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Voted 80 times in total
The short answer to your question is no, the draft is not a violation of the 13th Amendment – nor is it a violation of any other point of law.
Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution gives Congress the powers to raise and support Armies and to provide and maintain a Navy. It does not specify or limit how Armies and a Navy are to be raised (whether voluntary or by conscription, although neither term is used in the Constitution), although it limits fiscal appropriation. This Article remains the principal authority for the present day Defense Budget.
The 13th Amendment does not supersede or alter the body of the Constitution, or the enumeration of powers outlined in it.
NO it doesn't, but in any case the US doesn't use the draft any longer.
I'm too young for sure and you are damn sure in the same boat as me as not actually knowing what it was like when our country did use the draft. I'm told by many who were around the actually the draft was a very good idea. For one thing pretty much every male at 18 was either drafted or went to college and the discipline the folks in the military learned was a big asset to leading a much better life once they got home again.
Retarded
@wolfcat87 War is not a game and war is sometimes necessary so we can continue to have a free world to live in.
@wolfcat87 You think things are not good here in the US, maybe you should use the freedom we have here and relocate to Switzerland. Nobody will forbid you to do that, however many thousands a good men and women gave their lives so that you could have that opportunity should you desire to do that!
Yup... brainwashed. XD If you think this country is free, then you have never learned U. S. History. If you think that soldiers fight for freedom, then you don't know history or current events. XD Also, I'm not fluent in any of the official languages of Switzerland. I already checked. I don't mind not being free. I'm just not brainwashed about my situation. XD We are all just pawns in someone else's game.
@wolfcat87 Explain yourself? Just what is it you think our men and women in uniform fight for? I also believe English is used in Switzerland so you should be able to pick that up fairly easy! Your only a pawn in someone else's game if you let yourself be one!
English is definitely not a widespread language in Switzerland. The main languages are French, German, and Romanche. I'd have to be fluent in one of those, live in the 3rd of the country that speaks it, and be able to afford to live there long enough and speak the language well enough and be social enough for my neighbors to vote me in.
Soldiers fight for big oil. Look up the Koch brothers. Most of this country pays them. The last war that was specifically about us was WW2, and that was an ego trip. We threw anyone who seemed too German into prison, and we locked up ALL Japanese Americans in interment camps, stole ALL of their assets, and denied them decent food and medical care based on race. During this time we also had laws targeting, blacks, Chinese, and Native Americans. We have NEVER had a single period in US. history where we didn't target multiple races with slavery, internment camps, reservation prisons, stealing children, stealing lives, etc.
Even to this day, when people tell us that our rights and freedoms are in danger and being violated, we allow the U. S. gov to continue these human right violations, and we allow them to make laws to imprison anyone who whistle blows on entities that violate our rights. Some freedom. Also, every war since the 70's has been about big oil. Look up what the Middle East was like before we decided we wanted to run an oil pipeline through that area before Russia can. They were a more modern and educated region. We have started war after war there trying to conquer the area for that oil pipeline. At this point it's the U. S., Russia, Saudi Arabia, and radical terrorists all fighting for a region that would be stable (and was stable for many years) without us. Look up before and after pics. Look up the fact that OUR MONEY and TROOPS were used to train and arm child raping war lords in Afghanistan and to arm radical terrorists to destabilize Syria. 9/11 was us by creating and arming terrorists.
www.nytimes.com/.../...n-allies-abuse-of-boys.html
money.cnn.com/.../index.html
www.globalresearch.ca/.../5410130
Notice that every time we magically "win" over some group in the Middle East, they already have a new "threat" ready to go to incite people to keep hating that area enough to allow the government to keep terrorizing and stealing in that region.
www.nytimes.com/.../cia-arming-syrian-rebels.html
www.nytimes.com/.../...-rebel-arm-train-trump.html
https://www.BBC.com/news/magazine-33997408
www.cnn.com/.../index.html
It's funny, people act like the tensions between the U. S. and Russia ended. In reality, people just stopped paying attention.
www.globalresearch.ca/.../5510640
Speak with Middle Eastern people. The educated ones will tell you that the U. S. government is a money hungry terrorist entity in their home land. We've been tormenting them since WW2 when we decided to give away Palestinian soil to European white people who did not have any right to the Middle East. Those people have since then bullied other people in the Middle East with U. S. and European backing. The Israeli army regularly molests 40% of the children they detain, and they kill any Palestinians they want and attack other countries as they please in that region. No one is allowed to kick them out because of us. In return, they aide us when we attack. Since the 70's we have systematically waged war on a list of countries in the Middle East. Pull out a map and watch how our wars have moved in a very strategic pattern over the years. We took Israel soil. The Gulf War gave us more area for military bases.
I could go on and on with many reputable sources from the U. S. and Europe. It's not a secret. No one cares to look at facts anymore. People like you assume that they must be fighting for freedom. They must be good. It's all a lie. Every single terrorist, every dead or raped child, every broken heart and broken dream is on the hands of fools like you. People like you who are just pawns in a world that has everything to do with money and nothing to do with freedom. Grow up and educate yourself. Then educate others. This brainwashing started during WW1 and WW2, but there is no excuse for it to continue in the age of mass information sharing across the globe. It's just willful ignorance at this point.
@wolfcat87 We didn't start WW2 and what we did to Germans and Japs was absolutely necessary at the time to defend our homeland. Yes it is sad that Japanese Americans were put in camps, but we had no idea who was with us and who wasn't and you proceed with the plan safest for us. Nothing that the Americans did to the Japanese or Germans comes close to the atrocities those two nations did to humans. When you go to war and loose, loosing your assets is what happens.
You are off on your Switzerland facts as well. The nation has 4 different languages, but every Swiss person has also learned English which is exactly how the 4 different languages speak back and forth. You could live there just fine although I doubt they would want you. Maybe Serbia or one of those countries would work for you. Enjoy all their freedoms
@wolfcat87 Then go live with all your Turbin Headed friends in the middle east. They could use a racist female like you to strap a bomb on so you could blow up school, market or some other spot where you could kill and injure people.
How in the world did you take me listing everyone who was not given freedom in the U. S. as me being racist? Yet, you call people in the Middle East turban headed... You are definitely racist! XD Most people in the Middle East do not wear turbans. Also, most are not terrorists, as facts have demonstrated, the terrorists are funded by the U. S., so... Also, we bombed a Doctors Without Borders clinic killing a bunch of innocent patients and Western doctors. Thanks to people like you. Meanwhile they were on the phone calling home screaming that they were being bombed repeatedly and to please stop.
www.msf.org/kunduz-updated-death-toll-42-people-killed-us-airstrikes-kunduz-hospital
We were never under any serious threat during WW2. Hitler had already decided he had no intention of attacking us. The Japanese were the only ones who made that call, and they were never a real threat to the mainland. On the other hand... Hawaii was a stolen country that we took over against the will of the natives. Hawaii was not even a U. S. state at that time! It became a state in 1959. WW2 ended in 1945. Again, who are the terrorists?
There is no excuse for imprisoning U. S. citizens without just cause and stealing all of their property and denying them care! The fact that you just tried to justify that shows that you are no better than Nazis or the North Korean regime! YOU don't belong in a FREE country. So stupid and ignorant. XD
You CANNOT get Swiss citizenship if you only know English. You miss the whole point of everything. Such a waste of space and air. Everyone does not speak English, and Italian is rapidly declining. English has been increasing, that does not mean that I can use it to gain citizenship.
www.swissinfo.ch/.../2882966
At the end of the day, this is NOT a free world. As much as you are too dumb to comprehend this fact, I have laid out why WE ARE THE TERRORISTS and why even people living here are NOT FREE!
No, it's granted by Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution.
Congress shall have the power to "raise and support Armies," to "provide and maintain a Navy," and to "make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers," which the supreme court has decided includes the authority to conscript (read: draft) people into an army in times of war.
Of course recent developments as in the introduction of women into combat roles may make it considered that way as the first time they challenged it was during WW1.
Well, in those terms, something akin to WW2 would fit under that. I don't think Vietnam should have had a draft as our country wasn't really under threat.
Your initial answer was stronger. Your point about WWII as against Vietnam is confusing principle and expedience.
Once allowed - as you are right that it is - under the Constitution, it is then left to the public, through its elected representatives, to decide when conscription is warranted. That is a circumstantial judgment.
Article 1, Section 8 - and the Supreme Court rulings made pursuant to it - allows for conscription. It does not compel conscription.
Still, overall, an excellent answer. You know your stuff. My compliments.
@nightdrot I’d also point out that we’ve had laws before that were later found to be unconstitutional. The Jim Crow laws are one recent example.
True, but there precedents are not easily or often overturned and the courts have a long history of rulings on conscription, conscientious objection and so forth. These will not likely be changed. Indeed, it is hard to conceive of on what pretext they might be.
Further, as we do not have conscription at the moment, there is no standing to bring such a case before the courts. Were conscription to be introduced it would likely because the Congress decided that there was an urgent need and the courts are not likely going to question a political decision made in that context.
@nightdrot I would presume that the mandatory registration could go before the courts.
On what basis? How does it impact anyone's rights. At the risk of being obvious, draft registration has been in place since the late 1970s - this even after the tumult of the 60s. If grounds have not been found to challenge registration it is not likely to be anytime soon.
Besides, no harm can be shown - you cannot bring suit on a pretext of harm - and the courts again are not apt to challenge the mechanism by which a policy already found constitutional can be implemented. The courts are clear about willing the end without willing the means to the end.
@nightdrot on what basis does t violate your right against compelled labor? Or on what basis would it now go to the Supreme Court?
We were discussing registration and it was to that which I was referring. It would be hard - given our current all volunteer military - to show that registration causes harm. Without cause - and there currently is none - there is no standing to bring suit.
As to conscription generally, it is allowed - as I believe someone else mentioned, under Article I, Section 8. The courts having recognized the authority of the Congress to implement means pursuant to its constitutional powers.
Beyond that, under the law and the Constitution, you can still be compelled to take certain actions. (Small example: Mandatory evacuations in emergencies effectively compel you to surrender your property.) There is no blanket exemption to any citizen regarding conduct or the prohibition of same.
No right is absolute - even under the Constitution. About the only case I think might plausibly be made is the exemption of women from the draft. This MIGHT be seen as a violation of the equal protections clause.
No, Constitution addresses this: Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution.
Congress shall have the power to "raise and support Armies," to "provide and maintain a Navy," and to "make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers," which the supreme court has decided includes the authority to conscript people into an army in times of war.
True. The Constitution can be amended.
Opinion
30Opinion
i'm not supreme court justice but i would think it doesn't consitute involuntary servitude on the grounds that you do accept certain responsibilities as a citizen of this country. paying taxes, schooling up to a certain age, etc.
also the constitution allows for the government to amass an army
In my opinion it most definitely does. Does it really matter though? We do all kinds of horrible things in the name of necessity.
Most countries would fall or fail in most intensive wars unless they resort to a draft. It is something meant to be used in times of extreme war, deemed vital to survival of the country.
In many ways, military service can be or feel akin to imprisonment or forced servitude. Many people comfort themselves over the horrible things that happen to and around them by the knowledge they were choosing to help people in doing so.
It would be even worse when it is done through a draft.
People can't be trusted to stand up and fight when the times call for it though. When all of the people with morals go to war and die, what do you think is going to remain in society? The only thing left are criminal minds, the skittish and selfish, and the pacifists who wouldn't want to resist them.
The draft is there to prevent the number of bad intentioned people in society from outnumbering the good too much. And, in general, to keep the country from falling.
I mean I could see someone construe the thirteenth amendment in that way, I’d throw in that if the fourteenth amendment gives us equal protection then it’s kind bullshit to imply that it’s only men who should be subject to the draft. If you included women in the draft then public support for war would take a nosedive, so that’s really why you don’t see it happening.
Kind of*
"Servitude" may be the word you question but by definition it means to be completely subject to someONE more powerful. This is to limit indentured servitude (being owned until a debt is paid) to a specific person. As there is no single person running the country who owns you, the draft is legal by the 13th amendment.
On top of that, if the Selective Service did not exist and we didn't have enough personnel to defend ourselves in war, then there would be no 13th amendment and no United States. The draft exists for a reason.
American territorial culture in the south is weird. People (in general) want to sit on their property with a gun and defend their family. In reality it's much more efficient to defend their home by supporting the army in one of many roles including non-combat support roles. You don't have to hold a gun to load a truck with food or bullets.
I mean load the truck AND defend your property. Id rather live in an armed populace, where being unwilling to defend your property and loved ones yourself (rather than depend on government for everyday safety) is the ridiculed exception, not the norm. An armed citizenry is a deterrent to invasion (along with the regular military).
According to the United States Supreme Court the answer to your question is no. But people have in the past tried to make the argument that the draft was involuntary servitude prohibited by the 13th Amendment. But in the following case the Supreme Court said it wasn't:
Arver v US 245 US 366 {1918}
"[A]s we are unable to conceive upon what theory the exaction by government from the citizen of the performance of his supreme and noble duty of contributing to the defense of the rights and honor of the nation as the result of a war declared by the great representative body of the people can be said to be the imposition of involuntary servitude in violation of the prohibitions of the Thirteenth Amendment, we are constrained to the conclusion that the contention to that effect is refuted by its mere statement."
Doesn't that only give women the right to vote? I don't think exclusively drafting men is against that if that is what you're implying. UNLESS I am mixing up my ammendments. I did bad on the the constitution test.
Yeah the nineteenth is the one about womens suffrage. Thirteenth is the anti-slavery amendment.
@Mexicoman101 holy shit I'm an idiot.
Ah ok.
Well I don't know, because a draft only happens when we need more troop, and unfortunately I don't see our next major war being fought with soldiers...
Drafts are bad ideas and have been an anachronism for quite some time.
That said, I think you'd lose in court with this argument, especially with your suit being against Selective Service, which should be scrapped.
According to me, yes.
According to the courts, no.
The courts don't really give a good justification for it other than saying "That's not what it means".
Calling the militia was obviously intended from the start, but that was supposed to be a temporary stopgap measure until the real military arrived. It was not intended to be a full time replacement for the standing army, or to be sent overseas when there was no direct internal threat.
It does and doesn't.
It does because it exactly matches the definition of slave labor.
And it doesn't, because the thirteenth amendment was well aware of the fact so they added that part about "yeeeah... slavery that benefits us is not going to count as slavery, mkay?".
No, infact I would argue it fits perfectly with the spirit of the American Ideal of the Citizen Solider
Citizen Soldier.
The Minutemen and such.
Originally the U. S had no real Standing Army of any size.
Immediately after the civil war we cut down from a million soldiers to 20,000.
The idea being that like the minutemen of old, the old idea was that Americans are Citizens first and Soldiers only when needed.
Many of the founders opposed a standing army, they believed that in times of peace, it should be disbanded.
@Scarecrow13 I don’t disagree with that
Yes actually they were.
The early militia evolved out of the town militia every able bodied man in New England was required to own a musket and to participate.
The oldest Army Units today date back to this.
There are a couple of Massachusetts National Guard Units who served first England, then when it turned into Great Britain. They served that. Then the continental congress which of course was the U. S
But these Men were citizens first and foremost.
Only soldiers in times of war
Yes, because its involuntary servitude that's not punishment for committing a crime.
The government is supposed to serve the people. If the people don't support a war enough to volunteer to fight it, then the government shouldn't fight it.
@Catacious that's one reason for the second amendment. The idea being that citizens come together to defend the homeland.
@Sixgun77 that's the EXACT reason for the second amendment. Nobody wanted the Civil War, but they fought.
Not one nation nor any alliance of nations on earth could possibly invade the US and not be obliterated, and it's because an armed populace of 300+ million, in addition to our regulars, cannot be defeated. For perspective, our active military is only 1.5 million, with another 1.5 in reserve, plus 800,000 law enforcement. The chinese have well over 20 million. They could float over here and have a chance against the military, but an armed populace would mow them down in short order
With only 3% of the populace actively fighting, the colonies won against the most powerful military the world had ever seen up to that point. All because the people refused to allow the Brits to ban weapons of war from personal ownership. Without that one factor, the British would still be a worldwide Empire.
Not really because they also don’t draft the deaf population. Or quadriplegics. Its a law that says we can have you IF the military wants you. The military only wanted men because of their superior physical capabilities.
Sexist
@BurgerLover Fine, if that’s what you call sexist then I’m sexist. Congrats on your victory. 🙄
why only men?
why dont women get drafted?
sexist
@BurgerLove I didn’t exclude them the military did. They don’t want women who don’t live up to as high a standard. Not my fault. If you really want to know how I feel about the draft: I think the whole thing should be illegal. You shouldn’t be able to force people to join against their will. But that wasn’t the question.
And I am sexist. By the definition that most people use today, I would be called a sexist. I don’t think I’m being impractical about my beliefs or zealously trying to force them on others but most would call me sexist. The definition of the word is so decayed that it’s not insulting. I do believe that men and women are different and have different interests and skills than eachother. Just that’ll get me the title “sexist.” And if that is sexist then fine, I guess I am. You can’t insult someone by calling them what they are. You can only insult them by calling them what they’re not. You really think Hitler would have cared if you called him a Nazi? I think not.
It sure seems to, but I need to read up on the authors of the agreement to know what it's actual intent is.
I also need to find out if the draft fits the legal definition of involuntary servitude. If it doesn't, then we need to see how that came about, and why.
The draft does not in any way, shape or form fit the definition of involuntary servitude. To say otherwise is a specious argument. Article I section 8 gives Congress the authority to raise and support armies and a Navy. The 1918 Arver SCOTUS decision reaffirmed this. A lot of folks read involuntary servitude as anything the government makes one do that one does not want to do. By that rationale jury duty would be involuntary servitude. Jury duty has a sunset clause in that service ends with the trial or adjournment of a grand jury (whichever one has been called to serve). Similarly, the Constitution limits fiscal appropriation to two years, which is why those who were drafted for the Korean and Vietnam conflicts had a two-year limit on compulsory service. Those who were drafted in World Wars I and II served for the duration of the war. When the wars ended, so did their service obligation. If one was drafted indefinitely then the involuntary servitude argument would have merit.
Forced military service certainly seems like involuntary servitude
Section 2 is most important: Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
No, Soldiers get paid, slaves dont, On that same token though the draft should exist for both sexes or not at all. though most feminsts and women will disagree with that because they want equality without responsibility.
13th Amendment
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
Nope
No, but even if it did without a strong military there wouldn't be a Constitution to worry about anymore anyways.
Not very often. But it isn't used very often.
While certain legal decisions would disagree with me, I don't see how it couldn't be classified as involuntary servitude. That is exactly what it is. Even if you are getting paid that doesn't change it as even some slaves got paid.
yeah but who cares for the constitution anyway? i mean having weapons for recreational purposes is against the second amendmend but still everyone owns weapons ignoring what the law says.
If you read things that the framers wrote and said you'd know that there's no reason not to have firearms for recreational purposes.
"As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprize, and independance to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks."
- Thomas Jefferson
no because of the 5th and 14th Amendment and Article II
It's sexist because its only for men
I don't care what anyone's justifications are, it's involuntary servitude.
Being drafted is even worse than slavery, since you're putting your life on the line. It's better to just flee the country.
It does violate the wording, but politicians don't care. More importantly it violates the intent of government, making it the master instead of the protector.
No. It doesn't. Slaves were not being payed money for their forced labor. Soldiers as someone already pointed out are paid for their labor.
😂😂
People in a draft scenario would be involuntarily serving the nation with death as a likely outcome. The 13th isn’t just against slavery, it’s also about involuntary servitude as is pointed out quite plainly. The argument being that Mcdonalds can’t pick you up off the street and force you to work for them even if they’re paying you.
Yes and I'm glad they got rid of the draft I hope it's never brought back
But we still have selctive service, which leaves the door open for it.
@Scarecrow13 Yeah I know that's why I'm saying I hope that's why it's never brought back
No. Soldiers get paid. Slaves don't.
Some slaves did get paid, were they any less of a slave?
@Scarecrow13 they were kept alive with food and housing. They weren't getting paid.
Some got paid in actual money, that's how they were able to save up to eventually guy their freedom. They were often given what amounted to an "allowance", for specific services.
https://www.historyextra.com/period/slave-labour/
@Scarecrow13 that too
Why only men should be drafted?
Why not women?
@Scarecrow13 I think you're thinking of Roman slaves, not African slaves.
Did you see my source? It talks about African slaves in America. But yes even if it just was Roman slaves, does that change the point?
@Scarecrow13 being a soldier is a salaried job. Not the same as being given a few coins by your owner.
And why only men
Why not women
Israel drafts both.
If you interpret it literally, yes
Yes it does, it's involuntary servitude.
No. See Section 8 of Article 1.
what are you reading and smoking?
Thirteenth amendment is about slavery
I'm lucky to live in Canada no drafts
What is the 13th amendment?
no it doesn't they get paid
what's the 13th amendment? refresh our memories.
There is no draft.
It depends on what country you are in. In America, which is what is being referenced here, yes. there is a draft. All men in America must sign up for the Draft at 18 years old.
If the United States declares a high state of emergency or war, then the US Armed forces could easily double, quadruple, or more in terms of size, in less than the span of a year.
The industrial and R&D in the US and US companies can still easily shift from general global, economic, and green energy concerns it currently focuses on and turn into a survival and military/weapon industry like in the World War era.
Once that transition was finished, they would then draft more people since they would have the basis to support it.
Despite the US having a smaller population than some other countries, due to its large industrial power and resources, a rather small population could support a rather large Military with a bit of effort.
Are you dumb or trolling? I'm not talking about aliens or anything here.
These are facts, policies you can find in written down in modern law. Figures that are regularly updated and posted publically by the government.
Me and every other man over 18 files paperwork for this in our country. Precedents have been established before and drafting has occurred multiple times in history, and not even very long ago.
Your the one wearing a tin foil hat. What your saying is akin to saying the earth is flat. Anyone can easily find out the truth of the matter and prove it for themselves with minimal effort.
All it takes is setting a foot outside your front door.
@Dause there has been no draft in the United States since 1973, although the requirement to register with the Selective Service for men between 18-26 remains in force. In Desert Shield/Desert Storm some who were on active duty were required to remain in service beyond their scheduled separate under Stop Loss, but that was only a matter of months. The US military has been able to meet its manpower needs without conscription for over 45 years now.
@LuvMeSomeBoys exactly!
45 years is not long ago from a national perspective. My father was around (albeit as a a child) when my grandfather joined the Army during the previous draft time.
The Selective Service System serves as the foundation for the draft, which can still legally be called on at any time. The system of the Draft exists but is not currently being used in the recruitment process.
If you are trying to argue that there will not be another war in our lifetime big enough to warrant a draft, feel free to speculate as you wish.
If you are saying the System of the Draft does not still exist, or that it was not used in the past, as the original comment seemed to imply, that is completely invalid. Unless I am wrong in my interpretation here, in that case, please elaborate.
Of course not, because military trucks could drive circles through that "logic" of yours.
And you probably actually think your logic is sound, and that the remainder of what you meant should be obvious.
Except it is not, your logic is deeply flawed from the foundation, and probably based off hearsay. Or at the very least you have stated your thoughts so poorly that it looks like it is.
This is why proper adults include a thesis and conclusion when writing papers and arguments. If you aren't grown enough to know how to fully Express yourself, how do you expect to grow further from the discussion or feedback.
My statements are pure facts, not a research paper or exercise in logic. Your snarky diatribe makes it clear you don’t know enough about the subject matter to even discuss it intelligently.
The issue is, if you throw out facts without any logic like you did, it means you are lacking intelligence in general. So even after examining the materials, you are still just as clueless about what their meaning is after the fact.
Whereas others more experienced will read them, consider their implications, and then form thoughts on them.
Meaning, if you normally act that way, you simply lack the capability to discuss anything logically. I have both read up on the materials and actually stopped and thought about them, and discussed this matter with others before.
You are simply being an airhead, trying too hard to defend yourself instead of taking a step back and actually thinking. And you can't even defend yourself as you have no grounds on which to do so, except lashing out. Have a nice day madam.
@SarahsSummer was right.
Voted b
Nope.
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