Do you think that MGTOW is stupid?

[Anonymous]

It's just a bunch of guys whining about women...

Yes, it's stupid

No, it's not stupid

Not sure

[WavyWyx]

On one hand, yes, it shares a lot of membership with the MRA movement, which is incredibly stupid. And often it will be, as you said, just "men whining".
On the other hand though, we are in a time in our society where sub-standard men are being told, "You aren't owed a girl," which is a good thing to tell them.
However, we seem to have trouble bridging that gap into, "And you probably never will be loved by one either."
The fact is, is that, like me, there are a lot of invisible men out there, and to paraphrase Louis CK, we're sick of being told, "there's someone for everyone", because that's not true. I am continuously humiliated, gossiped about and "put in my place" whenever I DARE to let a woman know I'm interested in her. Instead of holding out hope, I've decided it's best if I give up. I'm constantly being told I'm creepy and that I frighten women by just being around. So instead of making people feel uncomfortable, I just go to work, work on myself like I always have (I'm a pretty amazing human being, before you try to pull that condescending "you have to work on yourself" card) and ignore women.
You can say it's a "confidence" thing, but how the fuck would you feel if no one had ever given you a compliment, and women and men alike are totally fine with mocking you to your fucking face. Always happily telling you how worthless you are, like it's a joke you're supposed to laugh along with. Belittling you, just because they can and think it's funny.
There are some of us men out there who will be invisible AT BEST no matter what we do or try or say. I don't think it needs a movement, but I do think the message needs to be spread around in society more that probably 25-33% of men just need to give up, and that NO we're not "owed" a girl by life, and women need to "man up" and just tell us straight up that no one will ever love us.
Of course, they won't, by and large, because when a woman gets knocked up by the guy she actually likes and then he leaves for a better woman, she needs us to help her pay for his little fucking brat. So she'll pretend she likes us and cling to us like a fucking leech, have us adopt his shitty, stupid kid and quietly hate herself, wishing the man who impregnated and left her will come back and rescue her from *shudder* us. Oh, and we're expected to be grateful.

[madhatters4]

I think most MGTOW guys are just frustrated about lack of success in the dating world. I do think that there are some who legitimately are MGTOW and believe in the movement but it doesn't mean they are anti-women but just anti the establishment that says men have to pair up.

i'm fine with it as a true movement with an aim that takes steps for equality but i am 100% tired of all the men and women whining about how unfair stuff is but doing absolutely nothing to instigate change... whether they are MGTOW, Feminist, or label themselves as a part of any movement but don't do anything to push for true change

[GraveTruth]

Mgtow is not about equality. You are right though it's about guys lack of success.

All guys that are mgtow want a women to care for. Someone special. The reason they are mgtow is because GOOD WOMEN DO NOT EXIST ANYMORE.
Women base an entire relationship on a guys height. They marry a guy and then turn into a dinosuar.
Modern women have been taught that the only thing they have to offer is their body and sexuality and as a result have NO USE.
I don't want it to be equal. I want them to be gone. They are not going to fix themselves. Women are screwed. Women do NOTHING in the world and when the rare one does they put their gender on a pedistal (SKATEgirl, gamerGIRL, MotocrossGIRL!!!)

I want a robot that can talk, looks like a woman. That will striaghten them damn woman up.

[madhatters4]

@GraveTruth yeah you second paragraph is what takes away from credibility. there are millions if not billions of great women out there. you paint a picture like all men want one thing. this is patently untrue. you paint a picture like all women are one thing. again this is patently untrue.

so this is where MGTOW loses credibility. i am a very happily married man. my wife doesn't care about height. my wife has a hundred "uses" aside from her body... the only thing you can say is what you want in a woman. don't project what you want on to all men. and don't project one notion of what a good woman is on to all women. you will ALWAYS be wrong when you do this

[RJGraveyTrain]

@GraveTruth Lmao. Exactly why no one takes MGTOW dudes seriously. Exhibit A.

[HaveQuestions]

Exactly, about the loss of credibility. If this is the "face" MGTOW presents, it will never lead to positive change. Why? Because you have to be rational, objective, willing to see exceptions, propose workable positive solutions, and take constructive criticism. Same for feminists. Shouting about how much you hate somebody hasn't ever and will never do anything except make you look ridiculously bitter.

Productive solutions would be to address the roots of why the court system is stuck in the 50s. It would look at what the societal breakdown is between good men and good women meeting and thriving.

Both genders are going to have to work together, because shocker, both genders are involved at every single level of it. So, fine. Vent, yell, be pissy. Then put on your big boy and big girl panties, and address the actual issues that cause the harm. The entirety of either gender is not the problem.

[madhatters4]

@HaveQuestions [APPLAUSE]

[RJGraveyTrain]

@HaveQuestions

media.tenor.co/.../raw

[HaveQuestions]

@madhatters4 @rjgraveytrain lol. Thanks. And Wayne's World... bahahahaaa

[madhatters4]

@RJGraveyTrain hahaha

[RJGraveyTrain]

@HaveQuestions Wayne's World <3 classic for life.

[HaveQuestions]

@RJGraveyTrain absolutely!

[GraveTruth]

Says the guy who is taller than his wife and earns more.
Want to test your love there champ. Lose your job and get a career in something you love. Something that pays as little as working in a pet store. Say your happy with it.
WATCH you wife suddenly be more and more difficult to talk to. Watch her start to hate the sound of your voice, walk, then everything about you.
And watch her divorce you bro.
Women cannot LOVE unconditionally. That whole poor or richer talk is crap. Women like men for shallow reasons. I'm not saying they do not fall for guys but the truth is when the CHIPS are DOWN the girl walks

[GraveTruth]

@RJGraveyTrain You're right. The truth is women do feel that their mind is the valueble part of life. They don't just use their sexuality.
SAY, NICE shirt Gravey! Low cut.
I can imagine people taking what you say seriously. You have breasts!!!

[RJGraveyTrain]

@GraveTruth Lmao. Okay so because I have female anatomy, this is somehow indicative to my mental capacity.

You're literally further proving me right that this whole movement is filled with sexual failures who are bitter as fuck and butt hurt to the extreme. Lmao.

[Chico_brah]

@HaveQuestions Very well put. I had to block GraveTruth lol. Kept coming on my threads with death threats and shit. The guy is obsessed with me for some reason. Your earned yourself a new follow though.

[Chico_brah]

@redeyemindtricks Makes more than her husband. She has talked about this time and time again. The way she describes her husband it nothing less of masculine and domineering. She would explain this better though.

[Chico_brah]

@GraveTruth Dude if you came to my university residence hall and said come with you then you'd most likely be arrested because the girls would be so creeped out lmao.

[HaveQuestions]

@Chico_brah thanks. Hmmm, interesting. I've gotten several death threats also, from a blue anon. Something about how I deserve to die and he will enjoy killing me slowly when the day comes, or some shit. It's ridiculous.

[HaveQuestions]

@GraveTruth if you truly believe all this yelling you're doing, then I feel sorry for you. It must be a lonely and scary existence to believe what you do. Your transparent arrogance, as well as name calling, and yelling do nothing to have anyone take you seriously. You lose more and more credibility the more you yell.

See below, what I told Topkek. When you decide to take yourself out of crafting the solution, you forfeit your place to be upset with the result. You hand others the responsibility to work out gender differences, fix the courts, etc then you have no recourse whatsoever to be upset when other so resolve those. You give up your voice at the table, you give up your right to have concerns with the outcome.

[GraveTruth]

@Chico_brah < that guy is a perfect example of something of a Mgtow mascline feminist type. He runs around collecting pictures women show have got naked for cam because of his sexy body or whatever. Yet, the women keep packing on. Another example of ALL women being shallow.

[HaveQuestions]

@GraveTruth women are not worthless, neither are men. Those who act the way you described have values and morals issues, that I can agree with. Where you lose this argument is your hostile overgeneralizations and lack of reason. You shoot yourself in the foot every time you call names, yell about ALL of any group, and to be quite honest, none of us will convince you otherwise because you're completely unwilling to listen. You don't have to. But I am telling you, you will not ever gain anyone's respect or ear, or further your cause with the attitude you have.

[GraveTruth]

@HaveQuestions The only reason you feel sorry for me is because you can see that I'm white and you probably think that's a disadvantage in life or something.

Go talk to any black guy at a college. He has so many chicks surrounding him... yet he can't get one of them to like him past his skin color.

Save your pity for the weak. You can jabber and act like I'm missing out on women but guess what. Because I don't deal with women I'm not to blame because he height isn't good enough. I'm not to blame because I'm too nice or whatever the hell you women want.

You all can run around calling yourselves pansexuals or being fake lesbians for attention. Whatever. I don't miss a thing becuase I don't have to run around trying to EARN your time.
Sorry, I'm one guy who doesn't use women anything and it pisses you off.

[Chico_brah]

@GraveTruth My black friend at university. Name is Cody (Whitest name ever right?). He tried to preach that white privilege shit at me in regards to attraction with women saying that women of university socioeconomic status will never date because he's black. He's a good looking guy and shouldn't of had any trouble finding a chick. I shut him down with that white privilege shit pretty quickly though. He got the hint quickly and respected that. Anyways, he has a girlfriend today but he was lonely as fuck for the longest time. Blacks have their struggles with women as well. Just because you're black, that doesn't mean you have women surrounding you lmao.

[HaveQuestions]

@GraveTruth actually I haven't bothered to look at your profile. I don't care what color you are. My comments are based on your behavior alone. That much hostility comes from equal parts pain. That is why I feel sorry for you. And I do pity you. Solely because I believe your inability to listen to be a weakness. Nothing more.

You don't piss me off, and my responses to you are because I believe you to be wrong. You have every right to not associate with women. And you have the right to know that your expressions about your choice, your approach to discussing them, is what loses you credibility and respect.

Like I said, you are perfectly free to not want to associate with women. You are not free from whatever happens to resolve gender issues, legal issues, etc when you withdraw from reason and proposing rational solutions. Others will do it for you, and you will have to live with the results. That's why I say it's better to be rational and not give up your place at the table.

[GraveTruth]

@HaveQuestions I don't WANT earn womens respect. I don't owe women anything for their attention.
You will never be able to convince me because good women don't exist. The actions of women proving their shallowness is EVERYWHERE.
It shows on every relationship, every moment of infatuation a woman has.
LOOK, this is what happens when women attempt to do something that isn't using their sexuality:
crazyviralmedia.com/.../...re_Ronda_Rousey_2-1.jpg
I Ufc fighter
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...057abd1999.jpg
tennis player... i think

You see. Women are shallow.
Use yourself for an example
got a boyfriend? are you taller than him, do you earn more?

use anything related to male to female interactions.
millions of articles tell guys how they should be, do, how to act, etc.

Sex
-guy getting oral "Yay, fun, feels good."
-girls getting oral "go lower... hm too low, go deep with your tongue... too deep..."

[GraveTruth]

@HaveQuestions My place at the table. The table is a punishment though. Be able to fall in love. that shit doesn't exist. HERE, take a look at how women act towards men. Listen to the difference. Women are Evil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmP1ier3R30

What this filmed in the ghetto? nope, it's one of millions of videos or articles that show men being treated like dirt from nasty shallow women.

You think I'm missing out on that. You think I'm going to be happy with someone like that to deal with.
Obviously I'm lonely and the whole testosterone thing is a problem but who wants to sit at a table and be treated like dirt.

Only guys like that chic-bra guy is fine but he does steroids so his testosterone dumps.

[Chico_brah]

@GraveTruth I actually cycle down to what's considered a TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy) dosage. I'll cycle really high for 12 weeks at a time at supra physiological doses and then I come down and inject enough exogenous testosterone to keep me at the higher average. I like my testosterone at around 1,000 - 1,100 ng/dl which is in the average range. I'll be doing that for the rest of my life. Redeyemindtricks actually does this stuff living and yes TRT completely legal and practiced in modern medicine. A lot of benefits to high testosterone.

So I never actually "come down". My dick is always functional. I never go through emotional issues from "coming down". My levels are all stable as soon as I come down from a supra physiological dose.

[HaveQuestions]

@GraveTruth what could I tell you about my personal life that would change your opinion, exactly? That I do out earn nearly any male I'm with because of my education level and career? That none of them have an issue with it because they are in "manly" professions they love and I support? That I've been with males shorter than me? That I've seen the brutality that happens when people refuse to see others as humans? All are true. And also irrelevant to you, because you refuse to hear any evidence that contradicts you. That, is the problem. Not me.

You don't want respect, you don't owe anyone anything, great. Then off you go. Why be here arguing? Because you do care if people hear you. Unfortunate you're incapable of returning the courtesy. This is why feminism and mgtow are indeed mirror images. Lots of yelling about how right they are and nobody can convince them otherwise, and then shove their heads in the damn sand so they don't have to hear anything to the contrary.

[HaveQuestions]

@GraveTruth those pictures, the videos, the articles etc exist in equal measure the opposite as well. Plenty of videos, pictures, articles exist that sell men, rail on women, and tell women what they need to do, be, look like, etc. Examples of a systemic issue, not a gender one.

No, I don't expect you to be treated like shit and take it. I expect better from both genders. But refusing to even talk to or consider the opposite gender is not a solution to anything at all. It is the equivalent of throw8ng a temper tantrum and then giving the silent treatment in hopes the other person will cave. It's childish, although you certainly have the right to do so.

[Nyx_85]

Oh gosh one of the biggest gripes I have about any group is when people just want to sit there and whine but do nothing. I mean talking and venting a bit is normal. But some of them go overboard. I have literally waded through paragraph after paragraph from men about their problems with women, the government, society, etc and when asked "So what ideas do you have to help this?" they are floored. I've even had a guy say talking to women about mens' issues is pointless because you know us women are sociopaths who don't care about ourselves... in between ranting on and on.

And don't get me started on websites like AVFM or that fake Paul Elam (if you know enough about him you'll know he's a total fake who uses men's issues for profit. Not to mention being a total bully). There is a reason why the MRM is now getting flagged as being a hate group, no matter how noble the original intentions are. Because a bunch of angry dudes get involved and spread hate. Death threats. Rape threats.

[madhatters4]

@GraveTruth you don't know my wife. if you did you know that she doesn't care if she makes more (and in fact you don't know if she does or doesn't), she doesn't care about my height (and again you don't know if i'm taller or shorter than her) ... and since you don't know my wife please don't pretend to.

i do find it funny that you presume to know what precisely what some 3 billion people are like.

[cth96190]

@Nyx_85
Death threats?
Rape threats?
I am unaware of such things.
I am aware of Feminists and sundry other traitors of the left making false claims.
If you look at events, it is Feminists and other leftards who engage in violence, thuggery and intimidation, not MRA and MGTOW.
It is not MRA and MGTOW who forming screaming mobs outside of Feminists conferences; who attempt to intimidate venues into refusing to rent to Feminists; who follow Feminists to their places of work an attempt to coerce companies into firing them; or who assault Feminists as they enter a venue; or pull fire alarms during Feminists meetings.
No, that is what Feminists do to MRA and MGTOW, then, somehow, in the minds of Feminists, these things that they do to MRA and MGTOW become what the men do to Feminists.
By their actions, Feminists have shown themselves to be pure evil, as well as stupid.

[madhatters4]

@cth96190 MRA never make death or rape threats against women? you can't possibly know this to be true. you can't possibly say that MGTOWs or MRA don't show up at feminist rallies and scream at them... i'm sure it has happened and i'm sure it happens. to suggest that it never happens is completely false and naive, but it certainly serves to confirm your bias.

the simple fact is there are crappy feminists, there are crappy MGTOWs, there are crappy MRAs, and on and on. there are also great feminists, MGTOWs, and MRAs. we can't paint any of these groups with broad strokes that apply to all members of that group

[cth96190]

@madhatters4
You appear to have drunk way too much of the left's Kool-Aid.
I am unaware of any violence, or intimidation, directed at anyone by MGTOW and MRA.
I am aware of plenty of Feminists and other lefties who have been shown to be liars, in that they have confected fake events and threats in an attempt to clain victimhood points.
If one searches YouTube, there is an abundance of videos that show violence and intimidarion by Feminists and their fellow travellers.
Feminism is a violent hate movement that, by its very nature, attracts dysfunctional lunatics.

[madhatters4]

@cth96190 so because you are unaware of it, it didn't happen? i'm unaware of any murders in french polynesia in the past month but that doesn't mean it hasn't occurred. unless you read through every single write up on every single feminist meeting, rally, march, protest, etc you simply can't say something has never happened... i haven't drunk the kool-aid i just don't make patently false broad sweeping statements like "X never happened because i've never heard of it happening"

[cth96190]

@madhatters4
If it had happened, the Feminists, other

[cth96190]

@madhatters4
If it had happened, the Feminists, other reds and the Lugenpresse would be screaming it hysterically from the rooftops 24/7 for days, perhaps weeks.
That has not happened.
What has happened was that Feminists and sundry other loons have been exposed as liars, when claimed harassment has been investigated.

[madhatters4]

@cth96190 your use of demeaning insulting names says everything about you. that you can't have a rational conversation because you have a personal vendetta. you can't think rationally because you clearly have a personal issue with feminism. unfortunately it makes any argument you make transparently incredible

[madhatters4]

thanks for MHO

[Nyx_85]

Is feminism stupid? Some people will say yes. Some will say no. Sometimes movements themselves aren't stupid, but they get stupid people in them. No matter how noble the original intentions are people are always going to come in with their own ideals. And the most negative are going to be the ones that get the most attention.

Original MGTOW had NOTHING to do with hating on women or whining about them. It was men trying to live their lives without interference from what they see as being an unfair government, society and a lot of women (and men) they encounter. They could date if they chose to but they would be very selective about whom they dated. It was about them holding themselves up to a certain standard and not getting involved with any women who weren't up to par. Not taking any shit from anybody.

Issue is you get quite a few guys that are angry. Which yeah some of them are rightfully so. They've had a bad run of things. Though some of them are just plain rude and sexist. Like I said negative people get the most attention.

ONE thing I really don't like about MGTOW is that if any guy says he's MGTOW yet has a partner or OMG! even a wife a lot of other guys attack him for it. He could say "Don't worry fellas. She's really chill" and they are like "You are stupid! You are going to get taken to the cleaners! All women do this! AAAHHH!!!" Ok maybe it won't work out. But maybe it will. It's his relationship/marriage and not for anyone else to judge. And isn't going your own way supposed to be about GOING YOUR OWN WAY? But too many MGTOW guys are like "No THIS is the path! Keep your hands and feet inside the vehicle at all time! Do you attempt to feed the wildlife! Do not stray!"

Go your own way... OUR WAY!! lol uh... how about letting people decide for themselves?

[Nyx_85]

And yes the wildlife is women. Cause you know we're wild and crazy!

[Wonderer89]

I can partially understand some of it... but the overwhelming majority (especially here which is really the only exposure I've had to it) seem to be quite bitter based on previous bad experiences and are determined to paint all women with that same brush.
Same with radical feminists, and moving it beyond egalitarianism and into women dominating society - their rants and antics are ruining it for all women who do want to call themselves feminists but don't want to be associated with that bullshit.

Some of the things said by self proclaimed MGTOW enthusiasts just seem over the top and looking for a reaction. It just kind of makes me think if they were a little more focussed on human behaviour and able to read women as well as they THINK they can they wouldn't have been taken "advantage" of by a woman. At some point people need to take responsibility for their actions and their lives and many MGTOW seem to have a story where she ruined their lives and took everything... but why did he let her?
Hmm anyway, some of I get but the rest just seems like guys who were hurt (and could have potentially been prevented or reduced) but that's their business

[TenderFantasy]

Thank you. I couldn't have said it better!

[RJGraveyTrain]

I think all gender segregation groups are fucking dumb. Lol. I think the finger pointing, self-victimization and whining of "groups" in general is a bunch of crap.

Everybody needs a tamp, snickers and a good wank these days I swear.

[Anonymous]

MGTOW isn't a bunch of guys whining about women part of the movement job is to educate young men that what society, and media has told them about women is a lie. It's to aware young men about the dark, cruel side of women and to not be blind sided by their beauty and get taken advantage of. It's basically to aware men that women are just as shitty as men and will take advantage of you if not more so than a man would. This is what many people refer to as whinning but it really is just trying to educate young men about real female behaviour.

The other part of the movement is self improvement and what you can do to improve yourself as a man.

The last key thing to look at is MGTOW does a logical analysis of the dating game in terms of cost/benefits for men and realise that it is a very bad deal for men who are not blessed with top 1% genetics (nice face/tall) or born with type A personality. Thus, for such men it's better to go your own way and not waste your life trying to please women.

[TenderFantasy]

You really have choice in this world you know and yes no body is forcing you to get married if you do not want to. In fact I do not currently reccmmend it for people who are happy being single and just living their lives not hurting anyone. It's when MGTOW ridiculously try to boss other people on what to do with their lives (HATE WOMEN and AVOID them at all costs) is where I have a problem with the movement! How would you like to be painted as a jackass/asshole just because of the genitals you posses? How would you like to be clumped into being a woman beater who drinks a lot just because of the genitals you possess? Ridiculous don't you think? And I don't even really know you and I am already prematurely labeling you as such because of your gender.

[PhilosophicalBull]

I have observed the MGTOW phenomenon for awhile now.
I don't identify as one, but I think they have several legitimate grievances.
People seem to assume that they are just losers who can't get women.
In truth, many are divorcees who have seen the dark side of marriage.
They are bitter, you say?
Having half of your property taken, getting kicked out of your house, and only getting to see your kids every other weekend will do that.

[ThisDudeHere]

This is exactly what I wanted to write.

[TenderFantasy]

Why not just dont get married in the first place?
Why not change the way the American Justice System concerning divorce and family court is handled?

[ThisDudeHere]

@TenderFantasy Most get redpilled after they've been fucked over. And changing the system is what the MRAs try to do, MGTOW is about your inner self.

[JudgmentDay]

I think mgtow is really for those unlucky guys that had really bad and bitter experiences throughout their entire life with women. I still think that if guys just want to quit then just simply quit and give up on women, love, dating, sex, relationships, marriage, etc. altogether but WITHOUT having to place blame on anybody or anything else. No point of just associating themselves with just another crowd because of their experiences. Besides there is very little to no control to what happens to all of us in our lifetime anyway, why not just relax and not exhaust ourselves any further, creating even more frustrations for ourselves and just accept reality for what it is, that it was never fair to begin, can't be fair, and who the fuck ever said it was going to be fair to begin with?

I'm surprised they don't hate on and place enough blame on the players, dickheads and assholes that have money, status with huge egos.

I guess it's just that not all quitters are the same.

[GraveTruth]

Yeah, your wrong dude. It's not for guys who lost at women. There ARE NO WOMEN LEFT.
Every woman on the planet just uses their body and sexuality. They are just objects. It's not possible to have a good relationship. FUCK, every woman in the world bases relationships on the height of dudes.
IT's FUCKED

[HaveQuestions]

@GraveTruth and if you so choose to be that blinded to all the good women, I'm not surprised you can't see any of them. Your bias won't let you.

[JudgmentDay]

@HaveQuestions I think he's mad lol He must have forgotten how to just have some good laughs and stop taking shit so seriously. What do you think @Unit1?

[Unit1]

@JudgmentDay Haha, Totally! Can't have fun with the opposite sex ^^. That leads me to what also @HaveQuestions said, she thinks sooo logical and I like it. Her point is that if this MGTOW chooses to be blind to all women then he will never notice the good women and will live forever in said blindness :)

[HaveQuestions]

@Unit1 yes. Pain can be blinding. It's ultimately a choice whether to remain that way, or come to terms with what you feel is right for you personally while at the same time not being incapable of positively working on the actual core issues. Blindness (if the emotional type) no matter it's cause, is a dead end road.

[Unit1]

@HaveQuestions There are truly amazing women out there, I know it and I saw them myself.

But most of them are taken but they still are amazing women.
If I remember my past times, I remember that I had to deal with awful women and met amazing women. Frankly the first experience for me were awful women when I was going to elementary school with abusive teachers. Then I kind of had a warped view on women (but I wasn't a misogynist by any means) and this warped view didn't allow me to see the OK side or the good side from women. It took me years to come to my normal senses when it comes to women. I had a neutral stance towards women when I entered College (It was so long! My warped view was supported by the gold diggers in high school).

Then I discovered MGTOW only to develop from the warped view on women to slight misogyny (since all they talk about are women, women and guess what? WOMEN. Women are evil!).

[Unit1]

@HaveQuestions Until suddenly I had a flash of the strongest and most biased misogyny on MGTOW (it was the NEVER TRUST WOMEN picture), which made me question myself "Am I such a misogynist? No I am not. I am no longer any part of this!" and dropped it all in just the same day, that I saw this picture.

I then didn't understand where I stand myself (metaphorically speaking, I did not know where I am) but what was clear to me was to get on the right tracks with women (like following a lighted path) and not reminding about the bad things, that some women did to me in the past. Then I kept remembering what women did to me. I realized, that women did a lot for me! Then I realized, that women are my friends! Here I am today adoring women!

[JudgmentDay]

@Unit1 If things just don't work out, just stay single indefinitely, it's really that simply. If one feels very discomfortable about it then just consider getting a pet or something like that.

[trentlee1244]

What is so stupid about us men that perfer to be single and have no desire to be in a relationship or have kids. We live the way we want to and not how somebody else wants us to live so everyone should respect that and not tell us how to live our lives.

I am sure there are plenty of women who don't want relationships or kids either like this one women I know at my work, no one is forcing her to do this and she has said multiple times she does not want kids or a relationship with anyone and everyone at work respects that.

[Eugene]

By listening to some of their monologues, they actually make some quite legit points that are hard (if possible at all) to counter, as long as you're relying on logic, not emotions.

Are they stupid? Most definitely not.
I'd describe them as being "pragmatism being taken up to eleven".

[DaveDavidson]

If it's a guy actually just living the way he wants to live, then I'd say no.
It becomes stupid when it's guys who are just bitter about their lack of success with women who latch onto the idea and act like they're defeating women and feminism.
I don't know if they realize that women who had no interest in them aren't going to care.

[FakeName123]

It's reactionary to the development of what women has become - mostly thanks to feminism and such moevments.

Is it the wrong approach to deal with things? Yes. Is it understandable that it happens? Also yes.

So just saying "it is stupid" is too simple when there is some deeper lying issues being shown. Just look at the equivalent of Japan's herbivores movement that is around the block a few years longer.

[NukeCanada]

Herbivores? Do you mean Otaku?

[FakeName123]

@NukeCanada

Not Otakus. Herbivores.

www.slate.com/.../the_herbivores_dilemma.2.html

eruditeknight.wordpress.com/.../

[AleDeEurope]

Yes. They're the male equivalent of feminism. Just whiny idiots who can't get laid.

[Turkish_Delight]

+1 they are the male version of the feminists

[sedrftvgyhujik]

There looking for support from other guys because they got hurt often through divorce which is a nasty business.
While i've never been personally MGTOW and im sure like feminism it takes different forms there aren't many support groups just for men.
I can see a place for it to help guys out.

[TenderFantasy]

Support by being hateful and bullying? Hmm, though I do agree with what you are saying..

[zagor]

How do you define MGTOW? If you mean those who define themselves that way and constantly whine about women on the internet, then yes.

If you mean guys who are just tired of the whole dating/relationship BS and prefer to go without for a while instead of dealing with it, then no.

[Arne123123]

People here seem to have a lot of different defenitions on mgtow. I consider myself mgtow, but i don't hate women. On the contrary, i love women and would love to find someone i could have av happy relationship with. Mgtow to me just means being aware that a lot of women will just use you if you let them. To not spend my life trying to impress and make everyone else happy, but do what I want to do without worrying what random women think of it.

[VeritechAce]

There are as many definitions of MGTOW as there are MGTOWs.

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

MGTOW is illustrative of what's wrong with men these days. Do women hurt your feewings? Whine and cower. That'll show 'em.

[cth96190]

No, not 'whine and cower', deny women our resources.
Deny them everything.
Feminist thinking:
Kill all men. - Valerie Solanas
All sex is rape. - Andrea Dworkin
A woman needs a man in the way that a fish needs a bicycle. - Gloria Steinem.
Okay, fuck off and do it for yourselves. Women do not need the provision and protection provided by men, as well as our sperm.
MGTOW will go our own way and benefit from not sharing our resources with females.
If we were such neckbeard losers who had nothing to offer, women would not care.
The amount of pissing and bitching by women indicates otherwise.

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

@cth96190 Still whining, dude.

[NerdInDenial]

That's not exactly accurate. Most MGTOW just don't want to play the dating game, and they really don't revolve their life around women. Are there MGTOW who intentionally "whine" about women? Of course, but most don't really care about women.

[GraveTruth]

It's not called whining asshole. Are you are "whiner" because you don't like murder? Are women whiners for complaining about rape?

[NerdInDenial]

@GraveTruth; I'm not saying that all MGTOW whine, but there are some who become overly obsessed with destroying women.

[Unit1]

Men "going their own way"
keywords: "going", "their own way"

Whine about women nonstop and blame women for their problems instead of truly going their own way.

Not so much going their own way anymore.

@JudgmentDay just letting you know.

[Unit1]

It's worth noting, that MGTOW exists partially because of feminism (a response to feminism) and partially it started out with good intentions.
But feminazis are whining about men, so we have those both labels for people, who hate the opposite sex.

[GraveTruth]

NO MGTOW exists because men wanted to be in real relationships with women but found out that it's not possible because women are all shallow and awful. They divorce guys because they lost jobs, they date guys because they are black or tall. They are shallow as hell when it comes to themselves. They have NO skills anymore.

[Unit1]

@GraveTruth Thank you for proving my point.

[Unit1]

@HaveQuestions This is most likely interesting for you :) Have a read, friend :>

[HaveQuestions]

Lol, I see. Hmmm, yes. Interesting is one way to put it. No skills? Not true, exceedingly false, as well as misleading. All shallow and awful? Some are, for sure. Just like some men are. Boobs not big enough? Gtfo. Sound familiar? Mgtow is the mirror image of feminism as it is today. Extremist views, generalizations, and a shitload of bitterness. Shitty attitude is not attractive, by anyone, or to anyone. Yes, the court system has fucked over many men. That's a remnant from the 50s when it actually worked and men happened to be happy with it. It is not appropriate today, but the status quo is the most inherently difficult thing in the world to change. It is embedded everywhere, so changing it is multidimensional. The vast majority of men who have gone Mgtow do harbor extreme cynical and bitter "victimhood" mentalities. If they actually don't want anything to do with women, then by all means, off you go and do your thing without attacking. Same for women.

[Unit1]

@HaveQuestions Yah!
You see men like him do not deserve good women :)
It all leads me back to the points you made in our past discussions. Strong opinions, loud voices, extreme behavior and things alike to be heard by the loudest and bitter members of a group without actually debating it in a civil manner leads to nowhere.

[front2back]

I wish all MGTOW and Feminists would have a battle to the death and physically remove themselves from society.

[oddwaffle]

These guys are fools who just realized they were fools.

Here is the bit of wisdom from the old "Do not trust anyone. Especially beautiful women. The more beautiful they are, the easier it is for them to harm you."

[NukeCanada]

I understand that guys are wary of commitment and to a degree it's justified. What most guys don't get is that girls are in the same situation. Just say she partners up with a guy, has a kid with him and then he up and leaves. She's left looking after the kid, plus she's undateable because single guys won't date a mother.

[art84]

I know this is going to hurt some men out there. But you have to realize in life you can't always going to get what you want no matter what. You have to basically deal with the hand that you are dealt in life.

[MakingMeHiiiigh]

I think it's irrational and pointless... Any gender segregation movement is pointless.

[vonasaurus]

like feminism, it started out as well-intentioned; now, like modern-day :feminism", mgtow is internet cancer that needs to die.

[Phoenix98]

Just like feminism is a bunch of women bitching and moaning about men.

They are both idiotic and toxic groups that draw in those exact kinds of people like moths to a flame.

[Anonymous]

Like most things that are stupid (e. g., feminism, Trumpian populism, PC police, social justice warriors, ethnic nationalists), MGTOW does have some legitimate points that are well worth considering and addressing, along with a whole host of whining and hand-wringing and outrage that's just a reflection of the failure of the people involved.

[DanReynolds]

Its just as stupid as feminist groups... They have some good points and cause but most of it is blown out of proportion and made up of bitter people in general. People who stand for equality who aren't extremists are perfectly fine tho

[BellePepper]

Honestly if those boys would just get the therapy they need they'd be so much better off.

[grotesquecurry]

they shouldn't be spending money on therapy, more like on plastic surgeries and stuff. Their looks is the main reason they have been fucked.

[BellePepper]

@grotesquecurry So what you're saying is that you need therapy too.

[grotesquecurry]

i survived the looks holocaust, I know its the root cause of all problems.

[BellePepper]

@grotesquecurry Which is why you're so insecure about how you look and/or your personality that you think how you look is the only thing you bring to the relationship?

[grotesquecurry]

I don't give a fuck about relationships because I know they are not worth it in this EXTREMELY superficial world.

[BellePepper]

@grotesquecurry So you're afraid to get into relationships too.

[grotesquecurry]

I am ugly genetic trash, I don't deserve relationships. Only the genetic elite should be allowed to have them so that good genes spread in the world.

[BellePepper]

@grotesquecurry So now we circle back to you needing therapy.

[grotesquecurry]

or i get surgeries so i can get laid and validation once in a while :)

[BellePepper]

@grotesquecurry Honey it doesn't matter what change about your outside if you don't fix your inside you'll always be unhappy.

[grotesquecurry]

no one is truly happy anyway

[grotesquecurry]

do you think girls would want to date me?

[BellePepper]

@grotesquecurry Have you ever talked to a doctor about your depression?

[grotesquecurry]

how the fuck exactly would a doctor help?

[BellePepper]

@grotesquecurry depression is a medical condition...

[grotesquecurry]

how can u all be so bluepilled and delusional tbh.

[BellePepper]

@grotesquecurry Have you asked your doctor?

[grotesquecurry]

my doctor was a FEMALE and she had sex with my hot brother while feeding me bullshit

[BellePepper]

@grotesquecurry make sure you tell them you have a problem with lying too.

[grotesquecurry]

i wish i was lying.

[BellePepper]

@grotesquecurry Sure you are.

[trentlee1244]

I don't need therapy if I no desire to be in a relationship or have kids ever, I just live how I want to and not how somebody else wants me to. Respect that not everyone wants a relationship, there is also one women at my work who is the same has no desire to be in a relationship ever and everyone respects that.

[grotesquecurry]

for me its more of a forced thing though.

[BellePepper]

@trentlee1244 Do you actively identify as MGTOW or are you just doing your own thing?

[trentlee1244]

I don't actively go around saying I'm MGTOW and I do my own thing but that is what MGTOW is really about is men wanting to do their own thing away from the norms and expectations of society (like not wanting relationships or kids when society expects you to)

[BellePepper]

@trentlee1244 Oh so then you understand there's a difference between YOU a guy doing his own thing and MGTOW boys who need to hate women and refuse to help themselves to do their own thing. Right?

[trentlee1244]

True MGTOW is doing your own thing, guys that use MGTOW as an excuse to be sexist to women are not true MGTOW as is the same thing with women that use feminism as an excise to be sexist to men are not true feminists.

[BellePepper]

@trentlee1244 Honey we both know it's not. Like I've legit tried to give them chances to tell me how different they are and guess what? It's all about being afraid of women or relationships and instead of dealing with those issues they blame women for them. And I've been talking to them for yeaaaaars at this point.

I have legit never seen a woman be like "omg let's burn all men #feminism" in a serious way. Like ever. And I'm on tumblr.

[trentlee1244]

I have had so called feminists be sexist to me and other guys multiple times and those guys afraid of women and blaming women are conveniently calling themselves MGTOW and they are not true MGTOW.

[BellePepper]

@trentlee1244 Were they being sexist to you by telling you to do something that would only benefit you? Were they being sexist by pointing out how something was unfair between you and them? Were they being sexist by asserting their bodily rights eg. cutting their hair how they want instead of how you want? Were they being sexist by existing?

Because those are all reasons I've been told I'm not only sexist, I'm apparently a misandrist for these reasons as well.

I don't want kids and I'm meh on marriage but I'm not like OMG LOOK AT ME #WGTOW I just do what I want without putting other people down. Why can't MGTOW boys do the same?

[trentlee1244]

No they were making sexist, derogatory and hateful comments about men just because they hate men and that is not acceptable, I don't go around making derogatory comments about women. And as I said true MGTOW do what we want without putting other people down because we respect other peoples choices as they should respect ours.

[BellePepper]

@trentlee1244 Uh huuuh... Like I said. I'm pretty dubious here based on my own experiences.

Which is why your friends are so into hating women? And like I'm kind of starting to see the disliking women thing in you too. Maybe I'm wrong but ehhhhh...

[trentlee1244]

I am not friends with sexist people that hate the opposite gender nor do I associate with people that breed hate, respect my choice and don't question it

[BellePepper]

@trentlee1244 There's that woman hating again...

[trentlee1244]

There is no hate for women, all I am asking you to respect my choice to do my own thing and don't hate on me for it.

[grotesquecurry]

shit, why did i comment here (

[BellePepper]

@trentlee1244 You're not asking me to do that. You're telling me I WILL do that. That's rude. If you really are fair between people it will show and you won't have to order me to do anything.

[trentlee1244]

@grotesquecurry Mute it bro

[BellePepper]

@grotesquecurry Maybe this can be a catalyst in your life that encourages you to get help

[trentlee1244]

Basic common courtesy respect others and their choices/opinions without hating on them, while you may have your opinion and you can state what it is but don't force it on people that have a different opinion.

[BellePepper]

@trentlee1244 I'm not being rude to you at all but here you are being rude to me. Again...

[trentlee1244]

In my opinion you are been rude to me so lets just agree to end it at this

[BellePepper]

@trentlee1244 How am I being rude?

[trentlee1244]

Forget it I am done with you

[BellePepper]

@trentlee1244 Okay thanks for clarifying how you're totally different XD

[trentlee1244]

I am now beginning to understand why those people think you are a misandrist

[BellePepper]

@trentlee1244 Im a misandrist for listening to your story and saying thank you?

[trentlee1244]

I am going to be honest here, the comments you make give the impression you really don't like men and in some cases actually come across offensive towards men

[BellePepper]

@trentlee1244 I don't have a problem with men for being men. I have problems with rude men. I have problems with men who lie to me. I have problems with men who don't take responsibility for their choices and/or actions. I don't have problems with men just because they're men though.

[trentlee1244]

That is good to hear then and I hope that logic is gender neutral and you have problems with men and women that are rude, men and women that lie etc.

[BellePepper]

@trentlee1244 of course. I'm on my phone though and very lazy XD

[trentlee1244]

Also just a constructive suggestion (your choice if you follow this or not) be a bit more careful with your comments so you don't come across negative towards men because some of the comments honestly gave that impression. We are all living in this world together and there is too much hate which we need to stop, people like Trump are the problem spreading hate.

[BellePepper]

@trentlee1244 Honestly anything that isn't me saying men are perfect and I worship the air they share with me is considered negative so...

[LittleSally]

Nah... Everyone can do what they want and as long as it doesn't negatively affect anyone else - it's not stupid. It's their choice and I respect that.

[lord_chilled]

Not necessarily. But it is a defeatist movement.
However i thonk a lot of the members have been trough some horrible things, which has made them lose all hope.
Still i its not like they are an aggressive or violent grouo, so no problems with me

[HaveQuestions]

I agree with the first half. That much hostility comes from equal parts pain.

As for the second part, I realize the stupidity of it being said online from behind a keyboard somewhere in the world, but I've been told to kill myself, that I should have the evil (being female) beaten out of me, and one anon was kind enough to offer that he will enjoy killing me slowly when the day comes. Delusional. And they do that in response to me challenging them no more than I ever have you. Unfortunately, they are the ones who overshadow the true problems facing men, and lose all credibility to anyone who actually wants to work on the issues.

[lord_chilled]

@HaveQuestions
Wow. I didn't know they went around bashing women like that. I tought they were satisfied in "going their own way". Well i guess participants dont always do what they are meant to. I can see why they got a bad rep now.

[HaveQuestions]

If they were content in "going their own way," I'd take no issue with that. Unfortunately no, they don't always do as intended. And that's why "movements" lose all credibility when some who claim their name go sideways and do stuff under their name that is "louder" than the members who follow the original intent.

Think of a peaceful protest- all it takes is one member to lose their shit and resort to violence (even if provoked) and the entirety of the group loses credibility.

[lord_chilled]

@HaveQuestions yup.
And these kinda groups have no shortage of nutcases that have been attracted to them.

[cth96190]

It is clear to me that you do not understand MGTOW.

[behappybabe]

It sounds like the male equivalent of modern feminism... so no I don't mind. If one side complains, the other side should be able to complain too

[Anonymous]

If Mgtow really was just a bunch of neckbeards whining about women, no one would ever bother debating it so much...

[Kirah]

Not really. Most MGTOW's are men who have been burned by unfair and sexist laws. They don't really affect you, so why are you so bothered by them?

[Rissyanne]

You could say the same thing about feminist. Women whining about men.

[dolemite68]

i don't think their beliefs are dumb, i don't want to get married or have kids but i still want a girlfriend. I just think having a group for it and they way they go about things is dumb.

[vishna]

I don't understand exactly what's going on, what's the goal... so, I dunno.

[samhradh_leannan]

It's not necessarily stupid, but it may be hurting society in a way similar to how feminism is.

[Topkek]

No. The only rational thing for a guy to do is to go MGTOW, because women and society have become very hostile towards men.

[HaveQuestions]

Rational. No. "Rational decision making favors objective data and a formal process of analysis over subjectivity and intuition." I have talked with you before, and yiu tend to always return to subjectivity (you and other mgtows rely on their personal experiences) and intuition (men get fucked by a broken system, therefore we should unite against women. Even though plenty of women are not the system that is broken). Resorting to hostility because you faced hostility does not make a rational solution. It makes double hostility.

Have you read the study I linked for you in a previous thread? If not, and if you can't be bothered to look at objective data and account for it in your opinion making process, then refrain from calling it rational.

[Topkek]

How am i resorting to hostility? I don't care what women or what someone else thinks about my decision to go MGTOW.

"The only winning move is to not play"

[HaveQuestions]

Fair enough. My comment was toward your own attitudes in previous threads regarding Mgtow, as well as the attitudes of many of its members.

You certainly do have a right to "not play." What doesn't make rational sense, however, is the yelling, bitterness, and hate espoused by both feminists and Mgtow.

I said it before, I'll say it again: "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

[Topkek]

@HaveQuestions

I'm not theorizing anything, i've seen tons of men in real life get their lives shattered by divorces and false accusations, like rape or assault.

"A smart man learns from his own mistake"
"A smarter man learn from other's mistakes"

[HaveQuestions]

As have I. And that is theorizing. You're using observations to justify actions, and choosing to refrain from interacting with women based on a cluster of personal observations is not rationality. That's subjectivity. And it is a perfectly acceptable choice, as long as it remains yours, others are neither pressured to agree or disagree, and outgroups are not demonized. A rational decision would include consideration of objective data, as well as incorporate proposal of positive solutions. Nothing will ever be solved by a "hands off" approach either. It is your option, and your choice. It is not a solution to the bitterness between genders.

[Topkek]

Like i said, women and society have become hostile towards men, and i'm not going to be a part of it.
The only smart thing is to not get married, or if you want to be on the safe side, not have any kind of relationship with other women, whether it's sexual or long/short-term.

I'm not going to "try my luck" and risk getting fucked over hard.

[HaveQuestions]

Some women have, and have always been. Some are louder about it now. Some men have always been as well, and some are louder about it now. Doesn't mean they are making progress by simply being loud.

You don't have to be a part of it. I can respect your choice. Refusal to participate in relationship with the opposite gender does not have to mean uncoupling of the responsibiloty of both genders to work on solutions, however. Your choice to not participate, I can respect. It is the yelling, criticizing, and general bitterness of both sides that I cannot.

Either be rational, work on solutions, or refrain from shouting about your "injustices." In essence, either be a part of the solution, or do not complain about the results. Hands off is a respectable choice. But hands off does not get to claim any unhappiness with outcome, since they chose nor to participate in whatever solution comes or does not come.

[Topkek]

Here's another statement that some other guy made, which is very true indeed:

"The men’s rights activists don’t like us because, while we agree with them on some things, we won’t be their cannon fodder in a war we know they can’t win. Pickup artists hate us because they can’t make money off us. Feminists hate us because we won’t fight them. And women hate us because we won’t give them what they want.”

[Topkek]

Go watch a documentary called "The Red Pill". It was released last week and it was created by a former feminist.

[HaveQuestions]

It sounds very defeatist, to be honest, and still so much hate present. I can appreciate that some men have been so fucked over that they have opted to withdraw.

Like I said, though, if you withdraw from a problem then others will be responsible for picking it up and working out a solution. Therefore, if you withdraw, you forfeit any recourse you had to complain about whatever result comes.

Refusal to participate in a problem on a personal level is not the same as refusal to participate in a solution on a societal level. You can do both, and retain your right to question the outcome.

[HaveQuestions]

I've watched, read, and explored a lot of information about the "red pill" ideology and mgtow. I'd still like to see you read the study I gave you as well. Rationality considers information from both sides, not just the favored one.

[Topkek]

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3686998/

Watch it first, and comment later.

[HaveQuestions]

I've already watched. Have you read the study yet? Practice what you preach, my friend. I'm happy to continue this conversation when you have as well. I do have to go for now, and thank you for the discourse. I hope you have a good rest of your day.

[Topkek]

No, you haven't watched shit. You won't be talking the same way you do now after watching it, believe me.

[HaveQuestions]

I have. Whether you believe me or not. And what I say comes from a critical evaluation of the info from all sides, including those not associated with either feminists or mgtow.

Ironic, because those same words could be leveled at you, since you're avoiding reading the info I gave you.

I do hope you have a good rest of your day. Maybe we can continue this later.

[cth96190]

@HaveQuestions
The only way to solve the problem is to avoid interaction with women as much as possible and to refuse to have any form of romantic/intimate interaction.
By denying women our resources and denying them husbands and children, women will eventually become so unhappy that they will relegate Feminism to the sewer of history and demand changes to the things that alienated the affections of men. These things include, but are not limited to: divorce law, rape/consent law, discrimination in employment and education.
I have not touched a woman for about 15.5 years, despite plenty of approaches and outright indecent proposals, because I do not want to lose my house, or my investments, or be enslaved by a child-support order, or be the target of a false rape or sexual-harassment allegation.
As recently as last Saturday night I had to deal with a female who screamed sexual harassment, after I refused her advances while I was working in security.

[Topkek]

@cth96190

That's what i've been trying to tell her before, but she doesn't seem to understand.

The ONLY way for a man to protect himself is to avoid interaction with women, except when it's work-related, and refuse to have any kind of relationship with women.

It's a very dangerous world out there for men, and it's not looking good.

[HaveQuestions]

@Topkek @cth96190 can you really not see how what you said is IDENTICAL to what feminists says, just opposite gender? It's a dangerous world for men/women, we should avoid the other sex to make them pay, if we refuse interaction they'll come to their senses, etc ad nauseum.

Avoidance of an issue is not a solution to an issue. Sorry. You have every right to avoid. Understanding it means you forfeit your right to have any say in the outcome of the issues, since you refuse to participate in the solution. When you avoid it, you give it to others to resolve.

Divorce law, rape law, if also like to see changes. And I would like to throw a thesaurus at anyone who uses the term "rapey" as a descriptor. Avoiding problems and systemic issues has never once in history solved anything. You are opting to leave the issues for others to solve, and they will.

[Topkek]

@HaveQuestions

You really have NO CLUE how it is being a man in the modern world. Being a "real man" is to ignore what women and society tells you to do or how to behave.

Why is it that only women downvote every time some guy mentions MGTOW?
Because women KNOW that we have found out their tactics to control men, and we refuse to be part of it. This is why they hate us.

[HaveQuestions]

Intuitively plausible, but is in fact a bullshit argument. It is a bullshit argument when it becomes about the qualifications of the person being responded to, rather than about the original topic. I know, I know I'm a woman. However, your subjective premise that that alone means I'm incapable of understanding issues facing men would need much more empirical support for it to be anything more than subjective and emotional.

It's fair to say I won't know exactly what it's like to be male. It's also fair to say you won't know exactly what it's like to be female. The problem there is, it is in fact very possible that both can UNDERSTAND the other without having to be the other. That's where you lost your argument for rationality. Using objective, balanced, and broad range of information can in fact, lead to understanding.

Nobody hates you, not me anyway. And tactics to control? Come on. Put your feet back on the ground. That will get you nowhere.

[Topkek]

@HaveQuestions

It's a bullshit argument for you, because you're a WOMAN. You have no idea how women behave with men, because you have never dated a woman.

I'm sure you're smart enough to understand that the sole reason as to why women hate MGTOW, is because we refuse to become controlled by other women. This IS the fact. You don't have to agree, simply because you're a woman.

[HaveQuestions]

No. It is bullshit no matter what gender says it. And I'm quite sure you'd recognize it as such if a feminist walked up to you and yelled "you don't get what it's like because you're a MAN! You have no idea how men treat women, because you haven't dated a man!"

It's bullshit, because it is the equivalent of a teenager screaming at a parent that they "just don't get them!" Without a rational attempt to gain objective understanding, all you're left with no matter your gender, is reactive, emotional, bullshit. Either use balanced objective argument, or don't call it rational.

[HaveQuestions]

Actually, I'm smart enough to know that is your own personal reason for refusing women. Cool. But own it as yours. Don't try to bandwagon.

My biggest disappointment with mgtow overall is their refusal to calmly and rationally discuss their viewpoints. And they bring either no evidence, or refuse to even look at counter and just as valid evidence. Mgtow might be able to contribute something very worthwhile to the systemic issues, since they seem to be the victims who have been most hurt by said issues. But not with one sided, irrational, subjective yelling and screaming. I'm sorry their voice can't be included, because I actually think it could be of use.

[Topkek]

@HaveQuestions

Men pamper and spoil women on dates. Don't come here and say that it's not true. You very well know it is true.

I don't go on marches or protests like feminists do. I don't really care what other people do or say. I only care about myself, first and foremost.

You have a hard time understanding how MGTOWs think, because men's and women's brains are wired differently. We're not equal we will never be equal.

[Topkek]

@HaveQuestions

I make my decisions based on rational and logical thinking. MGTOW is all about protecting your own sovereignty and striving to improve yourself. You still don't seem to get that, and you probably never will understand, because you're a woman.

[HaveQuestions]

There you go again with your false dichotomies. All men are not angels and all women are not devils. That's ridiculously shallow, and just plain wrong across the entire damn board.

Good for you, I don't go to marches either. Guess what? That's irrelevant. The premises of both groups are wrong, no matter who marches or who just yells on websites.

We're not equal... well, duh. That's also irrelevant. More people could understand mgtow if they actually rationally spoke their points, how they have been harmed, what systemic issue is most impactful, and how they see it needing to change. And use evidence. Not subjectivity. Most everyone can see gender issues, legal issues, and how they are broken. Nothing changes until people can talk, think, and work together however. So, the system will remain broken, until others fix it for mgtow. And that's the shame. That they refuse to contribute rationally to any forward motion.

[HaveQuestions]

Lmao... because I'm a woman. Argh. That single statement is what undermines any and all attempt you make to call yourself rational or logical. That is pure subjective emotion.

I believe in sovereignty of mind as well. I believe in logic, rationality, and self improvement. Those aren't relegated to one gender or the other.

What you seem to keep failing to see is, both genders live in a larger world, with systemic issues that affect both and are broken, and no amount of false dividing lines is going to change that. You will not "change women" by refusing to engage with them. You'll simply be alone. There is no grand outcome from your withdrawal. The rest of the world will go on working on the issues between the genders, and since you still live in the world that will decide them, you will be imoacted by them. Why would you not want to put aside subjective emotion for an opportunity to help shape what you will ultimately live by?

[Topkek]

@HaveQuestions

You can't fix the fucking system until women CHANGE themselves. It is a danger to even approach or talk to other women nowadays, which is why so many men don't bother with it anymore. You won't understand that because you're a woman.

I'm not going to risk my reputation or my personal life, and call out the injustice because men get branded as misogynists, rapists and whatnot all the time. You have to be nuts to even consider that.
You won't ever understand it because you're a woman. Don't try to come here and shame all guys going MGTOW, thinking you're superior. It makes you look pathetic.

[HaveQuestions]

And now, it seems we've come full circle and gone as far as you are willing. While I appreciate the discussion, if you are opting to revert to the name calling and the "you're a woman!" arguments then I'm afraid you've shut down the conversation.

People are the way they are because of the system, not the other way around. We adapt to what environment we live in.

I'm not shaming you. I haven't called you any names, yelled anything rude. I'm challenging you to grow a little bit, hear something that doesn't agree with you, but is no less valid. There's a difference. I'm sorry you don't want to see it.

Again, I've enjoyed talking to you. I hope you have a good rest of your day, Topkek.

[Topkek]

Everything I described is reality for so many men worldwide, and you're telling me that our decisions aren't based on rational and logical thinking?

Yes, you are so much smarter than everyone else, and all MGTOWS are wrong.

[HaveQuestions]

I'm aware that many men who have experienced the broken system and been screwed over. And that, is the definition of subjective. Personal experience. Compilation of it doesn't change that. Until you add in objective measures of it, research, and account for the opposing experiences with objectivity and research also.

I have not ever said I'm smarter, that's silly. And no, I've never said you are wrong about what you've experienced. That would be silly I've said the way you present it is. And I think you all coupd do better, and people would hear you and could benefit from hearing your experiences. But that it would take a less hostile, more equally willing to listen rather than just yell, approach. I think all men and women should be capable of that, which is part of why I don't think you're wrong. I think you could do better. That's it.

I do have to go, but am happy as always, to talk again if you'd like.

Thanks, Topkek

[Topkek]

@HaveQuestions So it's not objectivity that women initiate 70% of all divorces, men end up losing everything they own and have to pay child support etc? How about that men get much harsher punishments for the same crime that a man and woman commits, that's all "personal" experience huh? This is only a few of all the issues that I brought up.

"I think you could do better"

You've exposed yourself for what you truly believe in. Adding a bunch of fancy words to try to mask it won't help. Sorry.

[Topkek]

You have no problem calling everything I just brought up "personal experience" or subjectivity, because you know that all of the issues that affect men will never affect you, or any other woman for that matter. That's why you don't care.

[TenderFantasy]

Child support should be paid regardless of who has custody. It's just responsible parenting! And being a responsible adult!

[TaylorSpliff]

There are more labels and movements than people with common sense these days.

[Nuala]

There are some things I think are unfair for men in the legal system, but a bunch of pussys getting their panties in a knot doesn't help nothing.

[SuccessfulHornDog]

Seems to be a reaction to feminism, which really is stupid

[AtomicCheesing]

https://youtu.be/mosTDMO3hJc

[LesbianBusinessWoman]

Yes, I think MGTOW is stupid. Bunch of whiners if you ask me

[ISaythereaint]

whoever made that website is a much better web designer than the people making the feminist websites : ...

[sedrftvgyhujik]

I imagine female web designers are use to working with men and friends with largly men through work and if they're good at there job there likely to get told so by the guys so less likely to be hard core feminist.
Just a wild theory because i like to speculate
also there are more successful guys losing out in divorces who get drawn to mgtow for support

[ISaythereaint]

@sedrftvgyhujik It seems like an interesting concept.

[Anonymous]

Is it stupid?

I don't know, go ask a guy who has been divorce-raped, lost half of his assets (if not all), lost his business, got his reputation wrecked and lost custody of his own children.

[TenderFantasy]

If it's divorce court, he isn't going to be perpetually forced to give his wife alimony and child support? Come on, that money is for his own child that He chose to willingly bring forth in this world! Have sex like an adult and be responsible for the outcome for crying out loud!

[NaughtySarah]

It's bunch of whining bitter men who can't get laid

[Anonymous]

I am not sure. some of the points are valid. some are not. more like feminism.

[GraveTruth]

Here's a point for you.
-All mgtow want to have a good woman but they are extinct. All women have to offer is their body and sexuality to "Catch" whatever they want (career, marriage, etc). Modern women are taught they don't have to do anything and as a result women cannot do ANYTHING. When the rare woman do learn something such as being a mechanic or playing video games, she spends more time gender label promoting herself than the simple hobby that pretty much all guys can do.

[Opinion Owner]

yeah I know these things. but sometimes it's hard to believe that the whole gender is just like that.

[TenderFantasy]

I don't think it's ever valid to generalize and paint ALL women or ALL men as bad people!

[Pomegranate139]

It started out reasonably, then got out of hand

[Dred1614returns]

They're the male equivalent of feminism.

[HaveQuestions]

^ this

[grotesquecurry]

its more like MSTOW-men sent their own way.

[Imhotep99]

The male counterpart of feminism.

[AynonOMouse]

When feminism goes away, then so will MGTOW.

[AynonOMouse]

MGTOW is caused by BS like this post:
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../q2328523-should-i-dump-a-guy-who-wants-to-split-the-bill-the-next-time-we-go

[GraveTruth]

No it won't because feminism exists because women want to be able to do absolutely nothing and never get any blame.

MTGOW is the complaint that women have become obsolete apart for sexuality.

[OfDeath]

No different from feminism. So yes. Stupid.

[Ghost141414]

No, they are very intelligent

[Words_and_Wisdom]

No more stupid than feminism.

[Nightinggale]

No, its necessary and good.

[Anonymous]

No, I think women are stewpid.

[NukeCanada]

As comments demonstrating the superiority of the male intellect go, this isn't one.

[COCOCHANEL]

it's fine

[jakeofalltrades]

yes, but so is feminism

[mandyoi]

What does that even mean? 😕

[yourmom89]

men go their own way. basically, it's men who hate women. they think they're useless and only cause pain

[Anonymous]

I don't just think that. I'm sure about it.

[Anonymous]

it's not any less stupid then feminism.

[Anonymous]

can you tell me what's that please? i beg you!