The propaganda is thick. Are you aware that the Ukrainian counteroffensive has ended in disaster?

[RealMarek]

Over at least 10,000 KIA and 40,000 wounded/prisoners/MIAs later, the UAF remains bogged down in the security zone in front of the first main fortified line, with infantry crossing the line on foot at one location near Verbove. Media and officials that call this a breakthrough are lying. The stated goal at the outset was to reach the Sea of Azov.

[Anonymous]

Western propaganda machine is the most effective while they repeatedly feed their consumers a false narrative while dictating that any OTHER narrative is the "real" propaganda. They studied psychology to really get to their consumers and have them eating off their hand while they support the real culprits and really believe that russia is "paper tiger"...
the consumers of western propaganda have put away their common sense after being fed so much bullshit.

ukraine has been screaming for help since Russia went in 2022 and has not stopped begging for more billions, more weapons, more help because NOTHING is working, but somehow the western propaganda consumers still believe urkaine is winning. 🤡 RIGHT because the winners need MORE help that SURLEY makes sense. 🤯

Also usa started this war when obama and biden illegally barged into the ukraine to overthrow THAT country's democratically elected government to instal a pro nahtzhi one which is what initiated the civil war in urkaine where many people burned alive there in that REAL INSURRECTION caused BY biden and obama.

NOT the fake narrative they try to feed us now that russia invaded in 2014. If that were true then ukraine would have screamed for help since 2014 but they didn't, they only screamed in 2022 because that's when putin said ENOUGH! and finally went in.

in 2014 the only ones yelling and screaming for help where the ukranians who were being bombed by their own people! which is why crimea did the referrendum and voted to be part of russia not taken by russia but VOTED by the people because they were afraid of their own government which was now controlled by usa.

unfortunately the Donbas region were not as lucky as crimea and they were not able to avoid the bloodshed that ukraine unleashed onto it's own people.

nobody cared then, because the big western propaganda machine did not care how many died there, they NEEDED RUSSIA to go in to do what the propaganda is doing today, blaming all on russia and labeling it as an "UNPROVOKED" invasion.

yet russia didn't do what biden so anxiously waited for. Instead Russia asked for it to stop for more than 8 years. MISNK II MINSK II.. ignored ignored,

After 8 years that's enough! as so many people were being bombed there without anyone caring at all. All peaceful ways to end biden and obamas sick war in urkaine were ignored, Putin was forced to go in.

This is Biden's war which is why he is desperately sending so much help, nato weapons billions after billions even when we are in a trillion dollar debt.

biden and obama are the ones who should be in jail not trump being tried. Every single death after their ukraine insurrection is blood on their hands. Ukraine didn't need this, but biden didn't care. SAD. how many more will die because of that sick old man?

[zagor]

BS. Putin has been funding "insurrection" that consisted of Russian special forces for years. He is a fascist who jails and intimidates his opponents and lies to the Russian people. Things Trump wishes he could have done.

[Opinion Owner]

@zagor so you don’t just read propaganda you also repeat it. The ignorance.. 🤯

[zagor]

Really? So it is propaganda that publicly protesting the war in Russia can get you a 10 year stay in their wonderful humane prison system? That prominent opponents of Putin have an unfortunate habit of losing their balance on high window ledges? That no legitimate opposition candidate can get on the ballot? That most expat Russians who live outside the country and are free to speak their minds despise Putin and his war?

How's the weather in St. Petersburg?

[Opinion Owner]

@zagor damn lay off the propaganda dude.

[Bitterness]

This war should stop. So many people are dying.

[BuckCannon]

Trump offered to go over there over a year ago and negotiate a peace deal. Biden didn't let him. Nor is Biden trying to negotiate a peace deal. The people making money off of this don't want peace.

[RealMarek]

@BuckCannon There was actually an initialed peace deal (negotiated in Istanbul) that called for the full implementation of the Minsk2 accords and further negotiations on Crimea and security arrangements. The Russians withdrew from the area around Kiev when this deal was initialed (they were not routed, as Western media often claim). Washington immediately sent Boris Johnson to Kiev to threaten Zelensky and order him to renege on the Istanbul Agreement. The USG got the war it wanted and its disgusting to think of the hundreds of thousands of casualties that have occurred as a result. Even more disgusting is seeing American politicians say things like “We’ll fight to the last Ukrainian,” or “This is great because we’re hurting an enemy and the casualties are not Americans.” This sort of rhetoric is dishonorable and disregards the lives of non-Americans to say the least.

[BuckCannon]

So you mean that putting a Ukrainian flag on your Facebook page isn't helping?

[strateguy632]

but should ukraine lose its east coast?

[BoopBoopBeep]

@BuckCannon No you have to have a catchy hashtag too

[1073sucks]

@strateguy632 they were happily bombing the shit out of it when western propaganda didn't care to shed a word to it to you, why should they not lose it?

if you treat your wife or children bad, abuse them and torture them and kill some of them, why should you get to keep any of them? keep the ones you treated good and be happy with that, stop crying and begging for people to help you keep what you destroyed yourself. Basically.

[Anonymous]

This whole war has been completely manufactured and the propaganda is astonishing. Ukraine has admitted that the he lied about several things in the past—or rather the news media have more precisely. Take Snake Island. No, some defiant squad of Ukrainians did not tell a Russian naval ship to go F Itself before getting killed by bombs. The problem? None of them were actually killed by the Russians. It sure sounded good though, didn’t it? Zelensky even said he would honor the martyrs with medals.

Or the “Ghost of Kiev” fighter pilot who was shooting down planes. It sounds cool and heroic... but it was all just a propaganda story. There is no “Ghost of Ukraine.”

Or my favorite lie. The “mobile crematoriums.” There is no such thing. How do I know this? Because I literally did mortuary work in the military in the Middle East. During war.

Yet the news told us the Russians were massacring civilians and burning their bodies, disposing of the evidence of their war crimes!!!

And checking, JUST NOW, over a year later, YouTube says that “independent fact checkers” have never proven that claim.

Imagine that! It sure sounded like a good reason to send the Ukrainians billions of dollars though at the time!

This is called "manufacturing consent."

[goaded]

"YouTube says".

[BoopBoopBeep]

@goaded I mean... that's like one step away from gospel truth right there. Maybe the same, depending on the number of likes.

[goaded]

@BoopBoopBeep Depends on how truthful you think the gospel is, but, yes, you're right.

[Pohjolan]

It is entirely manufactured, by Russia. Also how would you know that the crematoriums are a lie?
Using them for destroying bodies wouldn't be among the lesser crimes they have done and the whole point of it is that its difficult to verify.
Forensics of the last dug up mass grave made by Russians revel that some of the victims were tortured and raped. You can't verify that very well if the body has been burned and the bones grinded to dust.
I certainly do hope that you were not tasked with covering up war crimes in ME.

[Opinion Owner]

@Pohjolan How do I know it is a lie? Because I literally worked in military mortuary and know how bodies are handled in war. There is no such thing as a mobile crematorium. It does not exist. I have been trained in military mortuary work in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The whole idea of mobile crematorium a is utterly ridiculous. So... you’re engaged in heavy fighting with small arms fire, tanks, artillery shells are flying... and you’re going to what? Bring up the crematoriums? LOL The Ukrainians are counter attacking. They too have their tanks and artillery, and you’re going to risk losing more men, more tanks jeeps and equipment, to take a pause and burn bodies?

You’ve got a war to win. You don’t have time to dispose of civilian dead, certainly not when you’re getting shot at or a drone is dropping a bomb on your head. The whole idea is completely absurd.

Believe what you want man. I just spent my time in the war sorting out the dead. SMH

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded en.m.wikipedia.org/.../Russian_usage_of_mobile_crematoriums_in_Ukraine

Snopes says.

[Pohjolan]

Firstly these "crematoriums" were designed originally for burning trash and that's what Russians claim to be using them for.
Secondly you are projecting. The Russian army doesn't work with Western army logic. Like some of their winter gear was made of flammable material, they purchased rubber bands as makeshift tourniquets that are cheaper than actual ones or no NATO military would prioritise civilian targets while the enemy has a working Air Force and Air Defence.
Putin never watched Battle of Britain. Moreover US troops occasionally DID burn bodies to reduce the risk of spreading diseases.
Thirdly the witness testimonies of them being used to burn bodies are were not close to the frontline at the time. Like in Mariupol specifically with almost a quarter of the pre-war population unaccounted for.

So no you haven't given any concrete reason to presume that the testimonies are false.

[Lliam]

Yup. But mainstream media and government spokesmen keep pretending like Russia is getting its ass kicked. At the same time, the falsify stories about Russian atrocities, all to keep the money flowing. Plucky Ukraine is fighting for democracy against the power-mad Putin. LOL

They don't care about the Ukrainian people, Americans, or anyone else.

Those profiteers who engineered the war are the only ones winning. They get money from the U. S. and other governments, but are mainly cashing in by taking control of Ukrainian natural resources and valuable farm land for pennies on the dollar. That's neoliberalism for ya.

[Curmudgeon]

Not only that, but it is time to dust off the maps of past Ukranian elections:

2004:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Ukrainian_presidential_election

2010:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian_presidential_election

2014 (LEGISLATIVE):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_parliamentary_election

Everybody starting to see a pattern here? And it falls right along ethnic and cultural lines...

[strateguy632]

wikipedia ! said

[goaded]

Nothing like election maps of the USA at all. Or the UK. Or Germany. Or pretty much any other democracy. People in different areas of every country have different priorities, they're still in the same country.

[Curmudgeon]

@goaded are you that obtuse? Yes, apparently so. Point is that the boundaries of the former Soviet "republics" were deliberately muddled. Armenia vs. Azerbaijan is the most glaring example, but so is the on paper Ukraine.

[goaded]

You mean the Soviets flooded other countries with Russian speakers? Now, a couple of generations later, they're claiming the land because it's got lots of Russian speaking people living there. The boundaries of Ukraine are the same in all three maps.

[RealMarek]

@goaded You really need to go back and research the history of the region before spouting nonsense like that. The east and south of modern-day Ukraine were already dominated by ethnic Russians long before the Soviet Revolution. Lenin intentionally incorporated ethnically Russian areas and Russian-speaking Ukrainian areas into Ukraine SSR. The region of Galicia (Lvov) was tacked on during WW2 and is much more “Western” than the other ethnic Ukrainian areas. Crimea was transferred from the Russian SFSR to Ukraine SSR by Khrushchev even though it never had a significant Ukrainian population.

[goaded]

The population of Crimea has been screwed with many times over the centuries. The Soviets under Lenin invaded and forced out the White Russians and then executed tens of thousands. The Crimean Tartars, the majority of the population of Crimea until the mid 19th century, were forcibly removed by Stalin after WWII. They were replaced by Ukrainians and Russians. Do you think the quarter million who moved back want to be Russian again?

The boundaries of Ukraine are still the same in all three maps. And Putin is taking non-Russians out of Crimea and Ukraine.

upload.wikimedia.org/.../...%80%9321st_century.png

[RealMarek]

@goaded The Crimean Tatars have nothing to do with this conflict. They are not getting Crimea back any more than the Greeks who were deported from Western Anatolia over 100 years ago will get their homes back.

[goaded]

Of course they do, they're Ukrainian citizens. And I very much doubt they want to be under Russian control any more than their ancestors wanted to be forcibly shipped off thousands of kilometers away.

[Curmudgeon]

@goaded Once again, you take a tragic historical fact and then immediately proceed to *deny the current realities that have come from it*.

The areas that Russia has "taken" are chock full of ethnic Russian supermajorities, who are unhappy at - and backlashing against - the hyper-nationalistic turn that ethnic Ukrainians have taken in recent years, which has led to ethnic Ukrainians crapping all over the ethnic Russians.

And this Ukrainian hyper-nationalism *is totally understandable*, like you stated, as the Soviet system was pooping all over them for decades, up to and including genocide, known as the Holodomor. But that wasn't the fault of the average ethnic Russian, who was just a pawn in that whole evil system too.

And it gets worse when you realize that the boundaries of the former "Soviet Republics" (sic) were not drawn with the various ethnics in mind, but rather for internal Party reasons. Even long before Lenin, places like the Crimea have been overwhelmingly ethnic Russian for centuries, and Sevastopol was an important Russian port back to Peter the Great days.

After 90 odd years, we have to accept that people are where they are. What are we going to do? Kick out the Russians that came into the on paper Ukraine during Lenin's and Stalin's time, as I am sure the Ukrainian nationalists wish? So, will Poland want the "Kresy" back? And Germany East Prussia and Silesia? Those borders that we have today were also made by Stalin's brutality:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia

[Curmudgeon]

@goaded Are you such a fool that you really think the West has the political will and Ukraine has the manpower to turn the clock back that far? Because to do it opens up again border issues that NATO thought were settled among its members (e. g., Kresy, East Prussia and Silesia). And the political reality is that NATO is *not* going to put "boots on the ground" to undo what happened under the Soviets. There simply is no political will for that in the NATO countries.

You can "virtue signal" on a growing pile of dead bodies and keep fighting to the last dead Ukranian, but an important rule of Foreign Policy is: Don't. Make. Promises. You. Cannot. Keep. Domestically a leader does that and may get humiliated and may or may not get un-elected next election cycle, but in terms of foreign policy making promises that cannot be realistically kept sadly all too often leads to piles of dead bodies.

[goaded]

The reality is that Ukraine has been a country with its current, internationally accepted, borders since the fall of the Soviet Union. If there are parts of the country who want independence, there are democratic ways to attain it, and diplomatic ways countries can apply pressure if they're being oppressed.

What is unacceptable is annexing another country's land. That's a war of aggression and a war crime. (Russia agreed in 1997 that Crimea belonged to Ukraine en.wikipedia.org/.../Russian%E2%80%93Ukrainian_Friendship_Treaty .)

Now, where you are wrong:

1. Crimea, at least has not "been overwhelmingly ethnic Russian for centuries", not even 100 years. (And Russia always had use of Sevastopol.)

2. Nobody was kicking out the ethnic Russians from Crimea in 2014

3. I'm not blaming ethnic Russians living in Ukraine, I'm blaming Putin.

4. What caused Russia to invade in 2014 was the people of Ukraine deciding they didn't want a corrupt Putin puppet running the country and stealing elections. Even before that, Russia was giving Russian passports to Ukrainians, probably so that Putin could say he was "saving" Russian citizens.

5. Putin isn't up for realistic election, he hasn't been for decades now.

6. Ukraine didn't start this war. It's up to them how long they're willing to go on fighting. I've never said or even implied that NATO should involve itself in the war, but countries should support other democratic countries that are under attack. Not least because democracy is under attack worldwide by people who want to take the world back a lot longer that 100 years, back to the times of absolute rulers and freedom only for the powerful.

[RealMarek]

@goaded The Euromaidan was a US-backed coup. We have the phone recordings of Victoria Nuland discussing the coup and who the US would install into power. It wasn’t backed by “the people of Ukraine,” just the people of Galicia and Ukraine west of the Dnieper excluding Odessa.

“Putin isn't up for realistic election” Well, Zelensky banned elections and jailed his opposition. Nice democracy.

“but countries should support other democratic countries that are under attack” Even if they consistently violate peace treaties (Minsk1, Minsk2, and Istanbul) and their most elite military units have literal Nazi symbols and ideology?

[goaded]

Was it really? Prove it. Can't you conceive of people wanting democracy in their country?

The Ukranian consititution pauses elections in time of war, that's Putin's fault. The Russian constitution said presidents can serve for two consecutive terms, Putin served for two terms, installed a puppet for one term then returned. I'm pretty sure he got that part of the constitution changed as well.

[D_Bone_Steak]

Propaganda is definitely at war levels... say anything the powers that be don't like and you can find yourself getting the Russel Brand treatment quick.

With that said... we know what's happening if 4 mystery women from 20 years ago suddenly accuse me of farting in their faces while they slept... I'm innocent, I swear. Don't send me to Andrew Tate jail. (-_-)

What's sad is it's like I'm watching a smooth swap from any COVID nay say suppression straight to this Ukraine stuff. At least the war stuff makes sense, but I believe all that COVID-19 hysteria is going to be a college course in the near future. It was rife with bullshit and suppression of facts.

[Avicenna]

It's no surprise- they attacked entrenched defenses, which is difficult to do, but, yeah, there has been tons of propaganda surrounding this useless war.

Ukraine is a corrupt place where the US has no national interest. It's time to bring this war to its conclusion before the Russians really do destroy Ukraine to the point that it won't ever be an independent going concern, which they will be glad to do even if it takes years of war.

[Lionman95]

Truth is the first thing that dies in a war as a proverb goes I once heard. What did you expect? I wouldn´t call it a disaster. That´s what a war is. People dying is part of the situation. I didn´t expect them to win back smoothly and quickly. It´s a complicated where both sides have a lot to lose so it´s not going to be easy.

[OddBeMe]

I’m not an expert at all…but from what I read the Ukrainians broke through the Russian defensive lines and “good indicators” are present. This could be BS from Zelenskyy wanting more war money, that’s his job.

But I’m not seeing the disaster you report.

[RealMarek]

@OddBeMe The problem with this war is that the headlines are often false or very misleading in subtle ways. If one reads carefully there are sometimes admissions in the fine print or back pages that corroborate analyses such as the map I posted to go with the question. I have followed this war closely and have been careful to find sources that rely on geolocated video evidence to discern what is verified from what is propaganda.

As for the definition of “defensive lines” and “breakthrough,” the media use these terms loosely. Have the Ukrainians captured trenches and villages in front of the heavily fortified continuous defense lines? Yes. Have they taken control of one small part of the first continuous line (one of the ones with tank traps, dragons teeth, etc.) with small infantry groups that move by foot? Yes. The men who get that far are unfortunately unable to retreat and exposed to massive artillery fire. Has the UAF achieved a breakthrough anywhere on the Zaparozhia Front? No. A breakthrough means an army has taken control of a defensive line and the means to cross it with motorized forces. The Ukrainians cannot get any heavy equipment across the first major line of defense.

[RealMarek]

There are no good indicators for Ukraine in this offensive. The assumption coded into NATO’s simulation of the offensive was that the Russian forces would be demoralized and uncoordinated and run. That is not what happened. They stayed and put up stubborn resistance. Budanov’s claim that the UAF would be fishing in Crimea by the end of the summer proved false. Petraeus’s claim that combined arms tactics would result in a collapse of the Russian front within days was quickly proved false. Milley’s subsequent claim that a breakthrough would be achieved within six to eight weeks has also proven false. Now Zelensky claims the Ukrainians will take Tokmak this winter. You are right that this is to keep the money pumping into Ukraine and the defense industry. Given the pace of operations thus far it would take a miracle for that to happen. All of this is verifiable by comparing the promises and predictions of Western officials with actual progress shown on pro-Ukrainian mapping sites like Live UA Maps.

[OddBeMe]

Sure but you’re saying it’s a total disaster and there’s no sense of that in western news agencies. They’re corporate biased but not idiotic. Lol

[RealMarek]

They are thoroughly controlled.

[1073sucks]

imagine searching in pro western propaganda engines and then posting based on that. 🤡 .. oh wait you did do that. 🤯

[exitseven]

Yes, lets face it, did anyone really think that Ukraine had a shot at winning this thing. ?

[RealMarek]

It seems like most Americans, even a lot of those who were skeptical about the lockdowns, were convinced. I can see why given the extremely misleading headlines.

[exitseven]

This thing was a black hole from day 1. I said it will make Vietnam look like a playground skirmish Biden just made sure no American kids would come home in body bags Otherwise tens of billions have been sent to Ukraine with no accountability. Everyone gets rich and the taxpayers get screwed.

[slatyb]

Since you are disagreeing with other sources, what's yours?

[RealMarek]

Look at several pro-Ukrainian mapping sites like Institute for the Study of War or Live UA Maps. Ignore their rhetoric and observe the location of the front. See that the front is nowhere near the Sea of Azov, not even near Tokmak, and that there are no motorized Ukrainian forces pouring rapidly over the first major, continuous line of defense. This quickly demonstrates that the headlines are pure propaganda and highly misleading.

The only way get a better sense of what is happening on the ground is to find independent sources that look at geolocated video evidence and plot it on the types of maps I mentioned above.

[goaded]

What did you say about Russia's initial offensive, which was to take Kyiv within days and take the whole country? How well did that go?

[RealMarek]

@goaded The only people who told us Russia intended to take Kiev in days were Western officials and media. The force they sent toward Kiev was far too small to take the city and they knew that. Instead, they were trying to put pressure on Zelensky to get him to the negotiating table. It worked. The Ukrainians initialed a peace deal in Istanbul (it essentially called for the implementation of the Minsk2 agreement and negotiations on Crimea and security arrangements) and those forces were withdrawn. Then the West ordered Zelensky to renege on the deal, and we got a long war.

[goaded]

You're right, this is thick propaganda! (Does thick also mean stupid in America?) Russia deployed paratroops to take over the airport 10km from Kyiv. You're going to claim it wasn't so they could land more forces, because you're making shit up.

[slatyb]

Since you didn't provide a reference to any of those sources, I can only conclude that you are just a pro-Russian troll.

[RealMarek]

@goaded I’m not going to hold your hand and do the research for you. All of this is easily found. The Russians never went in with a force large enough to even attempt the capture of Kiev. This means they were completely stupid (that’s the Western elites’ narrative) or they had other objectives which actually fit with the timing of other events that were widely reported in the mainstream press (like Ukraine initialing the Istanbul agreement). As for the battle at Antonov Airport, it was all part of the Russian effort to pressure Kiev and it was a battle they lost, which is bound to happen in war. The Russian Army also had to tolerate the heaviest losses they took during the war because they were not pacifying the countryside that they moved through. But remember, Ukraine did go to the negotiating table at Istanbul.

[goaded]

Oh, the first refuge of someone who's got no proof: "I’m not going to hold your hand and do the research for you."

Followed up by pretending black is white and that the standard mission of paratroops isn't to secure objectives so that re-enforcements can join the fight. If anyone was "bought to the negotiating table", it was Putin.

[RealMarek]

@goaded I didn’t dispute any of the events at the airport. Their mission was to secure it, but that doesn’t mean their mission was to secure it permanently in order to storm Kiev.

[goaded]

Of course their mission was to secure it in order to storm Kiev. Nice use of the word "permanently", considering they were only expected to do so until support arrived. That support would have been expected to storm Kyiv. As you know, of course, you're just lying.

[RealMarek]

@goaded So do you think the Russians were just complete morons about war and that’s why they sent far fewer troops than necessary to storm Kiev? It doesn’t add up. They have mathematical theater simulation just like we do.

[goaded]

No, I think you're a propagandist who's trying to avoid admitting that the head of the spear is not the whole spear. Paratroops were sent to take airports so that more attackers could be brought in. They failed, and you're pretending that they were never meant to succeed, which would mean Russia sent them there to die or be captured.

Which is more likely?

[RealMarek]

@goaded I never said they were meant to fail, but an attempt to storm Kiev would never rely on air transport to that airport. With heavy air defense in Kiev at the time it would have been impossible to fly heavy equipment and infantry in by air even if they captured the airport, so the airport was not in any way the lynchpin of the larger operation. You’re assertions make no sense from a military perspective.

I’m not a propagandist. Nobody pays me to write this stuff. But of course that’s what a propagandist would say. I could just as easily accuse you of being a propagandist, given your close adherence to USG talking points.

[goaded]

Yeah, the armoured column advance to Kyiv also failed. And you're here pretending they weren't really trying, in which case they were expected to fail.

They flew in the paratroopers, didn't they? Perhaps they were also meant to take out any air defences. What makes you think there was heavy air defence in Kyiv before the full-on invasion, anyway?

[RealMarek]

@goaded Ukraine had a lot of S300 systems at the beginning of the war. Russia had spent weeks massing military on their borders. It wasn’t a surprise attack. Flying in paratroopers in low-flying helicopters is not the same as flying mechanized forces in by cargo jet. The latter would be far more vulnerable to air defense.

As for whether the armored columns failed, it is entirely dependent on what their goal was. You insist the only possible goal was to take Kiev. That means the Russian MoD is run by idiots because anyone with a modicum of knowledge would have known the force was insufficent to surround the city. If the goal was to bring Ukraine to the negotiating table and get them to initial a peace agreement, they were successful. I’m not saying they “weren’t really trying,” just that they were not trying what you insist they were trying. I’m sure we’ll never agree about this.

[goaded]

Yes, you are saying they weren't really trying, because how do you bring people to a negotiating table by being stopped in your tracks?

Just to be clear, you're claiming that the paratroopers that failed to capture the airport didn't matter because Russia couldn't have landed reinforcements there anyway, and that the armoured column that was heading directly towards Kyiv didn't really want to get there because there weren't enough of them to surround the city...

Ask yourself this: would there have been peace negotiations if the paratroopers had taken the airports, eliminated the air defences, allowing in reinforcements, and the armoured column (which would only have had to occupy the city centre) had reached Kyiv?

I think we both know the answer, but you're not willing to admit it.

[RealMarek]

@goaded I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Taking the airport would obviously put additional pressure on Zelensky. I’m not saying the armored column didn’t want to get to Kiev, but it is clear that they were not meant to invest or storm the city. The force simply wasn’t large enough for that. I could say you know this answer and are not willing to admit it, but that would be rude.

[goaded]

What I'm getting at is that nobody throws military assets away for nothing. Putin tried to take Kiev, they got to within 30 km of it. They failed. It wasn't an attempt to bring Ukraine to the negotiating table, they didn't want or need that, they wanted Ukraine.

It's also funny that you paint the stalling of the counter offensive against a well established defensive line in depth as a disaster, when Ukraine stopping an all-out Russian invasion is not.

[RealMarek]

@goaded Well, we just have a complete difference of opinion. You don’t believe Russia needed or wanted Ukraine to negotiate. I do, especially because it is a fact that negotiations happened and Ukraine agreed to (finally) implement Minsk2. Believe what you want, we simply disagree. As for the counteroffensive, the goal of reaching the Sea of Azov was stated clearly. Four months, tens of thousands of lives later, and appalling losses of armor (including Western armor), and they’re nowhere near that objective. Worse, the losses were disproportionately borne by elite, NATO-trained units. Believe what you want. The war will run its course and it will become obvious that Ukraine never had a chance at winning an attritional conflict with Russia.

[goaded]

We disagree because your assertions disagree with the facts. You don't invade a country and head for its capital city with a multi-pronged attack in order to re-negotiate a treaty you were already ignoring. The independent OSCE said the Russian-backed separatists were going against "the letter and spirit of the Minsk Protocol", and said that they would "further complicate its implementation" by holding "elections" in 2014. Russia, of course, claimed they weren't. Have you not worked out that Russia lies a lot?

I don't know if Ukraine will succeed in pushing Russia out of its territory, honestly, I didn't expect them to last a week when the invasion came. I do know who the war criminal aggressors are, and it's not the Ukrainians.

[BigDog1989]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm-V_uYuoHI

Beg to differ

[RealMarek]

This is outright lying. The Ukrainians have not even approached the second defense line. No geolocated footage there, and there would be if they had made it there.

[Pohjolan]

Its not over yet and they are making gains. If UA can bring the main railway line Russia needs for supplying their troops then the orcs will have a most unpleasant winter.

[RealMarek]

I discussed their gains. They’ve made it to the first line of defense. They’re nowhere near that rail in Melitopol and they are running out of time before mud season.

[Pohjolan]

Take a second look at the map. The railway to Melitopol goes through Tokmak.

[RealMarek]

An alternate route south of all the fortified lines has been under construction and is almost complete. Also, there is no way the Ukrainians can make it to Tokmak before mud season. They haven’t even made it past Robotyne or Verbove.

[MJtheCoach]

Did you know why you are most people talk about Ukraine? There’s at least five more wars going on, including one and Omar?
Did you know the biggest problem with the war in the Ukraine? Is it the government itself?

[jimmy2]

My God with all the money most countries have sent why are they not done

On a lighter sited
NATO hit the Russian navy the other day WW3 is here and NATO did it on purpose

[RealMarek]

They’re not done because it is impossible to take a fortified line while suffering an artillery and airpower disadvantage.

[Anonymous]

It pains me to see how my male brothers kill each other while the women run away like cockroaches.

[nonyabeez-wax]

Sounds like an utter failure...

[Exterminatore]

Military industrial complex has to make its money.

[Anonymous]

Cheapest war we ever fought.

[RealMarek]

Source?

[Opinion Owner]

The history of wars the US government has funded. Like how much it cost to defeat the Soviet Union 1945- 1991. Eventually the Ukrainians will have to give up or Russia will come to the peace table but the damage and cost to Russia will have been done.

[RealMarek]

Have you looked at the economy and debt load of Western Europe and compared it to Russia’s since the outbreak of this war? Have you considered the cost the US is incurring to itself by accelerating de-dollarization? This war is a lot more costly than the price tag you hear quoted in the media.

[Opinion Owner]

Europe can well afford the debt. The EU is the largest economy in the world.
The US is underwriting the us economy by producing new weapons and replacing the entire inventory of the us military. Debt is find provided you have the resources and GDP to back it up.
Russia has lost about over a year of its GDP & probably the next ten years. Its having to sell its exports dirt cheap in exchange for resources it needs. Russia is basically being extorted by India and China. This means less weapons, less military resources and less military personnel in the field.
The Russian economy was already under pressure in 2016 when Obama lowered the price of oil/gas by fracking, that meant the modernisation of the Russian military was stalled.

[RealMarek]

“Debt is find provided you have the resources and GDP to back it up” Much of our GDP is not actual production, but financialization and government spending. Anyway, debt does matter when it exceeds 100% of GDP unless one has the reserve currency and can export inflation to overseas trading partners. Our actions in this war have accelerated de-dollarization. Come back to me in ten years and we’ll see how much the median household in America pays for this.

All of your rhetoric about Russian GDP is just parroting propaganda. If you look at more serious articles you will find plenty of admissions that their economy is doing quite well and they are now selling oil at prices well above Yellen’s oil price cap.

[Opinion Owner]

We've heard something similar right up until the Soviet Union collapsed. All the us has to do is start franking again and oil prices will drop.
The US has barely tapped into its own natural resources and us is an abundance of wealth. For the last 70 years we've been exploiting the resources of the third world. Might actually encourage those yahoo's in Congress to start investing in us infrastructure and modernising all us industries.

[RealMarek]

“We've heard something similar right up until the Soviet Union collapsed.” No, it is far different this time. The deficit hawks of the 1980s didn’t understand how the petrodollar system worked. There was no danger of dedollarization in the 1980s. It’s actually occurring rapidly now. We can no longer simply export our inflation at will.

“All the us has to do is start franking again and oil prices will drop.” Declining peak initial production rates in the Permian suggest we can’t have the same sort of shale boom we had last decade. It would help typical Americans if we would drill here at home, but the dollar would still be affected by dedollarization especially given the reduced use of dollars to denominate oil trade if we import less oil.

Totally agree with the last paragraph, but our current elites are ideologically committed to deindustrialization.

[strateguy632]

propaganda too

[RealMarek]

What part is propaganda? The UAF is either near the Sea of Azov by now or they are not. Our leaders either said that was the goal or they didn’t (hint: they did). Even pro-Ukrainian mappers admit the UAF hasn’t even gotten past Robotyne or Verbove.

[Anonymous]

i dont give a rat's arse

[historectomy]

dang, didn't ask tho