If abortion is murder, are you willing to sentence women getting an abortion as a murder?

[VanillaSalt]

Include a reason please.

Yes. Murder is murder.

No. Abortion IS murder but I wouldn’t sentence women for it.

Abortion is NOT murder.

Updates

1 y

If we see unborn babies as alive then killing them is murder right? Therefore some sentencing would be necessary even if we consider it differently then straight murder.

I do not like the idea of sending women whom abort to prison BUT… The real benefit of repealing Roe v Wade isn’t banning abortion… it’s forcing young men and women to understand there are consequences for having promiscuous and unprotected sex.

That being said… if there’s a loophole it’s GOING to be used.

[SaoirseS]

All too often I see people reaching for some state fetal homicide laws: if a man kills a pregnant woman and her developing baby, it's a double homicide. But alas, not all states have fetal homicide (feticide) laws. Also, in ending the developing life, it wasn't the woman's choice to do so. No, abortion is not murder.

If you want to believe that life starts at conception for spiritual, religious, personal reasons that's up to you. Even some science supports it, such as the fetal heartbeart, separate DNA, etc. With that considered, a fetus depends entirely on the mother for sustenance and does not draw a breath until birth. But it's funny that while the life beginning at conception crowd may believe this and continue to chant it, government and even religion doesn't support it. A fetus cannot be claimed as a dependent on an income tax for deduction or tax credit, because (as Treasury and IRS have officially ruled) a fetus is not yet a person. You can't apply for a Social Security Number without a certificate of life birth. You can't insure a fetus, because the insurance industry "cannot insure a life that does not yet exist." From a religious standpoint, the first recordable event in a child's life is baptism, which requires live birth first.

I cannot apply for a certificate of stillbirth or death of a fetus in utero unless it reaches 20 weeks or later. Except for stillbirth, any such record - even if the fetus is named - is for the parents' commemorative purposes, and serves no other purpose. Parents may choose to bury or cremate the remains of a fetus miscarried (spontaneously aborted, even if they are only artifacts of a dilation & curettage procedure which are indistinguishable as fetal remains). This is all a matter of belief, and of choice.

The question of where life begins also gives rise to the question where does life end? To the religious or spiritual (or any personal belief), that there is an afterlife is a purely faith-based belief, unsupported by any real evidence. I know from daily practice what happens to one's mortal remains - it's pretty yucky.

[VanillaSalt]

I like this answer more then most. You bring up many sides and good points. I think… it’s a matter of morality and what best benefits society… to the lowest point the greatest benefit to society would be people believing sex is for children and children are the future. I don’t believe promiscuity is a good thing and so anything that supports such actions should be closely controlled. When we had abortion without limitation it became a freaking fad to abort babies and brag… This makes women believe there’s always abortion if I fuck up so I don’t have to take responsibility. I think propping up this type of thinkings bad. “Give them an inch and they take a mile.” We need people to believe if they have sex they might be forced to bare real consequence for the rest of their lives. Nobody likes consequences but without them why would we avoid making bad decisions if there was no consequences?

This leads me to my thought. If we’re doing this go all the way. Make the consequence real and unavoidable so that the fewest suffer possible. Niccolò Machiavelli said in in the prince that it’s better for a leader to be feared rather then loved and that they needed to be, I’m paraphrasing here, a leader shouldn’t be concerned for their reputation and should apply “cruelties” all at once so as to not repeat them. I read this as make an example without consideration to what people think of you so as to stop others from making the same mistakes.

Basically… if we’re gonna call it murder we should treat it as murder.

[Anonymous]

Abortion doesn't meet the definition for murder.

@LimitedBenefits101.
“Prison is light for these pro choice
DEATH PENALTY will do the job perfectly”
Well you can take comfort in the fact that pregnancy and/or child birth can be a death penalty for some women.

[VanillaSalt]

Punching a woman in the stomach meets the definition so abortion also does…

Let’s also not pretend that it’s a significant % of women that die in child birth either OR that they didn’t give consent when they had sex.

[Opinion Owner]

It’s unlawful for you to punch a woman in the stomach. 🫤
If even one woman dies as a result of pregnancy/childbirth, then my statement is accurate.

[VanillaSalt]

You misunderstand. If you cause a miscarriage due to criminal actions your subject to homicide. If you do it with intent your subject to murder.

[Opinion Owner]

I’m sorry? What is your argument here? If a woman can legally choose an abortion, are you asking why is it criminal if someone else makes that choice for her?

[VanillaSalt]

If a person hurts the mother and the baby dies the life is a life and they are considered to have murdered the baby but if the mother don’t want it it’s not considered a life and they only aborted a fetus… what is my argument?

[Opinion Owner]

Think of it like this.
If I throw myself off a bridge into a line of traffic and survive, I will not be charged with attempted murder.
If you throw me off a bridge into a line of traffic and I survive you will be charged with attempted murder.

[VanillaSalt]

Think of it like this… because the mother wants the baby it’s murder… because she don’t it’s not…

[Opinion Owner]

If you causes a miscarriage in a women who was on her way to have an abortion, the repercussions of your actions would be the same.

[VanillaSalt]

Ok first off no it wouldn’t the jury would consider the abortion I’m sure…

But aside from that how the law views the child depending on who’s doing what isn’t uniform. The law must be uniform. Either your killing a baby or your aborting a fetus. It should be applied uniform across all systems.

[Opinion Owner]

You would still be charged. What the jury would consider is irrelevant to the point. 🤦🏻‍♀️
The law is uniform. I have the right to make decisions for my body. That doesn’t mean that you can come along and make different decisions for my body.
Any random pregnant woman you pass on the street is probably happy about her pregnancy. Just because some other woman, who has nothing to do with either of you, has the choice to have an abortion, you think it should be okay to cause this woman a miscarriage? Are you really arguing that there shouldn’t be accountability for that?

[VanillaSalt]

Stop being stupid. I’m arguing the opposite… if we hold the stranger for murder we should hold the mother for murder in cases of abortion.

Also judges consider circumstance when considering sentencing. I didn’t mean the jury. Besides this it’s hilarious to me that a woman CAN argue she has the right to abort and be on the way to the clinic to abort and then get defensive the strangers actions costed her the baby.

[Opinion Owner]

You can’t understand why I can do something to myself but it’s a crime when you do it to me, and I’m the one being stupid?
I think I’ll bow out before I get blocked from this conversation for not agreeing with you.
And don’t cry about you not doing that kind of thing, because I have seen you do it before.
Good day

[VanillaSalt]

Yes your being, at best stupid, at worst twisting my words. Your one of them people that say you understand without letting people finish a sentence.

I really don’t give 2 shits and a fuck about your rights. I wanna know why the baby has different rights based off if the mother wants it or not… but you already understood that didn’t ya… you run ya mouth then twist my words while acting stupid… damn straight I’m about to remove you from this conversation.

[ChrisMaster69]

Okay, a doctor advises a mother they have detected a lethal birth defect.

Does the doctor stay quiet and let the mother give birth to a baby that will 100% die within x days and will need life support turned off.

Then obviously turning off the life support will be murder,

A woman is diagnosed with cancer, she finds this while having tests for her pregnancy at 10 weeks.

the options are no chemotherapy, as the doctors could with hold any treatment as they do not want to be tired for murder, and she dies and potentially miscarries due to her dying.

she has chemotherapy and undergoes an abortion, then faces murder charges along with the medical team.

https://twitter.com/lpackard/status/1541895344505634817

https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/99459

as it says in the link above, at some point a doctor will have to advise a woman they have detected a lethal birth defect and she needs to carry it to term.

imagine the sheer mental anguish on a couple, they have to wait say 7 months simply to have a dead child.

Seven months of depression, mental health issues, all because of stupidity.

where as if she lived in a non stupid place, she could abort and try again, yes there would be mental anguish over the abortion but not from actually taking it full term.

[VanillaSalt]

Your as bad as these women crying about rape as though it’s even 10% of abortion cases… Let me get started…

Turning off life support for terminal patients or for patients is an option for the parent or guardian for even adults these days so bullshit argument. Your not ending a functioning life.

Even here in Texas where we are the MOST anti-abortion and block abortion in rape and incest cases we allow abortion if the mother needs medical treatment. There’s a clause for the mothers medical care so again bullshit.

Women are proven to go through chemical imbalances with abortions and miscarriages and severe depression after the fact as well… even if they didn’t want the child.

Let’s not pretend these women are mentally anguishing over anything but their perceived right to murder their babies. Your comment was so full of fallacies I couldn’t consider even one of your points…

[ChrisMaster69]

So you would let a woman, you wife, go to term knowing 100% it would end up on a mortuary slab within 2 weeks?

How cruel can a person get.

Oh so it’s not murder for cancer etc. that makes it not murder for the rest,

Amazing how callous and uncaring about a persons well being someone can be.

Those are real things that happen, however shoving your head in the sand is typical

Makes me sick just how pathetic some people are and how little they actually care.

What is the difference then between an abortion at 10 weeks when the doctor says it has lethal abnormalities and turning off life support at 6 days?

Explain what the difference is?

You are letting a pregnancy go to term, the risk of child birth, the pain the baby feels during birth, the potential pain it feels for those 6 days.

But no, let’s let it suffer.

[VanillaSalt]

Your trading a life for a life not a life for a situation…

There’s a video of a mentally disabled person telling people himself he values his life… you support taking away his chance to life because you don’t think his life’s worth the effort…

How self-righteous of you.

You talk about me sticking my head in the sand and your pointing out a minority of cases as examples…

The difference is chance. It’s possible to ultrasounds we’re misread or for deformities to repair themselves… That’s the difference.

Pains a part of life. Just because you judge a person life as unfair or filled with misery does not give you the right to end their life. Otherwise I could say your just pathetic and the quality of your life don’t justify the effort and resources keeping you alive and end you myself.

It’s not up to you to decide of a persons life is of sufficient quality to justify their existence. You can’t even legally do that for yourself in most places.

[ChrisMaster69]

It’s not my choice it’s a medical professionals

Pain is part of life

Keep telling yourself that if your wife becomes pregnant or daughter and has to go through being told it’s a lethal deformity. It’s only pain , granted it’s your pain not mine…

[VanillaSalt]

No it’s a medical professionals OPINION not choice… it’s still your choice.

Thanks for regurgitating my exact argument back at me and proving my point.

If it’s lethal I will expect a full pregnancy and hope for the best then I’ll console my wife after with our failure and try again because like you said pain is a part of life… you don’t quit just because something looks difficult or impossible.

[ChrisMaster69]

Shocking how cruel someone can be to another person
Shows how little regard a person has for another mental health.
Will you leave the decision to turn life support off to your wife then?
Or can your conscious manage eventually killing at day 6.
In the mean time you have out your wife through what must be one of the worst experiences a mother can go through.

[VanillaSalt]

It’s not comparable. Yes I would leave it to her but that’s a decision I made for MYSELF. And yes Ide shut her life support off under the right circumstances. But again this is after the opportunity to live is past. An extra days better then none.

Stop trying to avoid sadness! Suffering and struggle is life. Every moment of suffering makes you stronger. Nothing cannot be faced head on if you work with someone you trust. I’m tired of this discussion.

[Chazmatazz269]

In the grander scheme, it’s not that simple. However, let’s look at some black and white facts for a change.
Every state in the US has some sort of legislation or precedent that makes killing an unborn child a crime, accidental or intentional. Furthermore, if you are involved in the death of a pregnant woman and the unborn child cannot be saved, you are likely to face twice the charges. So we have already decided as a society that an unborn child is worth protecting by law. The original decision of Roe v Wade was a loose interpretation of the constitution at best and it created a class of people for whom killing an unborn child was a “right” while it remains a crime for everyone else. Let that sink in for a minute. Now, the actual wording of the 14th amendment demands equal protections under the law, no interpretation required. So how was the original decision ever codified as constitutional? The overturning of Roe v Wade was the right decision and now it’s up to the people of this country and their representatives to influence legislature that matches contemporary values and morals, state by state. “And that’s all i’ve got to say about that.”

[Jamie05rhs]

No, because that wouldn't be fair. Because a lot of women have been brainwashed to believe that it isn't murder. This propaganda campaign has been waged by Planned Parenthood Federation, NARAL, and the DNC, as well as the media.

So at this point I wouldn't really expect women to know right from wrong. For that reason, I do not believe that it is ethical to prosecute them.

[VanillaSalt]

I have a few problems with this. First to be sentenced you must be found guilty and either have intent to break the law or have broken the law due to negligence. Ignorance has never been a defense and most definitely disagreeing with the law isn’t therefore brainwashing isn’t an acceptable defense. Now I could see murder being taken off the table but generally a person with a mental problem would be locked up until their safe to release so even mental instability does not absolve you of all consequence. If not murder then manslaughter?

[Jamie05rhs]

@VanillaSalt I'll give you an analogy: What if you had a 4-year-old kid raised in a household where they had free access to the kitchen and got to eat whatever they want whenever they want to. Could you legitimately charge them for theft if they steal something at the grocery store?

[VanillaSalt]

There’s a difference between a child understanding the law and an adult. And remember we’re not arguing agreeing or understanding the morality of it all we’re arguing the legality. The law is clear abortions illegal. Abortion just needs to be defined as ending the life of a baby and it’s murder.

[Jamie05rhs]

@VanillaSalt I understand what you're saying. I'm just still not convinced that it's appropriate to charge a woman with murder for having an abortion.

[VanillaSalt]

I’m not convinced taking away abortions a good thing. SHOULD it be a right… I think yes… SHOULD women want to abort… I think no. But if we are going to make it illegal then we should take it all the way. Half-assing anything gives undesired results and helps no one.

[Jamie05rhs]

@VanillaSalt There is precedent for "half-assing" legal policies, though. Take marijuana laws, for example.

[VanillaSalt]

Idc about precedent so much as what’s best for society. Having consequence for poor choices prevents people from making these poor choices in most cases… case in point defund the police and the handling of crimes in Democrat ran districts compared to the rise of crime.

[Jamie05rhs]

Hmm. Fair point, I suppose.

[jshm2]

and the doctor/nurse doing the procedure as abetting murder, I suppose.

[VanillaSalt]

If murders murder then yes why not?

[LimitedBenefits101]

Prison is light for these pro choice
DEATH PENALTY will do the job perfectly

[Anonymous]

No because abortion isn't murder.

[Opinion Owner]

I'd rather make pro-lifers put their money where their mouth is and adopt these children... you know, since they care so much about them. If they can't do that then they should be charged with child abuse because that's what happens to these unwanted children who grow up in the system.

[VanillaSalt]

I don’t see how you’d charge pro-lifers for child abuse when it’s the system that mistreats them. Arguably the mothers and fathers have complicity in the child abuse but I don’t see the correlation with pro-lifers.

[Opinion Owner]

Because it's pro-lifers who want to put them there. The mother doesn't, she wants to abort it, and she SHOULD have every right to do exactly that.

Yes, you can argue that the parents fucked up, and I won't disagree but why should a child have to suffer and start life at a huge disadvantage because their parents were irresponsible and reckless? The parents know they fucked up and aren't fit to be parents. Pro-lifers are fine with the kid staying with unfit parents OR throwing them in our already overcrowded system. It wasn't any of their business but they wanted it to be and now it IS their business and they are responsible.

[Opinion Owner]

I'm not going to get into a huge "debate" about this again, but that's my answer to your question.

[VanillaSalt]

You didn’t just answer my question though. You gave more information not part of my question and now you don’t want to debate? That’s fine you can just not reply while I leave my opinion.

The parents, mainly the mother, CHOSE to have sex. She has as much responsibility in conception as the father with extra risks so she shoulders responsibility equal to the burden.

There is no comparison in responsibility between a man and woman in children. Women hold equal choice in copulation, majority of the risk in pregnancy, and all the final say in the follow through therefore responsibility belongs almost completely to the mother.

[Opinion Owner]

My response to my opinion was just my food for thought "no because abortion isn't murder." Was my answer. I don't see how that isn't part of your question, considering that's what option C was.

Abortion isn't murder so I don't believe a woman who gets an abortion should be treated as if they are a murderer. A fetus isn't a person, the only "crime" that she committed was preventing potential life from becoming life.

My phone is dying so have a good night man.

[Opinion Owner]

Nvm I see where I misread. My bad. Still have a good night

[SmokinAces2000]

That’s ridiculous

[jimmy2]

It is possible