Democrats, what's your solution to the Ukraine mess?

[lightbulb27]

I've had enough discussions to know that Democrats believe in the policies being pursued. Ok fine. What are your solutions to end it? I know you won't listen to the right "nutjobs" whom are apparently "russian sympathizers" @supercutebutt, as we are sometimes called. But don't you want to end this in some way, and what is that?

Frontline footage. No-one got killed... but got to be kidding ourselves... people are being wounded and killed. Shows how thin the lines, do they have the manpower needed need... to push Russia back. That is the strategy as far as I know it... beat Russia back.

There are no proposals by any government to end the conflict... only voices to negotiate now are "Trump" and "China". Else, the position is..."wear out, and push russia out". But we'll withhold aircraft and tanks to do that...

A few key points in this video:

* Suggestion again of Ukraine joining NATO: around 00:42sec. Saying this... then russia has no reason to give up... why would they? They will double down...

Other key points:

* Ukranian commander (no video): "We are fighting NATO's war... with our blood".

* 1/3 of the breadbasket of Europe/Africa is offline, for a long time, not to mention fertilizer. Not good...

* 10 Million Ukranians scattered about the globe, much of the infrastructure destroyed. There is no end in sight... limited access to grain ports.

As such, shouldn't you be going to fight and end this, quickly... to save Ukranians? Don't tell me you are American/European... you can become a Ukranian citizen, easy! You can join and save that solider sitting in the dugout (watch video). Otherwise, it drags on for a long time, people die one by one, two by two... unless Russia rolls over and wins. And that can't happen either... then you will be at war... prossibly nuclear. You gotta win now in Ukraine... that's obvious.

We need your solutions... since you are paying for it and promoting it and you don't trust Trump or China, or anyone else.

My solution is this...

I have no solution... let Trump or China try to solve it

I have no solution... but I trust my govt to solve this

I have no solution...

[RolandCuthbert]

I can only say that I just think when it comes to Ukraine, you are basically a Russian asset.

You spread Russian propaganda as well as anyone I have ever seen.

1. You pretend that this is a conflict between America and Russia. This is a war between Russia and Ukraine. We are merely Ukraine's allies.

2. So any solution must come from a negotiation between Ukraine and Russia. Can the U. S. or other nations mediate? Sure! But only with the request and permission from Russia and Ukraine.

3. If you dislike Ukraine for being invaded, that's fine. But stop pretending that you are mad over the lack of solutions coming from Biden when there is only two choices. Give Ukraine arms. . . or to not give them arms. That's it and that's all.

4. But to even pretend that Ukraine is being unreasonable because they want their territory back is not a rational position. Because we know what Russia has done;

• They invaded Moldova in 1992 and annexed territory
• They destroyed Grozny in 1999
• They used Polonium to kill a Russian defector in Britain in 2006.
• Attempted to murder Ukrainian politician Victor Yuschenko in 2004
• Invaded Georgia in 2008 and annexed territory
• Invaded Crimea and Donbas in 2014 and annexed territory
• Shot down a Netherlands passenger flight resulting in the deaths of over 200 people
• Destroyed Aleppo in 2015
• Invades the entire country of Ukraine in 2022 to remove Zelensky from power and install their own government

That's just some of the things I can list. They have done much more. So even if you get a ceasefire and negotiated peace, there is nothing in their behavior that says they will abide by any agreement.

They had already signed agreements guaranteeing sovereignty for Ukraine, Moldova, and Georgia. And they have violated those agreements several times over with no repercussions or consequences.

[lightbulb27]

I want to say yes to everything I can... but a lot I don't agree with.
Here's my bottom line... I want solutions, if you got em.
Maybe I am a Russian asset, maybe I'm just a fish that took their bate. I noted that above. Whats' a reasonable solution.
I think you see my point that Ukraine is "teed up" to be torn to shreds. That hurts. So what is your solution to save these people? Can you honestly say, given your viewpoint... we should withhold aircraft and unlimited tanks? 30-100 tanks isn't going to cut it...

[lightbulb27]

forgive me, you stated a solution indirectly... Russia will not agree to anything. So therefore, they have to be so weakened if not destroyed, they can no longer fight. That... is going to take some doing isn't it?

[RolandCuthbert]

Again with Russia propaganda.

I don't have any solutions for my Ukrainian friends. I have friends scatted to the four winds. In Ukraine, in Poland, in Germany, and Georgia.

Do you want to talk to them and tell the solutions you have for them?

Or do you have enough common sense to shut up and listen to what they believe is the best interest for them, their families, their nation and their culture.

Because we know you have no want or need to show Russia there are consequences for breaking international law constantly.

[lightbulb27]

Things I see in Germany, people aren't all on one side of this.
www.cnn.com/.../index.html
Sure I'd listen or ask questions, noone here listens to the other view, why would they? Depending upon whom one talks to, I will get the same divided view we see everywhere else. The division is set and the policies are in place, I see no chance anything changing. It will continue escalating, it will run it's course until someone decides to negotiate. That could be years...
I will go to Europe this year, I'll look to ask people directly.

[RolandCuthbert]

But you have not been to Germany have you? You haven't even spoken to the German citizens who are members of GaG. You simply do confirmation bias. You have a bias, so you seek out articles on the net showing folks who agree with you. That's not a discussion or debate about real ideas. Because anyone can find any article showing support for any position.

That is not having a debate with a Ukrainian or German person directly impacted by this war. And when you get to Europe, try talking to Ukrainian citizens who are refugees.

See if you get past five minutes preaching your nonsense about how they need to concede territory or listen to what Russia has to say. See if you can find some who are going to forgive Russians what has transpired over the last decade?

[Soteris]

Easy. We are not the world police, we do not have the duty nor the authority to force this war to end. This is entirely in the hands of Russia and Ukraine to sort out. The war will end when they come to an agreement, whatever that agreement might be.

We are not in a position to tell either side to surrender nor are we in a situation where we can send troops so best we can do is send aid and equipment. Which we have done.

So how are things going? Fantastic actually. Russia will lose at this rate and its going to be the last war Russia can fight in my lifetime thanks to the manpower and resource losses they have sustained. Without a Russian threat in the future we can sleep much better and reduce our military expenses by a fuckton making this an amazing deal.

In the meanwhile, Ukraine gets to fight for their life and in the meanwhile reinvent their whole nationality and emerge on the other side a much stronger country while we get to clean out our storage of obsolete equipment and watch the fireworks with popcorn.

[lightbulb27]

Excellent response! That is exactly where the government (USA at minimum) is coming from, you are very in synch with the current approach.
Doesn't mean I agree with it, but it is a solution.
One question... why in the world would we limit the weaponry they can use to defend themselves if the goal is to wear down Russia and send them home? Stack up the tanks and planes and let them use what they need. I know we don't want to "escalate", but cmon... how does 100 tanks get the job done with no air cover, at best drones? That's kinda like bleeding them dry and they only have so many men.

[Soteris]

I got nothing against giving them bigger and shinier weapons, in fact I have personally sent a letter saying just that to my government. But if your goal is to bleed Russia dry then that is the opposite of what you want to do. If we were looking at it from a purely logical side then USA and the rest of the world would benefit more if Russia is stuck fighting in Ukraine for the next 10 years compared to if Ukraine steamrolls them tomorrow with their shiny new tanks.

As for manpower, there is no risk of either side technically running out of bodies for a very long time. Russia is.. well Russia and Ukraine has a healthy population too and a much higher motivation to fight.

[lightbulb27]

Good job, someone that took action. I commend you!
I hadn't heard that about man power, I'm surprised.
I feel for the Ukranians given your answer.

If you were called up though, would you go? Would you volunteer? sounds like you don't think it's necessary and not your fight.

[Soteris]

I have considered going but sadly I dont have any expertise that would be useful. As for the Ukrainians, all we can do is give them our moral support sadly. Its not our fight and we are not even really allowed to interfere beyond the simplest show of support.

But its not like this is all in vain either. Ukraine has had a lot of internal issues in recent history and there are few things that can iron these types of social issues out better than a defensive war. If/when they beat Russia back I am expecting them to reinvent their whole nation and maybe in 100 years they would be able to rival Germany in economy and power. That is the potential of what they could achieve in this war and something I think is worth fighting for.

[Gummy_Cluster]

@exitseven

Trump offered months ago to fly over and negotiate a ceasefire between Ukraine and Russia, but Joey didn't want that.

Biden doesn't want to send auditors over to find out where the $160 billion dollars went.

Now they're finding out that Ukrainian oligarchs and other fat cats are embezzling the money we send. And I've even heard that some have been going on lavish vacations and building swimming pools in their backyard. All on our dime. My
And why are we doing this to help a corrupt country that wasn't part of NATO?

This sounds to me like wag the dog 2.0

[lightbulb27]

I hadn't heard most of that, I have heard we don't know where the $ goes, just like Iraq. Don't worry, it's pocket change... nor is it the correct amount... given past history.
If Afghanistan was 1 trillion, this will be several trillion I would assume...

[Gummy_Cluster]

I like the part about not worrying. Let's leave and not worry.

We need to save our money for giving it to Taiwan when China attacks.

And the war between Iran and Israel isn't far off so we need some money for that.

[lightbulb27]

It's what they want, spend lots $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$,$$$. If results in a-bombs going off, that's good too as thins the herd...

[Agape93]

Not a dem, but I have one that will work to stop the war in less than a day.

Have Biden give me the launch codes for our nukes. Then have him tell putin unless all Russians are out of Ukraine and Crimea by the end of the day, he will nuke Moscow. When putin ignores it, IL push the codes in and launch them at Russia. Russia will retaliate and kick off a nuclear exchange

[lightbulb27]

I like that solution, except I die fast... since I'm smack in the area where he'd drop at least 3.
I have to say no to this, but I appreciate the creativity.

[Agape93]

As the song goes
If we go down, we go down together

[lightbulb27]

really need to get you over to Jesus side... although I know how much it makes you want to puke hearing it. I used to hate people and oppose God. It's a better place over here, with a good exit plan.

[Agape93]

Lol appreciate the sentiment but I'm not interested, and besides, I have a great exit plan too lol

[lightbulb27]

That's fine to have a plan, and I wouldn't ask if it was a good one, but your view is "destroy humans" and the planet, your resounding emotional energy is thus hate, spite? I used to hate humans too. That leads to a perspective upon life and living.

Is love anywhere in your emotional foundation? That's what Jesus addressed... He resolved the underlying emotional foundation, by way of belief.
If you haven't read what he said, do so.
I well understand where you are coming from, it is your life. The goal of "evil" is to waste your life. The goal of God/Jesus is to restore your life, to come from how you were designed, love, not these other negative emotions, formed by the world.
It's that simple. It feels awful though to leave "hell"... hell is deep and all consuming. It's a leap... and each has to choose it on their own, from their broken soul. It's just what it is...

[Agape93]

Oh I hate, but I only hate those who cause sexual harm. For almost everyone else, I feel nothing. I only care about maybe 40 people in this world, and even then, this supercedes all of them. But for me, watching the end of days come, I find exciting to an arguably indecent degree. I feel about it, the way a football fan would feel if his favorite player came to his house and gave him the perfect seat for the superbowl.

My main theocratic belief is love, that's why I share it to those I care for, those who earned it. But the world kicked the sense of love I had for humanity right out of me lol

Don't worry i know, I was raised catholic and raised around baptists. I know about Jesus and the Bible. I just wholly disregard both. If God wanted my devotion, my love, he would have done something. Would have not made my childhood one big blur of loneliness and fear. He would have kept my ex from me. He didn't. He hasn't earned it and has made no attempt to do so.

But if it helps you feel better at all, hell won't take me. My soul belongs to my goddess, and I will be swept away in a tempest of ecstasy.

[lightbulb27]

we'll, you could either be my brother (enjoying popcorn watching the world burn) or my father for a long period in life, of spite towards God. Took long time for my father to come back around, near his death bed. It is very hard to reconcile an "all powerful God" with what we end up dealing with under the misery of worldly humans. I could answer it in my way, but ultimately everyone has to.
Belief is good, but what's the heart say... are you in a place to love the unlovable and broken? If not, that's the work Christ was doing... very difficult, near impossible it seems, but I see it being done... and only place I know can be done, is from Christ. The workers are few, the harvest great... as He said. That's the game of the adversary... separate people from God (love).
I can only say I'm sorry to hear about your sufferings, reality for too many. You didn't deserve any of that, didn't ask for it. Someone elses unresolved misery came out on you. Makes me sad to think some other Christian, maybe me... because I wasn't strong enough, missed opportunity to save someone, like you. That's true... I botched too many efforts.
I know of people that have come out of those childhood miseries to regain their lifes power, that is the purpose, nothing else. Love fills you up spiritually, to use your suffering to benefit others, is powerful... so many before you have discovered that. If you operate from that, then that's good.
For what it's worth... it's not easy though, easy to fall off the trail... been there, there now.
So good for you. I just don't want the devil to steal your power. Your power is for good, if you have opportunity to use the gifts you have, respond in the moment, there you will find your strength.
I used to hang out with a group that cared for trafficked women... I have some view into that mess. Protecting the less fortunate, is a great mission... many ways to do that.

[Agape93]

You have a good heart, you know that

[TheBigWhistle]

Let Trump try to solve it? LMAO. Trump's just saying that to get himself attention. He would have no idea what to say or do. Putin thinks he's a useful idiot so he's likely to manipulate Trump again with flattery and token gifts to get Trump to suggest things that benefit Russia. This is clear to most observers.

Invaders want to take over your homeland. In the cities they have captured and then been recaptured by Ukraine, there is widespread evidence of war crimes, torture, rape and execution of civilian, men women and children by the Russians during their occupation so they're not there to "make things better".

There is widespread bi-partisan support for helping them in Congress, not just Democrats as you misleadingly try to frame it. All of western Europe is on their side. You fight and fight and fight to stop them until you have nothing and no one left to fight with. And we help them do that with arms and support as long as it takes. Crippling Russia and seeing their military reduced to shambles is to the benefit of everyone in the Western World and it will be much easier now than it would be after Putin has swept through Eastern Europe and reassembled the Soviet Union which is what this invasion is really all about.

That's my solution.

[lightbulb27]

You make good points. Yes, that is the current plan.
Given that, I cannot make sense out of denying them other equipment. 30 -100 tanks... that's not much...

[lightbulb27]

p. s. I don't think he's just saying that to get attention. If accepted, he'd go attempt it... it be a long shot.

[TheBigWhistle]

Since I wrote this, he discussed what his negotiation strategy would be... let Russia have the land they already occupy, let that become part of Russia so they can claim victory and call it a day. This of course, would be a non-starter for Ukraine and just speaks to Trump's arrogance and naivete as to his actual ability to solve it in a day or at all for that matter.

[lightbulb27]

he can't negotiate in the media, bold to even say what he thinks. If it was jimmy carter they'd accept. As it is... leader of China is going to give it a go and is planning to meet with both. wouldn't that be the "coup de tete" if china could pull it off. low chance... but would show whom the true world power is.
I don't understand the perspective of some that doesn't think the USA had a hand in creating this mess. It was inveitable as east met west, but to ignore our role seems blind. Were a party to getting a lot of people killed, and so, should be a party to bringing about it's end.

[TheBigWhistle]

If you think Ukraine would accept giving up all that land if it was Carter suggesting it instead of Trump, you're absolutely kidding yourself. What exactly do you think they've been fighting and dying for the past 13 months, to say sure go ahead and carve up our country, as long as it's the right person asking? You're joking right? As far as China is concerned, they are probably too closely aligned with Russia to be perceived as a neutral party by Ukraine. The U. S. didn't have a hand in creating this. Russia invaded Ukraine. Period. End of story. NATO is strictly a defensive organization. Russia's bullshit about being uncomfortable with NATO on their door is made up just like the bullshit about all the NAZI's in Ukraine. Not to be rude but it feels like there are a lot of aspects of this you may not fully understand including what Putin is trying to do and why..

[Alexandrubaschet08]

My solution is to arm Ukraine to its maximum capacity, enter it into NATO as soon as it eliminates Russia from its territory and place missile systems and anti-missile shields 0.000001m from the Russian border.
Russia to pay war reparations and to recognize all the crimes committed in the past from 1939 to the present and to pay reparations for the nations of the Eastern bloc.
International tribunal for judging and condemning the communist and at least Putinist regimes like the one at Nuremberg.
Let Russia be torn into pieces for eternity like Germany in 1945. The demilitarization of Russia and its decommunization.
The imposition of transparent and democratic political systems that respect people's rights in Russia.

This is the only solution for a better world and an efficient and quick end to this war.

[lightbulb27]

that sounds like the current plan actually.
A risky one... a lot of variables there.

[Alexandrubaschet08]

The nazy regim had pay for theyr crimes, but the communist one (Russia) never did, but in 1939 USSR/Russia whas ally whit Germany in Poland invasion.

[Heterosketero]

Won't get into partisan, hell, Im Canadian so we are speaking the same language here. Ukraine is a money laundering scheme by Nato to transfer wealth back to Europe. Points to consider, WEF trying to consoliddate wealth so as to digitize it, Russia should have smokeshowed Ukraine by now, why haven't they? What are these billions being spent on? Certainly not a victory for Ukraine... We are being held hostage by a medical regime change while all the world is engrossed in a protacted proxy war.

You want that war to go away? MURDER EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF THE WEF. TODAY. Show the rest their fate should they persist in fucking with a free world hard won. We never forgot.

[lightbulb27]

that's not clear to me. what is WEF? World economic forum?

[Heterosketero]

Precisely

[Heterosketero]

Having a grand time handling Ukraines warchest of funds and investing in, what exactly? Not a winning war prosecuted by Nato thats for sure. Why?

[supercutebutt]

This will end when Putin and his enablers are destroyed. Remember reading about Hitler when you were in school? Bad people (like you) didn't want to stop him. Thankfully, good people did. :)

[lightbulb27]

that's the spirit! the solution is stop them, and send them F'ers back! As presumed above, they aren't going to without a massive fight, because they can't lose.
Why not... send them some more tanks, and airplanes? Your solution is "fine", but can you imagine sending "the boys in WWII" into fight hitler, with no P51's or bombers? cmon... that's suicide. Don't you agree... why in the world would we withhold the power to smash them (in ukraine), other than we don't have it to give... and it could escalate. Seems really abusive to the soldiers.
Have you considered getting into the fight, like other women? See the story on youtube on ukrainian woman sniper. You'd be a good one...

[supercutebutt]

This is the Ukrainian military's fight. They aren't asking for soldiers. They are asking for weapons and equipment. And as we know, there is a delicate balance between sending that help and escalating into WWIII. You can criticize all you want, it is your right. But many of you are indeed autocratic Russian sympathizers and you are my enemy. You disgust me. I am for democracy and freedom. You are not. You need to be stopped and we WILL stop you. :)

[lightbulb27]

If Jimmy Carter (or similar), said they would work to negotiate an end, would you support it? The only solution is negotiation. I would.
Last Q: If some republican was in charge and did the exact same thing as Biden, you'd support them?

[Leopard23]

The solution is too keep arming the Ukrainians. Russia has shown themselves weak in Ukraine. Long term Russia needs to be stopped.

[Wise4myage]

NATO should be contributing.

[lightbulb27]

now were talking. Actually, they are to some extent, just not much. 20,000 Polish troops is something, plus US advisors and training in the USA. But yea, the other people could do a lot more...

[Wise4myage]

Agreed.

[exitseven]

NATO is contributing. All the NATO deadbeats put together have contributed almost ten billion dollars. Meanwhile the US has spent 160 billion on this boondoggle.

[lightbulb27]

@exitseven That's $ which is cheap and they to some extent, love that for it boosts their GDP, creates jobs abound, etc.. But bodies... that's the problem. See video... the lines are thin if one guy is taking on a tank in Bhakmut.

[DryGermanGuy]

@exitseven
Stop spreading your pitiful FUD. Germany alone contributed 14 billion already. Do the math yourself.

[Pterodon]

They don’t have any solutions to anything