Do people not understand it’s impossible to change your gender?

[Stoner710]

Men don’t give birth men don’t have periods men do not have the ability to feel there children with there bodies, This means the trans men are women end of story.

women don’t have penises women can’t get a women or a man pregnant if you have the ability to get a women pregnant you are a man end of story,

Men are men women are women and you can’t change it.

Answer me this, Outside of self identification what are the physical characteristics that make a man a man? or a women a women? Or are humans just meat sacks floating in space and the world man and women really can’t be defined in anyway there for the words man and women are nonsense and the worlds themselves should be abandoned?

We need to bring sanity back to our society

[Dchrls78104]

People who don't want to face reality would rather:
1. Concoct fanciful fairy tales to soothe or comfort themselves with.
2. Entertain and broadcast the insane babblings and florid delusions of the demonstrably mentally ill, instead of taking the more responsible course of directing same to the places where suitably qualified professionals can give them the treatment they so desperately and urgently need.
3. Censure or persecute those who would offer them the genuine education that only unadulterated truth can bring.

[Jamie05rhs]

💯 #nailedit

[Anonymous]

People say gender and sex are different but why? Most if not all things that can define who we are usually has a psychological or biological reasoning to it so what purpose does gender being a separate term serve?

I get that there are some guys who like typical girl stuff and vice versa but that doesn't make them suddenly the opposite sex. What makes gender different than personality and personal interests?

I bet if we were to find ourselves against a non-human threat that manage to bring the human population so low that we are on the verge of losing, all of this shit will go away and we will be defining ourselves by body parts again. We'd be too busy fighting for our lives to be worried about where anyone falls on any sort of pseudo scientific spectrum.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Why are you so worried about it anyway? It doesn't affect anything in your life.

Besides there are plenty of cis women who can't get pregnant. Cis women who go through menopause don't have periods anymore so are they no longer women?

Some people are born intersex. Do they count as both or neither?

Seriously, leave them alone unless you have a very unhealthy fascination in what is in their pants and, if that is the case, you should probably seek your own mental health provider.

[Stoner710]

1 it’s not grounded in reality,
2 societies that aren’t grounded in reality collapse
3 intersex has nothing to do with men thinking there women and women thinking there men it’s a rare genetic condition
4 if you live in a state like mine your children are taken away from you if you don’t transition them
5 people are trying to sexualize children over this crap
6 it’s destroying the west
7 there changing the language to the point where it doesn’t make sense like birthing person instead of mothers
8 it literally means that we don’t have a definition of man and women because if people men can give birth and women have dicks it literally means there is no definition of man or women
9 there trying to change languages like French Spanish Russian and Japanese which have words specifically for man and woman that don’t work like Latina and Latino or watashi and boku
10 it’s a mental illness and these people need help and not confirmation of there delusions, you wouldn’t have a schizophrenic that the tree is talking to them, Instead of encouraging them to transition which eventually will lead them to commit suicide

[Ez-Bri-Z]

¹ gender is a social construct. So that reality is shaped by society itself.
² societies collapses for a myriad of reasons. I doubt me running around with a fake mustache and calling myself Steven is gonna change that.
³ absolutely right, but even in sex vs gender, the more definitive side which is sex isn't even clear cut.
⁴ more like denying them medical health care
⁵ have proof?
⁶ no it isn't, don't be dramatic.
⁷ birthing person is literally a person who gives birth. What part is confusing you?
⁸ no, the definition still exists. If you are stuck on what is in their pants, again that is your own sexual confusion there.
⁹there are plenty of languages that don't use gender on anything. Languages also change ALL the time. Words enter the lexicon and are modified within it constantly. Let's not preach the sanctity of the dictionary is at stake here.
¹⁰ they are getting help. They are transitioning. Besides, a whole religion that millions worship within literally talks about someone talking to a burning bush, but im sure you aren't calling them schizophrenic now are you? Besides, suicide rates are higher for those who don't have an opportunity to transition.

[Stoner710]

1 right gender is a more polite terms for sex, sex and gender are the same thing men are the make sex women are the female sex
2 and 6, Yes it is you see China getting more aggressive on the world stage and stronger as a society and they have banned transgender as a matter of fact they execute him (not saying we go that far but they are taking over the east)
3 Psychology versus biology phychology is in your Brian and a lot of the time has not barring in reality think Sigmund Freud who had a weird sexual obsession with his mother
5 yes they have drag queen story hour there transitioning 4 years old in my state of Washington they convinced a 4 year old he was a girl it was a show on HBO and by the time he was 9 he said he didn’t want to be a girl any more because he was a boy and his mom wanted him to be a girl father of course wasn’t in the picture, I have more
7 what is a women? And don’t give me the definition of a women is someone who identifies as a women, what are the physical and biological characters of a women? Last time I checked only women could give birth men cannot men don’t have uteruses they don’t get periods they can’t give birth call them women
9 yes it’s called English all other languages are very gendered all Slavic languages all Nordic languages all Asian languages all Romance languages are gendered English is the only one that’s not gendered and we also have the most word
10 transitioning isn’t helping them it’s mutilating them, it’s just as bad of female circumcision it takes way the ability to give birth and getting ride of there ability and even after transitioning they are more likely to commit suicide, they need mental help not Chemical or surgery help, again you would confirm a schizophrenic the tree is talking to them just like you won’t tell a man he is a women or a women that she is a man

[Ez-Bri-Z]

¹ it isn't. Its a separate thing. sex is the chromosome level. Gender is the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex. That's why they are called gender roles , not sex roles. Gender is a cultural thing and when a transwoman identifies as female they aren't saying "I am now biologically female" they are saying in short form that they wish to be identified as a female and take on the looks and typical stereotypes associated to women. There are some biological and physical changes as well, but no, at the chromosomal level they are still male as their sex.
² and ⁶ if you want to be China, then move there. They have always been aggressive though in the suppression of their people. We are not weaker for letting our people be free. If you want a communistic society, please feel free to relocate, but this country is going to be free of that kind of rule.
³ ill let Brian know.
⁵ drag queens are not transgender. Those are drag queens, hence the difference in name. It's a performance. A fabulous performance. As for Phoenix, yep, we absolutely do have people massively over correcting to try and help their kids because what good parent wouldn't try to help? This is why a social transition can be fine after consulting with therapists and why hormone blockers are ok if they are in that range, because it gives the child time to fully realize themselves before starting hormone changes to their preferred sex.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

⁷ there are plenty of biological women who can't give birth, but again you seem to be confusing sex and gender. Transwomen can have period like effects FYI. Even cis men can have monthly hormone cycles. Every single person ever born starts off the same physical way, as a woman. We eventually then divert after about 6 weeks to further develop based on our chromosomes.
⁹ funny enough, your beloved Chinese from your previous example also don't gender their language
¹⁰ Wrong. Completely wrong. Suicide rates actually drop on the whole for transitioners (please use actual legit research before stating that its higher. You could scare off someone considering transitioning thinking that there is no hope for them and actually cause someone to kill themselves when you incorrectly stated stuff like that) Transgender people as a collective group do have a higher suicide rate than the general population but that makes sense. Could you imagine growing up knowing that your body is completely wrong and that you don't fit into society the way they are supposed to be? Your idea of what a person is supposed to do with their bodies is inconsequential. It's their body, not yours. Plenty of cis people never want to have kids. Plenty of women hate their periods and would rather never have them. Plenty of men hate having to do what they have to deal with, but nearly none of them feel and know they are the opposite gender and seek transitioning. That's because they know who they are. They don't need you to tell them they aren't. It's the same for transgendered individuals. They know who they are. Leave them be. You wouldn't be coming at me that hard if I wanted to get a tattoo or have my breasts removed because of cancer. Worry about your own body.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

@Ez-Bri-z

I try not to debait this but I have a strong stance most people struggle to understand.

I doubt you will agree but I bet you will get it. I'm actually interested to hear your opinion if my opinion.

I'll start by saying I'm not anti trans. I had a trans boyfriend at one point.

But I actually find the entire concept offensive. I do believe there are only two genders.

99.9% of people have either XX or XY chromosomes. They make up the DNA in every single cell in our bodies. We can't change that. The only way would be to change the DNA in every single cell or replace all the cells with different cells, at which point I'd say that isn't the same person.

Modify your body all you want. I'm cool with that. I don't think 14 year olds should be on hormones that will change them for their entire lives because nobody knows who they want to be for certain at 14, but that is a different issue. I'm fine with adults doing it, getting surgery, whatever.

The part I have a problem is that the very foundation of transgenderism is based on the concept that girls are like this, and guys are like this. I find that offensive.

I like to paint my nails, rub coconut oil in my hair and sing Taylor Swift. I remember the day in summer camp when they said "girls are going to stay here and paint their nails and boys are going to go play kickball" I love kickball, but I was still furious. I was probably about 10 years old but I put my foot down. I said that was sexist, I was going to paint my nails and they couldn't make me go play kickball. They tried, they failed, and I painted my nails in the shade with all the pretty ladies. It was fantastic. At the time, probably the proudest moment of my life.

But then I spent the next 5 years getting beat up and bullied for looking like a girl or being a faggot. Third graders didn't even know what a faggot was, they just knew I was one because I had long hair and that made me evil. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

I was mistaken for a girl all the time. But that was a mistake. I wasn't offended by that. I was offended by the concept that I couldn't have long hair, paint my nails, listen to Taylor Swift or wear a skirt. I didn't really want to wear a skirt very often, but I still felt I should have the right to.

And that beings me to my issue with transgenderism. I'm okay with people being who they want to be, but you can't change your DNA. These are the people who should be my allies.

They should be taking a stand with me to say "bullshit. Guys can paint their nails and girls can ride dirt bikes" but they aren't. They aren't opposing gender norms, stereotypes, double standards and expectations. They are reinforcing them.

They aren't saying "boys have to play kickball" no... They take it a step further and say "I want to paint my nails, therefore I am required to be female and I demand you support and affirm that perspective"

And I don't. I disagree. The ONLY genuinely and perminet difference between a man and a woman is their DNA. Not physical appearance. Not outfits. Not hairstyle. Not weather they can paint their nails or not.

By pretending and declaring that they have different DNA because they have certain preferences, trans people actually reaffirm and reenforce the gender boxes that they themselves don't fit into.

They are mentally trapped into thinking "boys are like this, and girls are like that" and that's bullshit. Truth is, nobody fits the stereotypes 100%. But trans people are usually the least likely to fit any of the "gender norms"

They should be saying "I'm me, and I like this"

I am a man who likes to paint my nails. And nobody can stop me. I shouldn't be attacked for that.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

But shit, now it's worse. Now people go "oh, so you're trans? Are you going to flip out on me if I don't remember to call you they?"

And I'm like no. I can't stand that shit either. If you are intersex, pick one or the other.

If you have male DNA you are male. If you have female DNA you are female.

But stop reenforcing the idea that there are certain characteristics that you have to have because of that.

That's why the suicide rates are so high.

I'm not a "non binary gender queer"

I am a unique individual who doesn't fit into the preconceived ideology of socital gender expectations.

And truth be told, nobody does. Some people are closer than others but the whole thing is bullshit.

Stop building more walls to put people in smaller and smaller boxes. Help me destroy the ones that exist so we can all be free and happy, love who we love and live how we want to live.

I don't have anything against trans people. But I do genuinely think they are wrong. They have been fooled and deluded.

You can't change your DNA. But you can change everything else. Stop pretending to be someone or something that you aren't and start being yourself regardless of other people's expectations.

I understand that doesn't solve the bathroom issue, but that's kind of my point. Society is set up to be "binary" when people aren't. We have gone a long way down a bad path, but transgenderism just strengthens the walls between people and moves us all further apart.

That's why I think it's wrong.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

How dare you expect me to lie about biology because your preferences don't fit into a bullshit box that shouldn't exist in the first place. How dare you suggest that my DNA dictates how I am allowed to behave or what I am allowed to like.

I find that offensive. And I think everyone else should too. Especially people who call themselves transgender. They aren't transgender. They are unique. They should be themselves Instead of trying to fit a made up mould that nobody ever really does.

They should be helping me change things so they aren't expected to be either box A or box B, but can be themselves.

And I think, that's why most of them aren't happy. In either box. Because you can't fit in by pretending to be someone else.

Anyways, that the whole rant. I hope you liked it. But I'm not going to try to make you agree with me.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

PS: No, I have not confused the word gender with the word sex.

Gender is the physical and/or social condition of being male or female:

I don't believe there should be a social aspect to it. I think it's time we move on from all that and just all be unique individuals.

But I absolutely do not buy into this new trend where woke people demand the definition of words be changed to suit their personal ideology. That's not how it works. Make your own new word if you want.

I'm happy to say "social gender norms, expectations and requirements" but gender is not "the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between femininity and masculinity. Depending on the context,"

Wikipedia is political propaganda. They have the right to post their views with whatever heading they want but they don't get to redefine words. Literature goes back thousands of years. You can't change what a word means over time because that causes so many problems.

People need to learn to say "racially inequitable systematic outcomes" or just cut to the chase and call it unfair (and unacceptable) bureaucratic injustice. But the DNC can't just change the definition of racism because they want to keep using it as a weapon in their political campaigns.

I'm still offended by the fact that homosexuals appropriated the word gay for themselves. It means happy. Happy does not mean homosexual. I am allowed to be happy too. You don't own that just because you are better at it.

Say homosexual. If that's too many letters make up a new word.

But if I see someone dancing and singing and say "that's super gay" I'm not a dam homophobe. I'm just using the word properly.

You can't misuse a word over and over again until people think it mean something else then update the dictionary. I mean, aparently you can but I firmly refuse to affirm that sort of behavior.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

You actually agree with me on that. You think we should use the original definition of the word moot and you are right.

Etymology wins over popular use because that is the only way to keep everyone on the same page. Shakespeare can't go back and update his works to reflect popular misuse in the 21st century. But dam, try reading A Midsummer Night's Dream in a highschool class in 2020.

But that's a long series of my takes I've only just started working on about accurate definitions.

I'm not here to argue about definitions. I'm interested to hear your thoughts about my stance on transgenderism.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Hell of a series of posts to wake up to here. Let's see if my still sleepy brain can get though all of this.

You can be anti trans and still have a trans boyfriend in the same way a person can be still be racist even when they try the "but im friends with a person of color". It doesn't absolve you of your views.

The chromosome thing I've already touched on ad nauseum. That's sex not gender and yes you are still trying to blend the two when that isn't the case. What you are proposing is to obliterate gender roles and let me be the first person to say I'm right there with you.

I'm also on board on not giving gender affirming hormones before a child can legally make decisions for themselves medically. Hormone blockers do nicely. They just stop puberty until the child knows about about themselves to know which puberty they wish to pick, male/female. They should also be able to socially transition as well. When they turn 17/18 then they can decide to take the opposite sex's hormones to simulate as close as medically possible to that sort of puberty or de transition and go through their own biological sex's puberty.

Growing up I only had my 2 brothers so at times I was sort of a tomboy myself. I suck at make up, I fought with my brothers physically, and I watched football with my dad and brothers, but I also love clothes, cooking and design work. None of those made me a boy or girl. They were just things I did. I'm very femme.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

My wife on the other hand is very masculine. She can fix all of our appliances, she has a very unhealthy fascination with owning every power tool for work projects she will never do, and she swears like a sailor. She also loves photography, arts and crafts and watching Hallmark Holiday movies.

Neither of us are being called guys for our masculine sides. It's just stuff we do. This is why I fight on this site for equality so much. I want guys to be able to do a lot of the things women can (like be a stay at home father) and not be judged harshly for it. I want women to be able to get the same opportunities men get in the workplace without a discrepancy in pay or the risk of losing their job if they become pregnant.

I will say this though, I seriously doubt that's the message the transgender community is giving. They are also fighting against what society demands of them as their biological sex, but with the added bonus of saying "and also my sex is wrong. I didn't want to be born this way." Not sure who is declaring they have different DNA, but that would be incorrect. Hormones can change your body, but I dont think they are THAT good.

Also, yes, words change all the time even outside of a gender conversation. Im old enough to remember the 80s where the word Bad meant Good. Im old enough to know that fag used to just mean cigarette and now that has a much more offensive term. Words constantly and will constantly change over time.

Gay was also being used offensively as in "those boys are a little TOO happy." The gay community embraced it and took that word's power away from those who tried to use it negatively. Other communities have done this as well.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

The point is, being stubborn on these ideals doesn't make you right, it just makes you stubborn and feeling like you are the last soldier on the hill waiting to die for your cause. Trust me, I know this feeling well. I'm on a fairly right leaning site preaching for equality, pro-choice and lgbt rights. People who are opposed to these ideals are not ones who ever want to see anyone as equals. They don't actually believe in freedom. They only want their own freedom and to oppress everyone else who doesn't look or sound like them. They don't allow for opposing views and they are ok sitting in their echo chambers, refusing to listen to multiple points of view. When they do this, they take away their own freedom and become a prisoner to their own ideals. Nobody wins that way.

Don't become a prisoner to your own ideals.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

So moot point means it's up for debait but SJW's can drastically change the definition of words over the course of a couple of years?

I mean, I guess you are allowed to feel that way if you want to.

But I also wonder what your definition of anti trans is.

If you agree to date someone, tell them you love them and put their gentles in your mouth then someone else comes along and says you're hateful or afraid of them it's really not a matter of opinion.

But if you mean that I'm opposed to the idea of people "changing" their sex, or their physical condition of being male or female... Absolutely. I wasn't at the time but the reality is that it just isn't possible.

You can say I wish I was born different all you want. I have no problem with that. You can wish you were born taller. You can even get surgery to be taller. . . But you can't change your DNA.

There shouldn't be any social differences. So, that's really the only difference between males and females.

Freedom and togeatherness can't be achieved by moving to the next box over, or drawing smaller and smaller boxes around yourself with different words on them.

And yes, that is exactly what I see the transgender community doing.

You can't change your DNA. Even if you wish you could. So I think the language should be "I'm a person who likes to do this. My sex/gender is male but I don't let that define my personality or limit my options in life"

Not "I don't like the expectations someone else set for me so I you have to refer to me as something that I genuinely and biologically am not and can never become, otherwise I hate you because you are a bad person"

I don't even mind other people saying they are a different sex than they really are. I just mind them attacking anyone who refused to affirm a lie. If a person is offended by their own DNA that is their problem and not mine. I think that is a sign of psychological unrest and not something we should encourage or go along with.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

A moot point means up for debate but over the years people using it wrong has changed its meaning to not worth debating. Even dictionaries changed their definition to recognize it. It officially means both now which is strange admittedly.

Anti trans is just someone who is against a transgender person or movement. It doesn't have to be negative on it's own. It just can be depending on how you act out because of it.

For example, I'm anti abortion. I really am. I dont like the idea of it, however, I am pro choice. I am not letting my beliefs stop others who are not opposed from getting one. That's what equality and freedom really is.

Again, you are still mixing sex and gender. They aren't trying to change their sex (though I'm absolutely sure they'd love to and save themselves a ton of pain and money from surgeries). They realize they can't change their sex I'm sure, but they can change a gender marker and how society addresses them.

You are right though, there shouldn't be a difference between men and women when it comes to socially acceptable behavior. If a woman wants to be a grease monkey and fix cars, let her. If a guy wants to slip on a skirt and walk down the street, knock yourself out.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

Tell people to be themselves. Regardless of society. Not to say they have someone else's DNA so they can live with a different set of silly rules. They probably won't fit into either one, which is why now we have 100 different words Instead of just saying "people are individuals"

I feel that is counter productive and makes the walls taller and stronger instead of smaller and less rigid.

So sure. I guess I'm anti transexuality but not anti transsexual person.

Transcend. Don't just transform. We are not robots.

But again, that's just my opinion. I don't go around trying to make other people adopt my stance because frankly it doesn't affect me.

Plenty of people used to think I was a girl when they met me. I never took it to mean I was wrong. I knew they were wrong.

I got into an argument with a lady about weather I was male or female one time and let me tell you she regretted it because I knew I was right and how to prove it.

I think the reason you see trans people melt down in public when someone uses a pronoun they don't like is because they don't have that inner confidence.

Somewhere in there they know they aren't what they claim to be. They might wish they were, but they just wern't born that way.

I think the response to that should be, "that's okay, I am who I am and I'll live how I want."

Not *screech* "how dare you a accurately guess my genetics based on thousands of years of human evolution and inherent physical queues, you terrible bigot!"

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

I'm definitely against the second thing. It's like the boy who was accidentally altered at birth so they told him he was a female and eventually he killed himself. Afirming it doesn't fix the problem. "You are different and that's okay" is a pill to swallow but it has lasting results. "You aren't you, you are something other than the person you were born as" tends to leave a person with nowhere to feel comfortable.

I think we should get rid of the hurtful social constructs Instead of building cubicals on a terrible foundation and expecting it to lead to happiness.

Like, if it worked... I would be all for it. But the mental health statistics, suicide rates, venomous rage ans wild outrageous public meltdowns seem to suggest that it isn't working very well.

Our DNA isn't different than it was 100 years ago. The difference is the social boxes have gotten smaller so less people fit in them.

The solution isn't to start jumping back and forth or dividing them up. It's to erase the boxes.

But I think there is a political agenda that desperately wants to prevent that so... Here we are watching people lose their shit trying to order a taco.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

But it's like... If that's someones choice I'm not here to make it harder on them.

I'm just not going to encourage it either.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Honestly, I can absolutely see your point of view on this one and you may nearly have me on your side barring a few parts of your point.

People are stupid when it comes to judging. How many times do you hear about people mistaking a woman being pregnant when she is just heavy? I dont know how many people tell me I look like I am in my 20s and I am 42. I've been called a guy before because I'm tall and have some of my grandfathers features. I've been called beautiful and sexy by others. Like I said, people are really bad at judging because it is always filled with some sort of bias.

I agree confidence is an issue but not for the reason you are stating. It's not because they think they are poor imitations. It's because they think OTHER people believe they are poor imitations.

I am going to use my height here, something I've hated for a long time to make a point. I am 5'10. I have always wanted to be closer 5'4. I dont know why I'm this tall. I hate it. It makes me feel less cute and girlish. Yeah, I'm kinda narcisstic that way. And dont get me wrong, this isn't a knock on tall girls. It's just what I want for myself and how I see myself. I'm almost nearly always the tallest one of every girl I have dated so I get lumped in that mindset of "oh she must be the guy of the relationship" as if my height had anything to do with my personality or that there ever needs to be a "guy of the relationship" in a lesbian couple.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

You aren't speaking from experience when it comes to affirmation. I have many trans friends who have consistently delivered the same exact message. They were happier overall after transitioning even if they still have concerns overall about things like appearance or social/family acceptance. They finally got to breathe for the first time as who they know they are inside. Forcing a person to suppress that, tell them they are mentally ill and then forcing them into treatment when they are not a harm to themselves or others is akin to people who try to use conversion camps to "cure" homosexuality. It's cruel, unnecessary and doesn't work. The cure is to actually start transitioning. It's right there in the dsm5 manual as treatment.

Someone who is transitioning has been dealing with that part of themselves for many years. For them, this isn't new. They should have some understanding that people aren't going to instantly switch and be perfect after being used to one way, but at the same time those people could also make an effort to try to not be dicks about it. If a person is presenting fully femme, says her name is Sarah, my pronouns are she/her, and isn't trying to make a joke out of actual transgendered individuals, then just make an effort to call her Sarah or she.

It's those jerks who go out of their way to say "no, you are a man. You were born a man. I refuse to acknowledge you as anything but that" who can go die in a fire. You aren't edgy or cool. You are just a jerk and very well could be contributing to someone's potential suicide. If you are ok with that, then you are the real mentally ill one.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

I have no doubt some people are happier overall after transitioning and it really is better for them.

But just because something feels good at feels good at first doesn't mean it will be better off in the long run.

But... That's not even my point. I'm sure it is better for a lot of people than living a life they don't enjoy. I don't try to take it away from them.

I just think there is a third option. You don't have to be one or the other. You don't have to be "non binary" if you aren't.

The idea that people are binary is outrageous, people are all unique. The only thing you can't change is your DNA. Like literally, that's the only thing I can think of that is set for life for everyone.

I think the focus should be shifted from male/female to self confidence and acceptance. Help people understand that they are not limited by how others perceive them, and that their sex is irrelevant 99% of the time.

I don't really try to explain my point of view to people who are trans because it's too risky.

Some people find it helpful. Some people find it extremely upsetting.

I don't think we should forcibly "treat" people or try to convert them. I don't believe in any of that. I believe in the patients bill of rights.

But I do think there are a lot of dangers. Your sex doesn't matter to who you love, who you hang out with, how you dress or what you like. But there are times when it does matter.

I don't have a specific example, but I would be shocked if there aren't already cases of people who died because they told their doctor the wrong sex and got the wrong treatment.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Hey, you want to jump on board with the ending gender role bandwagon with me, then hop on board. I still don't know if it changes how a transgender person sees themselves because it is at the body level not just "hey I like doing sewing", but im all for normalizing activities across all genders.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

I saw a video of a fat naked male holding a baby to his nipple and letting it suck on it and 1, the baby isn't getting any nutrition. 2, the baby is hungry and confused, but three, he wasn't doing that to feed the baby. If I went out, got my hands on a baby and they caught me naked in my bed encouraging it to suck on my nipple I hope to God they would arrest me. But this person said they were trans so now it's okay to make the baby hungry and then encourage intimate acts purly for the adults pleasure. I don't think that's right.

I get it, a lot of people are so different from the expectations they are better off going with the other set. But I think they would be Even better off making up their own and transsexualism only guides them away from that. Sure, it might be the better of two bad options but we aren't stuck there. Making 7 or 10 or 15 won't solve the problem when there are 8 billion people and no two are the same.

A lot of people change their bodies to try to fit their preferences, regret it, and can't go back. I think we should work to dismantle the system that tells people they have to feel and look and act a certain way because of their gender altogether.

If we can manage that, anyone who still wants to change their body will be much less likely to regret it and much more likely to be happy wether they can afford to actually do it or not.

I understand that isn't going to happen overnight and a lot of people are extremely unhappy right now. But I guess what I'm saying is we need to row the right way.

Telling kids "if you don't like blue you can have pink Instead" doesn't provide for more freedom and individuality. It takes people who would have had green with orange stripes and makes them settle for whichever they hate less.

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Oh man... ok thats sort of my weak point, kids. I HATE kids being used as pawns in agendas and I hate them being abused.

Gender affirming or not, unless you are actually producing milk (and yes cis men can actually lactate) then don't involve that child. Even if you identify as female, that is not ok. Hell, I am female and I never tried to breastfeed our kids.

Again, I think you are confusing something here. A majority of transgendered individuals who transition partially or fully never regret it. Are there some that do? I'm sure there is. It's not just the activities or getting to wear a dress or walk around topless that's doing it for them. It's a fundamental dysphoric reaction to the body they are in.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

I'm not here to make them go back. I'm just here to say we should accept the things we can't change, and ignore the rest. At that point, I don't see why there would be any reason for people to change their gender.

They aren't doing it because the sound of the pronoun is offensive to them. They are doing it because they want people to treat them differently and accept who they really are.

But, different pronouns don't solve that. I think they are more of a distraction than a solution. Sure, it might work for some people, it might be slightly less awful for some people. But the majority of non trans people are unhappy too.

I think we should work together to dismantle the social expectations altogether and we would all be happier.

And I think the vast majority of people would be on board with that if I knew a good way to present it to them.

I'm not saying "Hey, you, get out of that cage with your friends and get back in the other one you hate"

I'm saying, "hey friend, when you settle for a slightly different cage and insist that it is the answer to the fact that you feel trapped you really put me in a bad spot because I don't like either one but now when I complain everyone says 'its fine. Just switch to the other one' Instead of helping me break them both down and let us all be free"

"I feel that you have been duped into thinking these are the only options. You might feel like one is fantastic because it's better than where you started but they actually both suck and that guy with the fancy hat is keeping us all trapped in little boxes so he can eat all the bananas"

And people are like "fuck that guy, he wants to stop us from being in the cage we like, what an asshole"

[Ez-Bri-Z]

Yep, we are united on that front. Too many languages uselessly gender everything. I hate sometimes that everything I want to buy has a more expensive pink option specially made for a woman. Dont get me wrong, I love pink as a color. It's my second favorite color next to yellow. I just don't want to pay extra for the same exact item because it is geared toward a woman as being different (when it isn't).

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

But really, I know full well the whole moving back and forth thing is just a scam to keep people busy because the guy with the hat knows they are starting to catch on and he needs some time to build a new cage that's harder to get out of. And the rest of the people who are as dissatisfied as I am are busy waiting in line to try the other side and demanding the right to be transfered to the other cage.

It's not that I want anyone to be stuck. Im offended by the concept that anyone should believe that is good enough and expect me to agree and pick a cage.

"But hey. Look, we made this new cage just for people who don't want to be in either of the other two. It's special just for you"

"Yeah, no way buddy. I'm not falling for that again. Cut this different cages shit out and stop bullshiting everyone. Guys, seriously, imagine if there wasn't a cage at all and we could just wander around doing what we like"

So some people hate me for wanting change. Some people hate me for being anti cage transfer, and the guy in the hat is sitting there like.. "we have to get rid of Harold as so as possible, if they start listening to him it's all over."

Reference:
https://youtu.be/8jC7NKkjCe0

So anyways, here's what I've got so far...

Motivational dramatization:
https://youtu.be/8jC7NKkjCe0

[Ez-Bri-Z]

I get what you are going for and fundamentally I don't disagree, just some things would need to be worked out first.

In any case, good debate! Nice and civil. Love it 😀

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

Most people do change their minds. They just do it very early on so I admit that doesn't really count. Most of the commited ones haven't regretted it yet but it's becoming more and more more common because it's only really been a popular thing for 5-10 years.

Most adults stick with it. But most people who feel that way are teenagers who are likely to be a very different person after 5 years anyways.

But that is really beside the point. So most people who switch cages prefer the second one. Makes sense to me.

Still doesn't solve the problem at all. It just keeps people busy and makes them think they have to settle for one box or the other.

The more people who see the walls and go "oh, well so long as I can go over to the other box I guess that will be alright" the worse it gets for Harold.

I don't want to be in either one. I could stand either. I was lucky enough to start in the one I prefer. But I'm honestly the one who gets told my personal identity is wrong by antitrans people, trans people, men, women, and the guy in the funny hat has a target on my back for trying to explain that it doesn't have to be this way at all.

But like... Honestly, most people aren't ready for that. Trying to explain it just makes them really angry.

The worst is breaking out of it on my own and most people are like "no, we love the cage, we don't want to get out"

I will probably always be a hermit with my cat. She has no concept of gender. She just knows she is beautiful and has very sharp teeth. And we are happy just being left alone.

I just know most people aren't and I have a lot of free time to think about these things.

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

I really felt like we agreed on most things.

Not every conversation has to be a debait.

[Stoner710]

@Lost_in_the_Woods ok I didn’t get through the hole conversation but I think I get the most of it, I have no issue with a guy someone dressing up and calling themselves Stacy my issue is there trying to force it down on everyone’s throats and trying for force children to have hormones that have no basis in reality, Also when you take transgenderism to its logical conclusion there are no such thing as men and women.

Gender norms are also what allow society to function, not saying a women can’t be a mechanic or a guy can’t be a hair dresser, but we need to understand men and women are different, men tend to be more aloof and stick to themselves and do wild and crazy things like drive 100 MPH women tend to be more caring and loving gender norms are important for western civilization to continue, There are other civilizations out there waiting to take over, Like socialism and communism, we need these normal in order to protect our freedom and rights to do what we want, Think if you both were in China your would be sent to reeducation camps or killed for being gay, The west allows you to be who you want but it’s important to keep our country grounded in reality not in Fantasy, reality is harsh be glad your not in Iran or China or North Korea be glad your in the United States

[Lost_in_the_Woods]

I don't agree that society wouldn't function without gender norms.

I think it would give people more freedom and independence and they would fight to keep that Instead of resorting to crime, apathy and suicide.

[Stoner710]

@Lost_in_the_Woods when I’m talking gender norms I’m not talking about guys liking sensated candles or women liking to go mudding or driving trucks we do need some gender normal like women having kids and men providing for there families, China for example tried getting rid of gender norms and now they don’t have enough women to reproduce in there society so there sex trafficking North Koreans because there are not enough women (read in order to live my yeonmi park).

We also need to understand that both men and women are important in a household boys aren’t afraid of there mother they are afraid of there father hence why mothers use to say “wait until your father gets home”. Even Clarence Thomas was afraid of his uncle who raised him but he wasn’t afraid of his uncle (watch created equal: Clarence Thomas in his own words). Men and women have there own roles to play in society and a society that rejects these roles are doomed to fail, Like China is failing right now which is why there getting way more aggressive on the world stage as the west is dying it’s self.

[FunkyMonkee]

Do people not understand that it's BEEN possible since the early `40's? You people must be INCREDIBLY SICK to be so bent out of shape over this shit!! Get a life, already!! If you want to bitch about something, bitch about shit that matters instead of shit that's none of your damn business!!

[lightbulb27]

Is it that they think/ feel one way but physically are another? I think we have a serious problem in the food supply impacting our micro biome…. Impacting the hormones which impacts our brains.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Their foolishness will disintegrate right before their eyes.

Opinions and feelings will never overight what is actually truth today, yesterday and tomorrow.

[OddBeMe]

You having a bad day?

Scientific gender, and societal labels. There’s a difference.

[Stoner710]

In language gender is a server polite word for sex, it’s like calling old women a women or a certain age

[OddBeMe]

whats wrong with letting people choose what to be called?

[Stoner710]

The fact that we’re mainstreaming delusional, it’s like affirming that a tree is talking to a schizophrenic they need help. Reality is reality,

[OddBeMe]

not really. there's scientific basis in transgender.

[Stoner710]

Not really, unless biology and psychology is in conflict with each other, Even the DSM5 classifies what we call transgender as gender dysphoria which is a mental illness. We also have specific definitions of man and women and physical characteristics, Women have vaginas have the ability to give birth and feed the child with there bodies they and have breast, and have XX chromosomes according to Biology, Men have the ability to get women pregnant men have penises and and XY chromosome there is a biological difference between men and women, When you take the idea of transgenderism to its logical extreme it’s essentially means that men and women don’t exist, You can’t have a definition that has the word you are defining in the world, this is why the definition trans rights activists has when you ask what is a women they say it’s someone who identifies themselves as a women. Which makes no sense because again what is a women? What are the physical characteristics that make a women a women. an adult female human being. Then we define female of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes, there for if and a trans women your not a women because you can’t bare offspring or produce eggs which can get fertilized by the male gametes. You can have even get a female pregnant there for your a man how can we define man an adult male human being. how do we define male of or denoting the sex that produces small, typically motile gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring. there for a man is a male a women is a female, if you can give birth your a women if you can get a women. pregnant your a man, This is biological reality sorry men can’t be women and women can’t be men

[Anonymous]

People will say sex and gender are different. But if true , why do transgenders then need to transition so their new gender identity now match their "sex"?

[Msputiton]

Gender and sex are different.

[Stoner710]

No there not gender was the term used to be polite before the sexual revolution of the 1960s

[SmokinAces2000]

Gender and sex are different

[anylolone]

Depends on what you define as gender.

[Stoner710]

Gender is the polite word for sex aka male and female

[anylolone]

Not really, technically at it's roots, gender just mean type, in this case, grammatical gender which is a social type.

[WowwGirl]

Agree