This is a revision of my previous myTake in response to some of the criticisms regarding generalisations, political correctness and lack of sensitivity in clarification. In light of this it is a lot more detailed. But so that new readers of this discussion topic do not have to back track, I will provide an overview quoted from and summarising the former article:
'A common argument against proclaiming yourself an egalitarian rather than a feminist is that women are the more socially disadvantaged group in society, therefore there needs to be more focus on their rights. In light of the developments of 20th century feminism, I argue that it is no longer the case that women are the subjugated sex. I do this by focussing on some of the disadvantages of being a man in today's world. This does not mean women have it easy, it just means female inequality is being exaggerated in a world of third-wave feminism. The men's inequalities listed are just a few from a issue growing in complexity are often being marginalised by women who want to hold on to the feminist agenda. If you raise these issues, you are accused of being a misogynist. In light of them, I would encourage GaG readers to identify as egalitarians rather than feminists because any other label aggravates gender wars and hatred of the opposite sex.''
Political Correctness and Egalitarianism
Several things were wrong with my phrasology of sensitive issues in this introductory paragraph.
As one user noted,
'By saying your a feminist, you're not taking away any rights that men have you're just acknowledging a lack of equality.'
And my response to the same user,
'This is true. However the emphasis of being a FEMinist is on women's rights on the assumption that women's rights are the most marginalised in society, so we need to focus on women's rights to get equality. In this mytake, my argument is that both women's and men's rights can be marginalised, hence the focus needs to be shifted onto a more gender netural term such as 'egalitarianism'. I should have made this clearer.'
The same user, elucidated other arguments that should have been addressed in the article. In relation to these I note that while feminism acknowledges the issue in regards to patriarchy and men's rights that 'with egalitarianism, the focus would be on neither men's or women's rights specifically and all forms of hierarchy (including, but not limited to patriarchy) would be attacked.'
However, on thing I did have to say on this specific issue was that 'there are not enough female leaders - female politicians and business women. Representation would go a long way here in ironing out what is in my opinion, the last of women's rights concerns after three successive waves of 20th century feminism.' On the other hand, it is not just men subjugating men in society and the elite minority who hold most of the power are composed of more than just cis-white males. For this reason, blaming 'patriarchy' is a simplification.
Another point I had to make was that other justifiable instances of subjugated-group rights advocacy were set in a '[d]ifferent historical context. For example, I could agree with black rights advocacy when by and large they were still a subjugated group in society. I could also agree with the perspective of women's liberationists before women had basic rights, such as the right to vote...However, in this article, the perspective is put forward that after three waves of feminism, women have (by and large) attained equal rights. The current context is that gender issues need to be resolved on both sides and (as I have tried to elucidate in the article), neither side necessarily has it worse. That is why a focus on one particular side can be counter-productive.'
Non-Gender Oriented Issues
In listing the issues from the original article, I emphasised that 'it is no longer the case that women are the subjugated sex' in order to disprove the feminist assertion that 'women are the more socially disadvantaged group in society, therefore there needs to be more focus on their rights' specifically. 'I [did] this by focussing on some of the disadvantages of being a man in today's world. This does not mean women have it easy, it just means female inequality is being exaggerated in a world of third-wave feminism.'
We live in a world where both genders have their equal and separate issues, but as one user pointed out that 'men do [have problems] as well which we as a society do not like to talk about'. Here is a list of those issues along with the descriptions and how I should have phrased them more correctly:
1. More men are victims of assault
Specifically violent assault, as I should have specified. This goes without saying however one user did raise a valid objection, namely that 'More men are victims of assault caused by, guess what, OTHER MEN!!' As I explained to the same user, 'This still means that it is a disadvantage that non-violent men should not have to deal with. We should also look at the way society treats this disadvantage, e. g. by dismissing its significance ("it's men's own fault if they are going to be violent towards one another") or by neglecting to emphasise the importance of male self-defence lessons at a young age on the false assumption that women need it more because they are physically weaker.'
2. Sexual assault and rape is emasculating and humiliating for men
As it is for women also. In fact the focus here is on the 'emasculting' effect, specifically that anal rape has on the male victim. However many users were offended by this statement, leading to remarks such as:
'Are you honestly trying to say that getting raped is any more humiliating for a man than for a woman?'
'Sexual assault is bad regardless of gender...There is no such thing as a "worse" sexual assault experience. They are all equally as bad.'
In regards to these comments, my views can be summarised below:
'"[A]s a man, you are more likely to be anally raped and society is going to tell you that you are less of a man because of it." Additionally, "as a woman, it is a truly horrible and humiliating experience but there is simply not going to be the same emasculating experience."
When you think about this, it makes sense. As a man being anally raped, it is like you are the "woman" or the "bitch": for the rest of your life, you will feel like you are not a real man and not just because society tells you so (it is in our nature to be dominant - testosterone exaggerates this intinctive urge). As a woman, you will feel humiliated, degraded and violated. But you will not be made to feel like "more of a woman".'
Furthermore,
'I should have addressed this issue more sympathetically because I am sure that some of the people reading this will have been rape victims. That said, male rape victims will probably have a clearer understanding of what I mean by 'emasculation'.'
3. Women are genetically predisposed to live longer lives.
Many users correctly point out that this is a genetic imbalance and not the fault of anyone but nature. In this respect I direct genetic issues only towards feminists who put emphasis on their own genetic imbalances (e.g. period pains, child birth, physical vulnerability, etc.). In actual fact however, the focus was actually on the way society deals with this imbalance given that in many countries, 'women have earlier retirement ages than men.'
4. Men have to play the 'traditional dating game'
'Always having to be 'the man' - do the approach, lead the interaction, buy her nice stuff, etc. This is all part and parcel with the supposed privilige of [being male]'.
I stand by this comment. Some users have pointed out that this fact is changing but it is still a rare situation that women don't expect men to play the 'traditional dating game' - which means more than just initiating the interaction but the general chivalry that is required afterwards.
5. Women might get periods but it's men that have to suffer the emotional turbulence
If there was a consensus that one point in particular was stupid it was this one. As one user said, I should have focussed more exclusively on the impact of emotional turbulence in a relationship. In light of this, I have rephrased the gender specific issue as follows:
'more men than women have to deal with emotional turbulence from their spouse in a relationship - this is excacerbated by natural hormones during ovary cycles. women have to put up with their own issues but they are not necessarily disadvantaged since a lot of men will have to deal with their issues also - which are not their own. women can also control whether or not they project their emotions on to others.'
I also addressed the argument that this is a biological issue and therefore not the fault of any particular gender, or society:
'Biologically this is a disadvantage for women (as are erectile dysfunction, higher cancer rates [namely prostate] and lower life expectency for men). However biological disadvantages are never the fault of the opposite gender or society, therefore for things like emotional turbulence (not exclusive to period pains), people have a responsibility not to externalise their own issues onto the other gender. Not all women do this, but lots of men will be able to attest that it is something of a common theme.'
6. More men work blue collar labour and pay rates in white collar labour are roughly equal between genders
https://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap
Most users did not really have an issue with this specific statement.
7. Men don't get as much parental leave
And, as I skimmed over, '[t]hey also have less parental rights when it comes to divorce proceedings.'
Users mainly had objections to this statement on the basis that it is something that occurs for biological reasons rather than outright prejudice towards men. On this note, I had the following argument to make:
'both genders could probably do with more rights from employers regarding parental leave and although women should by and large have longer time off work due to biology, this doesn't mean that parental leave as an issue should be marginalised for either gender.'
8. It's easier for women to get their ideal shape
My argument here was that '[t]he calorie consumption, bulking and cutting, and inducing muscular hytrophy from free weights is 10 times harder and more complicated than the exercise routines women need to keep in good shape'.
I argued here that putting on lean muscle mass with low bodyfat percentage is more difficult than losing bodyfat. However, I should have provided more detail here given the fact that - as most women would attest to - women have slower metabolisms and
'tbh, my own personal experience as a man is that it's never been hard staying slim (and we are, generally speaking, bigger builds than women) but nothing in my life has ever been harder than bulking up - doing reps to failure, stimulating muscular hypertrophy, doing tough lifts like squat and deadlift, building up core strength and flexibility required to do this lifts with good form, going into calorie excess during bulking phases, calorie deficit phases to cut down on bodyfat. there are few things in life that challenge you as much physically or psychologically.'
Furthermore,
'The point was about female vs male aesthetics and as a guy who has been 'in shape' most of his life (even during periods of time when I wasn't exercising much), I don't think it's really hard to lose body fat. Sure you can argue female metabolisms are slower - and my metabolism is particularly fast - but by and large men have larger frames (more mass even if less of it is muscle).
disciplines like ballet, yoga, gymnastics and martial arts can be extremely tough but that is because they demand significantly more than just cardiovascular activity. this is: core strength, flexibility, muscular endurance, strong joints, balance, etc.
bodybuilding is another thing altogether, while weightlifting (both powerlifting and olympic weightlifting) is the most physically demanding of all sports in my opinion because it requires all the aforementioned abilities (core strength, flexibility, etc.) while also requiring dynamic strength (predominantly fast twitch type I and II fibres, but also slow twitch). To maximise barbell weight, co-ordination, finely tuned technique and timing are crucial and the lifter has to keep his cool under heavy weights while keeping certain muscle groups heavily engaged (usually the posterior chain). Injury is quite common, and heavy division weightlifters will need to put weight on at some point paying attention to fat: muscle ratio (since they can't just put on fat although everything helps).'
9. Men are shamed for seeking counselling
By and large, there wasn't much objection to this point. One user had more to say about this fact:
'Generally no, counseling isn't built for men. More women use it, thus it's designed to cater to their needs, thus more women use it. I have heard of a few people doing talks, research, writing books and whatnot relating to how men usually deal with shit, so I think things may just now be beginning to change.'
10. Men are 'creep-shamed'
Like I said, 'men are shamed for failing to approach a woman the way she wants to be approached, or for not being the confident, attractive man she wanted to be approached by. This is in spite of the pressure society puts on men to be the initiator.' I think I addressed the most intuitive objection to this, 'don't be creepy if you don't want to be creep-shamed' when I explained the following:
'Men are often creep shamed just for not being an attractive or confident man when they make an approach. It doesn't mean they are actually a creep. No offense, but as a woman you won't have the same experience getting rejected on mass to find a partner. It's tough work, a little scary even. There's a very good reason PUA (pick-up artistry) is becoming more and more popular with sexually unsatisfied men.'
This is especially the case in a society which has placed emphasis on the gender role of the male to be initiator (men are pressurised into approaching and yet simultaneously being shamed for it).
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