Which was the best partition plan for Germany?

[disgustingweebtrash]

It was fine as it is

Winston Churchill's

Franklin D. Roosevelt

Morgenthau Plan

[behnam1999]

Whatever it was, they killed many innocent German people, specially the soviets were worse. Americans and the British burned the German people of Dresden, including "children" alive with their incendiary bombs. Of course the attacks used to take place at night so most people were asleep and didn't have any chance to escape, and specially because they don't had enough courage to attack during the day. After the occupation of Germany, evils also called as soviets encouraged by a Jew, Ilya Ehrunberg, killed, slaughtered and rape women. They didn't even have mercy on children. One may ask what was the fault of children? But the monster, Ilya Ehrunberg, didn't care whether the victims were children or soldiers, he just encouraged the soldiers, to kill, kill and kill.
On September 15, 1944, Franklin Roosevelt made the
demand for extermination official when he endorsed the so-called
“Morgenthau Plan.”Named for Roosevelt’s Secretary of the Treasury,
Henry Morgenthau, but actually conceived by the secretary’s top
aide, Harry Dexter White—both of whom were Jewish—the program
called for the complete destruction of Germany after victory had
been won. In addition to the dismantling or destruction of German
industry and the permanent closure of mines, the Morgenthau Plan
called for a reduction of the Reich’s land area by one half. As many calculated, and as Roosevelt, Gen. George C. Marshall and other proponents of the plan well knew, this act guaranteed that roughly two thirds of the German population, or fifty million people, would soon die of starvation. With the remnant of the population reduced to subsistence farming, and with the shrunken nation totally at the mercy of hostile European neighbors, it was estimated that within two generations Germany would cease to exist.(Russell D. Buhite, Decisions at Yalta (Wilmington, Del.: Scholarly Resources, Inc., 1986), 25; Eugene Davidson, The Death and Life of Germany (New York: Alfred Knopf, 1959), 6; Gregory Douglas, Gestapo Chief 3 (San Jose, Cal.: R. James Bender, Pub., 1998), 187.)

[behnam1999]

“They have asked for it. . . ,” snapped Morgenthau when someone expressed shock at the plan. “Why the hell should I worry about what happens to their people?”(Buhite, Yalta, 23)
“You don’t want the Germans to starve?” Roosevelt’s incredulous son-in-law asked the president in private.“Why not?” replied Roosevelt without batting an eye.(Diary of Henry Morgenthau, entry for March 20, 1945)
With this statement of Roosevelt, we can completely find out his evil nature. How can you be indifferent to the lives of people. Were they condemned to death, just because they were Germans and lived under national socialist Germany?

[Naydyonov]

"Ilya Ehrunberg, didn't care whether the victims were children or soldiers, he just encouraged the soldiers, to kill, kill and kill."
"they killed many innocent German people, specially the soviets were worse. Americans and the British burned the German people of Dresden,"

First off if the first statement was true then the German population would be non existent. People were killed, a couple dozen thousand, nothing in comparison to the German elimination of a fifth of the Polish Population.

You're comparing Nazi Germany to the allies. It's ridiculous. Germany set up concentration camps, death squads.
They were the ones who burned down and annihilated the inhabitants of thousands of settlements, villages, and towns.

Germany started a Total War, and what it received was a total war.
You cannot blame a person for shooting a criminal when the criminal started shooting at him with the words "Shoot me back bitch".

[behnam1999]

@Naydyonov Holohoax is a myth. Jewish Communists killed much more people, around 20 to 40 million Eastern European people in very horrible means that no one can even imagine. I have to admit that red revolution was not initiated by Russians, but by Jews. Take Katyn forest as an example, Soviets did that and they blamed it on Germany, even America and Britain knew about the truth but they blamed the Germans for it. I can even reject Holohoax with evidence, the worst kind of genocide by the Germans that is alleged by the allies. It is what the Western countries concentrate on the most, especially the Auschwitz.

[behnam1999]

@Naydyonov Take a look at the other side of story, see what the Germans say:
“[T]hey tortured civilians in many villages. . . ,” reported one German officer,“nailed some on barn doors and shot many others.”(Alfred M. deZayas, Nemesis at Potsdam (London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1977), 61)
Along the roads, “treks” of fleeing refugees had been overtaken by the communists, the people pulled from their carts, then raped and murdered on the spot. It was at Nemmersdorf, though, where stunned soldiers first viewed hell on earth. Recorded a physician with the army, Lt. Heinrich Amberger:
"On the road through Nemmersdorf, near the bridge. . . I saw where a whole trek of refugees had been rolled over by Russian tanks; not only the wagons and teams, but also a goodly number of civilians, mostly women and children. . . . [They] had been squashed flat by the tanks."

[behnam1999]

@Naydyonov He continues:
"At the edge of the road and in the farm yards lay quantities of corpses of civilians who evidently. . . had been murdered systematically."(Alfred M. deZayas, Nemesis at Potsdam (London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1977),62–63)
The statement of Ilya Ehrunberg is completely true and evident.(Source:Hoffman, Michael. (1997). Campaign for Radical Truth in History. P. O. Box 849. Coeur d’ Alene, ID 83816. Ehrenburg won the Order of Lenin and the Stalin Prize and willed his papers to the Israeli Yad Vashem Holocaust Museum.)
Anatol Goldberg (A Jew, his name, Goldberg reminds you of the Jews and at least his face can completely tell you that he is Jewish) quoted Ehrenburg in his book, Ilya Ehrenburg as saying, “…the Germans are not human beings…nothing gives us so much joy as German corpses."

[behnam1999]

@Naydyonov (Source:Goldberg, Anatol. (1984). Ilya Ehrenburg : Revolutionary, novelist, poet, war correspondent, propagandist : the extraordinary epic of a Russian survivor. New York : Viking.)
All the statements are true, Germans were killed like animals when the soviets arrived. Just take a look at Kaufman's (A Jew) work "Germany must perish". A lot of propaganda was pounded into the minds of Allied soldiers. There were plans of German extermination, and yeah some people opposed it, total extermination never happened (of course they couldn't kill all the Germans, it was harmful to their democratic claims), but a large number of Germans were killed in a sadistic manner. It happened only because of that propaganda against German people during the war that turned the allied soldiers into monsters.

[behnam1999]

@Naydyonov “The disaster that befell this area with the entry of the Soviet forces has no parallel in modern European experience. There were considerable sections of it where, to judge by all existing evidence, scarcely a man, woman or child of the indigenous population was left alive after the initial passage of the Soviet forces.” George F. Kennan, Memoirs, 1967
As Russian armies poured into Germany near the end of the war, the Jewish Soviet Propaganda Minister, Ilya Ehrenburg as I said, had millions of leaflets printed up and dropped onto the Russian troops, exhorting them when they entered Germany to:
“Kill the Germans, wherever you find them! Every German is our mortal enemy. Have no mercy on women, children, or the aged! Kill every German — wipe them out!”
books.google.be/books
Please read all of the eyewitness accounts. I can't really post them all here!

[behnam1999]

@Naydyonov See what the poles and soviets did to German girls, even reading it makes you unable of having sleep at night!

[behnam1999]

@Naydyonov The reaction of the world to these genocides, is silence, they never talk about it as they talk about the holohoax. Never forget, I'm completely ready and confident to have discussions about Holohoax.

[Naydyonov]

A few Examples of due to Germany; Civilian Deaths:
Czechoslovakia: 300,000
France: 390,000
Poland: 5,700,000
USSR: 16,500,000
Yugoslavia: 1,000,000
Total: 23,890,000

German Civilian Deaths:
2,250,000

At the Very Minimum (!!) For every 1 German civilian 10.7 other Civilian deaths.

So please, all country suffered. , Considering the damage Germany did to the continent they were let off Easy.

Written about children. What about the millions of children Germany killed? Burning them alive, beating their heads in, shooting them, gassing them.

[Dash1]

"Ehrenburg accompanied the Soviet forces during the East Prussian Offensive and criticized the indiscriminate violence against German civilians, for which he was reprimanded by Stalin. However, his words were later reinterpreted as license for atrocities against German civilians during the Soviet invasion of Germany in 1945. Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels accused Ehrenburg of advocating the rape of German women. However, Ehrenburg denied this and historian Antony Beevor considers it a Nazi fabrication. In January 1945, Adolf Hitler claimed that "Stalin's court lackey, Ilya Ehrenburg, declares that the German people must be exterminated." After criticism by Georgy Aleksandrov in Pravda in April 1945, Ehrenburg responded that he never meant wiping out the German people, but only German aggressors who came to our soil with weapons, because "we are not Nazis" who fight with civilians."

From Wikipedia, article Ilya Ehrenburg, paragraph World War II.

[Dash1]

"Holohoax" and "Jewish Communists". Wow, that’s some serious Holocaust denial and conspiracy of Jewish Bolshevism here. Sorry but can’t take seriously somebody who uses such pathetic terms. Also you didn’t provide the evidence, should I believe you just because you said you could?
Never mind, I don’t believe it would be a relevant unbiased source even if you would provide it then. And the atrocities committed by Soviets and Western Allies are no excuse for the atrocities committed by Nazis.

[ThisDudeHere]

Roosevelt in my opinion had the best idea. Made historical sense that way.

[disgustingweebtrash]

See that's what I was thinking, I think Churchill wanted to make history a meme

[ThisDudeHere]

Indeed. The West German state made no sense. It'd be outcompeted by everyone.

[disgustingweebtrash]

I believe the Rhineland was the center of Germany's arms industry, so that might be the reason for it's seperation from North/South German state

[ThisDudeHere]

Yeah I thought about Rhineland after posting. But I forgot where it was.

[QueenofCups]

I'm embarrassed to admit I don't know enough WWII history to know what these plans are.

[disgustingweebtrash]

It's ok

[tartaarsaus]

I doubt most people know anything about the ramifications of i. e. the Morgenthau plan

[QueenofCups]

Thanks for MHO!

[Alexisgr1108]

As Greek say none with nazi flag up on the parthenon no thanks.

[JimRSmith]

The Morgenthau Plan was a very interesting one.

Never been tried before or since.

[tartaarsaus]

I suppose it's a good thing it wasn't tried before, because it would pretty much destroy Germany and every hope of a prosperous Europe

[tartaarsaus]

Morgenthau plan was utterly retarded, for starters. The man even said that the surplus of 25 million people who couldn't be fed with the plan, should be dumped in North Africa. That should exemplify the madness.

A strong Germany is absolutely crucial for the economy and stability of Europe. Hence I suppose the current one is the best. It gives ample opportunity for reconstruction growth with the zonal barriers like there would be when there would be independent states. That was the whole point of Roosevelt's, Churchill's and Morgenthau's plan, to destroy German industrial potential by splitting it. That's not good, Europe - especially my country - needs a strong Germany. Europe needed a strong Germany as a frontier against communism. A strong Europe was impossible without a strong Germany, which would be impossible in any of those plans listed, except the current one.

[disgustingweebtrash]

Communism was a mistake

[tartaarsaus]

Also, Churchill was a proper madman when it came to the future of Germany. He wanted Germany to turn into a 'pastoral state'. Let's just look at Hoover's report to the White House in the 40s, "there is the illusion that the New Germany left after the annexation can be reduced to a 'pastoral state', it cannot be done unless we exterminate or move 25,000,000 people out of it. This would approximately reduce Germany to the density of the population of France."
(Dietrich, J., The Morgenthau plan: Soviet influence on American Postwar Policy)

[disgustingweebtrash]

Yeah he was a madman, I don't know why he's considered an important figure in British history, look at this partition plan (Hungary, really?

[disgustingweebtrash]

)...

[tartaarsaus]

The problem with this question is exemplified by the support for Churchill plan. Clay and other figures of great importance at the time all knew that such a plan - with policies like JCS-1067 - of turning it into a pastoral state would be detrimental to Europe, Germany and the USA as a whole.

[tartaarsaus]

@disgustingweebtrash I don't get why you would add Hungary to it. Austria was annexed so it makes a bit more sense but Hungary? I don't get it

[disgustingweebtrash]

Maybe because of Austria-Hungary? Or just to piss off Stalin

[tartaarsaus]

I doubt it. It makes no sense. Roosevelt's plan was based on cultural groups and such while Churchill is essentially putting a vast non-German minority in a German state. It doesn't make sense.

Stalin already got what he wanted with what was agreed at Tehran, Yalta and Potsdam. The Soviet-Union also was a proponent of the unification of a German state, before Potsdam. That would be impossible but Stalin had so much power that I don't think Churchill could enforce it, he was barely able to give France an insignificant position in the negotiations about Germany

[jacquesvol]

My general impression is that finally, Germany won WW2 in 1990. The war itself was just the start and the partition halted Germany's rule over continental Europe for 45 years.
Right now Germany is again allying with the Visegrad group to form a Central European block without the other EU countries.
But Fascism lost WW2.

[disgustingweebtrash]

>Pomerania, Poznan, Silesia and worst of all, Königsberg lost
>Germany won WW2
?

[jacquesvol]

They didn't lose enough.

[Anon85]

I voted for David but the more I think about it the more I agree with Churchill's plan. What's the purpose of that tiny West German state, though?

[Anon85]

D lol. I voted for option D not David

[disgustingweebtrash]

I have literally no clue what that is, I don't like Churchill's plan at all, seems like a massive shitpost

[Anon85]

Well, splitting it in two makes sense for dividing the nations power while keeping it under their control, and it wouldn't have landed Eastern Germany in Soviet hands. No wall, less Cold War tension. But the small western state feels really odd

[tartaarsaus]

The tiny German state is where the bulk of German industry is located. By taking it away from the other states, those could never industrially develop enough and grow strong. It would prevent a strong Germany from rising. Ironically, Europe couldn't be possibly as strong as it is now without Germany.

[Anon85]

@tartaarsauus Give it 30 more years and we'll see just how valuable Germany is in 30 years if they don't get a handle on their refugee crisis

[tartaarsaus]

I should point out that D, the Morgenthau plan is certainly the most retarded of the lot. It would essentially be completely destroying all industrial and agricultural assets of Germany, turning it into a pastoral state. According to reports to the White House a more lenient version of it would inevitably be a choice exterminating or moving 25 million people.

[tartaarsaus]

@Anon85 Irrelevant. Germany is by far the economic powerhouse of Europe and continues to be it. Europe could never be in the state where it is now without the economic miracle of Germany. A strong Germany was needed, like Clay and other major persons from the time pointed starting in 1946.

[disgustingweebtrash]

>Germany
>handle refugee crisis

Don't put fake ideas into peoples heads!

[Anon85]

I wasn't saying it wasn't valuable, only that it may lose its importance if the issues it's facing don't resolve themselves well.

As far as I recall even what actually happened led to the deaths of millions of Germans after the division already via the displacements following the partitioning of the countries territory. So now that I think about it leaving more land to the Germans might have helped stifle that, though the ethnic Germans living in surrounding territories would still find themselves homeless and starving. But it would nonetheless be better than the IRL outcome

[Anon85]

@disgustingweebtrash It probably is wishful thinking

[disgustingweebtrash]

Germany for Germans? Nah man. Germany for Somalians

[tartaarsaus]

@Anon85 Sure, you get a little bit extra land while all industrial and agricultural assets are destroyed. There was no chance for the Morgenthau plan to ever work. It would utterly destroy Germany and murder millions upon millions. A famine was already growing without the Morgenthau plan, imagine how bad it would be with it. As for the displacements, they would have happened anyway. The small land extra doesn't cover the millions upon millions of refugees.

It would absolutely not be better than the real outcome. Why is this? Because without the Morgenthau plan and after a year the occupation forces started GARIOA and other programs, and started revitalising German industry in order to get the agriculture back up and running. There is no hope of it ever being better than the normal situation with the Morgenthau plan

[tartaarsaus]

Also, no. It wouldn't lose its importance. Economic growth has been attained, trades has been made, convergence has happened and the countries are developed. The financial burden of refugees can be taken care off, especially by the German which has vast reserves.

[tartaarsaus]

But I'd like to see how you would counter the robust arguments by Hoover, Clay and other major researchers from the time who showed the Morgenthau plan and JCS-1067 would be one big disaster. Did you ever wonder why JCS-1067 was largely ignored because it was impossible to execute without mass murder?

[Anon85]

I was saying I changed my mind and the extra land granted by Churchill would have saved more lives. I was literally saying that it was worse than the others upon closer inspection

[tartaarsaus]

Okay. The plan of Churchill was a massive disaster as well since it was about turning Germany into a pastoral state. That would utterly destroy German industry and thus destroy every hope of a strong Europe. And just like with the Morgenthau plan, it would cause 25 million German deaths, like Hoover reported. In other ways the Churchill plan was rather similar to Morgenthau

[tartaarsaus]

Let's be honest here, the current day variant is by far the best. It resulted in a economical strong Germany, which couldn't happen with the others. It created a good barrier against communism, which couldn't happen with the others. It prevented massive famines combined with the other policies, which wouldn't happen with the other variants.

No wonder all other variants were swiftly rejected and they opted for the eventual occupation zone variant.

[Anon85]

Look, I'm not an expert here. I was just putting in my two sense with what info I had already known. I'm not looking to debate something I know so little about.

[DesiBeautyLover]

You forgot Merkel plan, where half the country belongs to Muslims.

[disgustingweebtrash]

That's already in motion don't worry

[DesiBeautyLover]

I AM worried

[SuccessfulHornDog]

You left out too much detail for us to be able to decde

[JackJD]

FDR... but I need to look into Germany's history again, honestly

[Josht13]

Should've all gone to japan but whatever.

[disgustingweebtrash]

Japanese colony in Europe, interesting

[Josht13]

not Europe, the world.

[disgustingweebtrash]

J-Jesus will I get forced seppuku?

[DankMemeage420]

What if it just stayed the Holy Roman Empire?

[disgustingweebtrash]

NEINNN ALL HAIL THE KAISERREICH

[TheUglyMonk]

I follow Churchill blindly.

[disgustingweebtrash]

fuck u

[TheUglyMonk]

Fick Dich

[LegateLanius]

None. I like a full Germany

[disgustingweebtrash]

https://i.imgur.com/OaVKnlK.jpg

[LegateLanius]

I feel that if Germany didn't attack Belgium in WW1, they would not have lost

[disgustingweebtrash]

Eh, well, we joined the war because of the Treaty of London 1839 but maybe we would have joined because of some other reason

[Waffles731]

we americans joined the war because of a stupid telegram, when we should have just sat back and let Europe burn

[disgustingweebtrash]

@Waffles731 You should have stayed out of European affairs you interventionist fat bellends, let us Brits shit all over Germany in peace lmao

[Waffles731]

We should have but we bailed your asses out

[disgustingweebtrash]

@Waffles731 Nah we had it but you narcissists had to get yourselves involved, easy blockade easy food shortage EASY WAR, we had Germany by the balls and could have cut that state up into separate principalities if not for you

[Nandor]

U forgot the 5th its world domination

[disgustingweebtrash]

S-Shit

[CT_CD]

Franklin D. Roosevelt

[disgustingweebtrash]

I agree unironically

[Girlie15]

I don't know...

[disgustingweebtrash]

Pick one

[Girlie15]

No...

[Alice993]

No idea xD

[NovissimumVirorum]

Give it all to the UK

[Kat_puppies]

I don't know idc

[Tohru]

Michael Jackson