Who will you blame for the Shutdown?

[OddBeMe]

Dems

Repubs

Ourselves

[ohsheeT]

Well I would like to blame ourselves because we are the ones that elect them and put them in the office

I mean how dumb how lazy how ignorant can we be to keep doing the same thing over and over thinking there's going to be different results when it's the same old group of people in there for the last past 20 30 years 40 years

I mean if you honestly sit down and listen to all parties they all want the same thing they just say it in different words

And the reasons why they want all the same thing is because we the people don't own the United States anymore we the little people are the ones that keep the government running we're the ones that keep America running

But the moment that these guys get into office they owe their big donors and those big donors they buy Republicans Democrats it doesn't matter who you are they're going to give you money just so you can make their agenda work these decorations are in secret society groups and they are the people that run the country and they all have a different agenda

If you think about it not for the last past 40 years maybe even 50 years not one elected official there's to stand up and to be great.

So think about it one's going to blame the other and they're both going to get the same result if they cripple our country it cripples the people the little people

It actually brings our government into a stronger position

On September 20th they were supposed to announce our new currency they want to become our bank

They control our money they control us they control everything next would be food shortages

But the government doesn't make the rules we do and until we can all get together on this and put a stop to it we're going to be underneath their thumb sooner than you would ever believe and that's just means there is no more America that means that NATO will take over and instead of having police officers like we do now did they want to get rid of the NATO can bring their thugs in and we're underneath their thumb now there is an agenda to all this and we little people are the ones going to get screwed

[nightdrot]

Voted "Ourselves."

The public that roars about high taxes has the following profile:

1 in 6 who work, work for government.

1 in 7 is a Social Security recipient - and that will only increase as the population ages and the workforce, and therefore the tax base, as a segment of the overall population.

1/3 of all families, this year, will receive some form of government transfer payment.

To cap this all off, less than half pay ANY Federal income tax - at all.

In a nutshell, the American public loves big government, it just has a negligible willingness to pay for it. It is that clash of which the parties in Congress are a symptom, not a cause, and which leads as night follows day to these repeated government shutdowns. Each party, in effect, representing 1/2 of America's divided cultural mind.

As H. L. Mencken once said, "Democracy is the theory that the people should get what they want - and get it good and hard." So they will again and then will blame the symptom and not the cause.

[YesterdaysChild]

@nightdrot Where do you get these statistics from?

[nightdrot]

@YesterdaysChild Two sources. The first was a column by George Will. The second was from the Heritage Foundation.

Hope that helps.

[YesterdaysChild]

I just question that 1 in 6 work for the government, unless you mean state governments too and the armed forces. Sounds like a high number when the US has like 250,000,000 people. And half of those don't pay any taxes at all? Does that include corporations and the rich?

[nightdrot]

@YesterdaysChild Yes, that means Federal, state and local government. It does not include the armed forces.

On the tax question, no, that was referring to individuals, not corporations - and yes, most of that is paid by the rich. Contrary to popular belief, the American tax code is remarkably progressive, with all sorts of deductions, credits and the like.

The net effect is that most Americans pay no Federal income tax - and if you got a refund, that stat includes you.

Hope that helps.

[YesterdaysChild]

I think the middle class does all the paying because the IRS sure socks it to me each year.

[nightdrot]

@YesterdaysChild Well, the middle class is the largest class and gets the most benefits. Do recall that, by far, the most expensive component of the welfare state is the middle class entitlement programs, i. e. Medicare and Social Security. The latter is $21 trillion in the whole, he former a mind blowing $46 trillion in unfunded liabilities.

The American public, as I say, loves big government. They just have a negligible willingness to pay for it. This only getting worse as the population ages and the workforce - and thus the tax base - shrinks.

As to your particular situation, I obviously cannot speak. That said, as noted, if you got a refund on your tax returns, you are not paying for what you buy. In effect, you are giving the government a loan which it repays to you when you get your refund.

[nightdrot]

CORRECTION:

This sentence - "The latter is $21 trillion in the whole, he former a mind blowing $46 trillion in unfunded liabilities."

Should read - "The latter is $21 trillion in the hole, the former a mind blowing $46 trillion in unfunded liabilities."

[YesterdaysChild]

I thought Social Security was funded until 2035, so how can it be in the hole. It is also not an entitlement for most folks as they pay into the fund their whole working life in Social Security taxes.

[nightdrot]

@YesterdaysChild The world will last beyond 2035. These are the unfunded liabilities going forward.

Also, you are mis-defining "entitlement." An entitlement is a program to which you are eligible regardless of income level, marital status, and other critical factors. (Contrast it to, for example, food stamps.)

Bottom line is the benefit levels - which are adjusted for inflation - while the working population is declining as the population ages. Thus fewer and fewer people are supporting more and more elderly.

SS was structured on the assumption that we would pay for our parents on the assumption that our children would pay for us. (The "trust fund" is an accounting mechanism. It does not exist as a repository of funds.)

Bottom line, both SS and Medicare are living on borrowed time given the demographic realities. Yet the public howls as if someone was setting out to touch up the Mona Lisa with a paint gun at the suggestion of any reforms or benefit adjustments.

[YesterdaysChild]

Our congressmen don't care because they get a nice fat retirement check for life. That in addition to any Military or private sector retirement. PLUS they get Social Security, which the loss of will not hurt them.. Anyone up for a triple dip ice cream cone?

[nightdrot]

@YesterdaysChild Actually, no, they do care. Which is one of the reasons that you cannot get reforms passed. The public will not tolerate substantive changes to the program and will vote out anyone who attempts it.

For that matter, by the way, if you serve a company that provides pension benefits and you served in the military, you will get those benefits - and SS too. That is not a phenomenon peculiar to Members of Congress.

Bottom line, your argument is symptomatic of the broader problem. A public that is quick to cast blame and will not reconcile its' wants with the practical realities.

[zeitgeist057]

@nightdrot "if you got a refund on your tax returns, you are not paying for what you buy. In effect, you are giving the government a loan which it repays to you when you get your refund." is not always true. If I pay you $1K/month in 2022, and in 2023 you return $4K to me, would you say that I've not paid anything to you, and I was just giving you a loan which has now been repaid?

A tax refund is the amount you have paid the government above and beyond what they decided you owed them. It is not always the full amount you have paid.

[zeitgeist057]

@YesterdaysChild the "SS... funded until 2035" does not mean there are currently funds that will last until 2035. It is a calculation of the year in which SS will run out of funds, based on current and expected future contributions.

[nightdrot]

@zeitgeist057 Sorry, I don't follow you. The tax rate is set at "X," based on your income. If you exceed that amount in what you pay in, the difference is returned at (fiscal) year's end. The refund is the excess above what the government, based on the tax rates as set in law, charged you and is therefore "refunding" to you. It is not ALL that you paid in. Only the difference between what you initially paid in and what you should have paid in based on the set tax rate for your income and demographic profile.

[zeitgeist057]

I'm responding to your statement (s) that if a person gets a refund, that means they have paid no tax. Paying no tax would mean whatever you earned, you kept. If you earn 50/hour and worked 2K hours, you would have 100K at the end of the year. If you have less than that, it means you paid part of your earnings in tax. If a person earned 100K, paid 30K, and got back 5K, your statement "you got a refund, therefore you paid no tax", is not true. The person paid 25K in tax.
I hope that clarifies what I was trying to illustrate.

"most Americans pay no Federal income tax - and if you got a refund, that stat includes you." -nightdrot

[nightdrot]

@zeitgeist057 Oh, I see. Take a look at this article going back to 2020:

www.cnbc.com/.../...20-tax-policy-center-says.html

[zeitgeist057]

Seems legit. I wasn't contesting the part about what percentage of Americans pay or don't pay, though. Just the illogical maths around "if you got a refund, it means you didn't pay anything".

It makes sense that Americans living close to poverty level are not making enough to qualify for taxable income, and that number could exceed half the population.

[nightdrot]

@zeitgeist057 Well, that is sort of the point, though. Over 60% pay no income tax but we hardly have a 60% poverty rate. By the time you factor in deductions, credits and all the rest, what we really have is a middle class welfare benefit. Hence, the national debt.

The "refund" is not a refund. In effect, you are not paying taxes. Hence, my point.

[Anonymous]

we are in a trillion dollar debt and still providing billions to a nazi country.
The ones responsible for that war are biden and obama which are democrats
the ones supporting that war to keeping going are their supporters because they swallow every lie told to them disguised as "factual" news
so the collapse will eventually be 99.9999999% of democrats and their supporters.

they cheer and fuel for the war to keep going as more innocent people die. Who wants that? Surly not the people suffering the war, only the ignorant consumer of our propaganda that enrages the reader to demand more weapons and more bombs to be sent to that country along with billions that NEVER reach the ones in need, only the elite while everyone is being slaughtered there and they read in the news here how they are "winning"

I had never been more disgusted by democrats than I today. To think I used to be part of the flock that supported that sick old biden and obama, the real culprits behind the war and lies of ukraine.
SICKENNING. 🤮

[OddBeMe]

You’re disgusted at Russian propaganda. There are more Nazis in the Americana military than in the Ukrainian.

[Opinion Owner]

No I’m disgusted by the fact that OUR leaders feel they have the right to overthrow other countries democratically elected governments just because they don’t like it and in Ukraine case installed a pro nazi one.

There’s Nazis all over the world. Your comment is pretty much irrelevant.
What’s majorly important about the Ukraine case is that Biden and Obama placed Nazis in power which then were given weapons to bomb the shit out of their own country in the east.. these people were regular working people with regular jobs

They screams for help but nobody cared
Nowhere in our news did they constantly blast in our face how they were being bombed daily hiding in basements

What Putin did then, was arm these defenseless people and so these regale people had to become soldiers from one day to the next defending their lives with weapons they had never used but the nazi Ukraine decided to call them “separatists” claiming that Russia invaded that and these people fighting them were actual “Russian military” .. only because they were finally firing back at them.

You didn’t hear those Nazis crying for help then because it was inexperienced normal average people mostly old men who had family to feed while their children hid in basements holding to dear life.

[Opinion Owner]

Our propaganda wants to desperately sell the narrative that Russia was there.. expecting us to swallow that bull.
Only people like you would believe that nonsense.

Nazi Ukraine screamed for help when Russia ACTUALLY went in in 2022. Had they really gone in in 2014 like our fake propaganda posts in every article they wrote, then we would have heard this Nazis crying since way back then.

They didn’t.

They were happily bombing the shit out of civilians those cowards.

And again the issue wi to Ukraine is that Nazis were places into powers where they began combing full villages full of innocent civilians. You can’t sit there and compare that to “ohhh there’s Nazis in this and this place too.. blah blah blah” nonsense. Just simply ridiculous argument.

[Opinion Owner]

Auto correct is regarded.

[Opinion Owner]

T* T

[YesterdaysChild]

Trillion dollar debt? Try $33 Trillion dollars. If every household in the United States paid $1,000 a month to the National Debt, it would take 21 years to pay it off - at the current number.

[OddBeMe]

@YesterdaysChild sure and we should take care of that by not giving billionaires Trump Tax cuts and outlawing tax buy backs with govt stimulus

[YesterdaysChild]

Trump is not a billionaire. I bet Biden sucks in more money than Trump has. China seems to pay well.

[Opinion Owner]

biden is getting his pockets full while people in ukraine die for HIS actions in ukraine and while people in usa get poorer as we are the ones paying for his war in ukraine and inflation is out the window because of his direct actions. He is the only one benefiting off his disgusting war in ukraine

[provokeesmokee]

I think it's fair for Americans to blame both parties. And industries who pay for lobbyists.

Regardless of party, it is your government's joint responsibility to run their organization in such a way that serves all Americans.

If one party continues filibustering in order to force a shutdown during the pre-election term, they're choosing to harm Americans to play their own political game.

That's not responsible governance.

It's fair to demand responsibility from both Democrats and Republicans when it comes to keeping your government functional.

That all said, not much can be done because America owes so much money and keeps printing more because they can and don't want to accept slowing economic growth as a reality.

[OddBeMe]

True. But not equally. We can say one side is worse.

[provokeesmokee]

Sure, Americans can do that. It's up to them to come to their own conclusions.

But holding your government accountable according to established political process - and then fighting to reform those - is also an American right.

[Amur8711]

@OddBeMe I agree, Dems are the worst. Republicans spend a lot to, they aren't off the hook. However, this administration and the Dems in Congress has proven that they don't have the peoples best interest at heart.

[Leapfrog00]

Eh, from the way things have been going lately, it looks like a Republican party is sorted to blame for that one. Like Abraham Lincoln said, a house divided will not stand. A government lasts for an average of 250 years, America is on year 247. The right and left seem to be at a civil war, playing dirty tricks on each other. It's a given that congress is failing, and then these last presidential candidates, wtf? The current one doesn't know what day it is, the last one only focused on deportation and illegal immigrants more than education, jobs, and equal rights. And then there's people that stick up for him because of the stimulus checks. I'm living in poverty and I didn't even qualify for one. I honestly believe the stimulus checks for a waste of taxpayer money. The economy is still suffering, so obviously they were absolutely useless, except for the people who have no idea the purpose of a stimulus check. All they care about is the money. Biden is not the only one at fault. It takes more than three, four years for a government to decline due to a national debt. The United States has been in this debt since the Obama administration, so I have no idea where the Trump supporters on the news are getting their information from blaming just Biden. More than one elected and previously elected official are at fault. I don't see the United States lasting much longer. Values have seem to plummit, and it seems very few that care. Illegal immigrants and foreign affairs or the least of the problems. Food is becoming scarce, the price of food has skyrocketed, the homeless problem has increased severely, most people are living paycheck to paycheck, and real estate is so far out there, I wouldn't even dare buy a house in this economy, but yeah, some of these people, immigration is more important. What happened to America? I'm still a world peace kind of person, and I believe no one should suffer.

[lightbulb27]

don't plan to blame anyone at the moment and to me, looks better if we shut it down for a while. help cool the economy. both look like pains in the butts and they've been ignoring problems for a long time, on both sides. now that 'their' interest rates are up, something has to give. what will they cut... e. g. whom can they steal from? It's a shell game with money. sad.

the problem goes back decades and the issues complex. I favor republicans right now, but there's a balance to the problem and solutions.

[OddBeMe]

Dumbest thing I ever heard. That’s like saying a business should stop making money because it has some debt.

[lightbulb27]

the govt is large part of economy, but it's also over rated. what does it actually do for us? There is eseential and non essential. Govt is a cost, not a benefit like a business. that said, yea... it cause a mess but how does it make sense to keep funding an expensive govt when the fed is trying to slow the economy. cut the govt spending... should have been done a while back as they usually would do.

[BuckCannon]

At this point, I'll blame it on Vlad. But it goes much deeper than that. Trump refused to let Vlad finish his pipeline, because he knew it would lead to war. On day one Biden shut down our pipeline and told Vlad he could finish his. How did that work out? I'm sure that most Democrats and many Republicans would gladly have another 20 year war like Afghanistan. But we're already around 100 billion into it.

Biden opened the border to millions of illegals, and now we have to pay for those. Freeloaders like AOC thinks it's not fair that she should have to pay back HER student loans. Biden is tossing money all over the world for climate change and even gender studies.

So a handful of Republicans have said enough is enough. I'm with them; shut the fucker down. Maybe next election cycle people can think before they vote. The "at least he's not Trump" thing has come back to haunt you. You asked for it, and now you got it.

[dragoblack]

I blame the entire house and senate along with the loacal governments across the usa. They all because greedy people who don't care about the working class people and only socialize with the rich and influential who fill their bank accounts and give them good stock in the stock market. They have lost touch with reality and hqve left the country to rot for money while manipulating the populous into infighting and treating politics like sports teams. All one can really do is prepare for societal collaps and autonomous zones trying to keep their local society stable.

[OddBeMe]

All true, but yet they keep getting elected. Everyone hates everyone else’s congressman except their own. :)

[Femalefashionadmirer]

Can you be specific? There are state governments and city and towns (municipalities) your argument is a bit flawed

[dragoblack]

Femalefashionadmirer i mean all of them. There is corruption in every level of government because people get drunk on the power to manipulate society and if money is involved it becomes worse.

[OddBeMe]

No it’s not rampant corruption. It’s just us liking our own people and hating everyone NOT us.

[Femalefashionadmirer]

Sometimes it’s just power because smaller governments don’t have money but laws empower them

[normalice]

Republicans campaigned on shutting down the government and are now bragging about it so anyone who doesn't blame them is simply an idiot.

[OddBeMe]

You just called out most people on this page.

[YesterdaysChild]

Biden for sending all that money to Ukraine and the billions spent on his illegal immigrants. We just went through this a bit ago. Why are we having to repeat this again? If we can't control our spending and can't pay our bills we get our house/car repossessed or have the IRS hounding us. Why does the government have carte blanche to blow money right and left with no consequences?

[OddBeMe]

Seeming ALL the most to Ukraine? Mmm…barely 1% actually. So this lack of knowledge may be the issue

[YesterdaysChild]

@OddBeMe They sent over $90 Billion which pays a lot of bills that we apparently didn't have the money to pay. If we had it, we would not be in this same situation as we were just in. I'd like to know where you get your knowledge from?

[OddBeMe]

You think 90 billion goes far here? In the US?

[YesterdaysChild]

Enough to halt a shutdown if they spent it wisely instead on all Biden's illegals. Social Security could have used some of that to shore it up.

[OddBeMe]

90 billion ain't.01% of the Budget that halted the govt.

[OddBeMe]

Any more straw mans?

[YesterdaysChild]

Yes, all that money would have paid for the 4 new aircraft carriers that are in production. It could have fixed a lot of worn-out bridges, or helped a lot of homeless. I just watched a program of the World's Toughest Prisons, and the one in Ukraine is one of the worst shitholes I have ever seen. I dodn't see them using any of that money to hire more prison officers.

[OddBeMe]

It’s like you arguing 1% or 2% milk in your yearly food budget. Pennies..

[YesterdaysChild]

Every bit helps, believe it or not.

[Static_In_The_Attic]

I’m blaming Bob from Accounting because he’s really fucking up & he’s cooking the books & sure there is a lot of other shady shit going on as well.

If you write a check & you don’t have money in the bank to back it the check gets bounced back for insignificant funds. Here people are writing checks like there is an unlimited amount of money & Bob from Accounting is just saying ok no problem.

[Juxtapose]

Dude, they keep trying to push out these omnibus spending bills and have for years. It's an unhealthy way to govern and individual things should be voted on individually.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/OGAtWeNsZ2A

Matt explains why he is doing this right here.

[OddBeMe]

Any explanations from non-Pedo’s? I’m in a new phase where I distrust minor attracted people.

[Juxtapose]

The guy has not been convicted and his charges have been dropped. Big goof on your part.

radaronline.com/.../

[exitseven]

Democrats have spent record amoubmnt of money since covid. Most has been wasted. Now they are wasting another trillion dollars on an " inflation reduction act" that will just cause more inflation this has to stop. The border has to be secure and we need to stop being the sole source of funding for Ukraine. There needs to be more accountability. Lumping all expenditures together makes it hard to track spending and makes it easier for corruption. The spending must be more easily tracked.

[OddBeMe]

What Repubs spent? Do you even know the difference?

[exitseven]

Most of th eCovid money was spent by democrats. Most wa not even used for covid and a lot has not even been spent yet. It was a free for all. The Inflation Reduction Act is a waste of money that is just throwing money at climate change which even if it was real will not change anything unless we can put a dome over the United States. Printing more money will only make more inflation. that is covered in ECON 101

[OddBeMe]

I’ll accept that and raise you. We should be spending more on vaccines and stimulus,

[exitseven]

The more money you print, the less it is worth. A million dollars used to be enough for a comfortable retirement 4 years ago. Now I don't think I would be confident if I had 2 million. Why do you think the cost of everything that people buy in their everyday lives have doubled in the last 3 years? It was the one two punch of crippling domestic energy production and printing trillions of dollars and putting them into circulation.

[OddBeMe]

Quantitative easing has been in play for years and the fed has kept it tip top shape!

[exitseven]

yes, tht is true but pumping a almost two trillion dollars into an already inflationary economy has really created a mess for millions of retirees and people with retirement accounts.

[OddBeMe]

and yet it works.

[OddBeMe]

You fcks have been shouting inflation for decades and while natural inflation is ultimately good, the Fed has been doing a good job with interest rates. Sorry they are u sung heroes. I mean the 2007 Fed, Commerce, Treasury and Bush W created Tarp which was a massive mistake I think. Watch Too Big to Fail. Very good HBO movie. Maybe we had to do tarp, but (shrug).

[exitseven]

What is the difference between "natural inflation ' and rhe kind that Bidenomics created?

[Fireguy17]

Both parties, they both got us into this mess time and time again without ever coming up with a permanent solution.
It's sad, we put them there but they rarely do what is best for us.
Because 1 party likes something the other party can't like it.
Both parties are equally guilty of this.
It's the party first, then the people.
It should be the other way around.

[Agagagagaga]

Who cares. No one gives a damn about a government shutdown (something that literally never seemed to happen unto the 1980s... funny how many wars we had and we even survived the Great Depression... all without a “government shutdown”). It’s almost like it gets used as some kind of prop for political theater, and the result will inevitably be that (wait for it)...

... we’ll just get more of the same thing.

Life—and the government—has a way of just carrying on.

🤷‍♂️

[DARKCLOUD1945X]

I blame the people who vote billions for other people's borders and none for our borders. I blame the people in Washington who won't sit down and talk about our problems. A president who refuses to acknowledge the problems we have problems caused by his policy's.

[BoopBoopBeep]

I have less bullshite at work when we're shut down, so "who will you thank" should be the real question.

[OddBeMe]

How are you shutdown? Does that just mean “laid off”?

[BoopBoopBeep]

I'm designated essential. The shutdowns always mean i still work, it's just not as crowded at work anymore.

[Anonymous]

We elected these yahoos to run the country and we don't seem to be holding them accountable for shutting it down...what...every year now.

[BootsLover94]

The Republicans because they said it themselves. Ask Matt Gaetz as he is on record saying the Republicans are behind the shutdown if it happens

[monorprise]

Why are we suppose to blame someone for running the goverment on revenue for a while? I blame whom ever is demanding they do/spend more.

[strateguy632]

the ones overspending... dnc biden democrats.

[Twalli]

A sure way to avoid a government shutdown is to make it so Congress doesn't get paid during a shutdown.

[msc545]

Republicans, of course. They're the one making threats about this.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Anytime a shutdown happens whatever party of who is president should be blame as he is the leader of the nation.

[YesterdaysChild]

Just be in Congress or the President and you can get away with anything, Just ask Biden.