Just like feminism is a bunch of women bitching and moaning about men.
They are both idiotic and toxic groups that draw in those exact kinds of people like moths to a flame.
3
0 Reply
Anonymous
(36-45)
+1 y
Like most things that are stupid (e. g., feminism, Trumpian populism, PC police, social justice warriors, ethnic nationalists), MGTOW does have some legitimate points that are well worth considering and addressing, along with a whole host of whining and hand-wringing and outrage that's just a reflection of the failure of the people involved.
Its just as stupid as feminist groups... They have some good points and cause but most of it is blown out of proportion and made up of bitter people in general. People who stand for equality who aren't extremists are perfectly fine tho
@grotesquecurry Which is why you're so insecure about how you look and/or your personality that you think how you look is the only thing you bring to the relationship?
I don't need therapy if I no desire to be in a relationship or have kids ever, I just live how I want to and not how somebody else wants me to. Respect that not everyone wants a relationship, there is also one women at my work who is the same has no desire to be in a relationship ever and everyone respects that.
I don't actively go around saying I'm MGTOW and I do my own thing but that is what MGTOW is really about is men wanting to do their own thing away from the norms and expectations of society (like not wanting relationships or kids when society expects you to)
@trentlee1244 Oh so then you understand there's a difference between YOU a guy doing his own thing and MGTOW boys who need to hate women and refuse to help themselves to do their own thing. Right?
True MGTOW is doing your own thing, guys that use MGTOW as an excuse to be sexist to women are not true MGTOW as is the same thing with women that use feminism as an excise to be sexist to men are not true feminists.
@trentlee1244 Honey we both know it's not. Like I've legit tried to give them chances to tell me how different they are and guess what? It's all about being afraid of women or relationships and instead of dealing with those issues they blame women for them. And I've been talking to them for yeaaaaars at this point.
I have legit never seen a woman be like "omg let's burn all men #feminism" in a serious way. Like ever. And I'm on tumblr.
I have had so called feminists be sexist to me and other guys multiple times and those guys afraid of women and blaming women are conveniently calling themselves MGTOW and they are not true MGTOW.
@trentlee1244 Were they being sexist to you by telling you to do something that would only benefit you? Were they being sexist by pointing out how something was unfair between you and them? Were they being sexist by asserting their bodily rights eg. cutting their hair how they want instead of how you want? Were they being sexist by existing?
Because those are all reasons I've been told I'm not only sexist, I'm apparently a misandrist for these reasons as well.
I don't want kids and I'm meh on marriage but I'm not like OMG LOOK AT ME #WGTOW I just do what I want without putting other people down. Why can't MGTOW boys do the same?
No they were making sexist, derogatory and hateful comments about men just because they hate men and that is not acceptable, I don't go around making derogatory comments about women. And as I said true MGTOW do what we want without putting other people down because we respect other peoples choices as they should respect ours.
@trentlee1244 Uh huuuh... Like I said. I'm pretty dubious here based on my own experiences.
Which is why your friends are so into hating women? And like I'm kind of starting to see the disliking women thing in you too. Maybe I'm wrong but ehhhhh...
I am not friends with sexist people that hate the opposite gender nor do I associate with people that breed hate, respect my choice and don't question it
@trentlee1244 You're not asking me to do that. You're telling me I WILL do that. That's rude. If you really are fair between people it will show and you won't have to order me to do anything.
Basic common courtesy respect others and their choices/opinions without hating on them, while you may have your opinion and you can state what it is but don't force it on people that have a different opinion.
I am going to be honest here, the comments you make give the impression you really don't like men and in some cases actually come across offensive towards men
@trentlee1244 I don't have a problem with men for being men. I have problems with rude men. I have problems with men who lie to me. I have problems with men who don't take responsibility for their choices and/or actions. I don't have problems with men just because they're men though.
Also just a constructive suggestion (your choice if you follow this or not) be a bit more careful with your comments so you don't come across negative towards men because some of the comments honestly gave that impression. We are all living in this world together and there is too much hate which we need to stop, people like Trump are the problem spreading hate.
Not necessarily. But it is a defeatist movement. However i thonk a lot of the members have been trough some horrible things, which has made them lose all hope. Still i its not like they are an aggressive or violent grouo, so no problems with me
I agree with the first half. That much hostility comes from equal parts pain.
As for the second part, I realize the stupidity of it being said online from behind a keyboard somewhere in the world, but I've been told to kill myself, that I should have the evil (being female) beaten out of me, and one anon was kind enough to offer that he will enjoy killing me slowly when the day comes. Delusional. And they do that in response to me challenging them no more than I ever have you. Unfortunately, they are the ones who overshadow the true problems facing men, and lose all credibility to anyone who actually wants to work on the issues.
@HaveQuestions Wow. I didn't know they went around bashing women like that. I tought they were satisfied in "going their own way". Well i guess participants dont always do what they are meant to. I can see why they got a bad rep now.
If they were content in "going their own way," I'd take no issue with that. Unfortunately no, they don't always do as intended. And that's why "movements" lose all credibility when some who claim their name go sideways and do stuff under their name that is "louder" than the members who follow the original intent.
Think of a peaceful protest- all it takes is one member to lose their shit and resort to violence (even if provoked) and the entirety of the group loses credibility.
i don't think their beliefs are dumb, i don't want to get married or have kids but i still want a girlfriend. I just think having a group for it and they way they go about things is dumb.
Rational. No. "Rational decision making favors objective data and a formal process of analysis over subjectivity and intuition." I have talked with you before, and yiu tend to always return to subjectivity (you and other mgtows rely on their personal experiences) and intuition (men get fucked by a broken system, therefore we should unite against women. Even though plenty of women are not the system that is broken). Resorting to hostility because you faced hostility does not make a rational solution. It makes double hostility.
Have you read the study I linked for you in a previous thread? If not, and if you can't be bothered to look at objective data and account for it in your opinion making process, then refrain from calling it rational.
Fair enough. My comment was toward your own attitudes in previous threads regarding Mgtow, as well as the attitudes of many of its members.
You certainly do have a right to "not play." What doesn't make rational sense, however, is the yelling, bitterness, and hate espoused by both feminists and Mgtow.
I said it before, I'll say it again: "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
As have I. And that is theorizing. You're using observations to justify actions, and choosing to refrain from interacting with women based on a cluster of personal observations is not rationality. That's subjectivity. And it is a perfectly acceptable choice, as long as it remains yours, others are neither pressured to agree or disagree, and outgroups are not demonized. A rational decision would include consideration of objective data, as well as incorporate proposal of positive solutions. Nothing will ever be solved by a "hands off" approach either. It is your option, and your choice. It is not a solution to the bitterness between genders.
Like i said, women and society have become hostile towards men, and i'm not going to be a part of it. The only smart thing is to not get married, or if you want to be on the safe side, not have any kind of relationship with other women, whether it's sexual or long/short-term.
I'm not going to "try my luck" and risk getting fucked over hard.
Some women have, and have always been. Some are louder about it now. Some men have always been as well, and some are louder about it now. Doesn't mean they are making progress by simply being loud.
You don't have to be a part of it. I can respect your choice. Refusal to participate in relationship with the opposite gender does not have to mean uncoupling of the responsibiloty of both genders to work on solutions, however. Your choice to not participate, I can respect. It is the yelling, criticizing, and general bitterness of both sides that I cannot.
Either be rational, work on solutions, or refrain from shouting about your "injustices." In essence, either be a part of the solution, or do not complain about the results. Hands off is a respectable choice. But hands off does not get to claim any unhappiness with outcome, since they chose nor to participate in whatever solution comes or does not come.
Here's another statement that some other guy made, which is very true indeed:
"The men’s rights activists don’t like us because, while we agree with them on some things, we won’t be their cannon fodder in a war we know they can’t win. Pickup artists hate us because they can’t make money off us. Feminists hate us because we won’t fight them. And women hate us because we won’t give them what they want.”
It sounds very defeatist, to be honest, and still so much hate present. I can appreciate that some men have been so fucked over that they have opted to withdraw.
Like I said, though, if you withdraw from a problem then others will be responsible for picking it up and working out a solution. Therefore, if you withdraw, you forfeit any recourse you had to complain about whatever result comes.
Refusal to participate in a problem on a personal level is not the same as refusal to participate in a solution on a societal level. You can do both, and retain your right to question the outcome.
I've watched, read, and explored a lot of information about the "red pill" ideology and mgtow. I'd still like to see you read the study I gave you as well. Rationality considers information from both sides, not just the favored one.
I've already watched. Have you read the study yet? Practice what you preach, my friend. I'm happy to continue this conversation when you have as well. I do have to go for now, and thank you for the discourse. I hope you have a good rest of your day.
I have. Whether you believe me or not. And what I say comes from a critical evaluation of the info from all sides, including those not associated with either feminists or mgtow.
Ironic, because those same words could be leveled at you, since you're avoiding reading the info I gave you.
I do hope you have a good rest of your day. Maybe we can continue this later.
@HaveQuestions The only way to solve the problem is to avoid interaction with women as much as possible and to refuse to have any form of romantic/intimate interaction. By denying women our resources and denying them husbands and children, women will eventually become so unhappy that they will relegate Feminism to the sewer of history and demand changes to the things that alienated the affections of men. These things include, but are not limited to: divorce law, rape/consent law, discrimination in employment and education. I have not touched a woman for about 15.5 years, despite plenty of approaches and outright indecent proposals, because I do not want to lose my house, or my investments, or be enslaved by a child-support order, or be the target of a false rape or sexual-harassment allegation. As recently as last Saturday night I had to deal with a female who screamed sexual harassment, after I refused her advances while I was working in security.
That's what i've been trying to tell her before, but she doesn't seem to understand.
The ONLY way for a man to protect himself is to avoid interaction with women, except when it's work-related, and refuse to have any kind of relationship with women.
It's a very dangerous world out there for men, and it's not looking good.
@Topkek@cth96190 can you really not see how what you said is IDENTICAL to what feminists says, just opposite gender? It's a dangerous world for men/women, we should avoid the other sex to make them pay, if we refuse interaction they'll come to their senses, etc ad nauseum.
Avoidance of an issue is not a solution to an issue. Sorry. You have every right to avoid. Understanding it means you forfeit your right to have any say in the outcome of the issues, since you refuse to participate in the solution. When you avoid it, you give it to others to resolve.
Divorce law, rape law, if also like to see changes. And I would like to throw a thesaurus at anyone who uses the term "rapey" as a descriptor. Avoiding problems and systemic issues has never once in history solved anything. You are opting to leave the issues for others to solve, and they will.
You really have NO CLUE how it is being a man in the modern world. Being a "real man" is to ignore what women and society tells you to do or how to behave.
Why is it that only women downvote every time some guy mentions MGTOW? Because women KNOW that we have found out their tactics to control men, and we refuse to be part of it. This is why they hate us.
Intuitively plausible, but is in fact a bullshit argument. It is a bullshit argument when it becomes about the qualifications of the person being responded to, rather than about the original topic. I know, I know I'm a woman. However, your subjective premise that that alone means I'm incapable of understanding issues facing men would need much more empirical support for it to be anything more than subjective and emotional.
It's fair to say I won't know exactly what it's like to be male. It's also fair to say you won't know exactly what it's like to be female. The problem there is, it is in fact very possible that both can UNDERSTAND the other without having to be the other. That's where you lost your argument for rationality. Using objective, balanced, and broad range of information can in fact, lead to understanding.
Nobody hates you, not me anyway. And tactics to control? Come on. Put your feet back on the ground. That will get you nowhere.
It's a bullshit argument for you, because you're a WOMAN. You have no idea how women behave with men, because you have never dated a woman.
I'm sure you're smart enough to understand that the sole reason as to why women hate MGTOW, is because we refuse to become controlled by other women. This IS the fact. You don't have to agree, simply because you're a woman.
No. It is bullshit no matter what gender says it. And I'm quite sure you'd recognize it as such if a feminist walked up to you and yelled "you don't get what it's like because you're a MAN! You have no idea how men treat women, because you haven't dated a man!"
It's bullshit, because it is the equivalent of a teenager screaming at a parent that they "just don't get them!" Without a rational attempt to gain objective understanding, all you're left with no matter your gender, is reactive, emotional, bullshit. Either use balanced objective argument, or don't call it rational.
Actually, I'm smart enough to know that is your own personal reason for refusing women. Cool. But own it as yours. Don't try to bandwagon.
My biggest disappointment with mgtow overall is their refusal to calmly and rationally discuss their viewpoints. And they bring either no evidence, or refuse to even look at counter and just as valid evidence. Mgtow might be able to contribute something very worthwhile to the systemic issues, since they seem to be the victims who have been most hurt by said issues. But not with one sided, irrational, subjective yelling and screaming. I'm sorry their voice can't be included, because I actually think it could be of use.
I make my decisions based on rational and logical thinking. MGTOW is all about protecting your own sovereignty and striving to improve yourself. You still don't seem to get that, and you probably never will understand, because you're a woman.
There you go again with your false dichotomies. All men are not angels and all women are not devils. That's ridiculously shallow, and just plain wrong across the entire damn board.
Good for you, I don't go to marches either. Guess what? That's irrelevant. The premises of both groups are wrong, no matter who marches or who just yells on websites.
We're not equal... well, duh. That's also irrelevant. More people could understand mgtow if they actually rationally spoke their points, how they have been harmed, what systemic issue is most impactful, and how they see it needing to change. And use evidence. Not subjectivity. Most everyone can see gender issues, legal issues, and how they are broken. Nothing changes until people can talk, think, and work together however. So, the system will remain broken, until others fix it for mgtow. And that's the shame. That they refuse to contribute rationally to any forward motion.
Lmao... because I'm a woman. Argh. That single statement is what undermines any and all attempt you make to call yourself rational or logical. That is pure subjective emotion.
I believe in sovereignty of mind as well. I believe in logic, rationality, and self improvement. Those aren't relegated to one gender or the other.
What you seem to keep failing to see is, both genders live in a larger world, with systemic issues that affect both and are broken, and no amount of false dividing lines is going to change that. You will not "change women" by refusing to engage with them. You'll simply be alone. There is no grand outcome from your withdrawal. The rest of the world will go on working on the issues between the genders, and since you still live in the world that will decide them, you will be imoacted by them. Why would you not want to put aside subjective emotion for an opportunity to help shape what you will ultimately live by?
You can't fix the fucking system until women CHANGE themselves. It is a danger to even approach or talk to other women nowadays, which is why so many men don't bother with it anymore. You won't understand that because you're a woman.
I'm not going to risk my reputation or my personal life, and call out the injustice because men get branded as misogynists, rapists and whatnot all the time. You have to be nuts to even consider that. You won't ever understand it because you're a woman. Don't try to come here and shame all guys going MGTOW, thinking you're superior. It makes you look pathetic.
And now, it seems we've come full circle and gone as far as you are willing. While I appreciate the discussion, if you are opting to revert to the name calling and the "you're a woman!" arguments then I'm afraid you've shut down the conversation.
People are the way they are because of the system, not the other way around. We adapt to what environment we live in.
I'm not shaming you. I haven't called you any names, yelled anything rude. I'm challenging you to grow a little bit, hear something that doesn't agree with you, but is no less valid. There's a difference. I'm sorry you don't want to see it.
Again, I've enjoyed talking to you. I hope you have a good rest of your day, Topkek.
I'm aware that many men who have experienced the broken system and been screwed over. And that, is the definition of subjective. Personal experience. Compilation of it doesn't change that. Until you add in objective measures of it, research, and account for the opposing experiences with objectivity and research also.
I have not ever said I'm smarter, that's silly. And no, I've never said you are wrong about what you've experienced. That would be silly I've said the way you present it is. And I think you all coupd do better, and people would hear you and could benefit from hearing your experiences. But that it would take a less hostile, more equally willing to listen rather than just yell, approach. I think all men and women should be capable of that, which is part of why I don't think you're wrong. I think you could do better. That's it.
I do have to go, but am happy as always, to talk again if you'd like.
@HaveQuestions So it's not objectivity that women initiate 70% of all divorces, men end up losing everything they own and have to pay child support etc? How about that men get much harsher punishments for the same crime that a man and woman commits, that's all "personal" experience huh? This is only a few of all the issues that I brought up.
"I think you could do better"
You've exposed yourself for what you truly believe in. Adding a bunch of fancy words to try to mask it won't help. Sorry.
You have no problem calling everything I just brought up "personal experience" or subjectivity, because you know that all of the issues that affect men will never affect you, or any other woman for that matter. That's why you don't care.
What Girls & Guys Said
Opinion
49Opinion
Just like feminism is a bunch of women bitching and moaning about men.
They are both idiotic and toxic groups that draw in those exact kinds of people like moths to a flame.
Like most things that are stupid (e. g., feminism, Trumpian populism, PC police, social justice warriors, ethnic nationalists), MGTOW does have some legitimate points that are well worth considering and addressing, along with a whole host of whining and hand-wringing and outrage that's just a reflection of the failure of the people involved.
Its just as stupid as feminist groups... They have some good points and cause but most of it is blown out of proportion and made up of bitter people in general. People who stand for equality who aren't extremists are perfectly fine tho
Honestly if those boys would just get the therapy they need they'd be so much better off.
they shouldn't be spending money on therapy, more like on plastic surgeries and stuff. Their looks is the main reason they have been fucked.
@grotesquecurry So what you're saying is that you need therapy too.
i survived the looks holocaust, I know its the root cause of all problems.
@grotesquecurry Which is why you're so insecure about how you look and/or your personality that you think how you look is the only thing you bring to the relationship?
I don't give a fuck about relationships because I know they are not worth it in this EXTREMELY superficial world.
@grotesquecurry So you're afraid to get into relationships too.
I am ugly genetic trash, I don't deserve relationships. Only the genetic elite should be allowed to have them so that good genes spread in the world.
@grotesquecurry So now we circle back to you needing therapy.
or i get surgeries so i can get laid and validation once in a while :)
@grotesquecurry Honey it doesn't matter what change about your outside if you don't fix your inside you'll always be unhappy.
no one is truly happy anyway
do you think girls would want to date me?
@grotesquecurry Have you ever talked to a doctor about your depression?
how the fuck exactly would a doctor help?
@grotesquecurry depression is a medical condition...
how can u all be so bluepilled and delusional tbh.
@grotesquecurry Have you asked your doctor?
my doctor was a FEMALE and she had sex with my hot brother while feeding me bullshit
@grotesquecurry make sure you tell them you have a problem with lying too.
i wish i was lying.
@grotesquecurry Sure you are.
I don't need therapy if I no desire to be in a relationship or have kids ever, I just live how I want to and not how somebody else wants me to. Respect that not everyone wants a relationship, there is also one women at my work who is the same has no desire to be in a relationship ever and everyone respects that.
for me its more of a forced thing though.
@trentlee1244 Do you actively identify as MGTOW or are you just doing your own thing?
I don't actively go around saying I'm MGTOW and I do my own thing but that is what MGTOW is really about is men wanting to do their own thing away from the norms and expectations of society (like not wanting relationships or kids when society expects you to)
@trentlee1244 Oh so then you understand there's a difference between YOU a guy doing his own thing and MGTOW boys who need to hate women and refuse to help themselves to do their own thing. Right?
True MGTOW is doing your own thing, guys that use MGTOW as an excuse to be sexist to women are not true MGTOW as is the same thing with women that use feminism as an excise to be sexist to men are not true feminists.
@trentlee1244 Honey we both know it's not. Like I've legit tried to give them chances to tell me how different they are and guess what? It's all about being afraid of women or relationships and instead of dealing with those issues they blame women for them. And I've been talking to them for yeaaaaars at this point.
I have legit never seen a woman be like "omg let's burn all men #feminism" in a serious way. Like ever. And I'm on tumblr.
I have had so called feminists be sexist to me and other guys multiple times and those guys afraid of women and blaming women are conveniently calling themselves MGTOW and they are not true MGTOW.
@trentlee1244 Were they being sexist to you by telling you to do something that would only benefit you? Were they being sexist by pointing out how something was unfair between you and them? Were they being sexist by asserting their bodily rights eg. cutting their hair how they want instead of how you want? Were they being sexist by existing?
Because those are all reasons I've been told I'm not only sexist, I'm apparently a misandrist for these reasons as well.
I don't want kids and I'm meh on marriage but I'm not like OMG LOOK AT ME #WGTOW I just do what I want without putting other people down. Why can't MGTOW boys do the same?
No they were making sexist, derogatory and hateful comments about men just because they hate men and that is not acceptable, I don't go around making derogatory comments about women. And as I said true MGTOW do what we want without putting other people down because we respect other peoples choices as they should respect ours.
@trentlee1244 Uh huuuh... Like I said. I'm pretty dubious here based on my own experiences.
Which is why your friends are so into hating women? And like I'm kind of starting to see the disliking women thing in you too. Maybe I'm wrong but ehhhhh...
I am not friends with sexist people that hate the opposite gender nor do I associate with people that breed hate, respect my choice and don't question it
@trentlee1244 There's that woman hating again...
There is no hate for women, all I am asking you to respect my choice to do my own thing and don't hate on me for it.
shit, why did i comment here (
@trentlee1244 You're not asking me to do that. You're telling me I WILL do that. That's rude. If you really are fair between people it will show and you won't have to order me to do anything.
@grotesquecurry Mute it bro
@grotesquecurry Maybe this can be a catalyst in your life that encourages you to get help
Basic common courtesy respect others and their choices/opinions without hating on them, while you may have your opinion and you can state what it is but don't force it on people that have a different opinion.
@trentlee1244 I'm not being rude to you at all but here you are being rude to me. Again...
In my opinion you are been rude to me so lets just agree to end it at this
@trentlee1244 How am I being rude?
Forget it I am done with you
@trentlee1244 Okay thanks for clarifying how you're totally different XD
I am now beginning to understand why those people think you are a misandrist
@trentlee1244 Im a misandrist for listening to your story and saying thank you?
I am going to be honest here, the comments you make give the impression you really don't like men and in some cases actually come across offensive towards men
@trentlee1244 I don't have a problem with men for being men. I have problems with rude men. I have problems with men who lie to me. I have problems with men who don't take responsibility for their choices and/or actions. I don't have problems with men just because they're men though.
That is good to hear then and I hope that logic is gender neutral and you have problems with men and women that are rude, men and women that lie etc.
@trentlee1244 of course. I'm on my phone though and very lazy XD
Also just a constructive suggestion (your choice if you follow this or not) be a bit more careful with your comments so you don't come across negative towards men because some of the comments honestly gave that impression. We are all living in this world together and there is too much hate which we need to stop, people like Trump are the problem spreading hate.
@trentlee1244 Honestly anything that isn't me saying men are perfect and I worship the air they share with me is considered negative so...
Nah... Everyone can do what they want and as long as it doesn't negatively affect anyone else - it's not stupid. It's their choice and I respect that.
Not necessarily. But it is a defeatist movement.
However i thonk a lot of the members have been trough some horrible things, which has made them lose all hope.
Still i its not like they are an aggressive or violent grouo, so no problems with me
I agree with the first half. That much hostility comes from equal parts pain.
As for the second part, I realize the stupidity of it being said online from behind a keyboard somewhere in the world, but I've been told to kill myself, that I should have the evil (being female) beaten out of me, and one anon was kind enough to offer that he will enjoy killing me slowly when the day comes. Delusional. And they do that in response to me challenging them no more than I ever have you. Unfortunately, they are the ones who overshadow the true problems facing men, and lose all credibility to anyone who actually wants to work on the issues.
@HaveQuestions
Wow. I didn't know they went around bashing women like that. I tought they were satisfied in "going their own way". Well i guess participants dont always do what they are meant to. I can see why they got a bad rep now.
If they were content in "going their own way," I'd take no issue with that. Unfortunately no, they don't always do as intended. And that's why "movements" lose all credibility when some who claim their name go sideways and do stuff under their name that is "louder" than the members who follow the original intent.
Think of a peaceful protest- all it takes is one member to lose their shit and resort to violence (even if provoked) and the entirety of the group loses credibility.
@HaveQuestions yup.
And these kinda groups have no shortage of nutcases that have been attracted to them.
It is clear to me that you do not understand MGTOW.
It sounds like the male equivalent of modern feminism... so no I don't mind. If one side complains, the other side should be able to complain too
If Mgtow really was just a bunch of neckbeards whining about women, no one would ever bother debating it so much...
Not really. Most MGTOW's are men who have been burned by unfair and sexist laws. They don't really affect you, so why are you so bothered by them?
You could say the same thing about feminist. Women whining about men.
i don't think their beliefs are dumb, i don't want to get married or have kids but i still want a girlfriend. I just think having a group for it and they way they go about things is dumb.
I don't understand exactly what's going on, what's the goal... so, I dunno.
It's not necessarily stupid, but it may be hurting society in a way similar to how feminism is.
There are some things I think are unfair for men in the legal system, but a bunch of pussys getting their panties in a knot doesn't help nothing.
No. The only rational thing for a guy to do is to go MGTOW, because women and society have become very hostile towards men.
Rational. No. "Rational decision making favors objective data and a formal process of analysis over subjectivity and intuition." I have talked with you before, and yiu tend to always return to subjectivity (you and other mgtows rely on their personal experiences) and intuition (men get fucked by a broken system, therefore we should unite against women. Even though plenty of women are not the system that is broken). Resorting to hostility because you faced hostility does not make a rational solution. It makes double hostility.
Have you read the study I linked for you in a previous thread? If not, and if you can't be bothered to look at objective data and account for it in your opinion making process, then refrain from calling it rational.
How am i resorting to hostility? I don't care what women or what someone else thinks about my decision to go MGTOW.
"The only winning move is to not play"
Fair enough. My comment was toward your own attitudes in previous threads regarding Mgtow, as well as the attitudes of many of its members.
You certainly do have a right to "not play." What doesn't make rational sense, however, is the yelling, bitterness, and hate espoused by both feminists and Mgtow.
I said it before, I'll say it again: "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
@HaveQuestions
I'm not theorizing anything, i've seen tons of men in real life get their lives shattered by divorces and false accusations, like rape or assault.
"A smart man learns from his own mistake"
"A smarter man learn from other's mistakes"
As have I. And that is theorizing. You're using observations to justify actions, and choosing to refrain from interacting with women based on a cluster of personal observations is not rationality. That's subjectivity. And it is a perfectly acceptable choice, as long as it remains yours, others are neither pressured to agree or disagree, and outgroups are not demonized. A rational decision would include consideration of objective data, as well as incorporate proposal of positive solutions. Nothing will ever be solved by a "hands off" approach either. It is your option, and your choice. It is not a solution to the bitterness between genders.
Like i said, women and society have become hostile towards men, and i'm not going to be a part of it.
The only smart thing is to not get married, or if you want to be on the safe side, not have any kind of relationship with other women, whether it's sexual or long/short-term.
I'm not going to "try my luck" and risk getting fucked over hard.
Some women have, and have always been. Some are louder about it now. Some men have always been as well, and some are louder about it now. Doesn't mean they are making progress by simply being loud.
You don't have to be a part of it. I can respect your choice. Refusal to participate in relationship with the opposite gender does not have to mean uncoupling of the responsibiloty of both genders to work on solutions, however. Your choice to not participate, I can respect. It is the yelling, criticizing, and general bitterness of both sides that I cannot.
Either be rational, work on solutions, or refrain from shouting about your "injustices." In essence, either be a part of the solution, or do not complain about the results. Hands off is a respectable choice. But hands off does not get to claim any unhappiness with outcome, since they chose nor to participate in whatever solution comes or does not come.
Here's another statement that some other guy made, which is very true indeed:
"The men’s rights activists don’t like us because, while we agree with them on some things, we won’t be their cannon fodder in a war we know they can’t win. Pickup artists hate us because they can’t make money off us. Feminists hate us because we won’t fight them. And women hate us because we won’t give them what they want.”
Go watch a documentary called "The Red Pill". It was released last week and it was created by a former feminist.
It sounds very defeatist, to be honest, and still so much hate present. I can appreciate that some men have been so fucked over that they have opted to withdraw.
Like I said, though, if you withdraw from a problem then others will be responsible for picking it up and working out a solution. Therefore, if you withdraw, you forfeit any recourse you had to complain about whatever result comes.
Refusal to participate in a problem on a personal level is not the same as refusal to participate in a solution on a societal level. You can do both, and retain your right to question the outcome.
I've watched, read, and explored a lot of information about the "red pill" ideology and mgtow. I'd still like to see you read the study I gave you as well. Rationality considers information from both sides, not just the favored one.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3686998/
Watch it first, and comment later.
I've already watched. Have you read the study yet? Practice what you preach, my friend. I'm happy to continue this conversation when you have as well. I do have to go for now, and thank you for the discourse. I hope you have a good rest of your day.
No, you haven't watched shit. You won't be talking the same way you do now after watching it, believe me.
I have. Whether you believe me or not. And what I say comes from a critical evaluation of the info from all sides, including those not associated with either feminists or mgtow.
Ironic, because those same words could be leveled at you, since you're avoiding reading the info I gave you.
I do hope you have a good rest of your day. Maybe we can continue this later.
@HaveQuestions
The only way to solve the problem is to avoid interaction with women as much as possible and to refuse to have any form of romantic/intimate interaction.
By denying women our resources and denying them husbands and children, women will eventually become so unhappy that they will relegate Feminism to the sewer of history and demand changes to the things that alienated the affections of men. These things include, but are not limited to: divorce law, rape/consent law, discrimination in employment and education.
I have not touched a woman for about 15.5 years, despite plenty of approaches and outright indecent proposals, because I do not want to lose my house, or my investments, or be enslaved by a child-support order, or be the target of a false rape or sexual-harassment allegation.
As recently as last Saturday night I had to deal with a female who screamed sexual harassment, after I refused her advances while I was working in security.
@cth96190
That's what i've been trying to tell her before, but she doesn't seem to understand.
The ONLY way for a man to protect himself is to avoid interaction with women, except when it's work-related, and refuse to have any kind of relationship with women.
It's a very dangerous world out there for men, and it's not looking good.
@Topkek @cth96190 can you really not see how what you said is IDENTICAL to what feminists says, just opposite gender? It's a dangerous world for men/women, we should avoid the other sex to make them pay, if we refuse interaction they'll come to their senses, etc ad nauseum.
Avoidance of an issue is not a solution to an issue. Sorry. You have every right to avoid. Understanding it means you forfeit your right to have any say in the outcome of the issues, since you refuse to participate in the solution. When you avoid it, you give it to others to resolve.
Divorce law, rape law, if also like to see changes. And I would like to throw a thesaurus at anyone who uses the term "rapey" as a descriptor. Avoiding problems and systemic issues has never once in history solved anything. You are opting to leave the issues for others to solve, and they will.
@HaveQuestions
You really have NO CLUE how it is being a man in the modern world. Being a "real man" is to ignore what women and society tells you to do or how to behave.
Why is it that only women downvote every time some guy mentions MGTOW?
Because women KNOW that we have found out their tactics to control men, and we refuse to be part of it. This is why they hate us.
Intuitively plausible, but is in fact a bullshit argument. It is a bullshit argument when it becomes about the qualifications of the person being responded to, rather than about the original topic. I know, I know I'm a woman. However, your subjective premise that that alone means I'm incapable of understanding issues facing men would need much more empirical support for it to be anything more than subjective and emotional.
It's fair to say I won't know exactly what it's like to be male. It's also fair to say you won't know exactly what it's like to be female. The problem there is, it is in fact very possible that both can UNDERSTAND the other without having to be the other. That's where you lost your argument for rationality. Using objective, balanced, and broad range of information can in fact, lead to understanding.
Nobody hates you, not me anyway. And tactics to control? Come on. Put your feet back on the ground. That will get you nowhere.
@HaveQuestions
It's a bullshit argument for you, because you're a WOMAN. You have no idea how women behave with men, because you have never dated a woman.
I'm sure you're smart enough to understand that the sole reason as to why women hate MGTOW, is because we refuse to become controlled by other women. This IS the fact. You don't have to agree, simply because you're a woman.
No. It is bullshit no matter what gender says it. And I'm quite sure you'd recognize it as such if a feminist walked up to you and yelled "you don't get what it's like because you're a MAN! You have no idea how men treat women, because you haven't dated a man!"
It's bullshit, because it is the equivalent of a teenager screaming at a parent that they "just don't get them!" Without a rational attempt to gain objective understanding, all you're left with no matter your gender, is reactive, emotional, bullshit. Either use balanced objective argument, or don't call it rational.
Actually, I'm smart enough to know that is your own personal reason for refusing women. Cool. But own it as yours. Don't try to bandwagon.
My biggest disappointment with mgtow overall is their refusal to calmly and rationally discuss their viewpoints. And they bring either no evidence, or refuse to even look at counter and just as valid evidence. Mgtow might be able to contribute something very worthwhile to the systemic issues, since they seem to be the victims who have been most hurt by said issues. But not with one sided, irrational, subjective yelling and screaming. I'm sorry their voice can't be included, because I actually think it could be of use.
@HaveQuestions
Men pamper and spoil women on dates. Don't come here and say that it's not true. You very well know it is true.
I don't go on marches or protests like feminists do. I don't really care what other people do or say. I only care about myself, first and foremost.
You have a hard time understanding how MGTOWs think, because men's and women's brains are wired differently. We're not equal we will never be equal.
@HaveQuestions
I make my decisions based on rational and logical thinking. MGTOW is all about protecting your own sovereignty and striving to improve yourself. You still don't seem to get that, and you probably never will understand, because you're a woman.
There you go again with your false dichotomies. All men are not angels and all women are not devils. That's ridiculously shallow, and just plain wrong across the entire damn board.
Good for you, I don't go to marches either. Guess what? That's irrelevant. The premises of both groups are wrong, no matter who marches or who just yells on websites.
We're not equal... well, duh. That's also irrelevant. More people could understand mgtow if they actually rationally spoke their points, how they have been harmed, what systemic issue is most impactful, and how they see it needing to change. And use evidence. Not subjectivity. Most everyone can see gender issues, legal issues, and how they are broken. Nothing changes until people can talk, think, and work together however. So, the system will remain broken, until others fix it for mgtow. And that's the shame. That they refuse to contribute rationally to any forward motion.
Lmao... because I'm a woman. Argh. That single statement is what undermines any and all attempt you make to call yourself rational or logical. That is pure subjective emotion.
I believe in sovereignty of mind as well. I believe in logic, rationality, and self improvement. Those aren't relegated to one gender or the other.
What you seem to keep failing to see is, both genders live in a larger world, with systemic issues that affect both and are broken, and no amount of false dividing lines is going to change that. You will not "change women" by refusing to engage with them. You'll simply be alone. There is no grand outcome from your withdrawal. The rest of the world will go on working on the issues between the genders, and since you still live in the world that will decide them, you will be imoacted by them. Why would you not want to put aside subjective emotion for an opportunity to help shape what you will ultimately live by?
@HaveQuestions
You can't fix the fucking system until women CHANGE themselves. It is a danger to even approach or talk to other women nowadays, which is why so many men don't bother with it anymore. You won't understand that because you're a woman.
I'm not going to risk my reputation or my personal life, and call out the injustice because men get branded as misogynists, rapists and whatnot all the time. You have to be nuts to even consider that.
You won't ever understand it because you're a woman. Don't try to come here and shame all guys going MGTOW, thinking you're superior. It makes you look pathetic.
And now, it seems we've come full circle and gone as far as you are willing. While I appreciate the discussion, if you are opting to revert to the name calling and the "you're a woman!" arguments then I'm afraid you've shut down the conversation.
People are the way they are because of the system, not the other way around. We adapt to what environment we live in.
I'm not shaming you. I haven't called you any names, yelled anything rude. I'm challenging you to grow a little bit, hear something that doesn't agree with you, but is no less valid. There's a difference. I'm sorry you don't want to see it.
Again, I've enjoyed talking to you. I hope you have a good rest of your day, Topkek.
Everything I described is reality for so many men worldwide, and you're telling me that our decisions aren't based on rational and logical thinking?
Yes, you are so much smarter than everyone else, and all MGTOWS are wrong.
I'm aware that many men who have experienced the broken system and been screwed over. And that, is the definition of subjective. Personal experience. Compilation of it doesn't change that. Until you add in objective measures of it, research, and account for the opposing experiences with objectivity and research also.
I have not ever said I'm smarter, that's silly. And no, I've never said you are wrong about what you've experienced. That would be silly I've said the way you present it is. And I think you all coupd do better, and people would hear you and could benefit from hearing your experiences. But that it would take a less hostile, more equally willing to listen rather than just yell, approach. I think all men and women should be capable of that, which is part of why I don't think you're wrong. I think you could do better. That's it.
I do have to go, but am happy as always, to talk again if you'd like.
Thanks, Topkek
@HaveQuestions So it's not objectivity that women initiate 70% of all divorces, men end up losing everything they own and have to pay child support etc? How about that men get much harsher punishments for the same crime that a man and woman commits, that's all "personal" experience huh? This is only a few of all the issues that I brought up.
"I think you could do better"
You've exposed yourself for what you truly believe in. Adding a bunch of fancy words to try to mask it won't help. Sorry.
You have no problem calling everything I just brought up "personal experience" or subjectivity, because you know that all of the issues that affect men will never affect you, or any other woman for that matter. That's why you don't care.
Child support should be paid regardless of who has custody. It's just responsible parenting! And being a responsible adult!
There are more labels and movements than people with common sense these days.
Seems to be a reaction to feminism, which really is stupid
Yes, I think MGTOW is stupid. Bunch of whiners if you ask me