Egalitarianism is NOT equality

[esotericstory]

In ancient Sparta the Spartans were called 'Homoioi'. This means 'equals'. They were called that way because they only received Spartan citizenship when they passed through the Agoge. This means that spartan citizens were regarded as equals through citizenship.

In ancient Athens every citizen had the right to the Agora go to the and have their voices heard. This means that on top of the citizenship equality, they also possessed political equality. Every citizen has the right to a political platform. This is the basis of democracy. 51% majority voting is the decision making mechanism that is only democratic when every citizen has a right to a political platform.

Places like the Soviet Union had 51% majority voting mechanism, but were not democratic. Why? Because citizens did not have political equality, meaning that they did not have a right to a political platform.

Before you say Sparta was not democratic, it was, its democratic body of government was called the Apella.

Egalitarianism is literally an entirely different ballpark. Egalitarianism asserts that:

"Egalitarianism is the doctrine of the equality of mankind and the desirability of political and economic and social equality."

Do you read that? Desirability of political, social and economic equality of entire mankind. Never before in the history of mankind has it been asserted, that all humans be created as equals. Neither that they should have access to an equal amount of money.

And you know why?

Beyond political equality and equality of citizenship, egalitarianism is an opinion.

You CAN NOT become economic equals. There is no maximum amount of wealth therefore it cannot be distributed equally, therefore there is no economic equality possible!

Social equality is saying that a drug user who abuses their own body is the equal of an elite athlete who treats their body with the respect it deserves.

If these two are indeed to be considered as equals it is an ideology of egalitarianism or as it says, the desire to equality.

Never again say that equality and egalitarianism are the same thing. The same fallacy is to think that wanting social policies is socialism because both are about 'social'. One is a tool the other an ideology.

Thank you very much for reading my rant all the way to the end! I hope it was at least a little informative.

[KungfuCyborg]

What else can i say but you're absolutely missing the point!

Lets look at this example you used: "social equality is saying that a drug user who abuses their body is the equal of an elite athlete who treats their body with the respect it deserves."

In many ways they are precisely equal. If either one of them is in car wreck, they should be helped by paramedics and hospitals exactly the same. If they do the exact same job, they should recieve the same pay. In some ways they aren't equal, for example sports scholarships, the athlete is obviously going to be favored and rightly should be. But if a black athlete and a white athlete both apply, they should recieve equal consideration based on their abilities not their skin.

Your false analogies show that you dont really understand what about equality or egalitarianism that people want implemented in society. Its not about a communist utopia where everyone lives in exactly the same house and earns exactly the same wages, its about equal opportunity to pursue the life you want.

When you hear or see the phrase "equal opportunity employer." That egalitarian ideals at work. When EMTs treat peoples wounds without asking them what religion or party they are, thats egalitarian ideals at work.

"Never again say that equality and egalitarianism are the same thing."

Just watch me😉

Not only are equality and egalitarianism essentially the same thing, egalitarianism is equality implemented in all the right ways so that people are equally free to be different.

[esotericstory]

Wrong. Equality of citizenship and political equality as classical antiquity institutions as explained in the mytake are not synonymous with the modern ideology/worldview of egalitarianism. In the same sense that a social policy is not synonymous with the ideology of socialism for example also given in the mytake.

[esotericstory]

The social problems solved in my own country only apply to members of my own citizenship. The rest of the world does not get to receive a taste of our victories over our own social problems. Every people their own destiny.

Every people must solve their own unique problems. This is why we can have equalities of citizenship. Egalitarianism is the world view or ideology that all individuals are equal. They are not. It is an opinion, or a desire that they are as in a value judgment, but they are not equal.

Equality of citizenship is easily shown to be superior in political conflict. Be that conflict economic, diplomatic or military conflict. When a soldier shoots the enemy soldier, there is no universal equality. When a diplomat does diplomacy on the behalf of their own country and citizens, there is no universal equality (egalitarianism) if an economic treaty is signed between countries in their own interests, and not in the interests of other countries, there is no equality.

[KungfuCyborg]

Egalitarianism: the doctrine that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.

Thats what im talking about. Im not talking about communism, or socialism, or spartans. You seem to have some really shitty opinions hidden behind all your non-sequiturs, but i can't quite make them out. So let me ask you this:

Person A is not a citizen of the country they are in. Do they have the right to the following

1. Food and water?
2. A place to sleep?
3. Medical treatment?
4. Access to information?
5. A path to legal status and employment?

If you answered yes to all 5, you're an egalitarian. If you answered no to any of those, you fail to exhibit basic human decency. If you answered yes, except for (group of people) then you're exhibiting a prejudice such as racism, sexism, xenophobia, etc. Its that simple.

[esotericstory]

Egalitarianism as an ideology DOES NOT have a monopoly on equality. Socialism does not have a monopoly on social policies, capitalism does not have a monopoly on the market. We can have a pluriversality of equalities. Every people, their own destiny. No compromise, no surrender, no ideologies!

Egalitarians do not have a monopoly on decency. You understand that your ideology DOES NOT have a monopoly on decency!

Every people has the right to self determination, it says that in the UN human rights conventions. Every people can thus determine their own destiny regardless of ideology (like egalitarianism) or globalization.

To preserve the right to self determination every people has the right and the might to limit or allow legal migration insofar that they see fit according to their own destiny. And they also have the right to stop illegal migration!

[Grande_Beefy_Swirl]

Then that's not fully egalitarian, is it? Only within the confines of what the Spartans considered citizensship.

Egalitarianism isn't about wealth or citizenship. It's about recognizing that every person on this earth is your brother and to live your life accordingly.
Treat others with empathy and fight tyranny for the sake of your brethren because we are ALL of equal worth by virtue of being born human.

[esotericstory]

Thats an opinion, or a value judgment. It should not be in the law of a country.

[Grande_Beefy_Swirl]

How do you make 'egalitarianism' the law of the country? What does that even mean?

[esotericstory]

Ideologies are imposed by parties in the government through laws and policies on the population. Prior to the French Revolution, ideology politics did not exist. The culture and traditions of the population were then used to for laws and policies. For example, equality of citizenship in the Spartan political system was because of the Agoge, the spartan military school. That was their culture.

[Edanurus]

This seems like a distinction without a difference. Firstly you have to define "equality" as today its a buzzword that doesn't mean equal. Most of the time its used to justify unequal treatment based on perceived or historical.

So no egalitarianism isn't everyone being equal but that doesn't mean that its not equality, its about getting as close as you can since its desirable.

I could continue but that would be arguing semantics.

[esotericstory]

I define equality in three ways. Equality of citizenship, equality of right to political platform and the ideology of egalitarianism. If we want to know the ideology, we must only look for common themes in the literature that is written about it.

[Edanurus]

Wait so one of your definitions of equality is"the ideology of egalitarianism?" But egalitarianism isn't equality to you?

[esotericstory]

Press the blue words, they are links.

[Edanurus]

The links don't really provide anything that would help im not sure what I've missed there.

[esotericstory]

This is a mytake, not a political treatise.

[Anonymous]

I think you misunderstood the definition. We desire the same opportunities and rights for everyone. Not equal outcomes. It says "desirability" because it's not that way and will most likely never be that way, yet it is still desirable.

[esotericstory]

No, 'we' dont desire anything. Maybe you desire that. What desirable is highly subjective and highly debatable.

[Opinion Owner]

Of course. But that also means you don't speak for all egalitarians.

[esotericstory]

Your egalitarian utopia is really a dystopia. I don't want it. Its disgusting.

[Opinion Owner]

It's not a utopic principle. Its equal opportunities regardless of race, gender, social class, economic background, or whatever. There is no guaranteed equality of outcome, just a lack of oppression.

[esotericstory]

Thats a fallacy my dude. Opportunities are taken, not given.

[Opinion Owner]

I completely understand that. But you can't an opportunity that isn't available to you. Such as in a caste society where your only option is to follow in the family tradition with no choices. Or how about China, where school children are 'selected' as athletes based on anthropometric measurements whether they want to be an athlete or not?

[esotericstory]

Every people has a national consciousness and they can determine their own destiny. The people of Hong Kong choose a different destiny than the people of China. We deserve the leaders that we get. If we are not willing to fight we will receive nothing but oppression. If I create opportunities for the country and its people where I live, why should the whole world's population get access to the fruits of my labour?

[Opinion Owner]

That's why it says 'desirability' and not 'enforced' or 'mandatory' or whatever. Its desirable. I would love to see the world's people have the same opportunities that we have. I'm not willing to use coercion or force to press the issue upon others

[esotericstory]

Every people their own destiny period.

[Opinion Owner]

Every person their own destiny, as well

[esotericstory]

Every person is the product of a people and the culture of that people. Therefore equality of citizenship as explained in the mytake is a viable reality.

[Robertcw]

'Social equality is saying that a drug user who abuses their own body is the equal of an elite athlete who treats their body with the respect it deserves.' They are equals. Deal with it.

[esotericstory]

They are equals in opinion only. Nobody treats them as equals. Better quality people get better treatment from society. just look at the USA Hollywood establishment. If they are on Heroin, they go to rehab, if normal citizens are on Heroin they go to prison.

[Robertcw]

You are absolutely right. And that's exactly what's wrong with society. Bunch of narcissistic bastards running around controlling everything. But there's no reason someone else can't run things instead.

[AD240pCharlie]

That's why I don't stand for equality. POLITICAL equality, yes, but TOTAL equality, no! There will always be inequalities caused by hundreds of different factors, and that's okay. It doesn't mean that it has to be a problem.

[October808]

I wish you guy would list sources when you quote things exactly. Carry on with your exercises.

[esotericstory]

Everything is quoted my dude.

[esotericstory]

Sourced I mean.

[chunlilovesvega]

men and women are not equals.

men are superior, it's just fact.

[BlacklightShade]

Thanks for birthing and feeding all the babies male human.

[CubsterShura]

I hope this is a joke.

[chunlilovesvega]

Idiots. Women are the expendable ones in nature's way. Women go through all that pain and discomfort and bodily changes just to bring another being into this life. Meanwhile men just focus on life and creating and living. Women are just here to bring men into life, men are the ones who will make a difference.

You think suffering while birthing and going through period aches is being superior, lol I say not suffering and not going through any pain is being superior, and that is the male body. Nature puts all the shit on women, and doesn't give a shit when women even die at birthing.

[CubsterShura]

The fact that you think either of the two is superior is concerning.

[BlacklightShade]

Sounds like trolling to me.

[KungfuCyborg]

So you're actually a guy. Got it.

[Massageman]

Good points. Seemed kind of gentle for a "rant". :- )

[Anonymous]

Egalitarianism just means giving a fuck about everyone and not just females, or Latinos, or...

[ImpatiensSultani]

Good take