Are you worried about famine?

[razelove]

If there's a break from talk about abortion, Elon Musk, or whether we should start a war with Russia, the possibility, or probability of famine (depending on the source) comes up. Do you think this will be a serious problem?

Yes

No

Famine isn't so bad (NPR)

[DaveJord]

So scientist say that the planet Earth can sustain approximately 10 to 12 million people due to fresh water resources. Currently we are at 7.5 billion population on the planet... so famine is a real possibility given climate change and prolong drought.

This kind of makes it hard to get upset about COVID when the population keeps growing at astronomical rates. I compare it the mega forest fires we are seeing in world today. For decades from the 1930 through the 1990's we would put out ever fire that popped up immediately instead of letting them burn out all the undergrowth in the forest in accordance to the natural cycle. Now with climate change there are is so much undergrowth built up these fires have so much fuel to burn they burn out of control.

That's kind of were we are heading with the population with modern medicine, there so many people a live today that would of died in their 40's, 50's or 60's the population is ripe with hosts and disease carriers that when a real epidemic hits it will be disastrous, and the I think the CDC knows that... which why you see this huge over reaction to COVID. Because we have failed to let the natural process work its magic by letting some people die of what would of been considered natural causes 100 years ago.

So if its not disease it will be famine. And all this foreign aid the United States sends to countries that can not maintain their populations, is really futile... when the process of natural selection would correct the issue on its own.

www.worldpopulationhistory.org/carrying-capacity/

[razelove]

With most people I argue, but with water I actually have to agree with you. Most water plants use anthracite to filter water, and you can only use it for a few months before it becomes saturated. Activated carbon has no limit really, but the premise is that your water has low enough turbidity and is pottable to begin with. You can also flush most carbon filters with salt water if it's not for DI water or something. Anthracite is a non-renewable resource though, and much more rare than coal. When we're out of it, every major city absent some major technological breakthrough for reverse osmosis or something will be experiencing legionaries, e coli, and nitrification from the increased chlorine.

Anyway, that isn't the issue I was focusing on at present, but is one that will be a global crises in the future if your water doesn't come from a well. Granted the positive side of that is at least everyone affected by it would die off in less time than they could complain online. One day for combat effectiveness, two for cognition, three for death.

[007kingifrit]

i see it as a great opportunity to cleanse the earth and reignite an age of western imperialism. to destroy enemy civilizations and take their stuff

aslong as we make sure we aren't sick with compassion when the enemy migrants come we have great opportunities ahead

[razelove]

I actually agree with that 100%. I'm stashing away and looking for foreign contracts to stash more away for when the market crashes to get more real estate. Compassion is for family, friends, and lovers, if other people leave themselves vulnerable it's their own fault, same if we leave ourselves vulnerable for predation... also why I'm looking for foreign and not US contracts, always better to have multiple escape routes.

Ironically the only big winner globally would be Russia as they're a huge food producer... pro move blocking our trade of metal, food, and ammo from them *face palm*

[007kingifrit]

i think you misunderstand. america will be fine. we are the most economically isolated country in the world economically. the more chaos and death abroad the more business will return to america to keep us employed. to hell with the rest of the world. russia can't survive without American imports, china can't either. america doesn't need anyone

[razelove]

To an extent I agree with you, but the premise there is that Americans go back to work, and we rebuild our industrial base and middle class. Under dems that's impossible, under republicans unlikely, and libertarians have next to no chance of gaining power though in my opinion that ideology would produce the most concrete results towards that goal.

[007kingifrit]

it's already happening. 100s of companies are leaving china. and coming closer to the principle market. as the world becomes more violent and unstable markets will naturally retract to the biggest market. which is america

[Smoke-n-Growls]

We're already seeing this become a major concern.

Studies have shown that many food crops are losing nutritional value in the US due to monocropping and how agribusiness has approached farming in the last several decades.

A new dust bowl is becoming a top concern, with monocropping and poor soil management leading to loose top soil easily lost in flooding.

Drought is also spreading across the US, and where it isn't drought it's flooding. Also devastating farmland are wildfires which are becoming more and more prevalent due to poor fire management (lack of funding) and global warming.

War and COVID have impacted supply chains globally and political protests at borders have also mired food deliveries and ruined entire shippments.

Monsanto's death grip on the agricultural industry as a whole is also squeezing famine into more of a reality every year. Farmers can't reseed or even keep seeds, and are being priced out of buying more. If a crop fails due to any reason, they often can't afford to buy more seeds.

Famine is on its way, and has already hit many places.

I'm worried, but taking action by starting to grow my own foods. So far, I have kale, lettuce, tomatoes, strawberries, and mint alongside several spice crops on the go. I'll be adding more as time goes on.

It's time to bring back victory gardens.

[razelove]

I'm with that. My big worry is that gardens in suburbs require cooperation in a community. Whether you're religious or not church used to fill that slot well... now most "community" is much more superficial on social media, and I'd expect more theft than teamwork.

[Smoke-n-Growls]

The way I see it, it's often easier than we expect and I've found many gardeners willing to help. And if a neighbour needs to steal some of my paltry harvest, then they really needed the food and I'm happy they get fresh stuff versus what we buy at a supermarket.

There's plenty of community gardens in my city, and I've had good success with small garden projects previously - cheap hydroponics are a great solution for apartments since they can be entirely contained indoors.

Do you live in the US?
I commonly hear lack of community being a barrier from Americans, which is weird to me since you guys are such a densely populated country. I'd have thought community is more common, but it seems more common for hyperindividualism to be the trend.

[razelove]

In the US indeed, the land of hundreds of facebook friends, but all of your images are selfies because you can't get anyone to take a picture with you lol

On a serious note, part of it might be the housing market crash we had in 07-09 and mor erecently COVID. When I was growing up I was tight with my neighbors and it was easy to talk with them and play with them. Seemed easy for my folks to get along with them ok as well. I mostly go to church for community and so my kids can make friends as my neighbors have no desire to communicate or for their kids to play. It's kinda eerie to be bluntly honest. Being next door to someone for years and exchanging less than what we've talked about here, like twilight zone eerie.

[Smoke-n-Growls]

I hear that. COVID has certainly made it a bit scary to make friends with neighbours.

I'm hoping to bridge that gap by providing extra veg when my crops come in.

Just seeded a full tray of herbs and veg this morning. I need to go get a back up strawberry plant, though - mine got caught in some late frost and I think it's been done in...

[Brokenheartedx]

Famine isn't so bad? I'm old enough to remember Ethiopia, babies with bloated bellies, stick thin and covered head to toe in flies biting them
Not bad you say? To this day I can't look at potatoes which I was made to eat as a child myself while watching these kids on news reports. It was the most horrible thing I've ever saw and I associate potatoes esp boiled ones to seeing that horror, it left a lifelong mark on me that lasts to this day.
So anyone that says they aren't worried about famine, lucky to have never seen those poor children starving to death.

[razelove]

As in the brackets (NPR) it was a story run by NPR that famine isn't so bad now, and couldn't be as bad because we're advanced. It's not a premise I agree with, much like saying that nukes would be more gentle because they've gotten older and radioactive materials have a half-life.

[Brokenheartedx]

In a war all they need to do is cut the water supply, if that's cut we are done for. That's how the famine in Africa happened months long drought, they had no water to grow crops or feed livestock.

[razelove]

This is true, you could have food for years, but without water you lose combat effectiveness within a day. How feasible it is to cut water depends on setting as well, a city is hopeless, an aquifer would be near impossible to cut, though water distribution from a river would be simple as rivers typically require a lot of filtration and chlorination due to the turbidity and bacteria. I don't know much at all about dams, so no idea there.

[007kingifrit]

i think he means that those people are going to need to starve to death eventually. they had too many kids. we can't save them without destroying us

[razelove]

@007kingifrit Oh, that's just fucked up. All the people crying about overpopulation are doing so online. Some technologies and infrastructures cannot exist without a supporting population/population density, high speed data, medical care past trauma care including pharmaceuticals, the green energy they love, coal, water and turbines are more simple. Sigh, jackasses. "It sure would be great if we all had to pull plows again!"

[007kingifrit]

no new technology is going to save such a huge population. their numbers are going to come down and it is going to be dark

[razelove]

@007kingifrit Oh no, I'm saying with a population decrease would come a loss of existing technologies, you can only expect a rapid expansion of new ones with a large and growing population, look at Japan after WWII compared to now. With a shrinking population and low birth rate they're stagnant. Meanwhile after Ethiopia recovered from their famine and got organized, they're exploding in population, and GDP per capita, granted it took them 20 years to get there.

[ADFSDF1996]

With today’s technology famine shouldn’t be too much of a problem for developed nations unless there’s a nuclear war.

[razelove]

Most of that technology we use relies on phosphates we mine, which have been mined out and we imported from Russia. You can still push plants to grow with ammonia fertilizers, but they won't produce fruits and veggies as well without the phosphorous.

[ADFSDF1996]

That’s part of the technology but I’m referring to the more controversial technology that makes artificial food. They are even making swift progress when it comes to artificial meat (cultured meat).

[razelove]

Too expensive and slow, last I checked the culture grown meat was a couple hundred a pound, the cultures had a high failure rate, and you still need an input of energy, gases, and McCormick's growth serum at minimum.

[ADFSDF1996]

Even the musket had its limitations that were eventually improved with repeaters, semi autos and full autos.

The cultured meat technology is currently in it’s “musket” stage.

[DARKCLOUD1945X]

I do not know about where you live but store shelves do not have as much as they used to. Small farmers are shutting down because they cannot afford to hire help buy fuel for their tractors and buy fertilizer for the crops and it is only going to get worse. Gas shortages are starting to in crease because GREEN NEW WAY BIDEN shut down gas exploration pipes line stopped permits raise to outrageous prices. This in order to foist switching to green power and fuel and have people buy electric cars which are years away for what we need. Also put everything to building solar power wind power like that serving Houston a few year ago so good they failed and hundreds of thousands of people were without power for months and if you could get power they were charged thousands of dollars a month if they could get it I do not know about you but planed shutdown that make baby formula 6 month ago still closed with no back up plans in place Guess what there is no formula to be had and not everyone can breast feed. So I would advise you to stock up on canned good and instant mashed potatoes because the crop has failed So Bunkey famine is very very real this year because of our government policy of ACT WITHOUT THINKING OF THE AFTERMATH... i HAVE HEARD FRIED CARDBOARD IS REAL GOOD

[razelove]

I wonder what the consequences are for building a private nuclear reactor

[DARKCLOUD1945X]

BOOM

[razelove]

It would be possible to build it without a runaway reaction if you linked it up with a river and didn't care about irradiating the environment. I mean, who would notice the extra neutrons in the water anyway? It's free deuterium, and tritium, labs pay money for that, you should be getting thanks, right?

[DARKCLOUD1945X]

Nicely put and just think we would not even need nightlights.

[razelove]

It's like fireflies, but they only blink off after 20 years or a lack of oxygen

[genericname85]

absolutely. if there ever was a disease like the pest, we'd starve. that is because as the pest happened, the vast majority of people were still working in agriculture. every place had some fields and farmers. so a large percentage of the population was working in making food.

these days however, less than 1% of the population even know how to do agriculture and do all the farming with huge mashines. so these days, if something like the pest just wipes out 50% of the population, the rest will very likely die of famine. we're in a very precarious situaiton.

that's why i thought the fear mongering for corona was such a joke. like a disease would have to be far more dangerous to actually be a threat.

[razelove]

I was worried about it when I was in Vegas and started hearing rumors in January, then left, and went with my family to somewhere rural. Didn't know how bad it would be, and just knew there were a shitload of Chinese private jets staying long term. I mean, it worked out as home values skyrocketed lol. In this case though, yeah, having very few, specialized farmers have less fuel, fertilizer, and the usda in control of prices will lead to many farms not being able to produce or stay away from bankruptcy

[genericname85]

yup. but the other edge of that same sword makes the entire society depend on very few people.

places like russia and the former soviet states will ironically be better off. cause there's actually many people who are so poor, they need to do agriculture to have food on the table. they will ironically be less effected by such things.

[MCheetah]

They''ll never be famine. We'll just all "eat da bugs," like Greta says!

[razelove]

It can work or not work depending. No matter what you eat, or don't eat, your body needs carbs, protein, fiber, trace vitamins and minerals, and for less energy to be expended obtaining those than is gained by ingesting/digesting them.

I've eaten bugs, some are ok. The only one in this region that's edible and easily obtained would be fire ants, and there needs to be a method to lure, or kill the whole colony. That would get you mostly protein (and some formic acid) as well.

It'd be easier and more effective to fish, at least here.

[Anonymous]

yeah pretty much. If you look at the literally dozens of food processing plants that have been destroyed through "accidents" in the past 2 years, you might even think that it's being planned. Fertilizer costs have skyrocketed so many farmers aren't even planting. In the USA, the dang government PAYS some farmers not to plant. It's a very real possibility that a food shortage is on the way. For how long, and how severe is anyone's guess though.

[razelove]

The USDA is ridiculous about that for price control, buying and destroying crops as well, rather than creating a strategic stockpile. China went the opposite direction, they'll buy up for price control, and store it. It isn't like a canneries are difficult to make if you aren't worried about quality as opposed to quantity.

[exitseven]

Not yet but it is a little troubling to see empty shelves at the supermarket. I was at the supermarket today and could not find what I was looking for.

[razelove]

I think people in large cities will probably be the only ones to be impacted by lasting shortages. Most likely you'll see a lot of not getting what you want coming up, but enough variety to prevent malnutrition if you put in the effort to cook different types of meals more native to your biome. The only one native to cities would be insects, rats, pigeons, and disease though... Even in a suburb you can lose the yard and plant, if not raise chickens if you're lacking the sunlight for that.

[front2back]

Famine in the US not necessarily, especially in my area. However I guarantee you food prices will get crazy over the next year and many people will start skipping meals and such to save money.

[razelove]

I do agree that when the effects do get more severe, different areas will experience different severities. Like I'm finding it difficult to imagine say, Nebraska suffering too much from food shortages, or exponential price increases.

[jshm2]

Well.. costs are going to keep rising regardless.

When it reaches a tipping point where the majority can't afford staple foods, then it's going to boil over. Thats is when it will affect those that can afford foods and those that make food.

That's when the famine circle will start.

[razelove]

I think it's going to be when the logistics just aren't worth it. The biggest player in the food game is the USDA. If no one wants to listen to them, or in the middle of high costs of production burn part of this years crop at last years prices, the only tool they have left to play is to not approve for human consumption. As the food would be illegal for those with bumper harvests at that point, it would be cheaper to make customers pay for their own transportation, and keep more in line with "private sales"

In the situation you're talking about, we'd be past any sort of feedback loop as money would basically be worthless at that point if it can't even buy food for the majority of people. That's from my limited understanding though.

[annabananna]

I would have to move back to the country and I’d prob live close to my brother because he knows how to live off the land.

[razelove]

Nice, livestock, hogs, deer? I love eating wild hog, at the same time there's no other animal that I arm up heavily to hunt, those are scary as hell if they charge.

[annabananna]

He has cows pigs and chickens as well as a really good garden. He knows how to build and I think if we were ever in survival mode he would be the one I’d wanna be around.

[Blueeyes81]

For first world countries, no. For developing countries and third world countries, it already is a problem and will get much worse.

[razelove]

That's just like how inflation and gas prices are hitting Americans right now. The poorest and most vulnerable are going into a tailspin first. Though who knows, at the end of this we may wind up being one of those vulnerable countries. Most of them are rich in materials, but don't produce much, import a lot, and lack skilled labor. That is the direction we're going.

[Exterminatore]

Anything in this vein is something to be prepared for if possible, however I’m not too worried.

[razelove]

Well, I always have to be prepared for hurricanes down here with food, ammo, fuel, power, tools, and in case of a Cat V the option to start looting when needed, so that's already done. I find it funny when people get bunkers down here though, without large pumps they flood every time lol

[Exterminatore]

I can’t believe they don’t put pumps in those! If you need a sump pump in a basement, certainly you need one for a bunker.

Like you I am prepared for most emergencies that won’t last more than a few months. Got plenty of supplies and ammo and can live off the land long term.

[razelove]

Oh yeah man, one of the parish governments built an underground road, and a bunker for the entire council back in the cold war era, and didn't install any pumps. I was doing disaster work and one of the crews found it as a complete wreckage. A local casino pumped it out, and thought about expanding on it simply to make a shortcut shuttlebus route from the airport, but gave up on it from the expense of moving all the mud down there. I got to see it a few times, and the smell, oh man, the smell of all that pooling water and sludge was just wonderful lol

[andreasderjuengere]

Many of ''us'' are used to live in abundance and over-supply.
We can safely survive with less. It just means: no more hamburgers or pizza.
A REAL famine that causes people to starve isn't likely where I presently live.
I do grow some own stuff, and my surrounding does the same. Add some pigs, chicken and ducks, and we'll figure out a way to get by.

[libsaretards]

I know how to grow crops, hunt and survive off the land so I am not worried about famine. If I was forced to live off crops, it would not be too difficult for me.

[Sun_Kim-Ai]

A famine could be a way to teach ourselves to do more with less, and reinforce our community spirit.
I'm not completely against it - like I've said about Covid and the floodings that plague my region, they are tests for us and our community.

[razelove]

I could see community coming together most places outside the US, aside from religious organizations it's tough to imagine here though.

[josephinelcajon]

A food shortage is coming BUT its not all foods it will be mainly foods you want. Basic foods will be available such as rice and beans that people do not like to make. Stock up on these now and for other emergencies such as natural disasters!

[razelove]

I've never had a problem with red beans and rice...

[Anonymous]

Maybe for others, but not really for me. I’m country as fuck and know how to garden. 🌱 🌲 🍎

[razelove]

I look at this as an excuse to get rid of my yard, and put in some concertina wire. I've always hated the feral cats and cutting grass... lol

[DWornock]

Not al all, food is always available for money. Famine is good because it kills off the undeserving worthless.

[razelove]

What would you define as the undeserving worthless?

[DWornock]

A majority of humans since most humans serve no worthwhile purpose, About all they do is breed and make more of their kind, and destroy the habitat of many beautiful species.

[razelove]

Every species struggles to climb the food chain, the only thing that makes us different is feeling guilty about success. Bacteria are still above us, we just find it hard to admit as they don't have intelligence.

[Exterminatore]

@DWornock

Am I reading this right? Did you just place more value on animals than humans?

[DWornock]

@Exterminatore That depends on the animal. We are not an endangered species, in fact their are too many humans. However, some humans such as Olympic winners are extremely valuable while the typical homeless person has no value or a negative value. There are not many mountain gorillas so a gorilla is far more valuable than the average human. Most dogs and house cats are not as valuable as a human. And, it is not always about numbers. There are more humans than porpoises but they are close to maximum in their enviournment so the death of a few porpoises is not going to have much effect on their survival or total population. So in that case, I may place more value on the life of a human.

[razelove]

@Exterminatore I don't even try to understand them, just verify they do indeed think that way. Though I'm always curious that if they truly hold that belief they should sterilize themselves to let our kids have more opportunities and less rhetoric.

[robocop666]

russia is causing it in the ukraine. To remind them of the holodomor.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/q1pqnsIyHpk

[TallAnon]

Obesity is a bigger problem than a famine now.

[razelove]

Hmm, so when the shelves are empty roast the long pig... lol

[DARKCLOUD1945X]

I know what a long pig is you might want to explain what a long pig is for the uninformed

[Anonymous]

Countries which import foods need to reduce their population. Famine is a good tool do do that.
You can't afford children that you can't feed. This is a billion years old rule of mother nature.