Income tax should be abolished. Change my mind?

Question

WindAtMyBack · Accepted Answer

The strongest argument for not abolishing income tax is the law of unintended consequences. It would be too drastic of a change to predict the outcome.

In the US, there are states with no income tax and they do just fine. Governments will get their money one way or another. So it's just a question of how. Even though I've lived and worked in two of them, I don't know enough about those states to know how they get their revenue. I assume it's largely sales tax and property tax.

One side effect of abolishing the income tax is that the government loses control of the money. Tax deductions are how the government controls money that is not theirs. It's how the government gets people or corporations to do things they would not otherwise do. This amounts to a hidden government budget, since decreased revenue is the same as increased spending on the bottom line.

Tax deductions are also a very efficient way to fund programs. If a program costs 1 million dollars, either the government can spend the 1 mil, or they can give someone a 20% tax deduction to spend it themselves. So they essentially get the same program for 20% of the cost.

If the income tax were abolished, the government would lose control of all that private money, and the programs it funds.

There are thousands of taxes out there. People don't even think about most of them. Some are better than others. I prefer taxes for using something. Sales tax are a use tax. If you use it you pay the tax. Gasoline and FET on tires are also use taxes. The more you drive, the more taxes you pay for roads. Some of the worst taxes are income tax and property tax.

Very often governments spread the taxes around, so they are not as apparent. They also like to do taxes that not many people will complain about. You can put a $20+ per night tax on motel rooms and get by with it. The people living in that jurisdiction aren't the ones paying it. The people paying it aren't voting in that district. They can get by with "sin taxes" also, because the people paying them get ostracized if they speak out against it.

Bottom line is that there is a lot of politics, control and public acceptance involved, just as much or more than the actual dollar amounts. In theory the income tax could be abolished. But there WOULD be unintended consequences.

Levin · Accepted Answer

That's all well and good but overly simplistic.

Society needs to care somewhat for it's citizens, and a totally crumbling society isn't in your *self* interests since crime, violence and robbery will just skyrocket.

We have something of a broken and bloated welfare system in the UK. The most frustrating thing to me is that if you're on benefits you can often 'earn' more than people in work. Especially if you're female/have kids. My proposition would be this. By all means, be on benefits, but you can't get more benefits than being in work. So if the min wage earns you say £11000 per year after tax here, then the maximum benefits you should earn should be 10500 or less. Creates the right kind of incentives since there's always going to be people out of work and no one wants destitution. But it's not fair that people in work aren't any more well off, and often less so, than people on benefits. People in work often can't afford their own homes or to have children. Whereas situations like the one below arise:

I see quite a few benefit letters from people at work, and I often see the breakdown of benefits for '5 of your 6 kids'. They will be on £2000 per month which is like a lower level professional's salary here after tax. It's like a salary of £30000 per year which is actually pretty decent where I live given costs of living. It would probably put you in the 90 percentile, but I'm just estimating on that.

90sVibe · Accepted Answer

I think that eliminating income taxes both federally and by states would be a positive thing in the American economy. Studies show that when people have lower taxes the more productive Americans become financially and stimulate not just the U. S. economy but help the entire world. Studies have also shown that a decrease in homelessness, unemployment, and poverty happens when people are able to keep more of their income earned money. This is my reasoning for why I'm in favor of that. Many government funded programs would need to be cut and done away with but I don't believe that would necessarily be a bad thing. Many studies have also shown that although programs such as welfare have been beneficial to those in need, it has been greatly abused and has led to a correlation of broken families, poverty, crime, and high mortality rates. These studies I've read have been from independent sources and major universities from America, Canada, and the UK. I believe there needs to be a balance between government funded programs and citizen funded programs. Studies amazingly show that programs and organizations that are privately funded are typically more successful than government ones do long as they keep to their pre establish conditions and policies. People believe that the government should have more power in this area because they would be more accountable but sadly they couldn't be more wrong. Private organizations are held to a higher standard of accountability than the government itself in most programs.

I think that sales tax as well as many others should stay in place because they generate more revenue from beyond just American citizens and ensures more people pay a fair tax on goods. But I don't think that both income and sales are needed. It's almost like punishing those who work hard for a living and punish them even more for having higher earnings. There are MANY other taxes in the U. S. that are more than capable of paying for the necessities.

I also think that the inheritance tax should be completely abolished.

Smoke-n-Growls · Accepted Answer

Nope. Income tax needs to stay put. And corporate taxes need to be raised, as do gains taxes on richer investors.

Taxation is a vital part of supporting government services. No tax = no programs. The government does not exist in a financial vaccum.

Progress requires money. As a citizen, I'm happy I only have to pitch in a little alongside my fellows to help fund programs that help myself, my neighbours, and my community.

NaultD · Answer

Welfare played a role in ending children labor. Go look at Lewis Hine photography amazing stuff. Imagine today an 8 year old boy miner with mangled hands and one finger left. A 5 year old girl in a clam farm with a deadly infection from a cut. Where an experience grown man can't find ANY work because 5 children are cheaper labor.

That is the era where welfare was born in. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Tax plays a role in the cycle of a healthy work life cycle. Have the children go to school. So of age people have more avaliable beginners work. Then social security for people to retire, so there's more available higher end work on the later side of the cycle.

It's early depression laws that was quintessential for the time but quickly outdated by boomers. I'm not saying it needs to be gone but updated. If you have a mortgage and the homeless percentage increases because of less safety nets, your home becomes less valuable and you can't sell for anything. So there is eminence value with less people struggling just getting by in most ways. So it's an investment nonetheless.

RACSKC0B · Answer

Im not reading all of the replies, sorry. I did read (skimmed, at best) I don't know about half of them, though.
I saw plenty of replies that mentioned some services, and nfrastructure that are pretty obvious.
I would add:
Police
Fire
Water
Sewer
Trash
I know they're local services, but all recieve federal funding.
Still not going to convince you with that I'm sure, so how about:
Every branch of the Military
Electricity
Still nothing?
OK
WWW
Yeah, the internet.
Both nationally, and globally.
Which these days also includes telco as well.

Anyways, to answer your question, ... No, no I wouldn't change your mind. Or even try.
While I totally agree with you, the problem is (as everyone else pointed out already) how do you fund everything that everyone depends on now?
Never mind welfare, explain how we fund the armed services, without income tax?
How about instead of risking everything, and starting from scratch. What if we just fixed the tax law, that we have. Not in retarded lawyer double talk, but in plain English, Like laws are supposed to be written.

jgokgotit · Answer

I agree to an extent. I believe income tax should be lowered but welfare should be eliminated. Taxes are needed because everyone needs roads, schools, military/police protection, etc. yet they do not want to be the ones to fund these efforts. We need taxes to fund necessary function, but that should be all that taxes pay for. I do not believe in using taxes to pay for high Congress's salaries. Being a Congressional Leader should be a part time thing and they have regular jobs the rest of the time. Being in Congress should be treated like jury duty with maybe a little bit more pay. This would force Congress to understand the average person. Taxes only for vital services and eliminate welfare.

JackSmy · Answer

I don't agree.
Also, my experience, on this site, is when someone says "Change my mind" they are already committed, and can not be 'changed', and I choose:
"Never argue with idiots!! They drag you down to their level, and with, from experience!"
I couldn't care less, what you think or believe, because we are not friends, and I don't know you, and you don't matter to me! Sorry! I wish you well, though! :)
No offense intended, and that is an honest quote. I guess if you reply, and get angry, it proves that the quote applies to you? I hope not. . .

jshm2 · Answer

You clearly don't have much of a mind to change.

Income tax is payable in varying amounts by everyone. if you want to pay less, then work the system better. Hence it's a tax that is reduced, the more productive you are.

Welfare too is something everyone gets. Corporate welfare comes in grants, cost-plus government contracts and tax breaks. Where the less well off get stamps and money they can only spend in the country, and not squirrel away into offshore accounts. It's how a capitalist economy functions.

BCRanger10 · Answer

I'd add more but I can only add two...

wankiam · Answer

im more interested in corporate taxation at this point as the automated age is coming plus we really need to explore ubi more thoroughly or no one will be paying tax but at the same time no one but corporate overlords will be creating a living for just themselves

HungLikeAHorsefly · Answer

Income tax is the fine you pay for sitting on your ass while other people make money for you.

Unless, of course, you aren't rich. In which case it's a fine you pay for the opportunity to make money for some rich dickhead who just sits on his ass doing nothing.

jakerson181 · Answer

I always love these "change my mind" questions. LOL. Why should people waste their valuable time trying to talk you off an extreme position. It's not going to be abolished regardless of what your opinion is so really, think what you want. Nobody cares.

Pasiton5 · Answer

Income tax is just another stream for governments to flush more of our hard earned money down the drain waste, corruption and greed that's your tax dollars at worki agree with you but it will be replaced by a flat tax can't win for lose what we need to ask ourselves is why do we need governments and they do is cause wars and all the problems we are facing,

normalice · Answer

It is already abolished. All you have to do is go live in a cave or something. And just like that all handouts you get that other people paid for (roads, internet..) are forfeit so you can feel good about not feeding brown kids or whatever.

Anyway, the amount of tax you pay is peanuts next to the amount of money your employer steals from you to bribe politicians to tax you instead of them..

Liam_Hayden · Answer

I agree. The United States did not have a federal income tax till 1913, so that means the Founders did not support it and the nation survived for over half of the time it has existed without one. I will go one further.

linds34 · Answer

If there weren't any taxes, at the end of your driveway there would be a field or a forest instead of a road.

Drumlin2001 · Answer

Where do you expect the government to get the funds for military, infrustructure investment? Taxes are a necassary thing.
State assistance for the unemployed should be a short term crux before people get back to work. People who abuse the system should be pushed back towards working, usually plenty of state jobs that need doing. Not to say that all income taxes should be scrapped.

LivingExample · Answer

One thing I never do is try to change people’s mind, but if you received a Stimulus Payment that money came from Income Tax. The money people get on disability comes from Income Tax too. Income Tax is where the Government’s money comes from. The money they send to help people affected by tornados and hurricanes come from Income Tax.

hellacray · Answer

Lol wtf?

How are we going to fund things like libraries, firefighters, police, and schools?

While it would be nice to not have to pay taxes, but just think about all things out there that's being funded besides people mooching off the government.

If you want to abolish welfare or lower taxes that's a different story. Abolishing taxes in my opinion is stupid.

Agape93 · Answer

Nonsense. I think it needs to be shifted to the biggest earners; major corporate leeches, stock brokers, hedge fund managers, politicians and so on. Let normal people pay little to nothing while they shoulder the burden. They can afford it.

michael1469 · Answer

So you dont need say... your kids to go to school to be all they can be? Well hell, we dont need roads so our police and fire protection get to us, let alone military. Every citizen should have health insurance, i am going you dont need to go to a national or even state park anytime soon either. .. let me guess you dont need retirement either...

Anonymous · Answer

You owe your country for giving you the opportunity to have an income at all, as the business you work for wouldn't exist otherwise. Also, the nation just needs money, in general. So if you didn't have an income tax, you would have an equal or greater tax under a different name for another arbitrary reason.

darkcloud1945 · Answer

I am just wondering where the trillions of dollars are going to come from to pay for free medical free school free housing free money. There is not enough money in the world to pay for all this and pay no income tax. Would love for someone to tell how this would work.

007kingifrit · Answer

i'm all for cutting wellfare but the truth is you should blame that, not talk about cutting the income tax (unless you are running for office then you should keep doing what your'e doing)

we need taxes for the roads military and incentivizing certain kinds of industries

Ad_Quid_Orator · Answer

Welfare: the social safety net that encourages people to spend money and become entrepreneurs that encourages economic growth that translates into a way that benefits the population; growth that allowed you to be so productive in the first place:

Income tax should be abolished. Change my mind?

You want to benefit from social programs, you pay into them; anything else is entitlement.

Anonymous · Answer

Well, as Bernie said

SexyAshh · Answer

You must be a fellow libertarian. Yes i agree.

AmeerX · Answer

There should be one tax either direct or indirect. This system of large number of taxes is wrong.
And taxes should be not more than 5-10 % of total consumption or production.
Slab taxe rates make it good for people to cheat the system

Alyssa11 · Answer

I think some people need it, whether it be mental or physical problems and inabilities. I also think the government is doing a decent job filtering who receives it.

JackofSpades · Answer

I stole this meme.

triff · Answer

The income tax provides the much needed funds to keep libraries Goverment services from mowing lawns to to policing the neighbour hood Schools The money is not a luxury its how the country survives

cutiepiechub · Answer

fuck income taxes, I work hard at a crappy minimum wage and lose at least 200 dollars every 2 weeks when I get my paycheck.

blackrose2019 · Answer

You must be rich. The poor work their ass the off. We want to claim that money year round and save it if possible

DaMack999 · Answer

I agree it's a tax grab by the government on the majority of people. Most 1% don't pay any Tax. People like Walmart, Apple, Google don't pay any tax. While small fish guy making 50 to 250,000 a year gets hammered.

N192K001 · Answer

True. The system should be replaced with 1, all-inclusive, more-honest sales-tax on all goods & services.

Madmegalomaniac · Answer

The poor (lower class) general have far too many responsibilities than what's possible for them to handle. Combined with the fact that wealth is easier to attain the more wealth you have, and welfare starts to make perfect sense.

Not_Average · Answer

Where are you going to tax to accommodate the rest of the government spending?

genericname85 · Answer

who will pay for civic services then? the maintenance of of common goods and common property costs money. everyone profit from that. who's gonna pay for it, if not everybody?

worldscolide · Answer

They tax you when you get paid, they tax every dollar you spend, they tax your death, they tax your birth.. Yeah I'm a huge fan of getting rid of most of it.

madgoat · Answer

Tax is the price you pay for the society in which you live. In theory, we should regard taxes as an act of altruism.

DreamCatchcer · Answer

Most taxes should be abolished. The individual spends his income better than the government.

CreamySeed · Answer

As long as the federal government can pay for itself with a printing press it doesn’t technically even need taxes, it can just raise prices on everything.

R3DthatDude · Answer

There should only be 1 tax. State tax, everything else is admin bs that can be handled in another way.

Cress · Answer

You clearly don't understand basics economics. American I'm guessing? Without income tax, you'd just be paid less.

Jltakk · Answer

To be honest taxation should be abolished. Hard earned money shouldn't be taken to feed wealthy frauds in congress that argue and never work.

Dave31989 · Answer

then how will your roads be fixed, or anything done for your city/country PEOPLE PAY THEIR TAXES, SO WE CAN LIVE

LEADFOOTboi · Answer

some kind of tax needs to be abolished... taxed on the money i earn, taxed when i spend it on anything... it's all messed up

b5fan · Answer

I would be good with a flat Death tax of say 50-60%. No exception. Gifts over 10k are taxed at the 50-60% rate.

bamesjond0069 · Answer

Should be a flat sales tax. Purchasing useless consumer products should be penalized while savings and investing should be rewarded.

IlluminatiExposed · Answer

You still have to pay the tax, they just find another way to squeeze you. They will call it Yacht Tax or something.

888theGreat · Answer

Ok , how you pay for a military? How do you pay for streets and roads? How you pay for schools, police, bridges, and Nasa?

QuietRunner · Answer

Replace with the Automated Payment Transaction Tax

joshtheman · Answer

Do you want protection from our military, cause without income tax how would the pay for it? The income tax is how they get the money to pay for the military and other programs.

Anonymous · Answer

Yup But liberals believe all the money belongs to the government

Wewladdy · Answer

Why would I? Less taxes is a great thing. Only retards who don't work think otherwise.

tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ · Answer

You're wrong but I don't really care enough to let you know thousands of reasons why.

CaptainSmartass · Answer

We should shift the burden to communists instead.  Simples...

Jack9949 · Answer

Then again aren’t taxes used to pay for new roads so I can drive to work and be productive?

Anonymous · Answer

Yes they should. There should only be a sales tax. That way, we would essentially be deciding for ourselves how much tax we pay.

Anonymous · Answer

Yeah that’s true, and just leave sales tax to fund other government things

Anonymous · Answer

All taxes should be abolished.

TienShenhan · Answer

Taxation is still theft

ttnnkkrr · Answer

totally agree un8versal sales tax is the solution

Income tax should be abolished. Change my mind?

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