Another school shooting — this time with at least three dead and six injured.
At what point is it not simple common sense to outlaw firearms with strong enough consequences?
Updates
+1 y
I thought I'd see a response from this.
We all know the stricter gun laws are coming; it's just when and how strict. What is said here has no effect to that fact. What is apparent is how worried some gun lovers are knowing many of their guns may be taken away.
And please, if you want to try and make an educated response, don't show your lack of intelligence by using vulgarities.
Can you believe no one with a conceal carry permit whipped out their gun? At what point is it not simple common sense to outlaw firearms?
We accept, with any right, the potentiality that it may conduce to evil as much as it may conduce to good. The method by which a right is exercised is less consequential then the social context and intellectual suppositions in which it is exercised.
The real issue with the Second Amendment is that rights are viewed by Americans in absolutist terms. As Burke pointed out, such "natural rights" do exist, but "their abstract perfection is their practical defect." Such rights are applied with too little regard to the cultural context in which they exist.
There is much to suggest that the culture is incapable of prudently and sensibly managing the rights it abstractly attributes to itself. Alexander Hamilton made the point that if you have a Bill of Rights you extend to the government the authority to regulate those rights.
Indeed, the regulation of those rights is actually routine. Free speech is limited by slander, perjury, defamation and copyright laws, among others. Freedom of religion is allowed consistent with public order - if a religion calls for human sacrifice, it is prohibited. There are other examples and the list is long.
However, in the matter of the right to bear arms, in part, guns are woven into the culture in various ways. An emphasis on self-defense - particularly in urban areas where crime tends to be high - rural areas where hunting is an important sport, gun collectors and gun clubs, and, as you noted, an ethic rooted in America's libertarian traditions of resistance to tyranny. (Though the notion that the government is a threat to liberty at this interregnum in the nation's life is patently absurd. So supine is the government that it cannot even balance its budget lest it ask the public to pay for what they buy.)
The segment of the population that tends toward absolutism on the Second Amendment is actually quite small, but is extremely intense. Whereas those who take a more nuanced view of gun rights tend to be less intense and more ambivalent. It is not generally their top priority and so the country tends, on the whole, to give both culturally and legally a wide scope to gun rights.
However, it is not at all clear that the culture, as it devolves into a populist tone and an abstract libertarianism with an emphasis on individualism at the expense of community standards, that the society can handle responsibly the rights it has accrued to itself. Including gun rights.
Burke said "men have no right to that which is not reasonable," and rights must be defined through the prism of the context in which they are exercised. What the nation has in the Second Amendment is a right that presupposes an ethic of community standards that are at this moment in the nation's life, at best, fraying. In short, that presupposition needs to be re-examined and, pace Hamilton, the right needs to be regulated in the light of such a re-examination.
In short, what matters is not the method, but the ethical and social context in which rights are defined and exercised. Americans are, in this time in history, inclined to view freedom as an end in itself and not a means to an end and thus rights are defined in absolutist terms. Here is where the problem begins.
Thus I am an advocate of moderate gun control. Things like gun confiscations, buy backs and the like going too far, but recognizing that no right is absolute but is always weighed against other rights and practical considerations.
However, what has modified my views somewhat was the recent violence in places like Seattle, where the state essentially abdicated its most basic and fundamental responsibility, i. e. the protection of life and property. Also, the recent "de-fund the Police" movement and the failure of prosecutors to go after offenders and such. This all in the name of an absurd quasi-Utopianism.
Thomas Hobbes famously wrote in "Leviathan" that life in the state of nature is "nasty, brutish and short." Therefore the state exists to restrain human nature and maintain order, stability and security.
Not surprisingly, when the state walks away - deliberately and consciously - from its most basic obligation, then people have no choice but to fall back upon themselves and thus guns take on a more urgent and elemental need. The public has been left then to the tender mercies of man unrestrained by morals or law and being unable to turn to the state for basic security, has little recourse but to turn to elements of self-defense, this including firearms.
Thus at the most basic level, the need for a prudent level of gun control has not changed. However, that conclusion being contingent on the reliability of the state to enforce the laws, protect the social order and give to security to the individual.
The state has - in places like Seattle, Minneapolis, NYC, and San Francisco - proven itself inconsistent and unreliable in the execution of its most fundamental duty. No citizen of any nation should be obliged to depend upon such a feckless guardian.
And that's the problem. The ultra right wants to argue about running around with their beloved guns and will claim to their dying breath that doing so somehow stops more Violence.
The 'good guys' with their guns don't magically jump out to stop these shootings. It's way past time to get with the rest of the world on this!
You can't expect them to if you ban firearms from the school- you're suffering from cognitive dissonance. The school should have had resource officers, though- did it?
@MrShaun did you forget those two armed churchgoers who prevented a massacre inside that church? Oh I guess you conveniently did because your precious liberal media doesn't like to promote things like that because it contradicts your anti-2A agenda.
Dude… law abiding gun owners don’t carry in locations that they are forbidden to carry in. like schools. Putting up a sign that says “gun free zone” doesn’t physically stop anyone from bringing in a gun, I just stops law abiding people from doing it. Making that location the prime target for anyone for assholes to shoot the place up as they are way less likely to get shot back. But in locations where people are free to actually fight back… well you get something more like this
There was just something in the news today about a kid took a ghost gun to school to sell and the buyer tried to give him phony money so the guy shot him. I don't think they had metal detectors or any school resource officer either. The kids are basically sitting ducks at a turkey shoot.
They have gun laws that they don't enforce now, such as felons being in possession of a firearm. They are mostly always plea bargained down to a lesser charge instead of throwing the book at them. And you know damn well that even if outlawed crooks will always be able to get on as they do now. Assault type guns are banned in California yet gang members always seem to get ahold of them. Also, where did you hear that anyone at the school had a weapons permit? And even if they had one the schools might ban having them on school grounds as it is supposed to be a gun free zone.
Good post except the part where you confused me here: "Assault type guns are banned in California yet gang members always seem to get ahold of them." Do you just mean a rifle? A rifle painted black? Or do you mean full automatic firearms?
An AR15 is not an assault rifle. AR15 is the civilian semi auto version of the military full auto "assault" rifle. An AR15 is no different in function than any other consumer rifle.
@bamesjond0069 Not according to California law. It doesn't have to be full auto to classify it as an assault weapon. Maybe if they were limited to a 5 round magazine.
Ah well california can make up terms all it wants an AR 15 is no different than any other rifle. Many many many rifles including some beginner/childs first rifles can hold more than 5 rounds. Even an AR15 can be equipped with a small mag and now its not an "assault" rifle? The magazine size is not a function of the gun because all guns that take magazines can have simultaneously a tiny mag or an extended mag. The gun doesn't change in any way.
@bamesjond0069 exactly, even glock hand guns can have a 30 round magazine, just because it has capacity does not make it an assault weapon. Soon liberals will call a glock 19 an assault pistol 🤣
@CreamySeed i have a tshirt that labels parts of a ar15 according to liberals and it calls the stock a "supercharger" and the magazine "holds 10,000 rounds" and all dumb shit like that. Lmfao. Honestly talking to them is just like that, they have no idea about anything that has to do with guns at all. Its like if i walked into a nuclear plant and told them they were doing it all wrong and used made up science jargon I don't know what it even means. Smh
@bamesjond0069 You just can't reason with some of the "logic" in CA. If it's something they don't like, they just hang a bad-sounding name on it. There appear to be some "environmental Barbies" that carry a Prop 65 Cancer warning on them, -- - - - - - --
You gloss right over the fact that society is just producing more and more psychos you just want to kill a ton of random strangers. You guys accept that with no problem. Think about that... in the last 60 years society has started seeing over and over people who just decide to murder strangers. That is new to the world.
You accept that and don't see that as the issue. You just obsess over the tool of choice.
The dude in Wisconsin just decided to do the same thing... he just drove his SUV through a crowd of strangers. He used a different tool.
You obsess over the specific tool. Guns have been around for 200 years. Psychos like this have only been around for 50 or 60.
The gang and city crime throughout the country will probably have 1,000s of death throughout the year. You know... criminals who get black market, illegal guns will kill 1,000s... but this kid killed 4... so you are on a quest to get all the suburbs guns taken... yet you don't seem to give a sheeeet about all the illegals guns the robbers, drug dealers, car jackers, rapists, home invaders will terrorize communities with and kill thousands.
You don't care that anyone can point their steering wheel at a crowd of strangers and hit the accelerator. You don't care how many illegal guns all the criminals have... you are just obsessed someone in the burbs will get a gun. You don't give a sheeet about all the drive by shootings, gang shootings, endless daily shootings in the cities... you are not on a quest to stop the black market guns. Just the legal guns in the suburbs.
You don't want to stop society from producing psychos. You don't care about criminal guns. You don't care about crime shootings and murders. You don't care about car slaughters. You are just obsessed that somebody in the burbs may get a legal gun.
I love how there is this sweeping problem... this blight but you are only concerned about this one tiny aspect of it. The 2-5 big shootings by some legal gun in the burbs per year... you don't care about the thousands of shootings that pile up all year with the illegal, crime guns. Just the legal suburb owner. The cartels, gangs, robbers, murderers, drug dealers, rapists and home invaders and just keep killing by the thousands and have thousands of black market illegal guns. You just want to stop these extremely rare suburb shootings.
While, I do believe that banning guns can be a solution to the problem, but it will not actually solve the problem.
If you go and take a look at many of these shootings, you will start to see a common pattern of them, there was warning signs. The Michigan one being the same, reports have a came out that 2 Teachers of this school had reported concerning behavior of Ethan (The Shooter) there was also Cell Phone Videos Ethan made of him referring to killing students at the school. The Parkland Florida shooting, many students reported to the police and FBI that they believed that Nikolas Cruz could cause serious harm to people. In the Columbine Shooting, The 2 shooters, made threats and videos saying they were going to shoot up the school.
In all of the cases I just mentioned, the all have the same problem, no one took these report seriously. Also, there is way more shootings like these, in that police or authorities of any kind, failed to take action from the reports they received.
Also, Most of these stricter gun laws are more a form of Security Theatre rather than actually a form of preventing shootings from happening. (Security Theatre being a way of making civilians feel safe, while actually doing nothing at all, like the TSA for instance) If we look at most of the stricter gun laws that have been mentioned or even used, most of them are only targeting certain guns, like banning the AR-15 and fails to look at statistics, like in 2015, only 3% of all firearm homicides were committed with riffles, which includes the AR-15 but also includes other rifles that are still attainable. Most of these stricter gun laws also fail to mention the fact that 64% of all firearm homicides are committed by handguns also known as pistols.
The only true way to start making effective changes is for the authorities at all levels to take reports and threats like these more seriously, also teaching authorities, schools staff and normal people, warning signs that someone may be a risk to themselves and or others. While also, if we were to create strict gun laws, it would be better just to abolish the 2nd amendment as whole, and not just ban certain types.
Side Bar, before I get yelled at by the other half of people, I do support the 2nd amendment and everything that it means. So don't yell at me about your rights to carry, as I do support that right, but also support someone's right to not be afraid to send their kids to school.
I own a gun and use it to hunt one week out of the entire year. I just got done hunting in fact and spending a week in the deer stand with a gun did NOT make me want to shot others or myself. It never crossed my mind. Other than that it’s home safely. If robbers or kidnappers break in and they got a gun and you don’t, you’re pretty fucked. The police can drive to your house, but is that enough time to defend yourself or your family until help arrives?
With what’s happening in America and other places in the world that people constantly fail to understand is that it’s NOT a gun problem. It’s a people problem. For an example they outlawed guns in Australia & Britain. Well what’s happening now that they don’t have guns? They’re just stabbing people now! Well what now? Britain just outlawed knifes! Some dude in Britain just got arrested for carrying a tool that has a screwdriver, knife, etc. that he uses for work. Well it’s on his criminal record now for just having a tool for his job. I’m not sure about Australia, but I’m sure knifes are outlawed too. Which is probably why people are stabbing everyone with broken bottles and hitting people with bottles. Clearly these people have issues and need help.
Take away guns and it won’t stop the violence. If your kid has issues or is getting bullied then get them the help they need or comfort them and help your kid! There’s plenty of help out there that people refuse to get until it’s late.
Another thing is that the high school I use to go to had a shooting range for students to use back in the olden days. Students even stored their guns in their lockers until after school. Not one problem with school shootings. Of course that’s not allowed now but that was an interesting fact I learned about my school growing up. How society is today, social media, internet, and how parents are raising their kids or hardly at all I should say. It doesn’t really surprise me how this shit came to be.
If you have a kid, raise them, love them, be there for them, and always check up on them. Same goes for your friends and family.
Yet again you show your ignorance. How many times does it have to be said that guns aren’t the cause of all those shootings?
American left wingers act as if the US is only country that allows citizens to own guns. When in reality almost every non authoritarian and non totalitarian country in the world allows citizens to own certain types of guns. Yet shootings are much less common in those countries or simply don’t happen in those countries. And some of those countries happen to be run by left leaning governments.
This shows that it’s a whole different problem that left wingers never address and that’s our society’s attitude towards mental health and bullying.
Schools punishing a kid for standing up to his or her bully
Society sympathizing with the bully instead of the victim
The stigma attached to mental health which discourages people with mental illnesses to seek help
The ignorance when it comes mental illness.
People being wrongly institutionalized based on misdiagnosis
So why should law abiding responsible gun owners have to suffer the consequences for the actions of an evil or deranged person?
You know what would happen? You liberals just don't get it. Guns are outlawed in schools now. Guess what? there was a shooting. Why are you such a dumb shit? The more degrees you have , the dumber you get.
If you outlaw guns , then only criminals will have them and shootings will only go up. Robberies will go up. Rapes will go up. How can you be such an idiot?
Guess what smash and grabs are illegal , are there smash and grabs?
I love liberals thinking laws stop crime. A decree by Obama is all you needed when he was president and all countries would kiss his ass and there would be peace and prosperity with all countries.
A protection order is going to stop a bullet.
Then liberals said lets get rid of police and we will live in peace and harmony. You say rob me , rape my wife and daughter. That is what you told criminals.
You put people in prison for life. That stops crime. That would stop shootings. You pussy liberals let these SOB's back out on the street in 6 weeks. You just told them they did something good by robbing a bank.
If you put a shooter in prison for life , can he shoot anyone else? If you put bank robbers in prison for life , can he rob another bank? Easy to figure and I don't have a PhD even.
Outlawing guns does not solve the problem. You are only hurting law abiding citizens and responsible fire arms owners by doing this.
Criminals that don't give a damn about the law and those that seek to harm others will find means of procuring weapons. And when they do, they will still do killing regardless if is on the street, a public parking lot, school, etc.
Concealed carry permits would only be able to be had by teachers in this case as you have to be a legal adult and fall within guidelines of your state's rules for concealed carry permits. Schools are off limits for concealed carry as well, pending certain states and laws as well depending where the license is issued. To go with that, you need to be 21 to buy a handgun.
So now your options are either have officers at schools and metal detectors at entrances that are enforced to limit the danger or you can ask lawmakers to make concealed carry legal on school grounds for individuals who are licensed and can possibly stop danger, but this also brings in individual accountability and responsibility in the event a shooting takes place in self defense and protecting others and collateral damages.
there are so many laws on the book about who can own guns, where you are allowed to carry, and using one as well as killing people. So why wasn't that person arrested for possessing a firearm on school grounds, why wasn't he arrested for carrying without a permit, why wasn't he arrested for having a concealed carry without a permit. That person violated so many laws to begin with to begin with, one more law wouldn't have made a difference to them. Guns are illegal on school grounds, it is illegal to shoot someone, it is illegal to kill someone, no matter what you use, firearm, car shovel... That said the reason that someone did not "whip" out their carry, is because they were following the law and did not have their carry on school grounds because they were following the law. Look at what happened in Waukesha, 6 people were killed at a Christmas parade by a driver in a SUV, and he injured many more. Now he was fleeing from a scene, yet there were laws on the books that it is illegal to kill or injure someone with a motor vehicle as well as hit and run which he also did. So would more laws on the books have prevented him from doing that? No.
Here's what I can tell you right now I don't know if you're from United States or not but you know we have a system of checks and balances here and up we have a representative government it's a republic it's not a democracy and thank God it is because no one can just vote our rights away. But the people player a very important role in the United States and we are like the 4th branch of government and a checking balance is if you try to take our rights away will just overthrow you. There's nothing in the Constitution about owning a firearm for hunting or sport it it's to defend ourselves and our guaranteed rights in the Bill of Rights. You can make guns illegal all you want but what you'll never do is you'll never get rid of all the guns off the street and then you'll just make the police the biggest gang are the only armed gang. Municipal Police are b******* they're hired by a municipality is basically hired thugs to collect Revenue very similar to a mafia. The sheriff on the other hand is an elected official and he points his deputies and he is the law and if you don't like him you vote him out but you can always rely on somebody else to come protect you if you want something done right you got to do it yourself. Mass shootings whatever those people are just unstable we have more guns then people in the United States everyone should be dead. People who want guns made illegal the reality of the ones that shouldn't have them because they would be the ones that would kill people because that's why they think that way. Those are the people who have in their head that would kill somebody if they had a gun so they think everybody's like that and it's not true
Outlawing firearms at this point would do nothing to solve the problem and would only make matters worse.
The gun industry employs tens of thousands of people. Most of which would lose their job if guns were outlawed.
In total the gun industry accounts for about 60 billion dollars of the US economy. Outlawing guns woud tank that.
There are 20% more guns in the US than there are people. It would be impossible to round them all up. Any attempt would just drive gun sales underground making them vastly more unpredictable.
The gun is not the problem. A gun is a tool. Tools can be wielded in different ways for different purposes. Guns are mostly outlawed in England, it didn't get rid of the violence, just shootings became stabbings.
The problem is our horrendous mental Healthcare system, poor educational support system and poor home environment.
Another significant contributor is the toxic environment created by social media, the internet, and mobile phones.
I don't own a gun myself because, among other reasons, I'm not the type of person who is afraid of her own shadow and thinks all the world's criminals are out to get me. If I find myself in a situation where someone with a gun and ill intentions is standing before me, I'll just talk them to death. They'll be running away from me in no time.
I was assaulted then 2 years later he found me somehow and attempted to break into my car after the protective order expired. The next day I was signed up to get my gun permit. And I made sure the police knew their wouldn’t be a 3rd time. So your statement although cute isn’t accurate.
@lovedejj_xo Well, it depends. On lots of things, like where you happen to live, and the people from your past. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've never felt afraid to walk alone at night, and I've never had someone stalk me, so buying a gun for self-protection just wouldn't make much sense.
It doesn’t though people from my past? You lost me there. Yes chalk it on being lucky because that’s the only thing I can really say it is. I’ve never been afraid either but im not about to be naive. We have two different view points. I can’t fight off a grown ass man But I have something for him if he ever comes near me again.
@lovedejj_xo EXACTLY, women should be the last group of people to hate on guns because guns are the great equalizer and it stands between you getting raped/kidnapped/murdered/assaulted all things men DO NOT have to worry about...
Yes that is another sad tragedy, but for 99.7% of gun owners they are not causing the problem and will never loose their gun privilege's. Someone bent on causing harm will find a way to do it with or without a gun.
Always loved that logic. A criminal will always find a way to commit a crime... So why bother doing anything at all?
Clearly the status quo isn't improving things.
Never mind that every other country in the world has some form of gun control and restrictions in place and also have a much lower amount of gun related violence compared to the US... I suppose because it doesn't stop 100% of gun related crimes, there's no point, huh?
Could reduce gun crimes by 80-90%, but since there's still that 10-20%, there's no point?
Oh but then I suppose if they can't get a gun they would just get a knife. Well, even that would still reduce the chances of possible deaths and amount of victims compared to what firearms can do.
Oh well, no sense in getting into an argument since nothing will ever change in the US. I've already lost any sympathy or care for what happens in the US because you all bring it upon yourself and seem to enjoy it enough not to do anything about it.
Let’s remember that maybe there isn’t one simple solution. Maybe we need to fix PEOPLE. But PEOPLE don’t want to be fixed. We just want everyone ELSE to be fixed. Maybe that’s why things don’t change. A firearm is inherently harmless. It needs a human to do any harm.
Yeah, it was insane and the school could’ve prevent those deaths too. They were told by the student body that the future shooter was posting alarming content on social media but they did nothing, the school principal even sat down and talk to the shooter an hour before the shooting. The school and parents that allowed their kid around that gun need to be held accountable
As I'm a retired LEO and Security Specialist, are you SO FOOLISH as to believe the Shooter did not KNOW there ALREADY ARE EXISTING LAWS prohibiting carry in those circumstances?
Are you SO naïve as to believe such a person would OBEY such FURTHER legislation and would not seek to circumvent them?
Such lone shooters live in a personal fantasy reality, either to go out in blaze of glory (death by cop) that their name be remembered in infamy (Better to be notorious and vilified than to be IGNORED!) OR... that somehow they would be both nimble and cunning enough to escape the consequences of their homicides! ~
it worked in the UK as it was very specific ones and even then, most people never bothered owning one.
Before Dunblane, not many people bothered owning a pistol, in parts of the country including the likes of Dunblane people did not always lock their doors.
What needs to be done in the US is stop it being a political football, it needs to be a ‘sensible’ discussion that accepts banning won’t work, then work from there.
With 3D printing becoming more and more a thing, banning and detecting just gets harder.
Yeah most of the handguns here were miliary trophies or service pieces... my father's neighbour died over the summer and the police were called to collect his service issued pistol when it was found (his son has a farm and his licences allowed him to keep his dad's rifle and a couple of shotguns)
Yeah outlawing guns is totally gonna solve everything right?
Because if there’s one thing criminals are known for it’s their strict adherence to laws and rules.
the real reason that school shooting happened is because no one did any thing about it. People and the school knew that kid was unstable that the warning signs were there that he was posting alarming and disturbed content online and so much much more.
but no one did a thing.
Violence isn't a gun issue it’s a people issue. Banning guns isn’t gonna solve anything when the root cause isn’t being addressed.
People who are dead set on killing are going to do it no matter what with whatever is at their disposal.
if you wanna solve the issue of violence and killing then fix the root cause.. people. Otherwise it will never stop.
Well you have a problem with taking Weapons from people.
#1 we have nuclear weapons. The Geeny has been let out of the bottle and you can put him back.
#2 Then you have the question of who gets to carry or not.
#3 Every person on the Planet had a God given right Per The United States Constitution to defend his or herself from others and tyranny of The Government should they violate a person's Human and Constitution rights.
#4 if Police and soldiers are the only ones with weapons then you have a tyranny already in place.
#5 kinda Ironic isn't it that people with guns will take guns, and not give theirs up in the process?
In the USA there will be no way to outlaw guns, it just would not ever happen. We can't stop illegals, drugs or sex trafficking. Guns are already the 2nd most trafficked item as it is.
It would just turn all guns into illegal guns and there would still be a 100 million of them.
I can believe no one pulled a gun out because concealed carry does not mean do that all the time, it is a personal choice that many use for self defense, not necessarily in the defense of others.
They allow guns in schools here and there have never been a school shooting. Likely cause any potential shooter has no idea if every single employee is armed or not. The rule is, if its concealed its fine but if a gun is shown your in trouble.
I myself would not be alive today had I not been carrying and had to fire on a guy that was harming a woman. He stabbed and slashed me first though.
Well, I'm guessing no one whipped out their CC because it's a gun free zone... so kind of a silly question.
More laws aren't the answer, if someone really wants to hurt people they will find a way, if not a gun, a knife, or a bat or various other weapons of choice. It's a complex problem and I think a lot of it is rooted in mental health. I don't know what medications this kid was on but that's another contributor, violence in movies, games and music an kids getting exposed to this at an early age. Then as a gun owner myself, the irresponsibility of not keep the weapon secured and away from your kid.
As far as me being afraid about someone taking my guns away, not going to happen and we have the second amendment here for a reason.
Let’s ban law abiding citizens for the actions of criminals.
I’m not sure the criminals are going to follow this proposal and I can assure u that having a government with guns and the people with bandages isn’t going to work out either.
I am unaware of the situation u speak of but again, explain how the USA had trump and now has Biden in control, with so many raving lunatics With assault rifles n such vendettas against things.
-HOW COME ITS ALWAYS THE KIDS OR INNOCENT CIVILIANS BEING ATTACKED.
-HOW COME there's ALWAYS DODGY CIRCUMSTANCES INVOLVED THAT SEEM TO BE NON IMPORTANT.
AND HOW COME BRINGING UP THE SUBJECT OF ‘inside job’ CAUSES MORE CHAOS THAN THE SHOOTING ITSELF.
Open ur eyes to the smoke n mirrors n listen to those with nothing to gain.
R. I. P. Kidlets May the truth come forth n save us.
Home > Trending & News > Questions > Can you believe no one with a conceal carry permit whipped out their gun? At what point is it not simple common sense to outlaw firearms?
Most Helpful Opinions