male-dominated industries = men dominate those industries because no women came along who were competent AND determined enough to take those top spots. Why do you think more feminists aren't calling for "diversity quotas" on construction sites? Coz almost ZERO women wanna lug bricks around or mix cement for a living. But of course they insist on 50/50 male/female hiring policies in all the cushy C-Suite executive positions. Industry is for the industrious, if you wanna be at the top, you gotta be the most industrious of them all. And most women just don't possess that kind of drive to that level of success. And that's fine. Most men don't either, and that's okay too. Only the top 0.000001% of the general population has that level of industriousness and sheer grit/commitment to succeed at such a high level. And out of that 0.000001%, there might be two or three or five women for every hundred men. And even those women may find priorities changing once perimenopause starts creeping up throughout their late 30s/ early 40s.
You seem uneducated on the subject and kind of a smartypants. You don't even try to put yourself in women's shoes. You lack of empathy. That's bad.
gender stereotypes = some are outdated, but guess what, WE ALREADY STOPPED USING THE OUTDATED ONES. Last time I heard someone say "you throw like a girl", for example, was at least 15 years ago, and that was just schoolboy talk in the 90s. No serious, grown-ass adult male is gonna go around spewing 1950s stereotypes about women, unless as an ironic self-aware joke ABOUT stereotypes. Who knows maybe some women have experiences of being stereotyped by the men around them, and took offense to that. But it still doesn't prove existence of a so-called patriarchy, which by definition must be constant and all-encompassing throughout every strata of the civilised world in which we live. Besides, some stereotypes are based in truth, albeit exaggerated as truth permeates through the filter of culture. "women are chattier than men" is a stereotype because it's actually the truth, when aggregated across the general population. Women have more brain wiring dedicated to conversation, and men have more brain wiring devoted to taking apart and repairing gismos and toys and treehouses and busted sinks. This is the foundation of our neurobiology, it's only through memetic transference into the popular culture that these foundations become expressed as stereotypes (often coinciding with humour, which acts as a secondary filter of cultural beliefs).
--shaming language = I agree, shaming is bad when it's inappropriate to the situation. If a girl wears skimpy clothes, I'm not gonna shame her, its none of my business. But if it's my 15 year old daughter dressing like a literal street whore to go out with her friends, you better believe I'm gonna give her a piece of my mind and make her go back and change. I'm also not sure which direction the "shaming" is allegedly coming from. Coz on one hand feminists say men are pigs for sexualising women. But then they organise literal "slut walks" where they parade around naked and reaffirm their commitment to nihilistic promiscuity. So which way round is it gonna be? I'm not gonna shame your lifestyle choices either way, but y'all should at least be consistent in what deserves shame and what's beyond reproach. It's a contradiction, which makes sense coz feminists are constantly changing the rules to suit whatever fits the current narrative.
negative female portrayals = oh yeah, coz we NEVER had strong female characters back in the 80s and 90s. /shonestly, the "solution" to this "patriarchal oppression" in our media entertainment like TV and film is MORE damaging to women than the supposed "problem". Every feminist-led film in the last five years has starred literally the most boring, predictable, one-dimensional, overpowered female leads I've ever had to slog through viewing. They take beloved properties like Ghostbusters, Star Wars, and even properties that were ALREADY female-led like charlies angels... and they run those IPs into the ground, with cringey dialogue that characterises all the men as useless, sexist, weak, bumbling, narcissistic morons and villains. And all the women are flawless mary sues whose only character trait is that they're "empowered". YAWN.
"You seem uneducated on the subject and kind of a smartypants. You don't even try to put yourself in women's shoes. You lack of empathy. That's bad." Please explain to me the depths of my miseducation, then. And I can appreciate that, yes, maybe the tone of my writing in this instance is a tad more oppositional than I'd usually be. None of this is aimed at you personally, I'm directing my take at the ideology which produces these beliefs about "patriarchal tyranny" as a supposed cornerstone of society. I'm not a fan of that ideology, so I have a particular way of disagreeing with what I consider its more outlandish presuppositions.
as to the matter of empathy, I have plenty of it for the women in my life, and the women I come into contact with throughout the days. What I don't have empathy for is rancid ideologies that fundamentally attack men and lay all sorts of sins at our feet, just because some other men we've never met did mean things to some women. I don't think this ideology is good for WOMEN, I don't think modern fourth wave feminism is good for women, in fact I see more women being attacked by feminists for going against the "party lines" than my fellow men. Just look into the catastrophe of what happened with Lindsay Shepard, or countless other women who've had their credibility attacked and reputations destroyed, just because they dared to suggest that "MAAAAYBEE we shouldn't demonise men for just existing".
Actually, he seems far more educated on this topic than you are. As for what you call his "lack of empathy," it's difficult to be empathetic to a female who is so obtuse on this topic.
@coffeewithcream what's interesting is that by the feminist logic, "empathy" seems to be a one way street only. Where's the empathy from feminists when fathers are stripped of the right to raise their kids? or when they're left destitute from a brutal divorce? or when young men slash their wrists open because they've been so thoroughly ignored by educators, family members, and other authority figures all in the name of "protecting females first"? The new wave feminists only seem to want empathy when its conducive to their own selfish goals. When feminism stops treating men with antipathy, then I'll start treating them with empathy.Now, with fairness to the author of this post, it's not like you put across your own views on the subject, so your beliefs on these issues may be very different to the more diabolical extremes I'm presenting here. But the problem is that "normal" feminists are either silent, or shut down debate altogether when the reality of those extreme feminists is presented. The extreme is becoming more and more normalised, just because "normal" feminists want to believe "that's not true feminism, they don't represent us". Except they do represent you, they're just taking your current beliefs to their inevitable endpoint when treated as literal truths, rather than abstract concepts to discuss and debate openly. I can accept the pseudo-existence of a patriarchal structure of society in an abstracted, intellectualised form. It does appear at a glance that powerful men held a lot of sway throughout history. So if you wanna lump that observation under a common umbrella term, then "patriarchy" might be the easiest term that comes to mind, and will be recognised in a public forum of debate. If that term makes it easier to debate the topic of "powerful men becoming unhinged with their power and hurting women with it", then I'm all for that.
But feminists don't just believe that as an abstraction, they're literally pushing the notion that society *IS* a patriarchy from the roots up, and that therefore all men are complicit in the power that patriarchy allegedly bestows on them by birthright. Which is ridiculous, as any man who's worked hard manual labour his whole life would have some pretty select words about some feminist accusing him of being part of such a power structure. Or a single father who's the constant topic of scorn and derision by the mothers of his kid's classmates, who judge him as being an oppressive presence to their kids for the "crime" of just BEING a single father. Meanwhile the single mother pisses away his alimony checks while fucking her new lover in the father's OWN HOUSE, which was compensated to her in divorce courts, presumably as a "penance" for the "crime" of being the male counterpart of a divorce proceeding. Or the millions of men working corporate jobs who can't so much as have a private conversation with a woman without getting permission from HR and recorded timestamps of exactly what was discussed, just in case she decides "I don't like the way he looked at me" and destroys his career with baseless accusations of wrongdoing. Where's the empathy for these men, I wonder? Oh right, they don't deserve any, coz they all benefit from the "patriarchy".
and sorry for the essay, but if OP does some education of her own from the other side of the fence on this issue, I'm sure you'll find that just coz your feminist ideology glitters, doesn't mean it's gold.
I'm just tired of seeing the same tired narrative thrown around every time I log online, or speak to the men who are negatively affected by this narrative. It pisses me off frankly that nobody out there is defending US, it's all about "protecting the female" no matter what narrative this requires to be foisted onto innocent men. So that's why my empathy is running dry on the subject right now. But if you look at some of my other posts, you'll see I've actually engaged with feminists on this site and tried to better understand what drives them, and what they want, and where they feel misunderstood. But when the myths around "patriarchy" and "toxic masculinity" run so deep throughout the feminist narrative, I can't help but feel like the well-intentioned ones are being misled onto a path that ultimately serves the very extremists they claim to dissociate from.
@OP, if you will forgive my terribly long wall of text, I'd actually be very interested to hear your take on any of the issues raised. I want to know YOUR views, the rest is just soundbites I've heard before. What are your personal beliefs about (so-called) patriarchy, feminism, and how it all intersects with men's rights? Do you believe we can be equals in society without uprooting all the social structures that got us to where we are? Or do you want a cultural revolution that sees men "kicked off the throne" for women to rule instead? What do you think of the duties of raising a family-- where does the father's patriarchal presence and the mother's matriarchal presence fit into those duties? I know I'm throwing a lot at you here in all these comments, but I'm really just trying to stimulate a conversation that isn't just a rehash of the standard feminist bullet points. I'd happily consider your personal views with an open mind, if you'll share some of them with us today.
lack of empathy? when was the last time you were told to woman up? it's not even a phrase
You lack the ability to reason. That is worse.
Uh, not you, The asker.
… now, would that include the group called feminism?
The correct use of feminism is demanding the same rights for females as males.Patriarchy is just favouring men in general.Actually the correct term is matriarchy not feminism.
and the day i see self-identified feminists engaging in all their activism using said little definition of yours in practice as opposed to just on paper, is the day i'll make the distinction
@David_Kek mehFeminism is very much needed.You have some issues with them that's your problem if you can't see the ones doing some good.I don't live in the states, I live in the middle east and feminism is very much needed here.
Lol I can have a neutral answer and some guys are still stupid enough to downvote, so stupid 🤦🏿♀️
Sweetheart, i don't care if you live in Saudi Arabia, your beliefs in "the patriarchy", do not reflect reality. Whatever class position you have, a man in your exact same class objectively is more likely to end up in poverty, being a victim of a violent crime, and/or murdered. If that's a patrachy, then it's not a very good one.For every legal right you complain about a man having they you don't, the fact it he also has an additional legal responsibility that you don't have either. Your feminism is not based in reality, and has no interest at all in giving women men's responsibilities, only their rights.Is there room is talk about gender issues and renegotiate gender roles? Yeah. This there room to do that while you start off using man hating lies, and supremacy? No. Until you actually start taking these things seriously, people like me will never take you seriously. Deal with it.
@David_Kek you make absolutely no sense at all.And I don't care if you take me srsly really. What do you mean a man of my class has more chances to be poor, murdered or subject to violence.It's definitely not true lol, if anything females in under developed countries are the poorest because they are abandoned sometimes with their kids.Or they never had the chance for a proper education to be able to manage for themselves. Or are given less opportunity to work, or they can work in restricted fields.Females are also more subject of abuse.
Also who ever said we don't want the same responsibilities?I sometimes feel like you throw false claims I never stated and then criticise it.I never said anthng about that, you want to discuss it then bring it up instead of assuming "sweetheart ".I definitely agree that both genders should be able to be self sustainable people.And not have the woman always dependent on her husband for everything and every decision.
And did I say I hate guys?I only stated I hate any extreme movement against a specific gender.It can be females attacking guys or vis versa.I gave a very neutral answer, I have no idea where the bitterness comes from but I feel you're having a solo conversation with yourself. I actually do think that gender roles should be redefined because society is evolving. I honestly have 0 respect for people who don't try to listen and reason before attacking the other person with false lies and accusations. I also don't like people who are too narrow minded And see only one reality that is their own and everyone who proposes another variation is stupid.Finally don't call me sweetheart, it's condescending.
I'm not even gonna bother arguing with you. If you are that ideologically blind that you can't accept the objective fact that men and boys are by a wide margin the majority of the homeless, victims of violent crime, and those murdered in every society on the planet or in history without exception, then you're too far gone. Only someone who is as brainwashed as you, can honestly sit there and think that believing that men as a group psychopathically Oppress their own wives, mothers and daughters as chattel and pretty much have done since forever, is anything other dehumanizing, misandry. Have a nice day, sweetheart.
@David_Kek oh please🤦🏿♀️Good riddance hun.
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It is not just look at Saudi Arabia and Russia
@NorthwestRider They're not Patriarchies, they don't exist and never have. And if you think they are, then son, you're in for a big surprise when life teaches you who really has the power in male hierarchies.
There is no such thing as equality
Outstanding answer 😊
the industry isn't dominated by men cause men supress women. men supress everyone equally, cause there's a tough competition for ceo positions. women tend to not want to have those tough competitions.women also tend to be more agreeable and therefore have less success in wage negotiations.womens beauty standards are way less unrealistic than that of men. just compare freaking Wonderwoman to He-Man is "being slender" really more "unrealistic"?gender stereotypes. oh you mean those stereotypes that make women win sexual offense cases without evidence? the stereotypes that gives them custody by default and makes men pay alimony? the stereotypes that make it such that women always are punished less severe in any court case than men?the abuse and rape culture that men are equally victim of, just more abuse than rape and with women it's more rape than abuse?there's so much nonsense in those claims abiut patriarchy.
Just like you, disgusting and should vanish!
It's very convenient for guys to say this. Clever people though, know that this is not true and they will continue to fight against it.
Then prove me wrong
State your case, then, why you believe it does exist. You haven't done that. You've merely posted posters and tired slogans.
@coffeewithcream it doesn't exist in the states and some European countries but it is very prevalent in others, such as countries in Asia, Middle East, Africa...
@archiz well, we can see that. But what she meant is that it's still prevalent here in the West
She didn't specify in her question.
Then she should have no problem stating her case. Which she didn't. And hasn't.
@coffeewithcream hmmm?You don't think there are patriarchal societies outside of the U. S?
@archiz That's not the issue. The issue is whatever is stated in the question for the thread.
@coffeewithcream there is really no case to be stated though.She just though what do we think of patriarchy in general.Reasonable answer is to be against it.Like if someone asks what do you think about matriarchy or feminazi.The opinion poster said it doesn't exist which is completely false.Americans tend to forget that there is a whole world "outside" of the U. S with different systems, customs and mentalities.
She just asked**
@archiz Wrong. If an item doesn't exist then all discussions are moot. If one states I believe a patriarchy exists for this reason, that's a reasonable discussion point.
@coffeewithcream what wrong?It does exist period.You are the one who assumed she was talking about the states although it's an anonymous user who brought up the topic generally. For instance, if someone argues are you against dictatorship. I am sure most people would have answered yes without feeling attacked.The only reason there is so much negativity in the replies is because the guys feel personally attacked which is understandable.
@archiz I assumed nothing. I'm waiting for her to expand on her question. You've interpreted your issue onto her question. I'm not biting. I'm going with the original question, which really expressed sweet fuck all.
@coffeewithcream yea it's more the impression I got from all the answers, the current opinion poster and you asking for cases like it's nonexistent. All I am saying, this system is still very common and I stated some examples/cases of where you can find it.I do agree though that in the states there is no such thing and other developed countries too.
Good answer 😊
@TonyMetal_1986 Thank you.