Women need to stop whining about 'nice guys'

evenlift

The root of the 'nice guy' problem

The 'nice guy' simply takes the conventional morality of altruism, the code of self-sacrifice, more seriously than other men do. The problem is, life requires self-assertion. Even basic survival itself requires enough selfishness to acquire food and water. The pursuit of romance and sex, too, requires self-assertion.

But, altruism has been promoted since the beginning of history. So, why has the 'nice guy' problem become so much worse now? The answer is that the culture has become more consistently altruistic in recent decades, one major manifestation being the rise of feminism (it is ironic that feminists rage against the 'nice guys' whom they have helped to create).

Women need to stop whining about 'nice guys'

A typical feminist ad-hominem fallacy against 'nice guys'. Anything to avoid discussing substantive questions. And, by the way, not very 'nice' of the feminists, is it?

Why the 'nice guy' controversy infuriates women

The 'nice guy' is unattractive to women because of his passivity, and, yet, he is the embodiment of the morality that almost everyone was raised to believe. As such, women's disgust towards 'nice guys' makes women feel insecure in their world-view and indeed very guilty, which leads to anger.

Women need to stop whining about 'nice guys'

"Did you just say the 'n'-word?"

The attempts to rationalize the disgust against 'nice guys'

One common claim is that 'nice guys' aren't really nice, because, if they were really nice, they would not expect anything in return for their niceness. This, indeed, is true, according to conventional morality. But, no one is really nice, apart from any person aiming for immediate suicide. Remember: even basic survival requires selfishness. But, since there is a spectrum of niceness, women should surely prefer the 'nice guy' as the best alternative to celibacy. The fact that they don't illustrates the fact that this is just an attempt to rationalize the contradiction between their ethics and their sexual desires.

Another claim is that 'nice guys' believe that 'niceness' should be enough to earn a woman's affections. Even if they did believe that, the question would still arise, why is 'niceness' such a turn-off that cheaters, rapists, murderers et al have less trouble winning women's affections than 'nice guys' do? Whatever the lack of 'niceness', real or imagined, of the 'nice guys', will anyone dare to claim that the 'nice guy' is more evil than the rapist or the murderer?

Women need to stop whining about 'nice guys'

This murderer got female attention after he stopped whining and started killing. I wish that were a sick joke and not the truth.

The solution to the 'nice guy' problem

The solution is the rejection of the false morality of altruism and the teaching of the true morality of selfishness, which means doing what is objectively in one's self-interest, neither sacrificing others to oneself nor oneself to others. The altruists tell us (with devastating effect, as in the above example) that that is not possible: either one tolerates being murdered, assaulted or cheated on, or one murders, assaults or cheats, right? Wrong, of course.

In a rational world, the more selfish men would receive more romantic interest, and, even in this irrational world, I, as a truly selfish man, receive plenty of romantic interest. The trouble, in fact, is finding a woman worthy of reciprocation, in other words a truly selfish woman.

Women need to stop whining about 'nice guys'

Women need to stop whining about 'nice guys'
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Most Helpful Girl

  • XRabbitHeartX
    I see more guys whining about "nice guys" than women. Being a nice person is NOT a bad thing. No healthy minded girl purposely goes for guys who treats her like shit. People need to get this bizarre mentality out of their heads that we as women are constantly on the prowl for guys who aren't nice. Actually we very much like "nice" guys who have positive attributes BUT that's not enough to make us feel a romantic connection. Chemistry and attraction doesn't appear just cause you're a nice person. If that was so then I wouldn't be single right now.

    The problem here is many guys who have been rejected get angry and then assume every guy who dates a girl who doesn't like him is somehow a "asshole" or bad guy. Reality is MANY guys are nice people. There are far more nice guys than assholes so likely the girl who is supposedly dating all the "assholes" is in reality not actually doing that but you as the guy assume he's a asshole just cause you didn't get a chance to date her. It's a typical ego thing that I've noticed guys do. They make other guys out to be terrible just for not having a shot with a specific girl and then blame all women for not liking "nice guys".

    The issue here isn't women. It's men who can't face rejection and automatically assume it's the GIRL's fault for naturally not feeling romantic feelings towards him. Heaven forbid she just doesn't feel attraction that strong towards you and then it's assumed she goes for assholes all the time and that her preferences are to somehow date a dude who isn't nice just cause you are nice... I'm pretty sure the humor in all this is clear.
    Is this still revelant?
    • evenlift

      It's clear that you didn't bother to read my myTake. I actually do address many of the points you raise.

    • "why is 'niceness' such a turn-off that cheaters, rapists, murderers et al have less trouble winning women's affections than 'nice guys' do"

      That very statement kinda proves to me you are no different than the guys I'm addressing in my opinion. If you read my opinion clearly then you'd see how I was challenging you on many of your points and yes I did actually read everything.

    • evenlift

      You really haven't read my myTake. If you had, you would know that I reject niceness as a false morality. I advocate selfishness as the true morality.

    • Show All

Most Helpful Guy

  • AleDeEurope
    The problem is that "nice guys" believe that every woman has to fall for them because he's nice, that doesn't work like that.
    The self-proclaimed "nice guys" are the equivalent of the vast majority of women today. They think that because they dress nice and have a vagina they are entitled to have men crawling for them, and it doesn't work like that.
    No one likes someone that thinks they're entitled to something just because of who they are.
    Is this still revelant?

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What Girls & Guys Said

1644
  • Hidden_P
    For the love of god, this again?

    Why do we have to label everything? Date whoever you want whether they are nice, preppy, smart, tall, midget, dick splashes or cum bubbles. It really doesn't matter as long as you are happy. Why label it?

    And if it's a break up, I've never heard anyone say "it's cause you are too nice". It's an excuse butt hurt men come up with.

    Do excuse me, I have to go answer one of the million of rate me, homophobic, racist and religious questions.
    • Hidden_P

      Or a fat/skinny bashing rant, I mean "my take"

    • evenlift

      Because morality matters. There's no escaping morality. Even if you say, "I'm not going to concern myself with moral principles", that is ironically a moral principle.

    • Hidden_P

      Morality is about right and wrong. How is labelling yourself a nice guy a morality issue?

    • Show All
  • BreatheMe19
    To be honest, I see more men complaining about 'nice guys' than women. I can't remember the last time my friends an I actually had a conversation about a nice guy.

    And I wish people who stop blaming women for what Elliot Rodger did. To even try to rationalize what he did is pathetic. He was mentally deranged, he needed to be in a psych ward, it's as simple as that. Women aren't at fault for not wanting to have sex with him.
    • Hidden_P

      Yes yes yes

    • Bysshe

      "I see more men complaining about 'nice guys' than women."

      Really? 'nice guys' complain about girls, and presumably other guys are glad that there's a substantial number of 'nice guys' who are rubbish with women. I don't see why guys would complain about 'nice guys'.

    • Complaining as in talking about them and bitching how women don't like them.
      @Bysshe

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  • TheOrangeBean
    I would say nice guys are actually the worst kind of guy. They're bitter, whiny, secretly hate on women and seem to feel entitled to attractive women just because they act "nice".

    Elliot Rodger on your picture there is an excellent example of a self proclaimed "nice guy" who in reality was a creepy psycho. I guess the reason he got more attention after he started killing is because before he was just a creepy weirdo = no one likes that. There are however some weird, broken women out there who has fetishes for the worst kind of people and those are the women that noticed him after the killings. It's not like the normal beautiful blonde girls, who he say rejected him, started liking him after what he did.

    Nice guys are not nice at all. They're fake. At least most of them. They are the ones that spread hate against women online, blame everything on feminism etc. Just because they are upset that being "nice" isn't enough to attract the women they want. And by the way - they are not even nice, they are insecure and lack confidence. There's a huge difference.

    Also most often these "nice guys" aren't very physically attractive and when they also lack in the personality department they'll naturally have a hard time attracting women. There has to be something about a person that is attractive to attract other people whether that's physical beauty, personality or both. You can't expect that you'll get a lot of attractive women just because you act nice when you're at best average looking and are also really insecure and bitter. Sometimes even creepy.

    "Nice guys" are also the kind of guy who'll give you nasty comments if you reject them. Especially on dating sites. They'll send you a sweet first message and when you don't respond (or do but just to tell them sorry you're not interested) they'll start sending you mean and bitter messages calling you bad stuff and telling you what you're missing out on, that he didn't even want you anyway etc. Just shows how fake and "not nice" they are. Do you think this kind of behaviour is attractive?
    • evenlift

      It's not that being nice isn't enough. It's that being nice is actually a turn-off, as I explained.

      Niceness requires insecurity and a lack of confidence. Pride is wrong, says conventional morality. Was Jesus proud? No, he was humble. He also never got laid.

      I think the major rationalization, also implied by your response, can be translated as follows: "Nice guys aren't really nice. [Note: this is technically true. As I said, 100% niceness requires immediate suicide.] So, I'm going to go for really un-nice guys, while claiming I still want nice guys." But, obviously, if niceness really were a value, you would, as I say, go for nice guys, if you didn't stay celibate, which would be even more morally fitting.

    • i'm charming, friendly, funny, and nice. women love me, it's not so black, and white. when it comes to dating, it's a bad idea to polarize these things so far. people will jump from 1 ship, be super nice, to the other ship where you think every chick likes it mean. some chicks like it mean.

    • The_Empty

      Ah, I see, so, outward kindness is far worse than just being an outwardly abusive or violent asshole, because, with an outwardly nice person, years of rejection, insults, and being treated like dirt makes them bitter and resentful on the inside? Don't worry, it's all good, in fact, I'll admit, if I were more than a simple human, just to make you feel better, I would destroy and kill an entire city full of innocent people, how does that sound? Lucky I'm merely human and nothing else.

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  • Prettygurl12
    Nice guys are like boobs to men.

    Women complain about their breasts way more than men do. Men complain about "nice guys" way more than women do.

    Seriously just stop.
    • The women in real life I remember complaining about nice guys were thought of as "bitches", because they complained about nice guys while having a very nasty attitude themselves.

      Admittedly, I think we've all read too many bitter feminist blogs about nice guys and then mistakenly applied that to think that all women think the same.

    • Bysshe

      Do men complain about "nice guys"? Sure "nice guys" complain about women, but other guys are presumably glad that there are "nice guys".

    • evenlift

      Women complain on here about nice guys all the time.

  • Hannah591
    There's this nice guy who's confident, extremely funny but I think naturally hopeless with women. He has so much respect for women and I find him hilarious which attracts me to him, we have real chemistry personality wise but I don't find him physically attractive so I just can't see myself with someone I have no attraction to.
    • alibaba42

      women are sexually attracted to alpha males. They are interested in nice guys as long term partners only after they have tried to have the thrill of dating that unusual sexy radical guy who knows how to take charge.

      Its OK, we guys try to sleep with as many women a possible before we settle down. its all coherent, I don't see what the big fuss is about.

    • Gommers

      @alibaba42 "We men" speak for yourself, I don't give a fuck about sex until a committed relationship is involved. You know how many women I've turned down or gotten bored of because getting her was too fucking easy? Come on man, don't act like you're top dog when your really a rabbit.

    • alibaba42

      @Gommers well its getting harder and harder to find nice girls. so im just saying that we may as well take advantage of the fact that girls sleep around. if not with you then someone else

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  • lericah
    I think ultimately no one is altruistic. You want to know why I'm generally as nice as I can be? Because I want a better world and I want to be part of that better world. Besides that it's simply instinct, as humans our greatest survival instinct is our ability to work in large social groups and for that reason it is something that we often promote on a group and personal basis.

    That said we are all also selfish on some level that's also one of the most core instincts. Selfishness is important I agree that it's something women whether consciously or not are seeking but they also want selflessness whether consciously or not. Extremity is rarely a correct view.

    In my own experience I think the biggest result of mild selfishness is being assertive and thats honestly how you get noticed. It's not realistic to think that only the completely selfish get noticed and the selfless do not. I honestly think women are smarter then this simplification gives it and what your experiencing is the result of you being more assertive then others, committed to certain goals above those of the average person, and good old probability.
    • evenlift

      Do not confuse altruism with benevolence. The fact that an act may benefit other people does not necessarily make it altruistic. If I act in my self-interest, I am being selfish. If I act to sacrifice myself to others, I am being altruistic. I benefit people by having a job, but it is not a sacrifice. It is a selfish act that happens to benefit other people. My employer benefits me by giving me a job, but he is not doing it as a sacrifice. It is a selfish act that happens to benefit me.

      I myself said that 100% consistent altruism would require suicide, a point that few people reach. However, most people are very altruistic. Not a day goes by when almost everyone doesn't do acts because some other people allegedly need or demand them.

  • RebelOfNowhere
    Mmmhh... I think a selfish man is very unattractive. Of course I want someone who is able to pursue their own goals, but if they lack altruism I want nothing to do with them. A balance is necessary, but I have never been attracted to people who weren't more altruistic than selfish, probably because this is the way I am, and I need a partner similar to me. The term "nice guy" has been transformed into a negative thing, applying to men who think that they will get what they want just because they act nice. Being genuinely nice to yourself and to others is very attractive.
    • evenlift

      Bear in mind that there is a difference between benevolence and altruism.

      Selfishness requires benevolence, and vice versa. Benefiting other people or putting in effort can be benevolent and selfish, or it can be altruistic and selfless. It depends on the context. For example, contrary to what is often said, a good relationship is not sacrifice. It is a relationship to mutual benefit.

  • OpenClose
    You might be interested in this article from the UK: blogs.telegraph.co.uk/.../

    Apparently girls weren't accepting men as "real men" unless they were willing to kill someone with a knife, and they would brag about their boyfriends' prison sentences.

    The only point I have to make regarding "nice guys" is that there are plenty of girls who like men who are nice, and it's usually another factor keeping things from working. No self-respecting man should try to make himself more of a badass to attract women. Reject these girls. Don't tolerate that bullshit. I've explicitly rejected girls for saying a man is supposed to be an "alpha male."

    I have little tolerance for those who would overlook a man's evil qualities because "at least he's a badass". And I despise any mentality that says a man should conform to this, or justifies it by saying "A woman is just looking for a good provider and protector". Oh really? Then I suppose women's purpose should be to stay at home and make babies, because men are attracted to "fertile women." Same basic principle.

    I am going to continue to be my geeky, goofy self whenever possible, and I have managed to attract enough girls who like geeky, goofy guys, that I don't need to waste my time with girls who think I'm less of a man for being less of a stoic hard-ass.

    I would much rather be a Bill Gates than a Kanye West. The nerd has changed the world as we know it into a better place, and healing Africa. The "badass" is basically a baby daddy to a bunch of random chicks, seems to think the world would be better if men were thuggish, and will be forgotten by the time the decade is up.

    Men, be your best selves. If that is a iron-pumping body builder, pump iron. If that makes you a quirky scientist, change the world. If a woman thinks you are less than a man, you are allowed to tell her to fuck off while you keep being your best damned self.
  • GingerBear
    There is a huge difference between a nice guy, and a good guy. 'Nice guys' are not nice. They pretend to be nice, in order to get laid. When they focus on trying to woo a female, but fail for whatever reason, they turn incredibly bitter, and start accusing the woman of being a whore, slut, bitch, etc. They can't handle rejection, and feel entitled to whichever woman they want, regardless of her feelings, because they view themselves as 'nice'.
    A good guy respects the woman he is interested in, and if she doesn't want to pursue the relationship, he lets it go, without flying off the handle and verbally or emotionally abusing her.
    This can also be reversed, because girls do the same thing.
    • Gommers

      You ever think that repeated failure creates bitterness? You ever think that being born a woman does anything but bed arrogance?

    • GingerBear

      @Gommers If you're consistently failing at something, common sense should tell you that you're doing something wrong. Stop whining and fix it. It's called self-improvement, and it's a positive action.
      Being born a woman makes one arrogant? That's such a nonsensical statement, I don't even know where to start.

    • skykidx1

      Lies all lies

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  • Alecu
    Women nowadays are really selfish. I act nice because I like it and makes me feel good but they think I am some kind of doormat or stuff like that. They only want for themselves and you can't even explain to her that you like to be like this and this is the satisfaction that you get from a relationship.

    But they only want it for their freaking selves. Annoys the crap out of me. Also if I am nice to you but I don't have a boner then it means I am just being nice, I am not nice because I want to have sex with you.

    And if you think that I will get upset if you refuse then do it and see what happens, I will go for another girl.

    In general I am a really carefree guy so I don't mind doing errands for her from time to time. Plus I get easily bored so I am willing to try new things. Heck even cooking together with her seems like fun.

    But when I see her taking me for granted I will teach her a lesson enough that she understands it and remembers it. I start easily and gradually increase my punishment until she gets the point.
    • evenlift

      If only they were selfish! They are in fact self-destructive, as are almost all men, though it manifests differently.

  • ginnyweasley
    the problem is that self proclaimed nice guys are not nice because they are constantly reminding people they are nice, when really if a "nice guy" was truly nice, then he would not say it, he would show it everyday and expect nothing as payback for his kindness.
  • BigJake
    "... it is ironic that feminists rage against the 'nice guys' whom they have helped to create."

    Isn't it, though? I've always marveled at this very thing, that these feminists, these perpetual victims in hemp dresses who have advocated an end to patriarchy and traditional masculinity would exhibit such overt anger at men who embody the very traits they claim to desire in men. On the contrary, caring, altruistic men only seem to anger feminists even more than traditional guys. At least they respect traditional guys. They may hate them and revile their very existence, but they do respect them.

    I read a really good article about this phenomenon once, and it essentially postulated that feminists react so angrily to 'nice guys' because of the fundamental conflict at the core of their philosophy. Deep down, feminists still desire powerful, aggressive, masculine men--the very men who are the apotheosis of that faceless Grendel they call patriarchy. So while their quest to slay patriarchy calls for them to endorse the rise of a new kind of man--the nice, caring guy--their pussies still crave masculine men, the ones who represent everything they loathe.

    Now maybe this is true, maybe it's not, but it sounds reasonable to me, especially given the curiously powerful vitriol they spew at nice guys. Either way, it's a hell of a conundrum, I'll tell you that.
    • Its just that feminists hate all men. When "traditional" men are more prevalent, they rail more against them. With the rise more more nice, caring guys, well they are still men, so they must be evil, and they spend more time railing against them.

  • Balcazaurus
    1) Proto-nice guy has no luck with girls due to self magnified personal set backs based either or simultaneously on personality (not that confident/assertive) or looks (they're okay or below).

    2) Proto-nice guy grows bitter and wants someone or something to blame (as is Human nature) and adopts the "nice-guy" title.

    3) Sees how well the "jerk" is doing and grows even more bitter. He then complains which gets on women's nerves as an instant turn off because men are "supposed to be strong".

    4) " Nice guy" becomes the new jerk when he doesn't get what he believes he has earned be it love or passion. The bitterness then rises and their social skills/confidence/attitude, etcetera, devlove to that of a Morlock.

    This is usually how things go down: some dudes are just being too pissy which then becomes bitchy and all around petty. Mostly because they overthink things and believe they're entitled to something.

    Sometimes things work and sometimes things don't. The "secret" is not to take the hard times personally and allow it to devolve you into some kind of Troll.
  • Fortres
    Guys need to stop complaining about women "whining"
    • evenlift

      I treat women as humans capable of being rational, just like men. So, why shouldn't I call them out?

  • DarkHumorRUs
    Another thing is that being traditionally nice, as in chivalrous, is something that girls do THEMSELVES now. Have you noticed that if you hold a door open for a female friend, they'll probably try to get the next one for you? They want to be equally gentleman-like, which is weird, but I guess that's "equality" for them.
    • I hold the next door because it's polite. It has nothing to do with trying to strike a balance anywhere. I get doors held for me, and hold doors open for both men and women. I'd feel weird if I got to a door before a friend and didn't hold it open for them. And I know a lot of people like Tha t

    • @RebelOfNowhere because that's how it is now.

  • aficionado
    Superb take! I'm sick and tired of women constantly 'assuming' that just because a guy is 'nice', he is automatically boring, passive and a pushover.
  • 6blueshoes
    No one wants to date someone who is mean, abusive, and cold-hearted towards others. But being nice DOESN'T automatically separate you from every other guy. Saying your a nice guy is the bare minimum for politness and every kind of relationship (and friendship) towards fellow man. It's like a restaraunt saying the food won't make you sick, a given for any establishment.

    Being nice doesn't make up for being passive, lacking confidence, not being attractive, or not having luck with women. Work on what you have to offer (skills, interests, hobbies) and you'll find someone.
    • evenlift

      It's not a minimum at all. Many men who are not polite get laid. I've addressed this point.

      Being nice entails being passive. Conventional morality demands sacrifice. I've addressed this point too.

  • Fugue
    "objectivism" is really just some childish, simpleton bullcrap that intends to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and even then under strict cherrypicking.

    Ayn Rand was the first to collect welfare when objectivism literally gave her cancer. And the whole excuse of "I do what I can with what I have" is just double-talk that brazenly betrays its own principles of rejecting even the products of altruism. It's like if I massacre an objectivist's family and get away with it, I'm sure they will just worship me as a selfish superman. They won't rage for altruistic action, at all.

    Objectivism is really just a vessel for sheltered, bourgeois suburbanites to justify their privilege and even subjugation ofr the less fortunate. Fortunate being the key word. Fortune, not merit. Fortune.
    • evenlift

      Find me proof that Ayn Rand collected welfare. Then, find me proof that Ayn Rand said that it is wrong to collect welfare. I'll help you by informing you that you should not waste your time: you will find no proof of either claim.

      The rest of what you say makes no sense. You're a case in point of the rage of people who feel that their fundamental altruistic world-view is being threatened.

    • Fugue

      Your idea of "proof" is nothing I am interested in catering to. It's common knowledge, to anyone familiar with Rand's biography. If you dispute that, you live in your own reality, and that's all that can be said.

    • evenlift

      In other words, you have no proof.

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  • Dipsy
    Women dont need to stop wining about 'nice guys'.

    Let's face the truth. Men are usually more attracted to looks than women.
    Men usually don't like fat women, women usually don't like nice guys. How can you overcome this problem? By working on it.
    Fat = working out.
    Nice Guy = get confidence, because nice guys lack confidence, otherwise they wouldn't be bad in dating stuff. Women want a bit of adventure, they dont want the boring nice guy, they want the confident good guy (gentleman). The confident good guy has confidence but he is also fun (yes fun, unlike nice guys, in a sense that women love to be around him). He is adventurous and has a great outlook on life and is motivated. He basically shows unconsciously (without saying) : Look at how awesome I am, girls must certainly like me (cant be otherwise).
    • evenlift

      But, that goes against niceness, if by niceness you mean conventional morality That is, as I say, the root of the 'nice guy' problem.

    • Dipsy

      Everyone should be nice to each other, but you shouldn't give women extra treatment if you know what I mean, girls don't like that.

    • DeltsBrah

      Wrong Girls care about looks

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  • Realitybites
    There is a difference between guys who are nice and guys who are needy and insecure. Being nice is a good trait to have but being nice because your insecure is fake af. For example: you like a girl and because your sl nice you call her 10 times a day and cling to her when you see her and compliment her all the time. To you it might seem nice but to her it's extremely annoying and she avoids you. Now you're confused and you'd call her a slut. End of story. You have to be aware of the signs that you're being a creep. Limit yourself. Dont call a girl you like a lot and oh... I forgot.. dont be desperate. Dont. Dont complain about your life to her. Dont try to be a bad guy because it won't work and because you're not bad. What is bad? Im pretty sure no one would want to date a bad guy. There are bad guys like cheaters and rapists and there are guys who are thought of as "bad" because they're confident and they have a sense lf humor which makes them talk dirty and act dirty but that doesn't make anyone bad. Girls like guys on motorcycles or guys in rockbands because of their status and that confidence. They're nice but they're assertive too and they dont show they're desperate.
  • SwoopingHawk
    Somebody's been hitting the Ayn Rand pretty hard. Not that that's all bad, her ideas about respecting individual rights without going all libertarian have some merit.

    Anyhow, I would tend to believe that one can be both genuinely altruistic and kind as well as self interested. Caring about other people doesn't mean checking your hopes and dreams at the door. Sometimes though, folks do have to reign in their own desires for other people. That's life.
    • evenlift

      If you're alive at all, you're somewhat selfish, as I've pointed out. I've never denied that one can be somewhat selfish and somewhat altruistic. But, the question is, why should one be? I advocate 100% selfishness. If altruism is so amazing, it should be applied consistently.

    • First of all, I won't be shoehorned into your nomenclature, so "altruism" is going out the door. A fulfilled life includes right relationship with God and man, a good go at living morally, and happiness, which comes from the first two points. You and I are of equal importance, that means we ought to look out for one another as well as ourselves, which is perfectly possible. We can love more than one person at a time, so why not include ourselves in that? Ronald Reagan once said that "We can't help everyone, but everyone can help someone", and he was right. Life has its suffering, everyone knows that, but each and every individual has the power within them to make sure that other people have a chance at living a happy, moral life too. Life is meant to be lived, by me, by you, by the man down the street. "Altruism" needn't be applied consistently because it is a means, not an end. The goal is that every individual be able to live a life full of love and friendship and devotion, everyone.

  • Tdieseler
    Let me sum this up for you...
    Women are never satisfied. They only want what they for AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME. the women who wish for nice guys have probably had a history or are currently dating someone they consider a "douche". IF they eventually get the "nice guy" they get bored and start craving the douche. The real problem is not the guy, its trying to satisfy an ever shifting demand.
  • DiegoO
    The definition of nice guys has been confused whit um in Spanish we call them aduladores. I dont know for sure why there isn't a distinction whit those terms, however I feel that what attracts women are guys that are genuinly nice not the ones that fake it and feel that you ow them something.
  • The_Empty
    I despise both Ayn Rand and objectivism, as another user said, it's nothing but the rich trying to justify being utter bastards to those they deem to be below them. It's a disgusting philosophy, the philosophy of selfishness, and it's what's wrong with the world. When you honestly only care about helping yourself and doing what you want, you can never help people, because, helping anyone else can only ever be an unforeseen side effe of helping yourself, because you are all that matters. I'll admit, it does understand human nature, as humans are utterly selfish, capricious creatures, but, rather than trying to fix the ultimate flaw that makes humans murderous, war mongering assholes, it embraces it. I wonder, if I just killed your entire family in front of you because I felt like it, would I be the ultimate objectivist superhero? You state that altruism is not benevolence, when, in fact, people can only truly be benevolent in the name of altruism.
    • evenlift

      You contradict yourself. You say I can't help other people. But, you also say that, if I help other people, it is only in order to help myself.

      In other words, you admit that being selfish would entail helping others.

      Tell me. How is murder in one's self-interest? How is caprice in one's self-interest?

      You clearly haven't read Ayn Rand. You've just read her critics, who probably haven't read her either. If you had read her, you would know that doing what you feel like is utterly in contradiction to true selfishness. Why? Because your emotions don't determine reality. Reality is objective.

    • The_Empty

      I never said that, I said you would never help others for selfless reasons, you wouldn't help people for the sake of helping people, you would help them for personal gain and personal gain alone, thereby essentially using them, and that's what I despise about "objectivism". With this philosophy, being good and kind is only in the interest of a reward, when helping people should be the reward in itself. And, you're right, your emotions do not determine reality, which makes your determination of the value of altruism and other humans false, because it can only ever be subjective, determined by your emotions. Reality itself is objective, what we determine about it is not, however.

    • The_Empty

      And, how are they in one's self interest? Simple, if someone stands in the way of your goal, and you can murder them free of repercussions, would murder not be your best option?

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  • Scrambledagain
    You can say what you want, do whatever but women are evolutionary not attracted to nice guys. It's simple.
    • evenlift

      They certainly are not attracted to nice guys. But, it isn't because of a lack of free will, which perhaps could be my next myTake topic.

    • Dude, you can write a book twice the size of the bible about your theories on why girls don't like nice guys ( in that way), bottom line though, yeah, nice guys don't get girls or even worse, find that one girl they not attracted to but settle with because theyrightfully believe that they can't choose their lover. nice guys don't have that sexual chemistry... whatever that is.

    • I despise being a nice guy and changing this is fucking difficult.

  • brain5000
    Nice guys aren't altruistic. They're expecting a reward for their nice deeds. An altruistic person wouldn't expect any reward. There is no need to dispose of altruism for selfishness.

    A Nice Guy just needs to be assertive enough to make his intentions clear. You won't get what you want if you don't ask for it. There's nothing inherently selfish about this. Going for something you want through a process of appeal and bargaining isn't selfish; going for it without regard for others feelings is.
    • evenlift

      Well, as I've said, 100% altruism would necessitate suicide. 100% altruism in the domain of romance would necessitate romantic 'suicide'.

      No, sacrificing others to oneself is not selfish. It's self-destructive.

    • brain5000

      No, 100% altruism, whatever that means, would not necessitate suicide. Ask your mother about that one.

    • evenlift

      I've already explained: even basic survival requires selfishness. So, yes, 100% altruism would equal suicide.

      What you mean to say, I think, is that having children is altruistic. It can be, yes, and, if it is, that is wrong. Having children should be selfish: you should have children for the rational pleasure of raising them, which includes fulfilling their needs. That doesn't mean that parenting should never be stressful. Your job, for example, can be stressful sometimes, but that doesn't make it a sacrifice. Perhaps, you long for an alternative universe where values do not have to be earned.

  • the_rake
    Ayn Rand dating philosophy... interesting. But you make a few fallacies, eg assuming altruism cannot be in a man's self-interest, and that nothing short of suicide can be genuine niceness. However I agree because yes, nature has indeed made it necessary for us to assert ourselves.
    • the_rake

      ps I always thought Max Stirner got the concept of egoism nailed down much better.

    • evenlift

      Do not confuse altruism with benevolence. Benevolence is compatible with, and indeed can exist only through, selfishness.

      A good relationship of any kind, even or especially a romantic/sexual relationship, is selfish. Imagine being told by one's partner, "I'm with you, not because you make me happy. In fact, you don't. I am with you as an act of charity, because you need me". That would not be a healthy relationship.

    • evenlift

      Remember that the meaning of 'altruism' is 'otherism'. It is not simply being pleasant in order to serve one's self-interest, which is benevolence. It is, rather, the neglect of the self on fundamental principle, in other words selflessness. The neglect of the self, pursued with 100% consistency, would result in death.

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  • the_unknown_panda
    when do women whine about nice guys? It's always guys.
    • evenlift

      They do on GAG all the time. And feminists websites do also.

    • I've never seen any on GAG, and i've never been on a feminist website.

  • lost_kitten
    I don't hate nice guys i just don't like it when they start acting like jerks when they don't get what they want.
    • and that's the problem us nice guys can get past cause your holding yourself above us basically saying that you're better then we are and all it's doing is make both of us come up empty does that do any good for anybody that's what I wanna know

  • BackInGame
    nice guy = just unattractive, ugly male who thinks that being nice will save him. The only cure to this is to miraculously increase looks attractiveness or heavily date down.

    And don't buy the confidence theory. If it worked, everybody would be doing it.
  • Zeroize
    I don't whine about nice guys -- I ask them out. They're keepers, those ones. Once more women realize this, the better.
  • RandomUsername3464
    Oh well. I'm a hybrid of a nice guy and a rude guy, it works for me. The old me, the guy who was polite and soft-spoken and helped people in public is gone forever, never to return. I did not be nice to have sex, I did it because I was raised to be selfless and altruistic, as the take states.

    I do find it funny how people who have seen me recently sometimes complain and say, "You used to be such a nice guy!", and that honestly makes me smile on the inside. There are loads of genuine nice guys out there who get mistreated, and when that happens, you need to adapt and start doing more things for yourself.

    Funny enough, I can never find a balanced approach on the "nice guy" subject from a feminist point of view. It is ALL vitriolic, cliche memes and buzzwords. Anger manifested onto a webpage. The solution is to not be a nice guy.
    • I should also add, that the girls who complain about "nice guys" are just as bad as the "nice guys" themselves. I see it on this site and elsewhere; the girls literally develop their entire persona around hating "nice guys", to the point where they will bump old threads, and attack random guys out of context for being "nice guys". It's like these girls have an enormous chip on their little shoulders they can never get off, it is SOOOOO pathetic!!

  • Mysterio421
    That woman's eyes look like Anakin Skywalker's eyes in Episode 3 when he turned to the dark side lol.
  • PiuBelloAmante
    I think women are just way too judgmental, and make bull shit assumptions about every man who treats them with kindness

    people dont appreciate kindness anymore because they think that there is some ulterior motive to an act of kindness.

    Since women believe men can't do anything out of the kindness of their hearts they can't handle when someone is just 'nice' because thats the way they were raised.
    i am a kind man, nice guy, but i am nice to mostly everyone. guys, girls, elderly, ugly, i am kind to my fellow human beings. just because i hold the door open and offer to help with your shopping doesn't mean i want a blow job or something...
    i just think its the right thing to do.
  • R3d_Anonymous
    Excellent take. What I've been wanting to say for a long time.
  • GreatnessPersonified
    You should do a take on self assertion. No one's talked about that yet.
    • evenlift

      Maybe I will. Thanks for the suggestion.

  • OrdinaryGentleman
    I love these posts that stir the pot. Well done and well written.
  • CancerianMan81
    what the hell i'm trying to explain to you @XRabbitHeartX
    • that's because that's all I see and i'm not accusing you of anything I'm just stating what I'm seeing in women what I have been dealing with okay there's a difference and it's not to discredit women that's not my aim i'm just pointing out the problems so that we don't have this from keep going on

    • but all the fuck you want to do is act childish and block me from talking to you you know that's real fucking cute

    • I think you need to grow up and start acting your damn age @XRabbitHeartX

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  • pavlove
    someone's been brushing up on his Ayn Rand
    • evenlift

      I am an Objectivist, yes. I am far past the brushing-up stage.

    • pavlove

      what are your thoughts on Bioshock? lol

    • evenlift

      As far as I know, it's a video-game that implies that Objectivism widely practised would lead to social destruction. The makers of that game probably need actually to read and to understand Ayn Rand, who makes it very clear how important human relationships are. But, there you go. We are back, if only implicitly, to that common and deadly fallacy: either you sacrifice yourself to others, or you sacrifice others to yourself. Rape, or be raped. Murder, or be murdered. And then they wonder why the Elliot Rodgers of the world appear. The altruists degrade human relationships by claiming that they could never be of benefit to oneself.

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  • Rufus335
    further proof women dont know what they want
  • Nightinggale
    Brilliant myTake. 10/10
  • Keepcalm89
    *went to grab the popcorn*
  • Anonymous
    Its totally retarded how a nice guy could be totally handsome, and have a lot of talents and hobbies but women would still reject him just for being nice AND has to listen to her complain about nice guys for hours and are expected to just take it.
  • Anonymous
    what is done all Feminism put 'Nice Guy' due to all unintelligent mens.
  • Anonymous
    Women just need to stop whining...
  • Anonymous
    Women love a bastard.
  • Anonymous
    I THINK THIS IS TRUE. I MYSELF BEING A NICE GUY IS FACING THE SITUATION WHERE WOMEN LISTED ME AS FRIENDS BUT THE GUYS WHO BEHAVE BAD THEY ARE GETTING WOMEN.
    • This I can agree my friend I been nice to some of my female friends the others are more likely them who treat them like lower class sadly..

    • Anonymous

      @Chan_Aku_Deadman so i thinl we should stop being mice.

  • Anonymous
    "Another claim is that 'nice guys' believe that 'niceness' should be enough to earn a woman's affections. Even if they did believe that, the question would still arise, why is 'niceness' such a turn-off that cheaters, rapists, murderers et al have less trouble winning women's affections than 'nice guys' do?"

    Because the nice guys you are talking about here have nothing but niceness going for them - they inherently don't turn many women on. It's not that we prefer terrible people.

    By the way, hot and nice are not mutually exclusive concepts - there are plenty of attractive *and* kind guys out there. I still don't get why so many guys seem so stuck on "hot vs. nice."
    • evenlift

      So, you are saying that, yes, nice guys are worse than rapists and murderers.

    • Anonymous

      No I am saying that nice guys who are *just* nice are generally not attractive. Women don't go after bad people but may find them more physically attractive (not knowing they are bad).

    • evenlift

      That's already been rebutted by me.

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  • Anonymous
    Women just need to be honest about LOOKS MATTERING MORE than confidence personality. Just a fact. I don't care how great your confidence and personality is, LOOKS trump that. These nice guys get upset because they are fed this lie about confidence and personality over and over again by so called dating "experts" "gurus" etc.
    • I'm gonna say your statement is bullshit. I've been told I'm cute/hot but many women but never had a relationship form from that and if the girl did want one, it was someone who I didn't like back. I mean looks do matter but no girl is gonna stay with you based on looks alone. Not saying they should either.

    • Anonymous

      Your statement is bullshit. So what a woman said you were cute, Its possible that the woman was just trying to let you off easy. And LOOKS do matter because when you 1st approach someone or vice versa, LOOKS is all you have. You can't get into the door without looks so therefore LOOKS TRUMP. How are you going to get a gf/wife if you can't even get a date?

  • Anonymous
    I do not understand how you came to like any of those conclusions?
    Feminism made guys nice?
    Seriously? When did feminism ever make any guy nice, all it ever seems to make guys on here is angry. Rightly so in many instances, but still... definitely not nice.

    And that the majority of women would date "cheaters, rapists, murderers". WTF?
    What majority of women would ever in their right mind date a rapist/murderer?
    I mean you are talking about sane women, and not crazy ones who write to inmates right? How do you think that is the norm?

    I mean i get what your saying overall, but seriously? Those two assertions alone make your argument very hard to believe.

    I mean i agree with what you said about altruism, but really i'd say it's a difficult world out there. That's the reality of it, and being "nice" in the self sacrificing way you have described isn't a good quality it instead makes you weak.
    Weak because you spend your cash (which in this economy should be something your careful/considerate with) on people who don't need it, to be nice. You give your time and energy, again something that you should care more about, to people who again don't actually need it, all to be nice.
    It's one thing to help someone in real immediate danger, or to help those in real need through charity. That's something to be admired. But to assist out of niceness, to give more than you have or even more than you need to on people who are completely capable and fortunate enough to do it themselves is just a person who seeks approval and validation from others. It's not endearing and it's not attractive. And at no time in history has it ever been either of those two things.

    The difference can possibly be put this way, people like good guys not "nice" guys.
    • evenlift

      I never said a majority of women would date rapists or murderers. But, vicious men like them do get far more female interest than nice guys do.

      Conventional morality is altruism. It demands sacrifice. It is not a case of being 'too nice'. It is niceness as such, the conventional morality, that is the problem.

      If you understand why altruism is a problem, then you should understand why feminism, which is a form of altruism, is a problem.

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