Left vs Right. Why our discussions about politics so fake and so disingenuous.

RolandCuthbert
Amen
Amen

I do not really like terms. A better approximation are the terms liberal and conservative.

At GaG we have this fake conversation constantly ongoing about politics. I can assure everyone here, no one is concerned about public policy in these discussions.

Conservatism is basically the ideology of the pragmatist. It is not extreme in any sense of the word. Its compelling in that it is based upon simple facts, logic, and basic truths. When I picture a man who is the definition of conservatism, I can see none other than Mr. George Will.

The Conservative Sensibility
The Conservative Sensibility

The ideology has several threads, but among the most compelling is Fiscal Conservatism. Fiscal conservatism is about cutting government spend, lowering taxes on the populace, cutting budget deficits and debt, and reducing the government's role in local politics to making certain that Constitutional freedoms and rights are guaranteed. But making certain that it has enough power and authority to enforce that guarantee.

A central government only strong enough to ensure freedoms for citizens.
A central government only strong enough to ensure freedoms for citizens.

Social/Moral/Ethical conservatism, was not just about religious beliefs. But also about conduct and character. Religious conservatives provided the source of morality and conscious for the nation. Be it in the abortion debate, slavery, equal rights, marriage/divorce, all the way to other end that was anti-gay, anti-premarital sex, etc. Not that they would seek legislation to prevent such things, but that these acts/beliefs did not lend themselves to building a strong stable society. The whole concept revolved around the concept of the nuclear family. Strong families built strong communities.

I became a conservative with the understanding I could believe in most of these ideals and principles while still being a proud young "Black" man. That I could think that affirmative action was bad. Not because of some fake belief that it hurt "White" people. But that it hurt the process that forced "Black" people to build the impressive educational infrastructure we had. I could be proud of the traditions, customs, beliefs, music, etc. that African-Americans had created in this separate sub-culture, while still being against abortion and federal welfare aid. I was proud to support policies like school choice, when I felt gave African-Americans to build the type of educational infrastructure we needed in our communities.

Well, it is quite evident now, that the debate is fake. Because we don't discuss public policy. We pretend to talk about social program or the social safety net. When no one cares about these programs. The term socialism is throw around and it has no meaning here. Because socialism is defined as the means of production, distributions, etc. owned by the government. Here is only means the social safety net. So none of these ideals or principles are in question. We quibble over silly nonsense like;

1. When a "White" woman refuses to date "White" men . . .that woman is by definition a liberal.

2. But a "Black" man who says derogatory things about "Black" women and refuses to date them is a "Conservative".

Left vs Right. Why our discussions about politics so fake and so disingenuous.

3. The constant confusion over making interracial dating a statement of politics. Sometimes it is liberal. . .sometimes it is conservative. Trolls can't make up their mind. But I think at this point we can say for certain they are disingenuous whenever the argument is put forth.

4. Constantly pointing out the failures or shortcoming of specific non-"White" communities, but calling any attempt of that community to resolve those problems on its own. . .racist. The point of Conservatism is to have individual communities, cultures, etc. resolve issues without government taxpayer funded relief, or "interference".

5. In this forum, the notion that America would be anything less than the leading democracy on this planet is considered to be "Conservative". That is beyond ridiculous.

6. No supposed Conservative here even knows what is written in the Constitution. It is a sad thing that we do not require the test I had to study, take, and pass when I was 13 years old. i was forced to read the entire Constitution and pass the test. It is a requirement in my state.

7. The constant defining of Conservatism as being "White" or European traditional values. Every single culture or ethnic grouping has Conservative values. They may not be ones "Whites" are comfortable with, that makes them no less Conservative. There is this persistent lie that all non-"Whites" do not have traditions or belief in strong communities, families, gun ownership, etc. American society isn't very sophisticated as somehow just because you are not "White", that means you support divorce, homosexuality, pre-marital sex, etc. A lot of non-"White" people are much more morally/ethically conservative than so called "conservatives". The funny thing is that at GaG they are considered to be EXCEPTIONS.

8. Some people are proud of their culture. Even if their culture isn't considered to be "White" or European. And that is the quintessential Conservative. Believe it or not.

I can't wait for the day when conversations will stop being fake. Having different views is admirable. Being so cowardly that you can't talk honestly about those differences is not.

Left vs Right. Why our discussions about politics so fake and so disingenuous.
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Most Helpful Guys

  • Kaazsz
    I think a lot of the argumentation is actually divided into three groups. Republicans/conservatives. Liberals (who could
    Be considered centrists now). And leftists, aka college educated, Marxist/socialists trained by philosophy departments and sociology departments. And the reason why leftists are a relevant group is because many people view educated people as leaders of thought.


    So you have the leftists, many of which don’t even realize they are leftists. They are angry about capitalism, they are angry about wealth inequality, and they want to tear the entire structure down. They think conservatives are evil but don’t realize that liberals and conservatives are nearly the same thing. Both believe in as free of markets as possible, capitalism, and a strong government.


    Personally I like the libertarians. But in any case I focus on learning the roots at the moment. Because how can I decide what public policy is right if I don’t even understand the philosophical and ideological roots of all of this?


    John stewart mill. John Adams. John Rawls (so many john’s wtf lol) Robert Nozick.


    John Locke (another John wtf?) Thomas Paine, David Hume. The federalist papers.


    Then there’s John Maynard Keynes vs the Austrian school of economics. How about the infamous Milton Friedman?


    I’m sure there’s more. I’ve been compiling a long list of books to read and slowly going through them bit by bit.


    So far I still believe in the libertarian view of things. When I do look at policy I don’t like any of it. If I am forced to vote I wouldn’t be happy about it. I don’t like either side’s approach to be honest.


    At the same time I am trying to gain some level of faith in the system as it is today, and in the way public policy is done today, but so far I have yet to hear an argument or be convinced in any way that the way we have things today is better than a free society with minimal government. And I don’t think conservatives aim to do that whatsoever. Libertarian views are more extreme than conservative views.


    So why can’t the left and the right have honest discussions? After saying all that I haven’t answered the question and I’ll give my opinion on that in the next comment.
    Is this still revelant?
    • Kaazsz

      In my mind the reason why left can right can’t have legitimate discussion is a lack of principles.

      Conservatives have principles, true. But they do not stick to those principles when debating the left. The left does not have principles, the left has emotions and those are their principles.

      The left has adopted Marxist beliefs if you ask me. Equality of opportunity, equality of outcome. Those things do not fit in a capitalist free society.

      But the right keeps trying to argue with leftists based on leftist beliefs and emotions.

      Conservatives lie and twist the truth because conservatives are trying to appease the emotional liberal mind.

      The liberals are angry and full of hate and rage because conservatives do not agree that equality of opportunity and outcome are desired states of society.

      However the right can not argue for their principles. Or will not, I don’t know. The left debates with emotional tactics and “moral” superiority.

      The policies are increasingly partisan. As time has gone on, the left and right have voted further and further away. Rather, when you look at the votes, in the past, republicans would vote left some percent, and democrats would vote right some percent.

      That isn’t happening anymore. Democrats only vote left and republicans only vote right. Both sides are becoming increasingly isolated and volatile towards eachother.

    • Kaazsz

      Everyone has strayed away from the reasoned debates of the past. I’ve watched some government stuff uploaded to youtube from decades ago. They used to debate topics and go into at least some level of detail, making arguments and providing facts.

      Now if you watch the same stuff from today, you see moralizing and discarding facts as evidence. Policy is based on feelings and what will get votes.

      Everyone knows price controls on housing creates homelessness. Democrats and republicans, left and right all know this. The empirical evidence is not disputed.

      But you see the same old tired argument. Liberals calling conservatives evil for opposing rent control. Even though those same democrats know that there isn’t any debate. The leftist voters demand rent control because they don’t know ang better and so the left uses its moralizing emotional debate to win election.

    • I am just going to respond to your second post.

      The source of the fakery is the classification of left/right actually. You talk about Conservative principles. What principles would those be? Then you talk about the left being emotional.

      Well perhaps 20 years ago. But today? I am not certain how a belief in climate change is based upon emotion. Or how a belief that vaccines are killing people is based upon fact or "principle". Is a belief in race. . . conservative or liberal?

      This is the problem with labels. They have become nonsensical.

      Let's take the belief that there should be an equality of outcomes. If we look at something similar, it is hard to say you believe in capital punishment if you are going to be put to death for something you didn't do.

      I mean, I get it. I don't like the equality of outcomes concept. But folks who have that belief have it. . . conditionally.

      I don't. I believe in equality of opportunity.

      We don't have a conversation because we have no framework. In your previous post, you rant about evils of socialism and the greatness of capitalism. With no recognition that we are the world's leading democracy because we guarantee rights and freedoms to our citizens. And that Conservatism did not arise from free-market capitalism. . . but from the concept that the central government only need to be as big as to guarantee those rights and freedoms to each and every citizen. That's why we have free-markets.

      But if the government cannot make good on that guarantee, then it should not exist. Free-markets can only be as free as far as individual rights and freedoms of citizens are protected. And it is a balance that we don't even discuss anymore. Because we have less and less people who understand what is written in our Constitution.

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  • DiegoO
    If it's about the US, there is not a formal socialism in the US politics, or of any kind. The way the US politics works, and the society that shaped it, is completely right wing. With Trump there is the far right, with Biden moderate right.

    In an individualistic society with an really old democratic tradition, there is no space for colectivism, which makes a society more attached to the left, call it moderate or radical.
    Is this still revelant?
    • You are incorrect. The policies may not directly support socialism but they breed and allow it. They cut against our rights and so many of them.

    • Hmmm. . . brilliant observations.

      I disagree. But the post is brilliant and thoughtful.

      When I was young. I actually thought I would be a democrat. I thought I was liberal. Because I wanted to be this free open spirit. I didn't like the idea that I had duty and responsibilities. I had other issues too. But that is another story.

      Anyway, I matured and I saw that everyone had duties and responsibilities. But one of the most important things I realized was the ultimate lie of Western society.

      The lie of individuality. No one is an individual. We are either boxed into a group by our the society we are in, or we box ourselves with a group identity that makes sense for us.

      I understand how Europe views America. Of course the conversations there are not possible here. But reason why is the because of the concept of race. In Europe, cultural or ethnic definitions prevail. So Europeans think differently when it comes to their group integrity.

    • DiegoO

      Well I am not from the US, but the reason I indentify the US as a individualistic society is because of the concept of freedom the US relates to what constitutes a healthy democracy. At some point it gives a freedom you won't see in places like Europe, where a dominant culture and ethnocentrism prevail, giving place to a monogamous collective identity, that 's unsustainable under a prominent multi ethnic and multicultural demographic,

      For example, even though many Afro-Americans in the US don't keep up with their African ancestors traditions, due to the interpretation of democracy been Afro-American became an ethnic identity and been part of distinctive culture, with Africans roots.

      With Europe, for what I know, is not the case. The ethnocentrism and monocultural focus of european nations, unable their capacity to function efficiently as an example of a multi cultural and ethnic place.

    • Show All

Most Helpful Girls

  • Billie_
    Both sides are equally shit.

    The hard left - Wants to give power to minorities and take away from mainstream. Wants to give money to people who haven't earned it. Wants to eradicate christianity. Preaches "free speech" unless its speech they don't like.

    The hard right - Wants to take away power from minorities and give to mainstream. Won't give money to people who have earned it. Wants to promote christianity and eradicate other religions. Preaches "free speech" unless its speech they don't like.
    Is this still revelant?
    • Yeah, I am not into the both sides argument. I will say again, I am not the Chuck Todd of GaG.

      There is no side to the argument that we need a framework for discussing differences.

      That is just basic fact. To claim we can't resolve differences peacefully isn't a side. It is insanity.

  • Very nicely written... And a lot of what you wrote is exactly why I don't much like discussing politics on GAG. It's died down some, but for couple months there, you couldn't post anything in any topic with someone trying to turn it into Trump or Biden bashing and when I'd point out this post ain't about that I was either a libtard or a Trumptard when I don't identify with either as a whole.
    Is this still revelant?
    • Yeah for me it is not an either or debate. I am not the Chuck Todd of GaG. We don't have to agree with each other. But not agreeing on a framework for discussions isn't a left or right thing.

      It is insane.

    • I agree 💯

    • The framework itself is political. Having such a narrow "framework" of bullshit is what has led our country to the brink. Hate Trump? The ultra politically correct "framework" brutally enforced, is what have rise to him.

    • Show All

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What Girls & Guys Said

122
  • jshm2
    You've used a lot of words to say nothing, kid.

    Politics is 90% opinion, 5% policy, 4% marketing, and 1% facts.

    Nothing causes more divisions and wars than politics. But humans wouldn't really have it any other way.
    • Uhm, here is a few words.

      Either we agree on simple facts. . . like the sky is blue or we figure out how to split up and go our separate ways.

      Even you should be able to understand that.

  • normalice
    No, conservativism is just a scam. While pretty much everything that isn't based on a scam falls under the umbrella of liberalism. This is because the idea that anyone should stand above others by birthright is unbelievable without some sort of scam to trick people into it. Yet, if it werent for a lot of people born rich wanting to keep their money and be given more, there wouldn't be any conservatives. Like at all.
    • Djaay

      Yet , the truth about the rich are unequivocally to the contrary. Most are liberal who classify themselves as conservitive for the loopholes and benifits of monatary gain.
      Under they're very own skin , theyre busy taking what they can vrs giving anything. The epitome of the greedy one will always bounce back and forth on either right or left wing to balance the flight of the bird to its oppositional direction of deciet to fluctuate the monatary outcome from society itself using fear as the factor of gain against our contitutional guarantees.

    • normalice

      Right, that hypocrisy is an inherently conservative trait. A liberal would take issue with being called a conservative. Whereas a conservative doesn't mind being called a liberal if it benefits them.

    • Djaay

      Not true. History of our nation dictates otherwise. This two party system generates monatarily using either side by finger pointing and pitting one against the other to sweep they're gains away from them as quickly or quicker than earned. Like two gangs who rival each other , depending wich one you pick as a communion or not.
      Like i said , both wings belong to the bird.

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  • SomeGuyCalledTom
    #7 is perhaps the most pernicious one I see, coming mainly from white liberals who fancy themselves as "saviors of the oppressed black people". It's racism with extra steps, authoritarianism snuck in with the trojan horse of misplaced moral outrage. The way some white Westernised liberals talk about black conservatives is appalling, calling them "uncle Toms" while also preaching about "diversity and inclusion".
    • White liberals are the worst kind of cancer.

    • @KrakenAttackin Authoritarian ones for sure. I'm white and left-leaning, but I'm more of a libertarian and individualist, not an Authoritarian collectivist like most of the "woke" leftist types

    • What does this have to do with political discussions? I mean, you basically created this label. . ."White" liberal, then you go about listing disgusting beliefs that this group is supposed to have.

      Have you ever sat down and thought about what liberalism means all by yourself? Have you ever thought about what beliefs you would hold if you disbelieved in "race" and racial stereotypes?

      And would those beliefs be conservative or liberal?

      Or perhaps it is just idiotic to classify racial beliefs in that way?

      Just a thought.

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  • I don't think anyone should say derogatory things about race theirs , yours or any others. My wouldn't that be a better world..
    • No. Honestly learn to ignore. Real racism that reaches out and hangs you needs to be destroyed... oh he called me a name is just crybaby playground bullshit. People get stronger when they overcome hardship so hardship shouldn’t be stopped via rules or laws unless it’s hazardous to your health. Even then with proper raising we could teach our kids there’s consequences for being a little cunt. Like that guy that you fuck with in school cause you know the teachers will stop him... let him pound ya in the mouth bet you don’t do it again.

      We live in a world of self-importance, ignorance, irresponsibility, and consequences. We need to correct society to fix issues like this.

    • @VanillaSalt I don't know how this was a response to anything Wowgirl said.

      But there it is.

    • @WowwGirl But here is the the thing.

      I don't do race. So let's picking that has less to do with fantasies and mythologies. Let's talk about culture.

      We all know that African-American Culture is real. We know there is a real history. You can like it or not.

      But pretending it does not exist is just being disingenuous.

      It would be like saying you don't celebrate St. Patricks Day.

      Left vs Right. Why our discussions about politics so fake and so disingenuous.

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  • Seva4Beach
    In my opinion politics tend to represent personal beliefs, morals, and ideals — we tend to see our ideology as a part of our identity and when those beliefs are challenged people tend to take it as an attack on who they are as a person. Arguing over political beliefs is nothing new what is new is the manner in which people go about it. We’ve moved further and further away from civil discourse and the practice of debating to enhance understanding of political differences and now rely on the regurgitated rhetoric of individuals presenting themselves as respectable journalists, but in reality are highly unscrupulous people willing to toe the line as long as it remains profitable for them and more importantly whatever media conglomerate they represent.


    The arguments themselves rarely contain anything of real substance either even when it comes to seriously pressing issues that should be properly debated. Instead uninformed individuals and sometimes entire political parties take a straw man approach to refute arguments using fallacies and clever misdirection that creates the appearance of debate, but never actually addresses the issue properly. We use to debate in order to get the other guy or girl to come around or at least consider your point of view, these days however it’s not an individuals point of view that seems to be the issue it’s their mere existence that’s become intolerable to some. That’s an incredibly scary place for a nation to be.
    • Yeah, I don't buy the argument that politics represents morals or ideals. I think the era of trump refutes that idea. We don't debate public policy here. That's why I listed the silly things that draw people's ire.

      But the most troubling, most confusing and most terrifying thing is. . . creating a framework for conversations, resolving issues. . . is seen as a political ideology in itself.

      That is beyond insane.

      I guess you agree.

      I don't know if the goal of debate is supposed to be convincing others. For me, it is about clearly defining differences. Because differences is supposed to be good.

      Well, at least the Founding Fathers thought so.

  • Savage_Wisdom
    You know, in high school I had to memorize the entire constitution for one of my social studies classes. The final exam for that class was the U. S. citizenship test. It's been 15 or 16 years, so I don't exactly remember a lot of it to well, but I always thought all schools did that.
  • The_unknown_memer
    Great take and a well written one friend , I'm glad you decided to call out on this bullshit
    • I try. I have so many "takes" I want to get out there. I wanted to do a science take on the 10 biggest mysteries in science.

      I got busy all of a sudden. But in a week or so it will be dead around here. My client is locking up shop for the winter. All we are doing is praying for a better Q1/Q2.

    • Oh mysteries in science I'm looking forward to it? Can't wait for it to come

    • Haha!! It is about 80 percent done.

  • MAC1983
    What you said. Yes.

    Every word, every punctuation. Everything.
  • Jmmmfi4
    Lol people on here think they know so much about politics.
  • Seems like you are really hung up on race and black men dating white women. I am not certain what your summary point is.
    • If you can't understand an obvious point, why are you posting?

  • FCDALLASFAN
    Let be honest, nobody cares about each other’s political or religious beliefs. We already have our minds made up way before the conversation started. So why, bother debating it is pointless.


    Unless someone is actually taking part in campaigning or legislation it is all just pointless talk. Sure people vote. Outside of that there is nothing left to be said. It is a waste of time fuss about it.
    • The fact is we don't debate policy. We don't even debate religion. So why are people so committed to this disingenuous conversation?

      It isn't that debating is pointless, right? We can debate Affirmative Action, right?

      We don't.

      Why is that?

    • Oh, debating is not pointless with folks who have principles, believe in objective facts, truth, etc. Because you can establish a framework in which you can clearly point out disagreements. I mean, everyone here thinks I am Rodney King, because they hear what they want to hear.

      We don't debate just to find out what we agree upon, but also and more importantly what we disagree upon.

      In this debate, we can't even come to any real conclusion because it isn't that we agree upon something like a blue sky. . .. so what do we do about it? Then we have different solutions or conclusions we reach because of our different philosophies or principles.

      It is that we don't even agree the sky is blue.

      That's some crazy shit.

    • Well, you sort of just proved my point.

      You spent a lot of time on a comment that didn’t change my mind.

    • Show All
  • Heavenly_
    People should be a bit realist. Those weird conversations about left right stuff are boring and wrong as hell.
    • Because there is no context or detail. Nothing is actually discussed.

  • IlluminatiExposed0
    I think a lot of the confusion comes from the role of the two main American political parties. To a European observer it appears that the Democrats are conservative and the Republicans are borderline fascists.
    • In my eyes it’s these fucking democrats that want to take my police and guns that are fascists.

    • That's the thing. Conversations that we have here are not possible in Europe.

    • @VanillaSalt And that is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

      There is no framework for discussion with you.

      We can only see you rant, while foam and spittle get splattered all over everything.

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  • HungLikeAHorsefly
    Some of the best conversations around politics I've ever had online were around specific policy issues with people who disagree with me. That said, remember your audience here: it's GAG. I like to think it's not a representative sample of the world. People here are neck-deep in identity politics on both sides, and I don't see it getting any better any time soon. People here, for whatever reason, don't seem to be able to engage in constructive ways around politics. Although if you hit a little closer to home and discuss things that are meaningful to everyday life, people are more reasonable. Perhaps that's the common ground. I dunno.

    If I can offer a little (hopefully) constructive criticism: your post seems to intermingle ideas around dating with politics. That was a little surprising; I tend to think of those as two separate things with only superficial connections. Perhaps there's something deeper there, though?
    • Oooh, or maybe dating is the common ground. Tricksy...

    • This is not a GaG only phenomenon. This is our current state of politics. Our politics are broken. I lead discussion groups and it just isn't working. The funny thing is when I suggest splitting the nation up, people are surprised, they become upset. I don't get it.

      And this is the point.

      I always try to get people to focus on their personal experiences. I try to get them to hear other people's personal experiences. Because that is how we can relate.

      There is a growing view that relating personal experiences is the way "liberals" talk.

      And that view is insane. It also sabotages every single conversation I try to mediate.

  • Liam_Hayden

    Most of it is fake because really the primary argument is between two groups that both want less taxes for themselves but more services provided by taxes.
    • Nah, that isn't the argument. Do you pay less taxes than you did since you have been working? I mean, don't think you are working now.

      But anyway,

      I have been working since I was 19. I have done nothing but pay more and more taxes. . . and the U. S. debt has skyrocketed into the stratosphere.

      We need to stop being disingenuous,.

  • captain_voidwalker
    All I want if government to leave me the fuck alone and stop tacing my ass to death. One wouldn't think thats to much to ask for but apparently washington D. C. didn't get the fucking memo
    • Yeah, I don't know what that has to do with my post.

      We keep pretending the debate is over public policy.

      It ain't.

  • Tea-Spaghetti
    I like learning about different cultures and languages
  • Sabretooth
    • Yeah, we know this.

      I think the point is, if people throughout American society support disenfranchising other Americans because they don't like their politics, that does not leave us any framework for having a nation.

      We announced this world, that we were the leading democracy on this planet. If folks do not aspire to be that any longer, then let's have the conversation. Let's stop being disingenuous.

    • Sabretooth

      she's already useless

  • zagor
    Good post. I am so tired of people who, when you express an opinion on something, immediately assume you ascribe to everything that is associated with the side of the "divide" that that particular opinion is associated with. I have been called both a libtard and a trumpite on this and other sites. I consider myself an environmentalist and support a woman's right to choose to bear a child, but I also think that the right to own firearms to defend one's home is a fundamental right in this country, and think that unrestricted immigration is a bad thing - not because immigrants are bad people, but because rapid population growth is, and assimilation to a new culture is better than creating little subcolonies within the country.

    It seems like rational thought and discussion and basic civility has been on the wane for some time and I yearn for its return.
    • Yeah, it is weird. But I think we have to accept certain folks do not want a discussion.

      It appears to be part of a strategy.

  • Djaay
    Interestingly enough , if a person extracts politics , political correctness and opinionated political standings from they're personality , character and chemistry ; the freedom of they're well being becomes restored. The political caos will evaperate away from them as quickly as it infected them.
    Both right and left wing belong to the same bird. Nothing but a vulture who's always watching with intensions of deceit depending on the outcome of gathered fear factors collectively generated. Societal fear % factor is how our gov. responds intentionally towards its own finacial freedoms that are collectively stolen by lies and promises.
    • Yeah, I have such a hard time with this whole left/right thing.

      Trump was elected President. Is it left or right to sleep with porn stars?

      Maybe it is neither?

      We need a framework for discussions. Or we need a discussion that recognizes we can't be a country anymore.

  • Anonymous
    Because political ideologies and opinions aren't based on reason. They are based on making us feel good. For example, for Democrats, it's already pre-determined that Joe Biden will be a good president. For Republicans, it's already pre-determined that he will be a bad one. Obviously irrational, right? But why? Because people want to feel right. This make us feel good. Being wrong makes us feel ashamed, just being wrong must be avoided, at al costs. Most people would rather believe something that is false that makes them feel good than something that is true that makes them feel bad. It's not a left or right thing. It's a human thing.
    • Oh, they can be. I mean there was a time when a political discussion made sense. Affirmative action, budget discipline, debt, school choice, foreign policy, American exceptionalism, spreading democracy, were all different topics we agreed or disagreed on. There was a time when we actually had discussions. Maybe those discussions were always fake. I guess I have to admit to that possibility.

      As for a pre-determined Biden presidency, what does it matter? If we don't even agree on the process for electing Biden or Trump, what is the point of being one nation?

      I mean this is beyond silly. We have different ideas about how to run a nation. That is fact. A long time ago, we decided we would create a process for making that determination.

      So. . . since that is no longer the case, who has the courage to call things the way they are? We need to split up the nation.

  • Anonymous
    tl;dr
  • Anonymous
    I'm not right-leaning or leftist.
    I see lots of fuck shit with both. And caveman tribalism.
    I vote my interest short and simple.
    • A discussion about a framework for conversations it not "left-leaning", or far right.

      It is common fucking sense.

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