Have you forgiven the Germans for what the Nazis did?

[ChefPapiChulo]

What's your opinion on Germany?

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1 y

The world still has not recovered from the 2 world wars.

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1 y

Not every German was a Nazi, but every Nazi was a German and enough of Germans followed the Nazis enough to commit the acts that they did.

[Flatmanlewis]

The ignorance here almost hurts to read. First: Collective blame for the acts if others who shared nothing more than a common homeland is idiocy.


Second: There is probably not a nation on the planet without some parts of their past they would prefer to forget.


Any belief that Hitler was a representative of the totality of the German spirit or people simply ignoring the complexity and depth of the truth. Many, many, many Germans suffered under his rule and the first prisoners of his concentration camps were Germans who opposed him. Additionally, nearly 40 assassination attempts/plots were made to kill him, the massive majority by other Germans.

[ChefPapiChulo]

You’re actually downplaying what the Nazis did by saying that Germans were victims. Insane lol.

[ChefPapiChulo]

Also, most of the attempts happened after the war was lost and he would order his men to die rather than retreat.

[Flatmanlewis]

First, there is no downplay of the crimes of National Socialism in any of my replies. You are now reaching for salient points to try and hold your indefensible position.

Second, while Wikipedia is widely known as unreliable and often inaccurate this article, at least, shows an accurate timeline of assassination attempts.

en.m.wikipedia.org/.../List_of_assassination_attempts_on_Adolf_Hitler

Make no mistake, the Nazi’s were absolutely vile and murderous beats and none of them got the Justice they truly deserved but countless German children, elderly, and women suffered horribly. History is far more complex than you are allowing for.

[ChefPapiChulo]

At the hands of other Germans. And the majority of Germans loved Hitler, up until they started losing of course. Also, I didn't make any points, I responded to yours. I asked a question and provided context.

[Drewtate]

... and I answered.
Of course the majority of Germans loved Hitler after all they'd been through during ww1, the surrender in ww1 even though they were still in france, the failure of the weimar government, what was done to Germany by wallstreet bankers and foreign bankers, Hitler rebuilding the German economy, Hitler rebuilding the German military, Hitler rebuilding German national pride, Hitler taking back lost German territory

[ChefPapiChulo]

@Drewtate Proving you wrong and educating you is a full time job. I’m just going to call you an idiot and move on.

[Flatmanlewis]

The thing is you are neither proving anybody wrong, nor educating people. Your understanding of history is overly simplified and full of rhetoric. Even you, yourself, admit you have made no points.

[ChefPapiChulo]

That was some straight up word salad and don't pretend to know what you're talking about.

[Flatmanlewis]

I’m bored of you and the palaver, so here we part ways.

I’ll leave you and your 6% MHO here to swing mental haymakers at people.

[ChefPapiChulo]

you're cringe. get out of here.

[Drewtate]

@Flatmanlewis you speak truth. What country hasn't acted the way Germany did in WW2. No one is asking if Japan has been forgiven, or Belgium or France or Britain

[ChefPapiChulo]

@Drewtate it was in the way that they did it.

[Zenpanda]

That's a very weird question. Neither Germany as a country nor it's people are the nazi's. Why would I blame them? And if I don't blame them, there's nothing to forgive.

[ChefPapiChulo]

The country and it's people were Nazis in the past.

[Zenpanda]

A lot of people were a lot of things in the past. I'm from the Netherlands, we colonized a shit ton of places all around the world. Doesn't make me a colonizer.

[ChefPapiChulo]

Well, there was a lot of Nazi sympathizers in the Netherlands.

[Zenpanda]

And neither I nor the great majority of the Dutch are those either. So yeah

[ChefPapiChulo]

You talk like one. “There’s nothing to forgive.”

[Zenpanda]

What you want me to say "I forgive you and your country for shit you didn't do, but some nut jobs did that happen to be from your country. You had absolutely zero influence or part in what happened, but I forgive you for what you didn't do"
If I ever meet an actual nazi, I wouldn't forgive them for what they did.
But forgiving or blaming someone for something they didn't do is stupid.
There once was a white man from texas whom assaulted someone, you may not be that person, but you're white and from Texas, so I forgive you and Texas.
That's just dumb.

[ChefPapiChulo]

The nation as a whole did it. Not just Hitler. Hitler was a populist who reflected the crowd.

[Zenpanda]

A lot, not all. And fear can make a person do a lot of shit.
But apart from that.
It's 79 years ago.
Most of those people are dead.
So why blame the generations that had nothing to do with it?

[ChefPapiChulo]

Because the nation did it. The whole nation is guilty of those crimes. Denying it makes you a Nazi sympathizer.

[Zenpanda]

That's is a very stupid stance on things.
So every German ever from the second world war forward is guilty of the crimes of the nazi's?

[ChefPapiChulo]

Depends what you mean by guilty. Guilty in the sense of the law, or guilty in how they should feel about what their parents and grandparents did. Some of them are still alive. There’s a high ranking Nazi in their government right now.

[Zenpanda]

Most Germans hate what the nazi's did.

[ChefPapiChulo]

Yet, most Germans aided the Nazis to power and ran the concentration camps.

[Zenpanda]

And yet, almost all of them are dead.
So your point falls flat.

[ChefPapiChulo]

The nation still carries the burden of guilt. You need learn and understand what a nation is.

[Zenpanda]

I know what a nation is. I just disagree with you about the burden of guilt.
If your grandpa killed my grandpa, I'm not blaming you for what he did. How is that your burden to bare. It's not your fault.
The Netherlands got fucked by the nazi's, I don't blame modern day Germany nor its people that weren't nazi's nor condone their behavior for what happened. It's that easy.

[ChefPapiChulo]

A grandpa doesn’t represent a systematic ethnic cleansing of entire peoples. Your analogies suck.

[Zenpanda]

Your logic sucks. The amount of people and their crime doesn't matter if you're talking about later generations who've had nothing to do with it. You're looking to blame generations who've done nothing wrong. Like they should feel bad for what the people before them did. Fuck that.

[ChefPapiChulo]

Your ability to create analogies sucks. A better comparison would be if your entire family sat down at the dinner table and plotted to kill my family, which they carried out, and the government-sanctioned it. In that case, you're damn right I would blame your entire family.

[Zenpanda]

Okay let's run with your analogy.
Now imagine I didn't do anything but the rest of my family did. I then had kids and they had kids. The government changed. Would you want my grandkids to feel guilt and would you blame them.

[ChefPapiChulo]

I would blame your entire family and the government. Maybe the blood will wash off the German's hands in a couple hundred years.

[Zenpanda]

That is pretty fucked up. You would blame people whom didn't do anything.

[ChefPapiChulo]

What's fucked up is systematically putting millions of people in death camps.

[Zenpanda]

That is very true, what's also fucked up is blaming someone else for it.

[ChefPapiChulo]

It's not "someone" it's an entire nation. Earlier you tried to blame only Hitler, when it was an entire nation of bureaucrats who planned it and the people who did it.

[Zenpanda]

Nowhere did I blame only Hitler. Literally nowhere.
Hitler wouldn't be able to do shit without a following aka the nazi's.
But literally anyone under the age of like 98 can't be blamed for this shit.
The entire nation of Germans under 98 can't be blamed for shit the nazi's did.
If you walk into Germany and try to blame anyone under that age or above who haven't been nazi's, you're not right, you're just a dumb idiot and you're likely to get beat up for even relating someone to being a nazi.

[ChefPapiChulo]

Why would I walk into German streets and start calling people Nazis? What a stupid hypothetical situation.

The entire German nation can be blamed and was blamed for both WWI and WWII. That's why the Allies split up Germany. It was an unconditional surrender. If you're trying to say Germany isn't to blame for what Germany did, you're an idiot.

[Zenpanda]

I'm saying you can't blame the Germans of today for what the Germans of back then did.

[ChefPapiChulo]

I'm blaming the German nation. Whether or not the German people want to feel guilty for what their government/family did is up to them.

[Drewtate]

Let's not forget the native Americans were ethnically cleansed

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

Germany is one of the most progressive countries in the European Union. They’ve more than made up for the fact that they’ve allowed a terrible man to come into power. They’re actively working all the time to make sure the tragedy that stains their nation’s history never happens again.

[ChefPapiChulo]

www.npr.org/.../germanys-far-right-party-now-polls-higher-than-the-three-parties-in-government

Not that true.

[Flatmanlewis]

Well, I just read this and two other articles about the AfD and there is nothing there which conflates Nazi ideology with theirs. No advocacy of a hate for Jews, no warmongering, and I saw nothing which advocated for a return to National Socialism.

[ChefPapiChulo]

@Flatmanlewis hate for outsiders.

[Flatmanlewis]

I guess you must’ve found different information than I did. I didn’t see that anywhere.

[CrabCakes11]

Not every German person is a Nazi. I don’t blame modern Germans for the actions of Nazis. I do find being a Nazi unforgivable though.

[Drewtate]

Have you forgiven the Americans for what they did?

Have you forgiven the British for what they did?

Have you forgiven the French for what they did?

Have you forgiven the Dutch for what they did?

Have you forgiven the Italians for what they did?

Have you forgiven the Belgians for what they did?

Have you forgiven the Russians for ehag they did?

Have you forgiven the Japanese for what they did?

Think about it this way if not for those two world wars the majority of the globe would still be living under the control of European empires a long with the America's empire and the Japanese empire. WW1 & WW2 swept away all these empires. The Japanese killed a lot more people in China than the nazis did in Europe. The British killed 4 million Indians through starvation during ww2 along with their long colonial history in africa and Asia. The Belgians had a whole brutal regime in the Congo that was on the scale of the holocaust and so brutal that other colonial powers were shocked by it. The Portuguese and spainish had their own brutal regimes in africa, the Portuguese didn't leave India until the 60s when the Indian army kicked them out. The French were brutal in indochina and Algeria. In the Russian empire the peasants were basically slaves and the conquest east to the Pacific of natives was absolutely brutal, the Soviets were absolutely brutal in their regime killing millions of Ukrainians and let's not forget they were allies of the nazis and after WW2 they held Eastern Europe in an iron grip of oppression. If you've ever heard of how the west was won, the brutality matched the holocaust and the banana wars where America set up its own empire in the Philippines and China.

Imagine a world where ww1 & ww2 didn't happen.

[ChefPapiChulo]

Who started the war?

[Drewtate]

The Japanese in WW2 with the invasion of china 1938. Austria-hungry in ww1. The Soviets facilitated the invasion of Poland and joined in with the nazis. Both the Soviets and nazis had an equal part in the starting of war in Europe in 1939, the Soviets at the same year also invaded Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.

[ChefPapiChulo]

If Japan started WWII, who were it's allies? If it's a World War that means several countries were involved, right? By that logic, WWII was started by Italy when they invaded Ethiopia.

lmao

[Drewtate]

Yeah but the Italian-eithiopian war ended. The Japanese war against China lasted until 1945.
By your logic world war 2 didn't start in the the 1939 invasion of Poland, but instead started in 1940 with the invasion of Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg and France because only then we're there several countries involved.
Japan was allied with Germany and Italy in 1936.

[ChefPapiChulo]

If you want to argue that I’m not stopping. I think it’s a shitty one tho.

[ChefPapiChulo]

Stopping you*

[ChefPapiChulo]

You could probably argue that world war 1 never ended and ww2 was just a continuation of it. None of that is that important because we’re talking about German atrocities and whether or not they’ve been forgiven.

[Drewtate]

All those involved in ww2 are basically all dead or in their hundredth year so who's left to forgive them. It's like how the us killed 6 million native Americans after the civil war, have the native Americans forgiven them? We know the Polish have not forgiven the Germans or the Russians for starting the war in Europe and invading Poland or for the atrocities committed by both on the Polish.

[ChefPapiChulo]

Do you think most Native Americans have forgiven the government?

[Drewtate]

Exactly and they got the same treatment from the Federal government as the Jews in Germany.

[DarkLegacy]

There is nothing to forgive and besides it was a long time ago and they learnt their lesson. What about the USA recent illegal wars and they never learn.

[ChefPapiChulo]

Nothing to forgive?

[OddBeMe]

Sure. Doesn't mean we forget.

[Anonymous]

Yes, obviously, not all Germans were like that.

[northerngal]

Yes.