Is this what Europeans think of Liberalism?

[Juxtapose]

It's Wikipedia and I only used them because they summarize this kind of thing better than what else I can find.

I am very much so a classical liberal. Am I right or left to you?

[nightdrot]

Yes, this is essentially correct. Though one might quibble about a few of the details. The term has come to mean different things in Europe vs the USA, as indeed the same is true of conservatism.

Because what Americans call conservative is, historically speaking, not conservatism but is, rather, classical liberalism. Classical or Tory conservatism, traces its intellectual pedigree through Aristotle, St. Thomas Aquinas - and probably most importantly - the 18th century British statesman and political philosopher, Edmund Burke, and also the British Prime Ministers Benjamin Disraeli and Lord Salisbury.

In an American context, it shows up in the thinking of Alexander Hamilton and then - almost by historical accident, the American Whig Party, and the former Whig turned Republican, Abraham Lincoln. (It is a great historical "what if" as to what the GOP would have looked like had Lincoln lived and the radical Republicans not gained the ascendancy.)

Classical conservatives believe, unlike American conservatives and liberals, that the purpose of government is to answer Aristotle's first questions of politics, "How ought we to live? What kind of a people do we wish to be?"

To which classical conservatives respond that the purpose of government is to nurture civic virtue. To reinforce those habits and customs, legitimized by historical usage over time, that make a harmonious and stable social order possible.

Classical conservatives believe in the free market as a tool, rather than an end in itself. They recognize that it is a powerful wealth creator, efficient to some degree, and a guard against an overweening state. However, they believe, as Burke said, "The effect of liberty to individuals is that they may do what they please. We ought see what it will please them to do before we risk congratulations."

Consequently, classical conservatives support an ameliorative welfare state. (The welfare state was invented by two conservatives - Disraeli and Bismarck.) The purpose such a welfare state being to reconcile the public to the dynamics of a free market economy by alleviating the negative impact of old age, illness and temporary unemployment.

In this they differ from American liberals who see the welfare state as a lever to engineer social transformation. That is, to restructure society according to some abstract a priori vision. Classical conservatives argue that such a vision is ultimately going to be oversimple and will lead to adverse and unintended consequences.

Tories believe that political philosophy should take as it starting point not human reason, but human nature. That political rights are developed through historical usage, and are not abstract pre-existing. Which is to say that they don't deny that such abstract rights exist. Merely that they are of no practical benefit or use in civil society and law. As Burke put it, "Their abstract perfection is their practical defect."

In all this, then, classical conservatives tend to see less difference between American conservatives and liberals than they see between themselves. Albeit that classical conservatives are more likely to align with their American counterparts insofar as American liberals tend to be more deeply hostile to custom and tradition.

What Americans call liberal is actually radical liberalism. "Radical" not meaning as it is in contemporary usage - i. e., extremist. Rather as it meant in classical Greek philosophy - i. e. "to the root of."

The "radical liberals" actually agree with the classical liberals (American conservatives) that securing the maximization of man's natural rights and liberty is the purpose of government. They differ in that the radical liberals argue that disparities of wealth and power in society make that maximization of rights problematic. The radical liberals therefore argue for a transformational welfare state to be administered by a popularly elected by presumably disinterested government.

This transformative welfare state will so engineer society and right the inequalities of society. Thus thereby maximizing equality between all elements in society and maximize freedom.

Thus, do you get American conservatives who argue for free markets - except in abortion where the law is expected to step in. Thus do you get American liberals who argue for more government - except in abortion where they want government to have no part.

[OddBeMe]

I would actually agree. This is becuase WW2 required most euro countries to have socialized medicine and other govt programs.

So as I’ve been saying…contemporary liberalism, like European liberalism, is quite different than 1700 era definions.

[Juxtapose]

Private health insurance can definitely work if prices are kept under control. There's no reason for pills that cost a few cents to make to cost $20 per pill or some shit.

[Astarlessnightsky]

Yes, thats why you usually have a political spectrum with more than just 1 axis between left and right.

[Telekinetic-Potato]

I have a feeling this is bullshit. These are people who think it's not strange at all to have speed cameras on highways.

I don't trust their idea of what center politics is.

[Juxtapose]

Of course it's going to seems strange to you, you are for limited government which is "center right" to them.

The norm in most of the world is authoritarianism.

[Telekinetic-Potato]

I don't know where that wouldn't be center right.

I'm saying they're pretty far left and it sounds pretty manipulative to call their politics even remotely center right.

I could be wrong though. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Just seems like they're trying to brainwash their people to me.

[Juxtapose]

Europeans will essentially think you are a right winger if you claim to be a liberal. In Europe if you are a leftist you are generally not a liberal.

It is really only in America where "liberal" has left leaning connotations.

When I grew up, I always considered liberals to be the good guy. They are the ones that are for gay marriage and other such things while also having sensible social programs as safety nets. I never thought the left would get so insane that they would start saying things like men can get pregnant and we should give illegals all these safety nets. It's insanity and that's why even as a liberal, I will support trump. He's mostly a liberal himself, he's a New York Democrat of the old days.

[Telekinetic-Potato]

Lol if only more people saw that

[MicahRaine]

@nightdrot didn't leave anything for me to say 😂

[LimitedBenefits101]

Europeans are DUMB AF, dont take them serious.

[DrPepper12]

No. Im liberal on the USA context.