Do unborn children have rights - like the right to life?

[msc545]

If they do have rights, why is it legal to kill them via abortion in some states?

If they do not have rights - why not?

[lightbulb27]

They have rights, the right to life.

But society allows them to be executed by the parents because there is no suitable adult to care for them. Our society sucks... it is heartless, and wicked, Jesus knew this and called it out... did everything to fix it. It's a work in progress. Even a dog will nurse stray kittens, but humans, not so much. Just few weeks ago I turned my shoulder to a woman asking for money for food and I don't like my response, I pray to do better next time to Gods will. Did she not have help, family, trafficked, just another broken addict? I'll never know and it makes me sad to mis an opportunity. I suck sometimes too, I don't like it and want to care better in the moment, each moment. I lost a baby Turkey last year as well, I missed an opportunity to help it and it died on my porch. What I like to see is each person grow, be successful and reach their full potential. That is life.

So if we had everyone act like those dogs that will nurse another species, and care for all the lost on the streets, all the broken hearted, and then all the unborn that don't have good homes... they'd have a chance. But...

arriving in this world without care... we'll, you know how that goes... better off dead fast. It's really sad to think a life has no chance sometimes, but without good parents, forget it.

Back in "Biblical" times, they'd just throw the humans outside and the dogs would eat them. No kidding.

We humans have not evolved that much in 2000 years. Where do we exercise our empathy, compassion, concern? We have work to do... but the training and conditioning is all too often, reverse... we reward emotional filth. The only place I know where people learn is in church where there are some standards conveyed, in some traditional cultures, at home, maybe in other religious settings. But that's the few.

That's the problem... we've strayed far from God, God being love...

[msc545]

Thanks - wonderful answer!!

[RealMarek]

It is very modern of us to think of this as a question of rights as opposed to a question of whether human life has inherent value that must be respected as much as practical, even if the life in question depends on another person to survive. What are the ramifications of ending life for reasons of convenience or economics? During early Roman times a man had total ownership of his children and could execute them at will. Rome was a highly patriarchal, male-centric society. This is not to say life was easy for an early Roman man. They were expected to fight, were under the absolute authority of the state, and many were killed. It was a martial, violent society. As the Greco-Roman culture collapsed, those who stood among the ruins understandably had second thoughts about the violent aspects of Roman culture: gladiatorial games, martial orientation, the right to kill children and leave babies to die of exposure. Perhaps in our society the pendulum has swung the other direction and now women make the same decision about which children live or die, at least until the point of birth. This swing of the pendulum tends to occur during the latter stages of a civilization’s life cycle - not a matter of whether it is good or bad, it’s just something that happens in the cycle of history. We are certainly one of the most gynocentric societies in history, having stripped away most of the formal advantages of patriarchy while retaining those elements favorable to women (alimony, military conscription of men, etc.). Interestingly, there is an element of violence in our society as well, and certainly little hesitation on the part of our elites to kill people for the sake of American global hegemony. Perhaps social phenomena that seem unrelated are actually related.

[Anonymous]

The problem with giving a zygote, embryo, or fetus an absolute right to life is that there will be almost always be situations where another life will have to take precedence. For instance if a zygote or embryo had an absolute right to life it would be wrong to remove an ectopic pregnancy. If a fetus had an absolute right to life than it would be wrong to to remove it from the mother's body if it were threatening her life. Sometimes women's with mutliple embryos have had to abort one or more, for one or more to be saved.

I know these situations are rare, so are the rape and incest situtions which so many keep going on about. However, I bring them up because they are examples that we can''t give every unborn life an absolute right to life without possibly taking away the rights of the woman they are growing inside (or an embryo sharing the womb that's in danger). It's also notable in these situations that if the mother dies, the baby will likely die too, which I think also goes to show that in these instances one life will have to be a slightly higher priority, just because of the nature of the beast (so to speak.)

[msc545]

You can always generate situations in which seemingly the only possible solution is killing the baby. In some of these situations like ectopic pregnancy, the baby will die no matter what you do, and your point that if the mother dies in most situations the baby will too is well taken.

That said, there is no excuse for a "convenience" abortion, and most abortions are just that. Generating the most unlikely sets of conditions and circumstances to try to justify killing babies is not persuasive.

[Opinion Owner]

Killing babies yes, but what you fail to realize is that in many of these situations the woman does not think of it as a "baby" the way you see it. The point I am trying to make is that these siuations if both lives were of equal value and importance we wouldn't justify it even then. Scietificallly we recognize we can't always place equal value to both lives. However, what if they mother just has something like cancer that will not kill her but not getting treatment will maybe just shorten her life by a few decades. It's hard to argue that the life of the unborn should take precedence in these situations either. I get the the reasonsing behind wanting to give every life the same equal value, even in the womb but it's just not practicial. Even if abortion is illegal it will still happen. It doesn't matter whether you, I or anyone else agrees with it, or finds a legitimate excuse, they happen regardless. Our focus should be on changing the reaons for why they happen as well, and reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies. Case in point how many couples are having sex just for the purpose of procreating? This alone is one reason, sex has become an activity rather that used for it's original purpose and many times it's happens outside the context of loving relationships. Now, you can blame women for that if you want too but what are the mens excuse then, for allowing women to get away with it. Hook-up culture has to go, familes need to be valued, safety, and healthcare needs to be more attainable for eveyone and not just people in rich neighborhoods. I could go on but I think you get my drift.

[msc545]

Of course, most women do not think of the baby as a baby, but instead, give it some other lesser label in order to dehumanize it so they can kill it with less guilt. The onset of guilt comes much later after the baby is dead.

[msc545]

Bank robberies and assaults happen too. Do you think we should legalize these things because they happen anyway?

[Opinion Owner]

No, you missed my point, I'm not sayin it's a reason to make it legal but if we don't get to the root causes of them how to do we stop them? I would love to see less violent criminals, less people who decide to shoot up a school, public event or even just shout someone out of rage but if we don't get to the root causes of why people get this way, it will keep happening. I see abortion is similar accept that many in our society don't see it as murder. If we don't stop the reason's such as the feeling of desperation (that you call convienience), the poverty and whatever else is being "used as an excuse" as you say, they will happen.

[Opinion Owner]

*shoot someone out of rage*

[msc545]

The cause does not always determine or point to a solution.

[Opinion Owner]

I imagine in your job you must work with statistics and data. The cause may not always determine a solution but if there is a correlation in data it's pretty hard to ignore it. For instance this articles points out that 75 percent of the women have have abortions in the coutry are at or below the federal poverety line. thehill.com/.../ Now some oeioke will say, that means poor people should not be having sex but I disagree we need to figure out how poor people can have safer sex and have access to better contraception such as long term reversibiles. Did you know that 19 million women in this country live in a contraceptive desert where there are barriers to reasonable access to contraception. Did you also know that when Colorado establish a family planning inititiave where they offered low or no cost birth control to teens and young women that the abortionrate from women age 15 to 19 percent fell by 64 percent. So I disagree with yout that finding causes does not determine or point to a solution. It may not stop all abortions but if it could save more unborn lives aren't those inititives worth it. Just like gun control might not prevent all mass shootings but it could prevent some of them, wouldn't it be worth it?

[Opinion Owner]

Oh I meant to include a link to that Colorado ininitive denverite.com/.../

[Opinion Owner]

Well in any case it's been nice debating this with you, these are the conversations that I think need to take place if out country ever has a shot at decreasing both legal and illegal elective abortions.

[msc545]

Thanks

[Adaeva]

People, including the unborn, may have the right to receive first aid. They do not have the right to long term support. If someone is injured, you are or at least may be obligated to call an ambulance or take them to the hospital. That is an inconvenience but it is a short term inconvenience. You are not obligated to pay their medical expenses nor support then long-term.

That same principal applies to the unborn. If the technology existed so that you could go the the hospital for a simple procedure to remove and save the fetus, that would be like providing first aid. However, you are not obligated to provide long term (9 months) support and to suffer the discomfort, inconvenience, and risk of pregnancy, including stretch marks and other body changes.

[BeMuse]

According to the Fourteenth Amendment, the government cannot take a person's basic rights to life, liberty, or property, without due process of law. A person is a human. Once an egg is fertilized by a sperm the two gametes form the zygote which is a eukaryotic cell carrying human DNA. Therefore, genetically a zygote is a human from the first cell in the development process. The same DNA technology that can be used to convict a murdered in court can also prove a zygote is a human, and therefore a person, thus they can't be deprived of life by the government without due process of law and they have equal protection under the law. States that allow abortion are in violation of constitutional law.

[exitseven]

People will do what is convenient for them. Many feel it is much easier to get an abortion than it is to carry the baby full term and then perhaps give it up for adoption. They don't consider that the fetus is a sentient being

[msc545]

well said - thanks!

[Anpu23]

The issue is the statement "unborn children." A fetus is not a child, I can argue this logically, medically or even Biblically. It has the POTENTIAL for life, nothing more. Therefore, no, it has no rights. No more rights then any other organ growing inside a human. Until a fetus can live independently of the mother, in other words third trimester, you are not talking about a baby, this rebranding is twisted, political and propagandistic.

[msc545]

@Anpu23 It is a human being and it is alive, and I contend that as such it has rights as do the rest of us.

Your use of the term"fetus" is simply just a recital of the terminology abortionists and women use to dehumanize that human being so they don't have to feel so bad about dismembering and killing it.

[Anonymous]

Unborn children have no constitutional rights. SCOTUS has said they are not a “person” with regard to the 14th amendment. Why? They don’t live independently from their mothers and are not even self aware, let alone have any concept of rights. There is no practical reason for them to have any rights. It’s just a way to try to impose religious morality on women.

[AngryCarl2]

They don't have the same rights as a fully formed human. They are totally reliant on their mother so if they're mother get sick or just doesn't wanted to have a baby they're out of luck. Although given the quality life of people who actually were born they might not be missing out on much.

[LimitedBenefits101]

Ofc they do, the mother is living thanks to her mother for giving her a chance to live, so why can't she give her baby a chance to live?

Oh by the way dont waste your time on that lesbian mod

[Genie23]

Once the heart is formed and it starts beating.. Everybody deserves to live but if someone was raped, I can understand why they don't want the child because it will only remind them of trauma and they wouldn't be able to raise the child in loving manner. It will be triggering. The child will be affected because of that. No child deserves that. With that being said, I hope they abort it soon rather than after few months.

[msc545]

So rape is a good reason to murder someone who wasn't responsible for it because their existence might be "triggering"? Are you serious?

[msc545]

@Agape93 A second crime (and a worse one) does not negate the first one.

[msc545]

@Agape93

@agape93Murder is a crime.

I am polite to you in all of my responses. Kindly watch your language when addressing me, or I will remove your posts and report you.

[msc545]

@Agape93 I am removing comments because you keep being insulting and vulgar.

[msc545]

Stop that and I won't remove your posts.

[Agape93]

You removed posts that were not vulgar or insulting. Nice try

[msc545]

You are entitled to your opinions but you are NOT entitled to curse at me because you don't like my opinions.

[Agape93]

Actually I am entitled to curse all I wish. But you are not entitled to trolling on here.

[Agape93]

So yet fucking again,

Don't let anyone stop you from doing what you must for yourself and your wellbeing @Genie23

And in case you remove this yet again,
@PrettyPriya
Another mod to watch your shit.

[msc545]

@Agape93 You curse at me on my question based on your dislike of the content, and you are getting removed. This is not a place for your temper tantrums.

[msc545]

@Agape93 Also, make more threats, and you get removed and reported. Post your own question if you dislike this one so much.

[msc545]

@Agape93 I think saying "fuck you" to me is insulting and vulgar.

[Agape93]

1. I didn't curse at you, I cursed in a conversation with you. Not the same thing.

2. What you are doing is again, trolling.

3. I made no threats. I told you that just incase you removed more shit, I was bringing in another mod to watch.

4. I don't care about the post. I care because you said aborting a fetus was worse than being raped. That's fucked up and wrong, and you know it.

[Agape93]

I don't care what you think of it. I found your comment saying abortion is worse than rape is insulting, vulgar and offensive.

[msc545]

@Agape93 We can agree to disagree. Just don't curse at me - I don't take that from anyone.

[Agape93]

I don't take being told what to do from anyone. I certainly don't take fucked up opinions like that from anyone.

And an FYI don't act like you care about women when you demean their rape because you think aborting a clump of cells is worse. That's not an agree to disagree thing, you know that's fucked up. More so when you complain that others are being insulting when you do the same thing and won't even acknowledge it.

[msc545]

@Agape93 I don't care.

[Agape93]

I'm not a good person. I know this. I've done fucked up things in my life, but even I couldn't fathom saying that to someone, much less someone you know is a rape victim. Seriously, you're in the mental health field and you know better dude.

[Agape93]

Then why did you tell me you cared about women and the fetus, and that's why you didn't want abortion?

[msc545]

@Agape93 You are not a patient, I am not your doctor, and I know nothing about you.

[Agape93]

Yeah, you do, because we've discussed it before. Don't play dumb.

[msc545]

@Agape93 Of course I care about women and children which is why I don't want women to kill children.

[Agape93]

So now you DO care? Be consistent.

[Agape93]

And you can't claim to care about women when you put their rape ass less horrible than removing unwanted cells

[msc545]

@Agape93 When did we discuss anything at all? I have no recollection of this.

[msc545]

Lets take this private in messaging, please. This is not the right place for it.

[Agape93]

You have bad memory then. I remember this quite well from before I initially blocked you.

This is the right place for it. Why, don't want this being seen? Because this s very much on topic.

[msc545]

@Agape93 Ok if you think so, then so be it. It seems much too personal to be on here but have it your way. I am done arguing.

[Agape93]

So you refuse to acknowledge your own issues, you can't even be consistent and you insist on going private for no reason, but you're done talking. Interesting

[msc545]

@Agape93 What do you want to talk about now?

[Agape93]

I want you to acknowledge how fucked up, insulting and offensive your comment was. I want you to be consistent in whether or not you care, and why.

[msc545]

@Agape93 I want you to calm down. I also want you to realize that I am not here to validate your perceptions or to invalidate them.

[Agape93]

I want you to acknowledge your inconsistencies and acknowledge your hurtful comment. That's it. Do so and I go.

[msc545]

@Agape93 Again - I am not validating your perceptions.

[Agape93]

After all you did threaten to report me and delete my comments for being vulgar and insulting, but you wouldn't even acknowledge when you did it. You also said you don't care, then said you care, so which is it?

[msc545]

@Agape93 I in fact DID threaten to report you and delete your vulgar comments and threats. So?

[Genie23]

I just went away for some time because my brother came to spend some time with me, so I barely read your first comment before I stopped checking my phone which is now no longer there. All I can remember is "Murder" "Are you kidding me?"

Now first of all, I've seen some of your comments in the past and I gave a like to few of them but that doesn't mean I'll always expect you to share similar views and opinions with me. It's fine to disagree and it's fine to choose to not to comment or have a debate but the only thing that really annoys me when people get all worked up and say things like "Are you serious?" "That's idiotic (I know you didn't say that but I'm giving an example). Keep it respectful with me as I expressed what I think in a respectful manner rather than judged. I am calm.

[Genie23]

Second, you should read my opinion again. I clearly said that they should do it if the embryo hasn't turned into a foetus yet which started forming after 2 months. How I hope that the women who's dealt with rape (which is mentally, emotionally and physically scarring. Something most women cannot recover from and do not want a reminder of the fact that she was being raped) aborts it before she's 2 months pregnant so she won't feel more bad as the heart hasn't formed yet.

You may not understand that but I do because I'm a woman and I have empathy. I feel people's pain even if I haven't gone through something similar or even if I did and wouldn't do something they choose/chose to but I still understand why some people do/did certain things and I support them.

[Genie23]

Also, just try to put yourself in a woman's shoes who was sexually assaulted. Someone you trusted got violent and forced himself on you and left you devastated and in pain emotional and physical both... and you realise now you're pregnant and the father of the child is none other than the guy who did wrong to you and he doesn't care about the child. Would you be able to go through pregnancy, bring that child that you cannot seem to love and it's father is a piece of crap and the child either gets mistreated because he was not born out of love or the child gets sent away to some place or someone else. You think that's better than aborting something that hasn't even turned into a foetus yet. I would feel really bad for the child and mother too.

I'm just saying not everything is as black and white.

@Agape93 I know where you are coming from. I'm with you.

@Asker Let's just agree to disagree then

[richardcory]

No. Why? Because if they do, it opens a horrible can of worms. What is "unborn". Does it start at conception? If so, what about infertility treatments where eggs are fertilized in the lab? Or birth control products the prevent implantation?

In general I don't want there to be unwanted children.

[msc545]

I see. Unborn means they have been born yet - it is not complicated.

Do you think that killing people is a good way to solve problems of inconvenience or complexity ("horrible can of worms")?

[msc545]

sorry - NOT been born yet.

[richardcory]

OK, so is a fertilized egg in a petri dish "unborn". What about a fertilized egg that hasn't implanted yet?

Killing people is not a good way to solve problems, but to me its not "people".

[msc545]

A fertilized egg is alive, so yes, that is a person. If someone kills it that person is a murderer. Life begins at conception.

People like to use early development or small size or other physical characteristics to decide that unborn children are somehow not "people" so they can kill them and not feel guilty about it.

I'm not buying that logic for one second.

[richardcory]

So you would disallow any fertility treatments that fetilize eggs and only keep some of them? Also ban any birth control that blocks implantaton.

by the way, why fertilization? Any egg and sperm can at any point be made into a human being.

At the other end of things, when a person "dies", most of their cells are still living for quite a while. At what point do their rights go away? What is "death"? It used to be when the heart stopped but these days we often restart hearts.

[msc545]

Fertility treatments that result in viable eggs being discarded are a tough problem and I take your point.

I believe that life begins only at conception, so an unfertilized egg and unused sperm are not a problem.

A fertilized egg IS a problem as I mentioned earlier.

I think a person becomes "not a person" when the last cell dies- which actually happens fairly quickly.

[richardcory]

At death, its not so quick. (certainly hours). But also remember that most of the DNA in your body is not human - its form various symbiotic (and antagonistic) bacteria and viruses.

I can't argue with your definition of human. but it is a choice you have made, and other people have chosen different definitions. Its not something that can be "measured", there is no way to get agreement.

All we can do i use the political process an accept the results

[msc545]

There is in fact non-human DNA in terms of origins, but most of it is human although I am not sure why that matters.

There is recent research that shows that brain activity can persist after death for many hours - you are right about this, although I am unsure why this matters (what did you have in mind to change/)

[msc545]

@richardcory You ask great questions and pose very interesting arguments - thanks!!

[inhua]

yes they do otherwise a criminal who murders a pregnant woman should not be charged with double homicide

[Cubus]

Most people don't care about others. They only care for what is convenient for their butt

[Dargil]

Not delineated by the Constitution, except reserved to the states or the people by Amendment 10.

[Apple1996]

Sure they have the right to life but the mother also has the right to do what she wants with her body so if she wants a abortion then completely her choice

[msc545]

So mom has the right to kill them just because?

[msc545]

@Apple1996 Nobody has the right to commit murder.

[Apple1996]

It's not murder/killing in my opinion. Even if it was it doesn't matter. The mom still has the right to do what she wants with her body/her baby

[msc545]

What gives the mom that right?

[Apple1996]

Cuz it's her body that's gonna have to go through all the work of growing and birthing the baby

[msc545]

So does she have the right to kill the baby after it's born given all the hassles of raising it?

[Apple1996]

Pregnancy and birth is not the same as raising a child. If a woman doesn't want to raise the child she could easily leave it with the dad or adopt it out. During pregnancy and birth there is nobody to take the burden off of her.

[msc545]

She could do those things right after she has it rather than killing it before she does.

[Apple1996]

Pregnancy/birth/postpartum aren't exactly that easy just to push through to have a baby for a woman that doesn't want one.

[msc545]

Neither is the sort of work men do to support women. We do it anyway and we don't murder children in the process.

[Apple1996]

There is nothing men do that can even compare to carrying a child lol

[jimmy2]

All life has rights we just have baby killers justice will be served in the end

[najekim]

IMHO, until the fetus reaches viability, it's part of the woman's body and can be treated like a parasite if she wishes.

[lottiebannotie]

Tell her cry me a river she's a fucking clown 🤡🤡🤡

[Kelly6]

didn't one guy proved that unborn have no rights?

one guy sue his parents that why didn't you ask my permission to bring me to this world?

and then court made it clear that he had no rights then.

the end

[Kelly6]

other POINT"

If child birth kills mom
does that count as murder?

[msc545]

This response is just sad. Things do not work this way, sorry.

[Kelly6]

at least you understood it

[msc545]

I did understand it but as I said - things do not work in this way. I'm sorry.

[msc545]

Murder is an intentional act. Nobody wants to kill Mom. Some people want to kill babies and they do. That is murder.

[slatyb]

Because they aren't conscious beings.

[msc545]

Define "conscious" and "being" please.

[Iron_Man]

Yes they do

[Christoff92]

Yes they do.