How big a price are you willing to pay to have Ukraine and Finland join NATO?

[KelleyNice]

Is it worth the death of more than 200 million Americans? In 1962 the Cuban Missile Crisis confrontation is often considered the closest the Cold War came to escalating into a full-scale nuclear war. For over 30 years, Russia has tolerated the expansion of NATO, in spite of Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990.

Finally, Russia has drawn a line in the sand—“No more NATO on their borders.” On February 28, Putin directed that Russia’s nuclear deterrent forces be placed on high alert. The first use of nuclear weapons will most likely escalate into a full scale nuclear war because the country that first does a full scale nuclear attack has the advantage.

According to the Federation of American Scientists, Russia has 5,977 nuclear warheads and experts estimate around 1,500 Russian warheads are currently "deployed", meaning sited at missile and bomber bases or on submarines at sea.

1,000 nuclear bombs on the USA would immediately kill 170 million American and another 100 million would die from radiation, starvation, and disease. Is that worth having two more NATO countries on Russia’s border?

[DJB72]

Your generation gets the consequences of this standoff the same way mine got the consequences of the Cuban missile crisis.

Putin has shown he's prepared to invade non-nato territory with a NATO border (Ukraine, Crimea) and it's only a matter of time before he takes the next logical steps - Finland and Sweden. So inviting them to join secures a massive border and nations that reach right to the heart of Europe.

The difference is Kennedy had seen action as a soldier. None of the recent candidates except the Late John McCain had to my knowledge.

Being a soldier changes how you view war. William or Harry would be sound kings for England because they were both recently soldiers. Andrew - despite his recent fucked up history - was a pilot on active service in the Falklands War so from that perspective could be a good advisor.

How big a price would I pay for my son's life? I'd gladly sacrifice my own to protect him. You'll learn that as you get older if you have kids. If you have a good father, he'll sacrifice himself to save you. That's how it works.

Fathers in Ukraine have packed their families into refugee convoys and gone back to face trained soldiers armed only with scythes and pitchforks in some cases.

THAT'S the price we'll pay if we're Men.

If we're not, we'll say we have bone spurs...

[Sixgunsound]

This☝️

[DWornock]

I'm not willing to pay any price. We have no business over there. If Finland attempts to Join NATO, Russia needs to invade and remove their leaders and replace them with reasonable people. If the USA dares to come to Finland's aid, Russia will kick their butts up one side and down the other. And, the USA will not dare use Nukes because, if they do, the USA is history and 3 months after the nukes and 300 million Americans die, China will take over what used to be the USA and populate it will 100 to 200 million Chinese.

Unlike the USA, Russia will survive a nuclear war because they are too large; Over half of Russia has only 1 to 20 people per square mile. Other than Alaska, in the USA, there is no way to escape the radiation so what the blast and heat doesn't kill, the radiation will.

[Snsl153]

This whole situation is just ridiculous, and it's spiraling out of control. I simply cannot believe how utterly out of touch and lacking in empathy the leaders of NATO are, how they cannot grasp the simple point that the very existence of NATO is perceived as being a threat to Russia by ordinary Russians, especially those few who are old enough to remember the German invasion of 1941 which resulted in approximately 28 million Russian deaths.

With the exception of one (from the Mongols back in the 13th century) every single invasion of Russia came from the west. Invasions by Poland, Sweden, France (Napoleon), and Germany (twice, second time by the Nazis), to list just a few that immediately come to mind. During the Russian Civil War after the Revolution, Russia was even invaded by the Czechs and Japanese, along with the British and Americans. All of this is well-known in Russia, but in the West most people would probably say, "Eh? What? But, but... they rigged our elections, and we got Trump".

Oh yes, and another thing. Russia's elections were rigged back in the 1990's (1996) by... can you guess who? AMERICA! The CIA wanted Yeltsin to win, and due to their meddling he did.

[alice55]

Putin is a cowards it's been months he's threatening us but he haven't done anything... Also Finland is already in Otan along with Sweden. Ukraine I think would never join Otan. We should have put them in NATO back in 2008 but now they would never cause it would mean they need to take back Crimea but European would never dare declare war on Russia I'm even pretty sure that Putin could invade Poland and the Baltic states without European moving their ass to defend them...

Both Germany and France keep licking boots of Putin since so man-years they're too afraid of him to do anything.

But it make me wonder why didn't Putin just put his country into the EU? This ways he would have block every stuff he didn't liked about EU (since in the EU all 27 countries must say yes if not the laws is not applied, he could have blocked absolutely everything e didn't like).

[DryGermanGuy]

Finland and Sweden have only applied for NATO membership, they are not members yet.

[alice55]

@DryGermanGuy Weird I thoughts they were already accepted, it's crazy to make them wait, we need to accept directly.

[DryGermanGuy]

Turkey decided to hold up the show (and could still potentially stop it).

[alice55]

@DryGermanGuy I thought they stopped bothering everyone and accepted. Turkey is really annoying to do this and it's definitely not helping them enter the EU (though I'm pretty sure they're never gonna get accepted).
We should really just ignore them and accept them into NATO, I mean there's a threat of invasion / war so

[DryGermanGuy]

Erdoğan has threatened once again to “freeze” Sweden and Finland’s Nato bids unless the military alliance complies with his conditions. “I want to reiterate once again that we will freeze the process if these countries do not take the necessary steps to fulfil our conditions,” he said. Last month, Erdoğan urged the two countries to “do their part” in the fight against terrorism, accusing them of providing a haven for outlawed Kurdish militants.

www.theguardian.com/.../russia-ukraine-war-at-a-glance-what-we-know-on-day-146-of-the-invasion

[alice55]

@DryGermanGuy I saw it on tv yesterday, he make me want to kick him out of Otan he's seriously annoying. He act like a freaking dictator and he want to enter the UE

[ChrisMaster69]

There will be no war.

this is about how far you let the school yard bully pick on the other kids and take their money.

Some kids get fed up and beat up the bully, keeping others safe.

Some kids run scared and don’t do anything.

There is a price to freedom, not supporting Ukraine, means not supporting Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Poland.

which would create a hot global war very quickly with highly increased use of tactical dial-able yield nukes.

There were already agreements of understanding with Sweden and Finland.

If Russia had of attacked either, the response from NATO would have been faster and more direct.

With the problems the Russians have been having with their missiles (blowing up launch area, failing in flight, not exploding, missing targets, going in opposite direction), then I would how many of those missiles actually work.

[ChrisMaster69]

Oh and the actual Head of NATO is Norway, by virtue of its current leader.

Jens Stoltenberg became NATO Secretary General.

[KelleyNice]

The lies by mainstream media is what the USA wants you to believe and apparently you believe the lies.

[ChrisMaster69]

Erm see that’s the thing, I don’t give a shit about what the media says.

I am basing this purely on having worked professionally within NATO in a military capacity.

Things such as roulement of aircraft squadrons supporting NATO QRA.

Those decisions come from NATO and not specific countries.

The current chair of the military side if from The Netherlands.

Only one of us has taken part in NATO conflicts and exercises.

The thing is, you are using American political logic when rest of the world does not actually give a fly fuck about American politics.

We tend not to believe conspiracy theories, nor do we believe politicians nor the media.

We accept that what comes out of the media is often just utter bollox.

[Kaneki05]

No country would win in a nuclear war in this world at the moment so it wouldn't be a price as it won't happen and if it does well everyone is dead anyway so who's left to care. There is no advantage to been first as the country is hitting won't be the only country firing back.
Also they would not use that many on america not only would that be pointless since not that many is needed to wipe out a counties defences, the aftermath would actually just end the world for human life since the sun would be blocked out.
Russia can only do two things fight a losing war while america just sits and watch or Russia can lose by america a reason to send in their troops. And there would be a Geneva Protocol on Nuclear weapons just like in WW2 with Gas were it wasn't allowed to be used as even Nazi's new it would be a bad idea to fight fire with fire like that.

[KelleyNice]

Did you never see the movie, War Games? "Back at the war room they believe you can win a nuclear war; there can be acceptable losses."

[Kaneki05]

Movies are not accurate depictions of real life lmao.

[KelleyNice]

Therefore, you can predict with certainly what Putin and the USA will do.

[Kaneki05]

No because movies are fiction does not mean one can predict what two countries will do. That makes 0 sense. I don't know why your bringing up movies into this maybe you need to read up on factual studies on how nuclear weapons work and how the Geneva Protocol worked because that will help one understand how war works not some film.

[KelleyNice]

You are the one claiming you know what Russia and the USA will do; not I.

[Kaneki05]

Yes? That is kinda my whole point lol.

[qwert1234]

I doubt Russia would launch nukes to USA.

In the event they do, it'll be mostly a one-sided destruction.

USA has allies that exists on both sides of Russia.

USA can actually counter most nukes going their way.

But, can Russia counter US and allied nukes?

In the end, chances are, Russia gets screwed, USA gets moderately (or less) screwed.

China wins.

Also, we're talking about stockpiles. Given Russia's performance on Ukraine front, how well maintained are those nukes?

[DoctorSex]

Do you understand that it would only take one modern styled nuke, not even hitting Russia, but exploding on the boarder, to cause a nuclear winter in Europe for at least 2 decades?

[KelleyNice]

Anyone that believes the lies about Russia's capabilities from mainstream media is an indoctrinated fool. The USA was able to shoot down one missile when all the parameters are known. There is no defense against a large scale attack. warisboring.com/.../

[qwert1234]

Ok assuming I am wrong.
The question can be turned to Russia. Will they sacrifice millions of people to pre-emptively nuke countries because a few of them joined Nato? Knowing that even before their nukes hit, those other countries nukes are already coming down on them as well?

If you say yes, then yes, US will sacrifice a few million to have those countries join Nato.
Russia launching nukes means US and allies launch nukes. Simple. And here's why we have deterrence, because of the mutually assured destruction.

In the end, those who are not involved wins.
US and EU in ruins, Russia is in ruins.
China picks up the pieces and becomes #1 superpower... ah wait, US Navy still probably exists, so China may still be #2.
India #3 and whoever rebuilds faster can be #4, onwards.

[KelleyNice]

The USA threatened Nuclear War over the Cuban Missile Crises. There is no reason to believe Russia will not do the same. Then if the USA doesn't back down, they are history. With a similar number of nukes and twice the land area, Russia has the advantage. The fact that so many Americans believe USA can win a nuclear war is scary.

[DoctorSex]

@kelleynice how are you 13, yet have so much more sense than those older than you?

There is no winning a nuclear war. One successful nuke landing, is the end of life as we know it. Putin has already said that it is better no world at all, than a world without Russia.
Putin understands the result of a nuclear attack.

Americans are really strange at times, they have a strange concept of a "nuclear war". As if they can just launch nukes and carry on with their lives as they know it.

[KelleyNice]

@DoctorSex I find it scary that so many, perhaps a large majority of, Americans believe that just because we could destroy Iraq, we can fight a country such as Russia with few repercussions.

[KelleyNice]

@qwert1234 "US will sacrifice a few million to have those countries join Nato." More like 200 million. Unlike you, I'm not willing to pay that price.

[qwert1234]

Who said I am willing lol. I am not the US. I said the US is willing. They sent soldiers in Vietnam war, right? They willingly sent soldiers to die overseas. What made you think they are unwilling to do this.

One successful nuke landing, is the end of life as we know it. - nope.
The largest nuclear explosion recorded was Tsar Bomba - granted that it was detonated on an uninhabited island - it did not end the life as we know it. Sure, it'll be a lot different, say, it was detonated on New York or Moscow - but it will not end life as we know it, not even 10 nukes.

Look, I am not downplaying a nuclear war is catastrophic. We have been several times got close to a few minutes to midnight.
Countries will not launch nukes just because they can. They will threaten all they want, but a higher percentage of chance is that there will be back-channel negotiations before that can happen.

The US threatened nuclear war over Cuban Missile Crisis - yes, keyword: threaten. While there was no actual war back then, it was an era known as a Cold War - a times much more dangerous than Russia invading Ukraine. People speculated - like you did here, that it'll end with WW3 or a nuclear war.
No nuclear war happened.
Russia invaded Afghanistan. They could've used nukes - but they didn't.
People thought Russia annexing Crimea would break down into war - it didn't.

Why do you think this will result in one.

And why do you think that Russia "should stop" Nato expansion? There is literally 0 treaty that says Nato cannot expand. It was a word of a previous politician over a previous era.
Putin has every right to be paranoid, but has 0 right to control what another sovereign country decides to do on their place.

Why do you think these countries are even joining Nato? Maybe, just maybe because they have a crazy neighbor who has nothing better to offer them.

[Adaeva]

I wouldn't pay one cent. The USA is clearly a lying aggressive nation and if they are foolish enough to take on Russia the USA will quickly run with their tails between their legs. The Vietcong defeated the USA and the fools think they can defeat Russia. If it is a conventional war, the incompetent USA will be defeated in less than a year.

[Sixgunsound]

I’d be willing to bet somewhere north of 98% of people who are tearing their hair and wailing about Ukraine right now couldn’t point to it on a map five years ago nor did they have any concern for it whatsoever until their screens told them to.

[Alexandrubaschet08]

Russia! It is worty to have to go back in the cave era by having USA, France and UK NUKS in all your major citys?

And another and grates Barbarosa operation? Just because you are a crazy nation who think have something to say?

Nobady give a fuck about what Russia say. As an ex-communist nation today you suck my dick because you can't attack me.

All the ex-communist block and soviets republics think the same. We fucking dare you bitch

[Snsl153]

Oh for god's sake, learn how to spell! "Worty"? It's "cities" (plural), not "citys"! And your basic message here is really juvenile, because you seem to think that a global nuclear war (Russia has many "nukes" too you know) would be like some daft computer game.

[Alexandrubaschet08]

Ghet aut of za internet if iu tinc iu ar tu smart. I spic hou eve i uant. Ai em not englis spicar.

[andreasderjuengere]

I find the NATO to be a self-serving cheering club.

And very much outdated when it comes to its original purpose.

As a single person: I quit NATO when I chose to live somewhere else.

So: nuke yourselves if you please to do so... I'm at a relatively safe distance from that nonsense.

[ArtemisSilver]

The war is pretty likely to occur regardless of who does or doesn't join NATO. It's intended to extremely reduce the world population and provide justification for a militarized world government. The real question is if it will be lead by the west or Russia and China.

[letuswaltzforthedead]

The issue is you dont want to push Russia into the worst case scenario but the United States has pretty much allowed both Russia and China to run the world for decades now, this is simply a consequence of that. I highly doubt that either Russia or The US will actually engage in a nuclear war. If Russia was fearful of the US, it doesn't seem like this invasion would have occurred (it could have occurred earlier, things could have gotten worse sooner following 2014).

[spartan55]

Although Russia has nuclear triad capabilities like the US, our submarines are far superior and can carry more nukes. I like our bomber capabilites better as well. Russia has nothing like the B21 or the B52. We can launch nukes from Russia's backyard with our submarines, they cannot.

[TheFlak38]

Russia is a third world soviet shitskin country that will never rest until the entire West has become communist. The fact alone that they turned half the planet upside-down with their full scale invasion is enough proof that NATO didn't do enough against this shitskin soviet shithole. I'm sure the babies Russia is bombing these days are very guilty of NATO expansion, or Nazi expansion, or EU expansion or whatever the fuck all Putin shills come up with while masturbating to him.

[DoctorSex]

It would only take 1 modern styled nuke to end Europe as we know it. It's strange to me that people are talking about nuking Russia as though the effects wouldn't destroy life as we know it on planet earth.

[007kingifrit]

it's a fraction of the cost of what it would be to let russia do what it wants. this saves us a lot of money in the long run because russia can no longer interfere in the rest of the world. we will strangle them for a generation and ruin their economy for a century. that's a bargain

[Anonymous]

Honestly I vote America removes itself from NATO and focuses itself on it's own issues rather then worrying what others are doing. continuing to be the world police for countries that don't desire to protect themselves is pointless.

[Anonymous]

You Americunts and Russiatards will end up destroying the world for your own selfish interests. The Germans should have won WW2.

[DryGermanGuy]

There is no price to pay for Sweden's and Finland's NATO membership. Putin already feigned nonchalance about it in several press conferences.

[abc3643]

There is not going to be a nuclear war if Finland and Ukraine joins NATO.

[KelleyNice]

I wouldn't bet my life on it. If Finland joins NATO and Russia invades to prevent nuclear weapons, the USA is obligated to defend NATO countries and, either we back down and don't defend Finland or else that is war. The USA cannot win a conventional war with Russia in their own back yard without the draft at a cost that is politically acceptable, if at all. And, if neither side is willing to lose, nukes will be used and the USA and Russia are history.

[abc3643]

Russia won't invade Finland.
It did that already in 1940.
Norway is also on the border with Russia and Norway has been a NATO member since Day 1.

[abc3643]

The USA and allies would not bother with a ground war - they wouldn't be a war, period.
You underestimate the nature of warfare now... and that's all I can say because I worked in a defense industry think tank 30 years ago and just have to leave it at that.

[peedy]

I think we (the USA) should get out of Nato let it fall apart its control by the globalist they are the real enemy

[love_conquers_lust]

There are US nuclear subs all around Russia. They’re utterly screwed if they start something. Russia would become a wasteland.

On top of that, Russia isn’t going to nuke anything. They’re too globalized.

[Juxtapose]

The question is, is Putin proud enough to die for his pride?

People will not let him live if he launches nukes, the black market will be littered with contracts put on his life.

[Juxtapose]

I do think that what NATO is doing is retarded though.

[ManHater]

Honeslty let russia have it. Urkain is a very corrupt country. You think it's a clean country. laugh far from it.

[KrakenAttackin]

No, it's not worth it, but a launch by Putin will mean the death of every Russian.

[KelleyNice]

Not really because Russia is twice the size of the USA and most of Russia is too sparsely populated. Just as Russia will not waste nukes on the Rocky Mountains, we will not waste nukes on areas with 5 people per square mile. Nevertheless, most Russian would die but twice as many Americans would die and a higher percentage. The war mongers that are willing to risk a war with Russia are insane.

[KrakenAttackin]

@kelleynice. How many Orcs are you willing to lose? I know your government doesn't give a fuck about its people, but still losing 100M+ would sting.

[shortster]

I am willing to pay $0.00000001 per country.

[Anonymous]

But NATO is headquartered in Belgium...

[KelleyNice]

It matters not where NATO is officially headquartered, the actual head of NATO is the USA.

[KrakenAttackin]

@kelleynice Maybe if Russia chilled the fuck out? You have proven you have no battlefield savvy and are all talk. A few Javelins have brought the once mighty Russian army to a halt.

Get over yourselves and concentrate on building a country and developing your economy.