Now, the right that a man should/would retain regardless, in the right of information. I. e: a test to confirm it is his child.

[Robjo1]

Unwanted pregnancy is a really tough subject for everyone. You are correct that unwanted pregnancy is as much the mans fault as the womans (I use the word fault for lack of a better one), however like it or not the woman has to deal with the consequences of it, being abortion or having the child and either raising it or giving it up for adoption. The man, should he chose to be an irresponsible jerk, can avoid the consequences much of the time. Unfortunately for the woman, this means that she should take the lead in birth control situations, either by taking birth control or making sure the man has contraceptives. It’s not fair or right, but it is reality. As for society dealing with the woman differently than the man, that too is simply as sad part of life. Hopefully as we mature as a society this will change, but people are slow to let go of antiquated ideas. Keep your head up and don’t let people make you feel ashamed knowing that there will always be ignorant morons that you cannot change

[RationalMale]

Men certainly have responsibilities for pregnancies. That's why we violate laws against debtor prisons just to send men to prison for not paying child support.

Here's the thing though.

Women have literally all the power in pregnancy. They can literally commit statutory rape and get child support. They can literally impregnate themselves with sperm from a condom and get child support. Or they can abort the child whether the father wants to be a father or not.

Men's standard: "Oh you got a girl pregnant accidentally? Pay up or go to prison, you're a father and you gotta man up!"
Women's standard: "Oh you got pregnant accidentally? Feel free to just kill the child if you want!"

heartiste.files.wordpress.com/.../...onnation.jpeg

[DDpsy]

I am not even pro-life but this take is ridiculous.

"Because none of us has EVER been in a situation where we were so blindly horny that we made a dumb decision. No, no, we're all perfect human beings who NEVER make mistakes, it's only women who find themselves in an unwanted-pregnancy situation who do that.

Well... if you're a hardcore pro-lifer blaming women for shit, you probably never have been that blindly horny."

Sorry but that is absolutely bullshit. We have a good enough opinion of women to think they are more than just out of control monkeys that just lose all reasoning functions at the sight of a dick. You are supposed to be strong independent women in control and I will sure judge you for being completely irresponsible in your choices of partners.

Oh and I of course never been out of control blind horny like that because I am not a brain-dead rabbit thinking 100% with my dick.

"No one seems to point the finger at the guy who refuses to wear a rubber, and who likely pressured the fuck out of the woman to not be a total drag and he'll "totally pull out." "

Well people would probably point the finger at the guy if he was anywhere to be seen, but since he probably is some random blindly horny guy that you don't even know the name of, they can't

[ChronicThinker]

Some good points here, not gonna lie. Still stand by what I say, but I acknowledge yours too.

[Anonymous]

It's true that it's the responsibility of both, but this is still a dumb argument. A lot of it is weak excuse making.

In the case of the guy who refuses to wear a condom, he's clearly an idiot. Everybody knows that. But she's also an idiot for going through with it. Once I was with an ex-girlfriend and we didn't have a condom, and she said "just do it anyway, I won't get pregnant". I already knew she wasn't on any birth control. Guess what I did? I just didn't have sex with her.

The talk about humans being "imperfect" is just an excuse for stupidity. I was drunk at the time too, a lot of people make that excuse also. Being so horny that you make a mistake isn't an excuse either, you can over-ride those feelings. You're mentioning being "pressured" into having unprotected sex - how about being more assertive and telling the guy to fuck off? Let him whinge about it as much as he wants, away from you.

It's really easy not to get pregnant or get anybody pregnant. Just don't be an idiot and have unprotected sex. Stop making excuses.

As for making it harder to get birth control, are they preventing people from buying condoms? If not, then again it's a dumb argument. Get a job, earn money, buy condoms.

There's also the fact that people have sex with people who they know are idiots. It's much easier for women to get laid than it is for men. I'm not complaining about supposed "unfairness", it's just a fact that any honest person knows already. Women have more choice in who they have sex with. Sure, they get approached by a lot of idiots - just don't have sex with them. Don't let a loser nut inside you.

[LegendarySir]

I guess it's just like the pro-choices make it all about the woman too. Just look at the name of the movement: "pro-CHOICE". The whole movement is about women being able to choose what to do with their body... but what about the man? Sure, he's not the one pregnant, but like you said, to make a baby you need a man's sperm, so the baby is just as much as hers as it is his... but why does he have no choice when it comes to keeping his kid? All the responsibility of the decision lies on her, so she not only has a say in the life of the kid, but also in the life of the man. That's pretty unfair, and extremely sexist.

That being said, I've heard many pro-lifers blame the man too, and scold the man if he decides to wash his hands and try not to take responsibility for what he did. I very seldom hear them them put the whole blame on women, and when I have, is when they argue with pro-choicers, which makes sense, how can you not make it about just women when the pro-choice side makes it all about women?

I'm pro-abortion during the first stage, but I extremely dislike the pro-choice movement, because of the way their views regarding pregnancy and how ignorantly see our society.

[John_Doesnt]

This is a great take. Unfortunately it will fall on deaf ears because they repeat the same rhetoric "what about the baby's choice?" You made some great points though and I still say it's a woman's body and choice because the men aren't the ones who have to go through the pain of pushing it out.

[kingofthellamas]

Great take. Totally agree, pregnancy is not just the fault of the women.

Effective birth control is in the history of the human species very recent. Change in behaviour is slower.

For a long time prior to that women were very protective over who they would have sex with as the risk from sex was so much higher for them.

The result is a culture (that we still have) where out of respect for themselves women are assumed to have more responsibility to protect themselves from pregnancy.

I'm not saying I agree with this but I am trying to explain the cultural truth you are highlighting.

[NatashaJ]

To be honest I wonder if pro-lifers are just losers who have no lives so they meddle into other people's lives for entertainment. People talk no matter what you do whether you choose to only have sex when you get married or wait for the right person, or don't do hookups or do hookups there always going to be a miserable bitch talking about you and you know what who cares what they think? abortion is a women's right and if you a miserable shit who needs to feel better about themselves by talking shit about women who have abortions I don't think they ever be a happy person.

[Walviston]

A moral wrong can never be a legal right.

[NatashaJ]

@Walviston isn't also having sex before marriage a moral wrong too? depending on a religion you have you been committing sins so hypocritical when aborting cells is not murder.

[Walviston]

Yes, having sex before marriage is a moral wrong

[NatashaJ]

@Walviston huh and society deems abortions not morally wrong or illegally and yet you and many pro-lifers keep making sins and expect us pro righters to not judge you people. You people are hypocrites and pathetic really. I bet 100% you did broke a sin and you won't admit it lol.

[EclipseoftheHeart]

So wait, a guy is not supposed to control himself when he sees a naked lady, but a woman doesn't have to control herself if she gets aroused, especially if there is going to be a chance - and there is - of getting pregnant? Yes, it takes 2 to tango but it isn't the guy who is going to get pregnant. If a girl is in any situation where she might have sex then she should be on birth control or SHE should have condoms available and make sure they are worn. No one is going to look after you so you have to look after yourself. A woman has the power to just say no to sex. If she doesn't, and she is not on birth control, and does not make sure a condom is used, and she gets pregnant, than it is her fault, and no one else's but her own. If she can't have sex safely and responsibly, then she should keep her legs crossed. Blaming someone else for your bad judgement does not fly in this instance.

[EclipseoftheHeart]

To those that down voted me. If you feel it is someone else's responsibility to take care of you when you can't make responsible decisions and not being able to control your horniness then don't have sex. You can never expect the guy will be responsible because they just think with their other head.

[mistixs]

A man also has the power to just say no to sex. And if he doesn't, and does not make sure contraception is used, and he impregnated someone, it's no one's fault but his own.

[mistixs]

"You can never expect the guy will be responsible because they just think with their other head." By that logic, if we can't expect men to be responsible, why are men allowed to be in positions of power?

[EclipseoftheHeart]

@mistixs You got me on that one. I only know that a wealthy man can get just about any woman he wants. Now what does that say about us women? :(

[mistixs]

What does that have to do with this?

[EclipseoftheHeart]

@mistixs You asked why men are able to be in position of power - because they are usually the ones who have the money.

[mistixs]

A person who's irresponsible shouldn't be allowed into positions of power, no matter how much money they have.
If being irresponsible & thinking with your genitals is able to exempt you from certain responsibilities, than it's fair to likewise exclude you from certain careers.
Now I'm not saying I personally think that's true for men, but that's the logical conclusion if we go by the idea that you're proposing (that we can't expect men to be responsible).

[FakeName123]

This isn't even close to the argumentation most pro-lifers have. You pretty much missed the point altogether. Or you purposefully shift the goalpost.

Either way. The argument the majority of pro-lifers have is that it is simple, plain murder to abort. Because they consider the fetus a valuable human life and not just a "parasite" or whatever other explanation some people use (hint: a fetus doesn't fulfill the requirements to be a parasite).

And that's essentially what this argument comes about. Is the fetus considered a living human being or not? If it is, then it's plain murder and in terms of ethics I think most people would agree that being against murder trumps self-fulfillment. If it isn't, then indeed aborting is just getting rid of a "clumb of cells":

[ApacheGazella]

Okay, so i I’m pro life, but a lot of times the girl did get raped or hurt or Is too young or just can’t take care of it, but at least give it up for adoption? isn’t it a human too? baby’s can be aborted up until the literal point of birth, that’s murder! Over 7 million have been aborted now, do I thin that’s okay? I’m not hating, just sharing my opinion, and wondering why people think it’s ok to Literally Rip a Newborn baby Apart. And sometimes just for the sake of wanting to Live your life instead of having the responsibilities. Or u just don’t want to, is that really ok?

[Salmon4056]

Agree

[LaBrownEyes]

I wouldn't consider myself a pro lifer. However... So blindly horny is an excuse but not an excuse from you taking responsibility for what will happen to your own body if shit goes south. If you're mature to be having sex then you should be mature enough to not be pressured... I mean honestly, it's just silly. I'm just saying. In the end, the woman gave permission for the act of sex to happen assuming the guy asked/initiated first as per usual. I agree woman aren't always completely at fault for getting pregnant (Rape, Faulty BC etc) yes shit happens, but I do believe we are the ones primarily responsible for what goes into our bodies and protecting ourselves from things such as unwanted pregnancies. As they say "Momma's baby, Daddy's maybe"

[Robertcw]

Sometimes the girl initiates, even knowing it’s without a condom.

[LaBrownEyes]

Absolutely

[Phanta]

Let's not try to make my pro-life stance look bad by bringing up rotten jerks and making all pro-lifers out to be that way. That's a straw man argument. "Every pro-life post about abortion is..." Then you haven't seen my My Take titled: If Unborn Babies Could Talk. "There's always some long speech about how she must be a hoe". WRONG I would never do that. "No one seems to point the finger at the guy..." I point all my fingers at the guy. "We just point our finger at the woman." Whoever does that is acting like an idiot. It obviously takes two to tango.