Anti-immigration is anti-Captialist, right?

[OddBeMe]

You’re against competition. You’re against expanding our consumer base.

Yes

No

[nightdrot]

Strictly speaking, yes. Adam Smith, generally agreed to be the father of free market economics famously said, "The merchant has no country." However, therein lays the key.

The idea behind the Enlightenment - of which Capitalism is a product - was that natural laws were universal and transcendent. That man was corrupted where the natural law was violated and that society must align its laws - which had been corrupted by pre-scientific and narrower societies and their laws - with the natural law and then peace, harmony and prosperity would follow.

The implications of this were distinctly trans-national. That man's nature was such that he was man radically alone. That his relationship to his fellow man was based solely on his humanity. That narrower identities - country, community, family, etc. - were corrupting and made for tumultuous and unstable societies and mitigated against peace and justice.

The problem, of course, is that man is not a universal being radically alone. As the 18th century British statesman and political philosopher Edmund Burke put it, "A nation is not a mere thing of physical locality." Man is not radically alone but derives his identity from - to borrow from Burke again - "the little platoons." That is, from family, country, religion.

Strip these away from man and he is reduced to his - borrowing from Burke one more time - "naked shivering nature." Where stripped of such identity he will seek out other sources of identity. This being what opened the gates to Communism, Fascism, National Socialism and other "secular religions."

The Founding Fathers of the United States sought to square the circle by creating what is today called a "creedal nation." That is a nation bound together not by skin color, language, or other such "national" identities, but by adherence to a common set of ideals. Hence, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, as Lincoln put it - "a nation dedicated to a proposition."

The problem with immigration, of course, is that man is not a creature of mere ideals. He is those particularities and when he admits, without reflection, others from different cultures and "sub-identities" he is apt to alter the nature of the state itself. This aside from mere economic considerations.

Capitalism is an intelligent, efficient and largely successful economic system. An enormous producer of wealth and social energy. However, it is NOT compatible with the other narrower sources of identity that bind human beings together. A member of a country is a member of a community. A member of the Capitalist system is free, but is part of an amorphous mass. A mere cog in the economic machine.

That is why the immigration debate is so controversial in the United States. In economic terms, especially as its population is aging and its workforce and therefore tax base is shrinking, the USA needs more immigration.

Yet change the population and you change the culture. Change the culture and ultimately, in time, the nature of the state itself may change.

So a balance must be struck. To be strictly anti-immigrant will ultimately undermine the economy and to some degree the Enlightenment principles on which the USA was founded. Yet, to be "open borders" will just as equally - and arguably far more rapidly - dilute the sense of a common national identity and with it those values and principles that define the nation. (This aside from the impact it will have on the wages of those who are unskilled and/or low income.)

As Johann Wolfgang von Goethe said, "Out of moderation a pure happiness springs." Just as those who oppose immigration in principle threaten to undermine the benefits of capitalism, those who support unlimited immigration are equally playing with fire. To repeat Burke, "A nation is not a mere thing of physical locality" after all.

[Jabberjaw]

If a distinction is being made between illegal and legal immigration. And Free Market Capitalism vs just capitalism. Then I agree with respect to legal immigration.

With respect to illegal immigration I disagree. Because with free market capitalism people here illegally immigrating are not really playing by the same ruleset.

It's one thing to be company stationed in another country and making money in America, because they're generating Revenue by selling services to American consumers. There's a fair trade in a free market.

But with illegal immigration there isn't a fair trade. It's revenue generated by the same consumer, given no unique service while at the same time taking a job away from a citizen.
And in most cases the money is taken to another country. Out of our economy.
They're effectively siphoning from our system.

Benefitting from the economy while realistically not taking part, removing opportunity form a citizen who would put that money back into the US economy

[Jabberjaw]

If an illegal immigrant is a business owner or providing some sort of unique service directly to consumers in America, then that's another thing. Because that actually is taking part in the free market under the same rule set and it's only a piece of paper that they're not abiding by as far as rules.

But to be a business owner you have to do so much for the country already that I think illegal immigrants that start business are okay. But illegal immigrants who try and be employees should get out

[OddBeMe]

1) the US intentionally makes gaining citizenship hard…unless you have rich anchor families like Melania.
2) you can possibly guess the heights of a person’s determination. A current business owner could be a thief and poor nobody may have a life changing idea.

[OddBeMe]

*can’t possibly

[Jabberjaw]

That's talking next to the point.

The point is that if the illegal immigrant is bringing unique value to the consumers in America, then I think it should be okay for them to stay. If they're just going to be an employee then they're only hurting citizens by being here while at the same time not playing by the same rules.

Even if a business owner is a piece of shit, in order for them to be making their money they still have to provide some level of value to the overall consumer base. For them to last long term they have to maintain a good reputation, screw over people long enough and you're fucked

Now you're trying to say that their criminal pieces of shit and dealing drugs and gang affiliations and things like that, that really that's the case and support of anti immigration in general.

I'm simply talking about criteria that I think would justify an illegal immigrant being here. Legal immigrants I'm all for. But when we're talking illegal, they better bring value to us

[Jabberjaw]

Some talk to text typos. Apologies lol

[OddBeMe]

That is the point. Melania trumps family hasn’t done a thing. But there are thousands in Mexico who’d improve our economy.

You can know someone’s worth by guessing.

[Jabberjaw]

That's really a emotional argument

I'm making a case what's good for the economy and current US citizens?

I don't see how you can make a case that a bunch of illegal immigrant employee workers is benefiting the economy in any real way.

At least in the case with the business owner they are providing a service to the consumers. US citizens. I'm talking about what is good for US citizens and it's easy to make a case that a business owner providing a good product or service is good for u. s. citizens and injecting more money into our Market which is good for the economy and therefore u. s. citizens.

How does illegal immigrants taking up employment in the US benefit current US citizens today? If you can answer that honestly then at least you have an argument.

But so far it sounds like you're just trying to make up moral case for why are we going to go to be allowed a regardless of what it's good for US citizens today.

How does illegal workers taking American jobs benefit us? It might benefit the business owner who saved a lot more money oh, but that doesn't benefit the consumer base or the overall economy

[OddBeMe]

1) immigration (regardless of legality) increases americas consumer population.
2) immigrants are more likely to be more productive than native born (researched)
3) you’re protecting native born people simply for where they’re born, despite them being less productive. What’s more Communist than that?

[Jabberjaw]

1. Many immigrants simply make money and send it home to family in another country only using the bare minimum to survive. Such as sharing a 2 bedroom apartment with 15 people (I've had neighbors who were illegals that did this) so in their case 1/15th consumer population as far as rental housing and they sent almost all the money home
2. Erroneous. Their productivity has nothing to do with benefiting citizens or overall economy. (Perhaps business owners who hire them and receive better profit margins)
3. I'm protecting no one. I'm saying establish how illegal immigration is a good thing for the economy and US citizens. You've failed to do either

You've just sidestepped it and attempted to throw labels. Which again is just an emotional argument. Make a logical fact based argument to support a claim that illegal immigration is good for citizens and how.

Or be honest and say you don't give a shit about what's good for the economy and citizens. And that you really only give a shit about what's good for illegal immigrants. at least then you're being honest

[OddBeMe]

Wow, it’s like you’re intentionally avoiding my points with asinine scenarios…

1) Fact: illegal immigrants pay sales tax
2) doesn’t matter if they send money home. Americans save too. We also all buy beer and other products. And illegals live 15 to a room because they’re illegal…
3) productivity of immigrants is quite researched.
www.frbsf.org/.../

[Jabberjaw]

No you're just acting like a cunt and I'm attempting to bring it back to a simple topic.

You claim illegal immigration is good for US citizens and overall economy.

I'm saying make your case. And you still have yet to do so. Blah blah blah productivity. That's good for them and business owners. That's not in support of a case that it's good for citizens.

When you make a moot point yes it will be disregarded. Use some facts to support a meaningful point not facts to support irrelevant points.

Splitting rooms BECAUSE they're illegal wasn't the point. The point is they're spending basically nothing on housing which is less money in the economy when a citizen would use way more, which benefits the economy.

Yes, they pay sales tax. A very small dismal amount and send the rest home... out of the US economy. Again not benefitting us.

I'm not saying they're wrong for doing it or even hating on it. I'm simply saying it doesn't benefit the overall economy or US citizens. You're somehow trying to act as if it does when it doesn't.

Overall the topic of immigration is about what's best for America, not what's best for those immigrating into the country, especially illegally. So save the pseudo moralistic attitude.

[OddBeMe]

I did genius. All immigration is good. Proven. “Illegal” is just window dressing between the haves and have nots. And I’ll say again, we can’t possibly guess who will be a beneficial to our economy.

[Jabberjaw]

To be real, didn't read. Have the last word if you care. Arguing BS is your thing not mine

[OddBeMe]

Then why’d you start?

[Chiarac2003]

I’m jus anti-open borders and lying to say it’s normal.

[Avicenna]

What happens to housing prices and wages (especially at lower levels) when there are high levels of immigration? And how exactly do high levels of immigration promote competition between companies? Finally, does your definition of capitalism mean that nothing can be limited by law and if there are limits placed on it, is that "anti-capitalist"?

[OddBeMe]

Do you have a study I could read that goes through all that? I feel like I keep linking to stuff and you guys never read them. :)

[Sevenpointfive]

we don't need more people here. if we put the poor to work the jobs the immigrants work we'd be a much happier society. what's more capitalist than cheap labor? that can't happen anymore. pay the people what they're worth. ramp up immigration laws, raids and enforce deportation.

[OddBeMe]

So what’s stopping the poor now?

[Sevenpointfive]

immigrants taking the jobs the poor people would do but won't because the pay is shit

[OddBeMe]

Funny lots of jobs open right now. Alabama kicked out ALL illegal immigrants and their economy nearly busted.
www.theguardian.com/.../alabama-immigration-law-workers

[Sevenpointfive]

but that's a kick in the ass to capitalists that want to charge their workers nothing

[OddBeMe]

No that was a kick in the ass to Alabama whole economy. Corporations are guilty of that, true, but it’s not the illegals fault.

[Sevenpointfive]

you don't think america was built on cheap immigrant labor?

[TadCurious]

Wrong. In broad terms, immigration is a form of corporate welfare meant to artificially expand the labor supply. That tilts the supply-and-demand balance of labor and wages in favor of rent-seeking business. That kind of government-mediated subsidy is a distortion of the labor market.

[OddBeMe]

So expanding consumer base isn’t a good idea?

[Agagagagaga]

We could just as easily sell American products overseas to customers there. Who live in their OWN country. Hell we could end the embargo on Cuba. We’ve expanded the customer base. Problem solved.

[OddBeMe]

@Agagagagaga what! Globalism! I thought you hated that!

We do that already. You’re blocking larger consumers here where small businesses can sell to them. Fckin commie.

[HighValue]

Illegal immigration isn't the same as legal immigration.
Legal immigrants have to show that they have an employable skill.
Illegal immigrants often are criminals, bring drugs into the USA, and use the system that they never paid into to receive benefits. Also, people that work and pay taxes have their money wasted on the kids of illegal immigrants.

[Oigit]

It's possible to be anti-illegal immigration and pro capitalism. The issue is that people can be quick to assume that because you are anti-illegal immigration you are completely against immigration.

[exitseven]

The flaw with that is that these people consume more resources than they contribute. They become a burden on society. Go to an emergency room some Friday night and see what I am talking about.

[OddBeMe]

Do you have a link or proof I could read? I just keep reading immigration is an economic plus.

[exitseven]

Immigration is an economic plus. Illegal immigration just like any other illegal activity is not.

[OddBeMe]

Why would it be different?

[OddBeMe]

Immigration is immigration.

[exitseven]

When my grandparents came to America they had to first be checked out by a doctor. If they had any communicable diseases they would be sent back. Then they had to have a sponsor, somebody who would guarantee they would not end up on welfare.
Illegal aliens come here with lots of medical conditions, some cost a lot of money to treat. They show up in the Emergency Rooms and use up resources that the elderly or poor who actually paid into the system should be getting. Then they do not need sponsors. They just show up at the southern border and are met by a translator who explains how to get a free EBT card and a free iPhone. These things are not free however. Taxpayers are picking up the tab. If these people work at all they work on a cash basis and pay no taxes. Meanwhile they are getting thousands of dollars worth of benefits. The taxpayer is the loser.

[RolandCuthbert]

Looking at things from the business end, that would be wrong. I want access to cheap labor. Immigrants are usually paid less.

[OddBeMe]

Costco pays their stock workers 30,000 salary. Why aren’t they out of business?

[RolandCuthbert]

Well, I don't pay folks minimum wage, man. But my positions require skills. I think the lowest I have ever paid someone in the last ten years was $37,000.

Then after a year, I gave him a huge raise.

I convinced my client he was a good find. And he was.

[Stoner710]

No, I don’t see what illegal immigration has to do with the free markets, people do move countries for economic reason which is part of a free market system but it’s not as black and white as that

[Miristheiss]

Your logic is messed up.
You can't just make such huge sweeping statements and draw some relationship to them.

[OddBeMe]

So allowing immigration would increase our consumer base (meaning more people buying shit). Need I prove that simplistic argument?

And thus creating economic increase to support the larger population.
www.cbpp.org/.../immigrants-contribute-greatly-to-us-economy-despite-administrations

[Agagagagaga]

Great. There are more people buying useless shit. Huzzah! Now if only I could go into a goddamn store and communicate in English with the staff. But I’m a dreamer. What can I say. 🤷‍♂️

[OddBeMe]

@Agagagagaga https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NelBNtNm8l0

[EssenceOfLight]

Of course it's highly anti-capitalist and significant idea of real socialism. Because preventing wage dumping caused by immigration means supporting working class.

[OddBeMe]

Is it caused by immigrants or by selfish corporations?

[andreasderjuengere]

Heh heh :D
Now let's add the question if ''capitalism'' is the ONLY option that offers us ''opportunity for everyone'' :P

[_Troian_]

I don't know if it is anti-captialist or not, I am against immigration myself so yeah I am Anti-Immigrant the only thing I know is thats just nationalistic which benefits your own country.

[Snakeyes7]

People come from all over the world, especially from very anti-capitalists nations like Cuba, just for a chance to be able to have the right to own their own property.

[Waldoe]

missing information... are you referring to "Legal" or "illegal" immigration? Felons should always go to Jail...

[OddBeMe]

Like a poor dad who steals bread for his children, there’s no difference.

[noohair]

The main function of a government is to control the boarders and protect the citizens from external threats.

[OddBeMe]

But immigration helps the country, not threaten,

[Sparks32]

Immigration threatens the west now the west has over population and thinning out of recourses make every thing like food and accommodation unaffordable. Muslim extremists wanting to conquer us through murder rapes and out breading us. The vast majority of the Australian public has always hated immigration yet here we are are now a great multicultural nation democracy never existed in the first place and now in our parliament if you are labelled a racist you aren't allow into discussions about race, Immigration or religion etc.

[noohair]

How many undereducated folks do you want to support.

[joeldalton]

If you're pro illegal immigration you're pro slavery and human sex trafficking.

[Soteris]

Those two things sounds highly capitalistic to me. The monetization and economic exploitation of sex and human beings for profit. You should propose it to the GOP, heard they did not have much of a legislative foundation to run on in the next election.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris hahaha, you are stupider than oddbeme. All the republicans have to so is point at the current economic situation caused by democrats in November 22. And your country is overrun with immigrants raping native-born swedes, so shut the fuck up.

[Soteris]

So you are not denying that slavery and sex trafficking is capitalistic? Good to know.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris you're not denying you're a complete moron.

[Soteris]

At least I am not a capitalist I guess. I find slavery and sexual trafficking to be abhorrent, someday maybe you will too.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris So you admit you're a moron. Therefore your opinion on everything can be discarded wholesale.

[Soteris]

Meh, the words of a moron is still as valid as any others, the words of someone who is immoral however is not. I feel that you are having the worse side of this trade.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris No, your moronic blabbering is just nonsense. It can be discarded wholesale.

[Soteris]

Only a fool discounts the word of a jester.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris You are implying you're humorous. You're just stupid.

[Soteris]

No, a clown is funny, a jester is a "fool". There is a difference which I am sure flies well and truly above your head no matter how far you shove it up your own ass.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris yawn. I love how you try to be edgy and tough. We all know you're a little manlet.

[Soteris]

No, I am just not an idiot like you are. Jesters, clowns, tricksters etc.. are archetypes used in world building. Interesting to know to be sure as it comes up in movies and other media but again, these things flies over your head as you have a comically bad grasp of reality.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris you're really boring, you know that?

[Soteris]

Good. I would hate it if I was entertaining to you.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris nah, it’s just pity at this point. It started as amusement.

[Soteris]

Shame, I would have thought I did a better job of wasting your time.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris you’re wasting your own time.

[Soteris]

I dont know. I have a lot of time so its not really a high value commodity.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris right, cause you’re a loser.

[Soteris]

But I am at least not a filthy capitalist intent on profiting from sex trafficking and slavery.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris yes you are. You cheer for illegal immigration.

[Soteris]

How can immigration be illegal without you sounding stupid?

[joeldalton]

@Soteris Are you fucking retarded?

[Soteris]

Why? Because I am asking questions you can't answer?

[joeldalton]

@Soteris You're retarded if you don't understand what the phrase "illegal immigration" means. I'll give you the wikipedia since you lack a 3rd grader's knowledge of the world:

Illegal immigration is the migration of people into a country in violation of the immigration laws of that country or the continued residence without the legal right to live in that country.

[Soteris]

Oh noes! They violated the law and crossed an arbitrary line in the sand! What a crime against humanity. Think of all the victims!

[joeldalton]

@Soteris yeah, the victims of human trafficking and slavery conditions. Which you apparently support. So let's review. You fully support people being brought into the US as sex slaves and support immigrants coming into your country to gang rape the citizens.

[Soteris]

Ah yes, all the things capitalism is known for. Truly the root of all evil, only problem is that it has nothing to do with why immigration is illegal and if anything scrapping that stupid law would solve all those problems.

Thanks for making my argument for me.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris you’re truly one of the top three stupidest people on this site. Try going over the border illegally in a socialist country and let me know how that works out for you. Nice to know you support rape and human trafficking, like most commies you like spreading misery.

[Soteris]

I have crossed plenty of borders. Its kind of a thing here in Europe. Still can't for the life of me figure out a single valid reason why it should be illegal.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris you did so within the law dumb fuck. Go walk over the border to North Korea and tell them your bullshit.

[Soteris]

So it is okey if its not against the law? Then once again, its the law that is the problem here and not the illegal immigration part.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris I’m waiting for your report back on how successfully you’ve argued your bullshit to the North Koreans.

[Soteris]

As opposed to you arguing the benefits of their border policy?

[joeldalton]

@Soteris I'm waiting. Head over there or shut the fuck up.

[Soteris]

I can't. Because the shittiest country in the world has an equally shitty border law. Almost like its a hallmark of a shitty country.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris so the idea that it's capitalist was just blown up, you moron. what country doesn't have a border with laws?

[Soteris]

What makes you think that just because something is a trait of capitalism means it has to be exclusive to it?

[joeldalton]

@Soteris which country doesn't have a border with laws?

[Soteris]

... The EU? Tons of countries earlier in human history? A better version of USA?

[joeldalton]

@Soteris bullshit. They all have immigration laws.

[Soteris]

Then why can I go between countries and how on earth do you think people in for example the medieval era could possibly enforce or even track the movement of people?

[joeldalton]

@Soteris because you go legally you bell end.

[Soteris]

So if it was legal everywhere else then there would be no problems? Funny how that is always where we come back to in this conversation.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris there are zero countries that allow unlimited migration.

[Soteris]

It used to be normal as countries were literally unable to enforce immigration laws before modern times but that is besides the point. It works within the EU perfectly well and you have yet to provide a single example of why it is bad aside from it being "illegal".

[joeldalton]

@Soteris I gave two in my original reply. Moron.

[Soteris]

No you did not.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris absolutely did. I can’t help you’re an idiot who can’t understand normal thinking.

[Soteris]

I have gone to great length to explain why nothing you have said is of any value and why there is no real valid reason to have border laws.

[joeldalton]

@Soteris lmao. you've done nothing of the sort. You've shown anyone dumb enough to read this thread what an idiot you are.

[Soteris]

Again, do show me why you need immigration laws because I am thoroughly unconvinced.

[OddBeMe]

@Soteris Joel hates competing with migrants for shitty jobs. But thats all he can get.

[Soteris]

My favorite part about brexit is that the British was complaining about all the low skilled workers coming over from Europe so they wanted a point based immigration system.

In other words they wanted the immigrants to take all the good high paying jobs and leave all the low skilled and worthless jobs to the native population. Brilliant move, nationalism wins again.

[OddBeMe]

@Soteris and all the success stories are about people who tested well. Not the dropouts.

[joeldalton]

@OddBeMe and you’re excited with the opportunity to fuck Hispanic children.

[OddBeMe]

No, I’m happy with my Latina wife. You masturbate to whatever you want.

[SignedAutographs]

True

[msc545]

Yes of course it is.