The reasons why some men may not like it when women make the first move

[Anonymous]

Yes! But, really, no.

There is a new[not really] talking point on the block!
Perhaps not a big one, but it is one I personally feel particularly involved in, since my opinion on this topic makes me a part of the opposing minority.
I decided to write this take because, as part of that minority, I find myself a recipient of some loaded assumptions about my person by people who ask the question why anyone would hold an opposing view but don't seem to want to hear an answer because they have made up their mind in a way that doesn't threaten their ego anyway.

And the topic is:
Should women approach men/take the initiative in dating?

Now, I'm not here to discuss this particular question, people "should" do whatever the hell they want- that is the only right answer to most questions in life, anyway.

What I'm here to do, is to simply give my reasoning on why I hold the stance I do an how this topic pertains to me in particular.
I'm not claiming to be speaking for anyone else, I don't even even claim to represent anything but the small minority who may share my view.
I'm merely going to try to expand on a view that some people seem to have some interest in being expanded on.

Now, I think the best course of actions is to unpin the metaphorical incendiary grenade right away, to outline what the talking point is going to be about:

I don't really want the woman to take the initiative in romance, and I can't really imagine a scenario in which this wouldn't be interpreted by me as a major turn-off.
(also, I would like to give out a warning that insensitive things are going to be said, because I just don't know hot to express myself genuinely and in depth without being insensitive)

1. It's just, not attractive.

The first point is as simple as that, a woman making the first move would put me off simply on the grounds of it not coming across as attractive to me.
The #1, the most critical aspect of female attractiveness, to me, the one that comes before anything else, both the body and the mind, is:
Exclusivity.
I will never be attracted to a woman who fails to convince me that she is the special woman to have by my side.
I want to know why she is someone I should care about romantically over the billions of other women on the planet, and the reasons should be compelling.

Once the woman has established that, once she has demonstrated her superior qualities and made me enamored with them, then she can express the belief that she sees those superior qualities in me also.
And, that, is what makes the connection feel special for me.
Being deemed special, exclusive, valuable by someone who I deem special, exclusive and valuable.

The problem with being approached by a woman, is that it completely fails to establish this critical factor of initial attractiveness.
The only thing that a woman making the first move establishes , is that she has lower standards than the other women who didn't approach me.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sorry, that's just what I genuinely feel.
I want to be vetoed by a woman, I want to be subjected to female mate choice, it's real and it is perfectly natural phenomenon in evolutionary psychology.

Women are supposed to be picky, they are the ones who gets pregnant for periods of 9 months at a time, they are the ones whose role is to ultimately determine the mate to best further the human species.

I want to know that a woman has a lot of potential mates at her disposal, and I want to know that I came out victorious in the end, by being deemed the most adequate of the bunch.
That's what ultimately makes me, as a man, feel special and appreciated, it's what strokes my ego and turns me on.

I'm not insecure about a woman who has many choices, why should I be?
Do you really want to be in a relationship with someone fearing that they may leave you whenever a better option presents itself?
Sorry, but that's just sad.
I want those options to present themselves, so that I can listen to my partner turning them down by saying how inadequate they are in comparison to me.

A woman who initiates romance with me has failed to establish that she is an exclusive mate.
An exclusive female mate wouldn't feel like she needs to change the status quo because she has plenty of adequate candidates to choose from.
If you initiate romance with me, all you are telling me is that you have lower standards than I do, and that's just not what I consider attractive in a woman.

I understand that in order to change the status quo, radical steps have to be taken by people whose values and behavior may not reflect that of the majority.
But at the same time, I'm a believer of the notion that the status quo always exists for legitimate reasons, and that forcing a change never happens to be the right way to transform it.

2. It doesn't feel genuine.

The one persistent argument of those who promote the female initiative in romance is that it benefits the psychological well-being of those women who practice it.
Whether it's meant to build confidence, dedication or one's character, it's interpreted as empowering women in the areas that they may feel suppressed in by societal norms and expectations.

And that's a great thing.
I don't exactly label myself a "feminist", but I am liberal and progressive, and I of course support anyone in their strive to become a better and more emotionally healthy person.
The problem is, romance isn't exactly a "social" or "political" issue, it's a deeply personal issue for many people, myself included.

I'm sorry, but I just don't care about being a subject in your character building exercise.

I'm almost 30 years old, and what I'm looking for is a serious, committed relationship that is, hopefully, going to last me a lifetime, or at least long enough that I won't feel the need to pursue any similar experience for the rest of my life, and I have a very clear idea of what kind of a woman I can potentially have that experience with.

If you express interest in me and I reply "sorry, I don't find that attractive" and your reply is going to be either one of the following, instead of visible disappointment:
#1 Lol, that's ok, you are shit person anyway, because WHO wouldn't like to be asked out.
#2 wHy ArE yOu dEnYinG mY rIgHT tO aSk a MAn oUT.

Then sorry, but I'm just going to roll my eyes right out of my skull.
If you can just turn around on your foot and insult me right after you have professed your romantic interest in me, then you are just demonstrating to me how little that gesture meant to you, how little you know about me, how little you actually care about my feelings towards yo and how this whole thing was all about you and nothing about me.

I don't care about your insecurities, about your rights as a woman to do the things the way you want them to do, and I definitely don't care about you "building up the confidence for the future scenarios".

A person expressing their interest in me is a personal matter for me, it involves me and puts my own emotions on the line, it's no longer just about them.
And those emotions aren't their training wheels or a podium for them to make social/political statements on, so if I as much as suspect that a person isn't treating them with the respect they deserve, that they are taking advantage of them to somehow cuddle their own ego, I'm going to treat them with that little of a respect in return.

If a woman IS going to express interest in me, then I want to see her sweat, I want to see her dread over the possibility that it is not going to work out for her, I want to feel like my response actually matters to her- the same way I WOULD feel when expressing interest in a woman.

The problem is, the vast majority of women who I have seen to be in favor of taking the initiative, especially the most vocal ones, don't come across as this at all.
They come across as women on a power trip who strive to silence and invalidate the opposition in what is a very obvious projection of their own insecurities and control issues.
They don't come across as women who are in for finding a genuine connection, they come across as people who are out there for self-validation and their incendiary reactions to friction are nothing more than a testament to that.

Most women who take the initiative don't talk about the many times they successfully took initiative and it let to fulfilling connections in their life, they mainly talk about all the "shitty, chauvinistic men" that "aren't good partners for anyone" who stifle their right to self-expression and determinism by rejecting women who take initiative for which, in their fragile point of view, tHeRE iS No VaLId jUsTIfiCAtION other than male chauvinism and oppression of the female gender as a whole.

And therein lies the issue with the status quo and the irregularity of the strong values and behaviors of those that challenge it.

3. It's not a compliment.

Extrapolating from my previous explanations, this one should be self-explanatory.
When a woman initiates romance with me, I do not feel complimented.
I feel complimented when a woman, who has previously established that it takes a lot to earn her affection and respect, succumbs to my advances and thus validates my own qualities as adequate and superior.

Call me a traditional romantic retard who "plays games", but that's how I genuinely feel.
I don't care for pragmatism in relationships, I don't care for relationships that people lead out of convenience, I don't care for merely "putting up" with someone to fulfill my social and physical needs.

I know many people have relationships like that, and it's great that it works for them.
But it doesn't work for me, I can't emphasize with it, I find it unfulfilling and ultimately completely inconsequential and not something I want to be a part of my life at any point.

What I want is romance, the kind that turns brilliant, intelligent people into an irrational, incoherent and stressed mess.
I want strong emotions, I want people to be terrified of ruining their chances with me over everything they do or say, because my affection for them means that much to them.

I don't want to have sex "2~3 times a week" because "I have needs, and you happen to be around" I want to have sex with a woman who thinks 6 months into a relationship is too soon, but deep down wishes to have sex on a gondola in the middle of Venice with a man that has the ability to make her feel the desire to commit such a reckless abandon but has so far failed to appear in her life.

That's the kind of gravity I want a potential partnership with me to be described as by the person who aspires to be my partner.
And it just happens that women who take the initiative fail to convince me that this is actually the case.

As I've already mentioned- they make themselves less exclusive and thus desirable (as perceived by me, subjectively) than those women who don't initiate.
Not only that, their action implies that they also deem me a less exclusive man, which, of course, doesn't feel like a compliment at all.

Being though of as a stepping stone in someone's journey to bettering themselves emotionally/as a person means nothing to me too.
By all means, feel free to do that with men who are in the business of having their time wasted, and then maybe come back when you are the best person you can be, and are finally ready to see the act of asking me out as the high-stakes business I require a potential partner to see it as.

And then, finally, if you are seriously going to include "benefiting guys and society" in your justification of why you take the initiative, just, don't.
Romance isn't social service, not my romance.

I'm not afraid of #metoo because no decent man is.
A man who possesses a reasonable head on his shoulders with a semblance of common sense who is genuinely confident in his approach and appropriate treatment of women will NEVER, EVER fear being accused of inappropriate conduct.
That's just bull that incels, mgtow and the rest of bitter male trash perpetually regurgitate as an argument, it's not what real decent men think.

I'm not afraid to express interest in a woman the moment I acknowledge it.

I'm not confused about whether any woman is interested in me or not, because I'm not a vegetable without social awareness.

And I don't feel pressured to be the one to take the initiative action, I like to sweep women off their feet and I love it when they reciprocate.

In other words, I don't know how else to put it in a more sensitive manner- if a woman is going to perform social services for insecure and socially awkward men, she is not the woman for me.
If inferior men are up her alley, then my qualities and character are obviously going to be wasted on her.

Of course, a woman doesn't have to be demeaning towards other men, but if she fails to convince me that she deems me special and objectively superior to them, then I'm afraid there is no deal.

Also, "most men" don't like "the chase" because most men are promiscuous and subconsciously know they can't compete in terms of intrinsic qualities or financial stability so they rely on putting their dick in as many women as they can to maximize their reproductive potential.

Of course they are going to be put off by any form of hurdles put in front of them.
But since you, women, know very well that "most men" are hell of a lot closer to Harvey Weinstein than James Dean, I think it is safe to conclude that basing views on what "most men" want is probably not the best course of action.

My point is, men who are after an easy lay will always be the group of men who will like the women who make them work for their affection the least.

With that being said.
Don't waste my time, don't trivialize what my affection means.
Just my few cents.

[GraveDoll]

Literally the best piece and most honest dude to do a take on this subject because this is true.

I have repeatedly say this and so many guys on here claim xyz. But I live in the real world and apparently so do you.

awesome job.

[btbc92]

This is a really good myTake and I respect it wholeheartly as a woman. I believe sadly a lot of men are missing out about this situation. And women who do do it don't get it.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

I can honestly say this is one of the more original and thought provoking takes I've read in a while. I'm still processing how much of it I agree with and where my own views diverge. But you put in words so competently what other commentators have failed to accurately express. So for that I give you credit. I think my main point of contention is that "whom approaches whom" gets made out as this big event. But in actuality, the ONLY purpose of an approach is to BEGIN AN INTERACTION. That's literally it. Some may interpret that approach as a show of romantic interest, or attach meanings and expectations to it. But the approach itself is just moving your body towards another human, and making some combination of sounds with your mouth.

And at what point does an approach become a show of romantic intent? Lets say I approach a sales assistant in hopes of getting advice on what shoes to buy. As we interact, I find myself charmed by her bubbly personality, and she seems to be giving me more flirtatious vibes than her job would ever require. In the end we exchange numbers and make plans to meet for drinks after her shift ends. Now, at what point did the interaction pivot from professional to romantic? You could argue the approach itself was the lynchpin for romance, as its what triggered the interaction in the first place. But you could equally say the approach has nothing to do with the end result of that interaction. Most likely, there would've been a mutually felt "hook point" at which both of us get a feeling of "there might be something more going on here".

My long-winded point being, not all approaches are created equal. You expect an approach to be already front-loaded with romantic interest on the part of the approacher. But its also quite possible that a girl could see you, think "he looks kinda cute, maybe I'll strike up a chat and see where it leads." Then throughout the interaction, she'll start piecing together the sort of person you are, and she can then decide whether or not there's some romantic basis on which to engage in a more intimate setting.

[CubsterShura]

As much as I can understand that, and you actually mentioned your points very well, it's something that I personally cannot relate to.

I just find it as simple as 'if you seriously like that person and wanna talk to them and maybe ask them out, go for it'. I feel like adding anything more than that is just overthinking that life is too short for.

Of course, it would turn some guys off and I might get rejected, but who doesn't face rejection? Guys get it all the time for things like height and appearance! I've been rejected once too.

I do feel like I have to do one extra thing though. And that is to 'explain' what exactly I want to the guy instead of just asking him out and leaving it there. Guys aren't used to this and some even get confused and misunderstand something. My last rejection was due to a misunderstanding on his part, and one day when I explained to him he was like 'if you told me all that EARLIER I would have definitely said yes because I totally misunderstood you back then' but it was too late. He really misjudged my intention, and I believe many guys do it too.

I can understand the thrill of being chosen by someone who has many options and was not easy to get, but who really cares as long as the person is your type? People can be literally desired by nobody and still be an amazing match for you.

[myTake Owner]

What did he assume you meant?

Men I have asked about being approached most often say their first impression would be that the woman is actually just joking, or that what she means is something sexual, because it just seems so brazen to them.

Indeed, because it doesn't happen so often, men only really have their assumptions (and their wishful thinking) to base their opinions on, and those may not necessarily be accurate or even positive.

[CubsterShura]

Yeah his assumptions were way off from what I actually wanted.

[5000pts]

So I see your responding to people. Answer me this. I feel you, I understand your perspective and to some extent agree. I recently felt that I wasn’t getting approached by men and I asked my guy friend why I might be getting a smaller pool of guys to talk to than many of my other girl friends. His response was “you are very pretty. Many people will be afraid of rejection.” This is not the first time that someone has told me this, not at all. I have been told this a lot throughout the years by many different kinds of people. I also have heard my fair share of men admitting that they were afraid to talk to me for fear of rejection. Of course random men approach me but they are just that-random. The men I see everyday, engage with, talk to, and grow fond of compliment me EVERY day, but I rarely get asked out. I recently decided that a guy I was interested in had liked a few of my pictures so I would like his. He didn’t react immediately, but a few days later he messaged me. We talked for a few weeks and really began to bond. And, he finally admitted that just “liking” his picture had given him the courage to talk to me but he needed to know if I was interested in him. I’m like “yeah, duh. Lol” and he proceeded to give me the same familiar speech that I have heard before- “I wouldn’t have ever talked to a girl like you. It took a lot of courage to talk to you.” I get called intimidating just as much as good looking, but it could also have to do with my facial expressions and how I might come across as standoffish when I’m actually shy. What can a woman like myself do to avoid “approaching” men but still give them the impression that I am interested, but that I am still a catch that he must earn?

[myTake Owner]

Simply liking someone's pictures on a social site isn't really the kind of initiation I had on mind, something like that wouldn't put me off.
Even if we interpret a gesture like that the most enthusiastically we can, it's still just a person putting the ball in another person's court, at best.

Compliments, or letting the person know that you find them in some way special- those things are fine to me and even appreciated by me.
You can even go as far as nonchalantly proclaim "I like you, you are cute!", without asking them out straight up.
There are many verbal and non-verbal ways to let a person know that you appreciate them.

You are not being arrogant, not coming across as feeling entitled to his attention, taking it lightly or trying to prove something to others or yourself and patronizing the other party in the process.
By not just "going after what you want", as they say, you demonstrate that you actually care about the interest of the other party in you, that you perhaps don't want to scare them off by coming on too strong.

[devilish-cutie]

wow, so many wrong things here
approaching doesn't mean she has no options, dang she picked you so feel special
shouldn't she feel not special to you if you approached her? that makes no sense
just cause woman approached you doesn't mean she would to anyone, it really depends on the person; if you are a player or looking for something serious. Just cause she approached you doesn't mean she wants to marry you, she may just want to get to know you and determine are you for her as it may seem since she saw something in you. So you have to always prove ysf "worthy".

And you know, I as a woman that approach guys can say:
"I dont care about your insecurities that you have to feel validated by a woman to feel manly of doing "manly" thigns and take all the credit you conquer her or something. That mentality is horrid. Relationships take mutual work. Always. All the fucking time. Approaching isn't as big of a deal as its presented. Do you care who of your friends approached you cause they thought you are interesting? Like there wouldn't be friendship if you also didn't want to be their friend and take the time to meet the person. And just cause someone thought you are interesting and could be friend with you doesn't mean that by getting to know you they can't change their mind.
Its all this stupid traditional men-made crap to make men feel like they are powerful. No, you didn't "won" me, we both choose each other.

[myTake Owner]

You would fall under my point 2.
You are automatically interpreting what I said in a way that fits your own anti-male narrative, and I can't help but feel that your initiation of things is a lot more about you preserving your ego, by refusing to take part in what you perceive as this negative, traditional male-enforced climate than it really is about wanting to approach men with genuine romantic intent.

You would twist *me* wanting to be chosen *by you* into something that you still feel threatens your own agency and diminishes your role in what is, essentially, all about your power of choice, how or why- I have no idea.

To me, it feels like a woman who accepts my interest actually exercises MORE selective power than a woman who would present her interest in me instead, that's why it appeals to me.

I don't do it to feel manly, or validated in my "masculine pursuit", and I definitely don't interpret it as "winning a woman over" in any way that would take away or trivialize her own role in the selection process.

When *YOU* approach *ME*, you are effectively putting the ball in my court- then your selective choice hinges on *MY* approval of it.
Wouldn't you agree that this is, logically, granting you far less agency over the ultimate outcome of your interest in me than having the freedom to accept my interest when you have already been assured of it?

[devilish-cutie]

Everything you wrote why you dont like women approaching men first could be iterpreted as why a woman would prefer a men not to appraoch first. For the record, I have no issue man approaching me first. I do have an issue with a man having an issue with me appraoching first. Men that mind it are usually ones that need to feel validated and prefer gender games.
I think its more about character than gender so its ridiculus to me to expect men to act one way and women another. Its not about women empowering themselves (you see it that way cause you think women approaching is not a woman thing to do). I approach cause Im more initiative type of person and Im not patient and i hate to waste my time. I am compltely secure in my power and dont mind powerful men either. And I can handle rejection.
Men that have an issue with woman approaching would rather play a game than to allow the person to be who they are. Playing games is totally immature to me. Sure you may be vary of woman approaching and think she may be easy but thats not a fact, women that are not easy can approach and you shouldn't judge someone soley on being appraoched. Same with men that may prefer to approach first cause they are that type of person which is fine but its not fine if they cannot approach woman approaching them. I mean if you really like someone I dont give a fuck who approaches first as long as its getting done and interest is mutual.
But further into "approachig" topic... like lets be honest, most people (guys or girls) dont appraoch cuase most people are cowards and bravery is rare. Unless if we talk about catcalling and men asking for sex when no real feelings are involved. When real feelings are involved most people are cowards and it usually goes like this: a woman gives a man million hints she likes him and when he is like 100% sure she is into him he approaches.

[devilish-cutie]

to answer your last qustion - no, not necessarily, I have approached guys that I have rejected down the line of getting to know them cause I didn't like what they showed me. A guy that approached me may also realize im not actually a girl for him and withdraw.
You talk like approaching means someone is telling you they choose you no matter what. As I said approaching isn't proposal, its just a step to be able to get to know someone who seems to have what you are looking for.
And people appraoch when other side gives them some hints/indication they are into them so its not like the one approaching is offered on the plate. If I approach a guy and he acts like im crazy about him thats so immature, i usually wouldn't appraoch if i didn't thought he might be into me too which he showed. Sure a person may make a mistake but they at least showed interest in you at a friendship level.

[myTake Owner]

"Everything you wrote why you dont like women approaching men first could be iterpreted as why a woman would prefer a men not to appraoch first. "

Of course it could.
But I would never have an issue with it if a woman said she doesn't want to be approached, I wouldn't make loaded assumptions about her person because of it.
It wouldn't faze me, because it doesn't concern me in the slightest, we simply have incompatible beliefs and desires when it comes to romance.

Some female users on here claim that they don't want to be approached because they either feel like that way they will never get the man they actually want, or even because they feel like men who approach them "stalk them like prey".
And that's fine, but then they turn around and make loaded assumptions about men who don't want to be approached for their own reasons- kind of like how you do.

And this take was written in response to exactly that kind of women, the ones who refuse to see a man's justification and instead chalk it off to him being a bad person who wants to plays games.
I don't respect those women because they are hypocrites.

[myTake Owner]

"(you see it that way cause you think women approaching is not a woman thing to do)"

No, I don't.
What I mentioned in the point 2 were quotes borrowed from takes and replies of real female users on this site who claim to approach, who have used the argument that it is empowering and character building to approach as their justification.

And I don't think women approaching isn't a "woman thing to do", I said what I think about women initiating- which you have ignored and continued with your assumptions and with attributing traits to me that I don't have.

I like to approach simply because it makes me feel more desired than being approached would, a stance I gave plenty of justification for in this take.
My reasoning why I feel this way is not a matter of discussion, I simply feel this way.

You can say that women who approach don't always have low standards, but I simply perceive them that way.
Kind of like how you perceive men who don't want to be approached as chauvinists who want to play gender games.

Why are you entitled to make assumptions but I'm not?
Because you are a hypocrite, like every woman who I targeted this take at, that's why.

[myTake Owner]

If you are too impatient to wait or don't want to waste your time, that's cool.

That's great if that works for you, but it doesn't work for me.
I simply want a woman who is patient and takes her time, because I want to feel like our romance wasn't initiated on a whim.

And I was never talking about "approaching", I don't know why you keep talking about approaching.
I would never reciprocate someone "approaching" me in any circumstance simply because I don't think that is how you establish any sort of a meaningful connection.

When I say "initiate" what I mean is expressing interest in a friend or an acquaintance with the deliberate intent of taking things to the next level, either a date or a relationship.

Approaching is not for me, I only date people I know, I don't waste time with strangers.

[devilish-cutie]

You know its very simple. You think its fine for men to approach* and you think its not fine for women to approach. That right there is sexsist. Cause why is it fine for men and not fine for women? Simple as that. So you are actually being a hypocrite here.
It goes vice versa with women that dont want men to approach them AT ALL, which by the way I never heard of, only that they dont want SOME men to approach them like eg. creeps. (prefering is one thing and if there are women that dont want men to approach them at all - thats rare!)

"I simply want a woman who is patient and takes her time, because I want to feel like our romance wasn't initiated on a whim." If you are friends and she makes the first move how is that on a whim? But if you right away initiate thats not a whim? I didn't mean im in a hurry, just that I can see he will say he is into me after I paint him a picture and he gets it which will take eternity. If I see he is into me and he doesn't get it im into him why would I drag it along with hints? Thats immature to me cause I have the courage to initate things.
Is this all theory or have women (you like!) approached you and that turned you off? Like tell me you like a girl and she initiates things and you would reject her? That's idiotic.

*my definition of approach is what initiate is to you. Meaning making a move of obvious romantic interest eg. asking out on a date.

[devilish-cutie]

Your whole issue lies in your point #1. I can tell you if I approach a guy he is damn special. And I think as women dont approach as often when they do it usually means the guy is special.
And it makes no sense that you base woman being special on one thing but you being special on something else. You haven't provided information on which she would think you are special. How would your prove to her you are special?
And why do you initiate things with her in the first place? You must think she has the potential to be special. So why wouldn't a woman initiate things with a guy who she thinks could be special? Maybe she can see right away you are special. You seem to find her special right away why else initiate.
I understand how that all makes you fell, your whole point 1 but that so wrong. Look its your right if you want that, go for it.
But know that game you like doesn't mean that the woman that doesn't play it is not special and you can miss some gems cause of your beliefs.
And also know there are women that know there are plenty of men that like that game you like and they will make you run for her and beg for her, practically manipulate you. That doesn't necessarily makes them special.
Love is not about testing someone, its about being genuine, having faith and trust into someone.
And I do think this is all an issue that comes from a male ego, wanting to feel like he concequer a mountain.

[mrdimples78]

I think a lot of men could be perceived as being that way but I think this gentleman it's going to straighten his point several times over and done it very well.. I think he illustrated it especially well explain how he feels you have put the ball in his court so to speak. He believes as I believe that women have the power-as women-to make the ultimate final decision as to who they want to be with and when they make the initial approach other man they relinquish that power and it causes an imbalance.. what it comes down to is yours and his difference of opinion as to our roles in this is something I have posted on here on gag about is societal expectations on the genders you share more of a 21st century view where is he and I have more traditional views. And no disrespect to you but I believe that it is a thought pattern like yours that causes so much confusion among genders these days as to what is expected and accepted of us.. that said I liked with and agreed with what you were saying about love isn't about testing someone it's about being genuine and having faith and trust in someone I do agree with that.. I guess to answer this question I would have to ask you and him what is your idea of an alpha male? Was sort of qualities does an alpha male possess (in your opinion) because you were saying not having the patience sometimes in a man being able to pick up your hints that you want him to come talk to you I feel like that is one of the things-the qualities that an alpha male would possess... and I feel like you would be very quick to complain that men are not "real men"anymore and as far as the male ego driving us to want to feel like we have "conquered a mountain".. I can see that being said of a man that just wants to get a woman into bed 4 " bragging rights"but this gentleman has gone to great lengths to explain why this is not ego-driven..

[mrdimples78]

You said you think it's ridiculous to expect men to act one way and women another.. so allow me to ask you this, do you wear makeup? And if so why? And also (and somehow I feel like I know the answer to this one)... do you avoid burping and farting in front of guys? When you sit, do you sit with your legs crossed? Do you carry a purse? Because these are all things that traditionally women do.. and if you do any one of them that means you embrace traditional roles at least to a degree...

[mrdimples78]

I'm not saying I disagree with you on everything oh, I'm just saying that I understand the man's point and agree with the majority of it... Now one thing I probably do not agree with is his view of dating, as far as I believe he said something about not dating someone he doesn't know.. I do feel like you have to get to know a person when one way or another.. but also I believe that his stance is coming from that of an alpha male that is, a man confident and who he is is intelligence and abilities people that disagree with him are going to be males who are bettas, and women such as yourself, and consequently I believe part of the reason you have the beliefs that you do is that you are not used to being surrounded by alpha males if you where you wouldn't feel the need to be impatient at times and approach men. Feel like the set of the rules you live by has been constructed by and for second class or "beta" men.. I believe that you do not believe men and women should live by certain sets of expectations because we would (and do) ultimately fail to meet them.. Thank you

[devilish-cutie]

I wrote a whole reply and accidentwlly deleted it. Awesome.. As simple as possible... I dont believe in alpha/beta but individual people that have the traits you want in your partner.
Im not having anything against traditional things for those it works for but men and women are not as how we are tought they are by traditional views and so we have wrong expectations from each other. Its more about ones personality. I have learned quickly men are not strong and brave as i was tought. I was more brave than most men, bravery is generally rare trait. Total personality thing. And i dont intend to manipulate him into thinking he is brave to stroke his ego. Its fine if he isn't, i can be brave for both, as long as he has traits i look for in a guy. If alpha man exsist than he must be brave but than he's rare. And whats alpha woman to you? I dont care if he is brave or not cause i have that trait and dont need it in him. The whole issue is that we underestimate other himan traits like kindness, being caring etc. Id definitely want thwt in my man, not something thats a woman thing. We both should be caring and kind, thats like basic.

[devilish-cutie]

Anyways im telling you that the issue you guys have is thst in order for something to have value for you it should be hard. And im telling you that is not necessarily true. And you dont make it about the woman but about ysf, that you feel like you put all this effort into the woman that must be worth that effort so you feel like you achieved somwthing. Its not a natural thing for woman to choose. We both choose, otherwise nothing. And if you want hard work, relationships when you are in one take tons of work. Normal thing is that you like someone and see them as their potential partner and they migt see you also as their potential partner so you try to get to know each other better wnd see does thst person really has traits you want in a partner for a long lasting relationship. I feel like you speak traditional theory and have little to none experience when it comes to love. When you experience it you will see. Or you will stick to a fairytale and end up with a woman that manipulated you into thinking she is special cause you had to work hard for her. If i see a guy that i like n see potential with him i dont want to miss chances in life and take it for granted. Id do my best to not have regrets, who knows if ill ever meet a guy like him ever again.

[mrdimples78]

I'm picking up what you're laying down... it's really been one hell of an interesting question and I'm a post something on it shortly

[myTake Owner]

Now wait, wait.
I'm NOT, traditional.

I don't believe in alphas/betas, I don't believe in paying for women on dates, I don't believe in house wives, and I don't believe in courting.

I believe in women putting the same amount of effort into romance, and I do believe in common sense and equality in dating.
I DO want women to take me out on a Valentine's day instead of being socially expected to do it for them.
I would like women to make silly, grandiose romantic proclamations to me.

My issue is with the attitude of "most" women who would do the approaching, it puts me off.
Because, at least for now, it takes a certain type of attitude in order to break the status quo.

These women either come across as either: someone who is looking for a casual low-stakes connection/sex, someone with a chip on their shoulder, someone who was burned in the past and has chosen to approach as some sort of a defense mechanism, or as someone who tries to act "alpha" to prove something to themselves, and feels entitled to male attention.

I DON'T want to be approached with an attitude like that because it doesn't make me feel *I* am actually being appreciated.
I DO want to be approached with a genuine attitude and the gravity that I would approach women with.
But I believe that women who have that kind of attitude are still too shy to break the status quo, and those who aren't, well their behavior and attitude simply doesn't appeal to me or make me feel valued.

[devilish-cutie]

Now you spoke most sense ever, with most id agree. Mutual effort. And this is fine:
'I DO want to be approached with a genuine attitude and the gravity that I would approach women with.'
So there is an option youd accept. Of course i fucks give about a guy that i know approaches anyone, or only sees me as a throphy etc. I was talking only about approaching when you have real feelings for someone.
You just think its more rare and all im telling you its possible. I approach cause its natural for me to go for what i want. But i rarely met a guy worth of that effort. Considering it rare i dont want to miss chances in life and try to do my best.

[myTake Owner]

And you are just one of those women who would completely fail to make me feel valued.
You approach because you want to topple some preconceived notions about men and dating that you have formed in your head.
What you do is not genuine.
You say men who don't want to be approached are ego motivated, but you approach for reasons that are clearly ego motivated.

You are twisting the female mate choice into something that is about men.
It's completely irrational, illogical and it is clear that it is rooted in your insecurities.

And that is my issue with women who approach like you, they have the same issues that I don't find appealing and they fail to come across as genuine.

[devilish-cutie]

And here we go again... Well you said it ysf you want to feel valued as i said
And you dont know nothing about me... Making such asumptions. It has nothing to do with my ego, i approach a guy cause i like him, end of story. And i have no issue him approqching me first.
Its illogical that you think its ok for men to approach but not women. As i said thats sexsist. And thats the only thing i have issue with.

[myTake Owner]

I know about you what you told me- that you think men who don't want to be approached are chauvinists who are motivated by their ego, after I have told you MANY times that this isn't the case- at least not for me, and you keep yapping about how I think it is "not ok for women to approach" after I have told you MANY times that this isn't the case.

You are showing me that you are a woman with an issue.
That's the only thing I have an issue with.
Unfortunately, all women who claim they approach have this same issue, that's why I have an issue with them.

Keep on making assumptions about men, I will keep making assumptions about you.

[MackToday]

I don't think this is anything new, women have always approached men that they wanted. It's just that in the past they didn't really say it outright, they just sort of hung around all the time and tried to insert themselves into the man's life. His response would affirm or not whether he was interested in them. I think in the past the whole idea was that the girl had plausible deniability if she didn't actually say it. I don't really want a girl to succumb to my advances I want there to be a natural flow there. Otherwise It might just be me twisting her arm so to speak and it will all fall apart later because it's just something I talked her into. I'll ask if I'm interested and if she says no than it's no I'm probably not her type or something. There's got to be some kind of natural flow. I'm not at all happy with a woman that I had to sell myself to like a used car when she didn't really want me. That's just a selfish fantasy , me thinking of myself and ignoring the wants of others it will come back on me in a bad way eventually.

[CaliforniaSun22]

you have some valid points . Taking the question - as a women that knows what she wants in a partner- there is nothing wrong with wanting to pursue someone that you see a future with. It doesn’t mean your less of a person or just want sex- you could be like minded people. But you made your mind up and have an idea of what you would like- that doesn’t mean that a women doesn’t feel the same way. There is a huge chance 50/50 chance of the initial being positive or negative that’s the chance everyone takes. Human interaction and connection can not fit into a specific box. Meaningful relationship- means first there has to be a initiation of contact , chemistry, friendship - comparability and it grows romantic ( etc) . I understand experiences shape the way we view things but not every circumstance or person is the same- or just need to “cast a larger net” - Just because a women initiates interest isn’t validation for themselves- it taking a chance just like a man would.

[myTake Owner]

As a woman who knows what she wants in a partner, don't you *also* want a partner who knows what he wants in a partner and pursues you because he sees a future with you?

Don't you feel like him failing to pursue you, for whatever reasons he might have, implies that he fancies you *less* than you fancy him?
Whatever reasons he has to pursue you, they clearly weren't as strong as yours, because you are making the first move, not him.

[CaliforniaSun22]

Yes and that doesn’t mean that the feeling can’t be mutual- I guess experiences shape everyone view point- the optimist in me doesn’t think that anything is impossible- just because you try peanut mean your failing or not enough. Just because someone doesn’t pursue doesn’t mean they like you - it can go deeper with personal life things going on- or the way they view themselves. But the case can be made for both people- there is more to a relationship than the initial - who makes a move - if you don’t someone would be shocked to even know that they were viewed a certain way other than a friend - and you don’t know that unless someone makes a move. But we all interpret things differently and view things different -

[myTake Owner]

"there is more to a relationship than the initial - who makes a move"

This is not about relationships, it is about attraction.
You can't have a relationship without attraction, and in my case, I just don't feel attraction unless a woman behaves a certain way and establishes that she has certain beliefs and standards.

I don't "choose" to not be attracted to a woman who makes the first move, I just don't feel attracted to her.
Because she doesn't do things and believes things that I find attractive in a woman.

The women I do find attractive will not approach, because they hate the idea of being the one who likes the other person more than the other person likes them back.
These women simply don't want a man who doesn't even like them enough to conjure up courage to express interest in them.
They want to be swept off their feet and made to feel special by a man who has more than enough interest in them to do something about it.

I understand that some people see romance pragmatically, as a 50/50 or what not, but I don't.
That's not my kind of romance, and the women who are ok with that romance can't provide me with the romance that fulfills me personally.

[myTake Owner]

I just find it upsetting and disappointing that certain women find it acceptable to say that "going after what you want is the only way to get someone who is truly right for you", but when I say I want the same thing- to go after someone I genuinely feel attracted to for my own reasons and claim that the person who would approach me isn't right for me, in my case this justification is somehow rendered invalid, chauvinistic and infringing on their rights.

[Avicenna]

Although this is a well-written Take, I have to disagree. It's not a problem if she takes the initiative, even if she isn't skilled about it. Why should women just wait around for someone who may never approach or have any idea she is interested?

[myTake Owner]

They shouldn't.
I'm not trying to discourage any woman who genuinely wishes to approach men from doing so, that wasn't the point of this take.
There are many good reasons why anyone, regardless of gender, would want to initiate things.

The point of this take is to portray that *I*, much like *them*, have reasons that I deem legitimate (no matter how stupid others may perceive them to be) for why I want to do the initiation myself.

This take is a reaction to a specific type of women who I have encountered, those who prefer to initiate and often use reasoning along the lines of:
"I prefer to initiate because that is the only way for me to be with the guy I want to be with, as opposed to having to rely on men approaching me, men who I won't be totally into."
And more loaded versions of that too (i. e. I only initiate because men would otherwise stalk me like prey).

And that's a perfectly valid reasoning for anyone who wishes to initiate.
The problem... I have with these types of women, is that when a man expresses that he doesn't want that and that he would rather initiate, they bark at him that he should have no valid reason to feel that way and that he is "stifling" their right to be happy.

And it just BOGGLES my mind how someone can be that hypocritical in that short period of a time.
These women don't realize that what they are essentially saying is that the reasoning they use is a matter of their personal happiness for them, but it is demeaning and chauvinistic when men use it.

"I as a woman get to choose the partner I want, because that's the only way for me to be truly happy, but if a man wants to choose the partner HE wants to be truly happy, and doesn't want me when I approach him, it means he is a shit person who isn't good for anyone!"

[Raider]

Interesting topic.

I like the idea that you are inviting someone with you; a walk, going to get ice cream, etc...

If I write it out this way.
1. A man invited a woman to go get ice cream with him.
2. A woman invited a man to go get ice cream with her.

An "invitation" and "date" are actually the same things because you are going somewhere with someone.
a man/woman asked a woman/man on a date to get ice cream.

Remember, how you used to invite people to your birthday party when you were a kid?
because of that, I think a woman can ask a man and a man can ask a woman.
That's just an example of a confident person.

[DizzyDesii]

This was a good take but all i can say is “and they call women complicated” 😂 good lord you make me wonder if its smart to continue approaching

[myTake Owner]

Lol, I don't doubt that we are all complicated.
It's just a matter of how well you understand yourself and the less obvious things that motivate you.

[art84]

I would have actually preferred if a women wanted to be friends first before moving into anything serious. Like if a girl asked me out for coffee or something it would definitely catch me off guard. I would be like why is she interested in me all of sudden? What 8s she trying to do? There's also it being genuine when she asks me out. Like I don't want to be the guy that got asked out only to boost her ego or give her confidence if she lacks it or be her social experience. There's also the leading a person on but that's another thing.

[ThisIsMyOpinion]

You must be the only guy I have ever met that thinks like this.
Fair enough is how you feel, is what you like, it's who you are.
From what I understood you also respect others who find it very sexy, genuine and a huge complement when a girl makes the first move on them.

By looking at the comments many guys here don't agree with you. Still everyone has the right to their preference.

[myTake Owner]

I respect the opinions of those who respect my opinion, even if I don't emphasize with it.
I don't respect those who try to invalidate my view or make baseless assumptions about me because my view differs from theirs, those people just further substantiate my beliefs about them.

[ThisIsMyOpinion]

When it comes about what we want individually in another person is hard to point fingers. I mean who am I to judge what another person wants in a partner?

[myTake Owner]

Of course, but relationships and romance are a very personal matter to most, if not all people.
Which is why people are so quick to take offense when someone does not appreciate them or what they do, in a romantic way.
It makes people feel like every opposing preference invalidates them, that it is somehow an attack against them in particular.

But, really, if someone is in it to find the right person, genuinely, as they claim, why get bothered over what people prefer or not prefer?
The way I see it, if someone doesn't like something about me romantically, they are doing both of us a favor by being upfront about it.
They are clearly not a person for me and I'm not a person for them, that's all there is to it.

[ThisIsMyOpinion]

I agree 100%!
I am married and my wife made the first move on me and we are happy.. Hearing that another person doesn't want to meet their partner that way will not change that. So why should I feel like it is an attack on me?

We all want different things. No reason to feel like everything is a personal offense. Like you say many listen to this and feel like you are invalidating what they want. And don't get me wrong some guys here do that. Insult anyone whit different views. I myself am to blame a little for that on some topics to be honest. But you didn't gave me that vibe on your take. You make clear that what you are saying is for you and for everyone that feels the same.

[AlongCameCindy]

Even though I don’t agree with all the points you made, I get your logic in most of it, certainly a interesting a different way of thinking... you seem very picky and specific in what you’re looking for (nothing wrong with that) but I’m curious do you feel you will find it? I’m very picky myself but In different ways and for different reasons but I feel I will most likely stay single which I’m alright with.

[myTake Owner]

Oh, I'm not actually looking for anything.
That's probably why I come across as picky.

I have already met the woman I liked, it didn't work out for me, so that's about that, pretty much.
I don't care anymore.

[bluehen46]

I personally like an aggressive woman. I have always been dense when it comes to the opposite sex so i would still be a virgin if women did not make the first move. Matter of fact most of the girls and women i have dated, hooked up with, and the one i married pursued me.

[Barry88]

I have often been pretty shy by myself, and felt insecure about making a first move. Now I'm older I care less about what might happen if a girl wouldn't like me (I'm in a long term relationship anyway), but I've had girls making the first move and I actually liked it. It took a lot of pressure from me and I don't see any issue with girls stating their interest in a guy. It shouldn't matter who makes the first move.

[888theGreat]

It would depend if I know her before she asked me. I would be flattered though. I had this happen to me when I was younger but I was told she did another guy that way, so I just wanted to be friends, but she did get married and has been married for a long time.

[Anonymous]

Not a single guy I know agrees with you. It is very rare for a guy to have mastered the pickup artist ways so they just take what they can get. Especially since girls are the gatekeepers of the relationship. Why bother trying to give the gatekeeper a reason to authorize you when they have already let you in?

I also know someone personally who was falsely accused of rape and I never saw him again despite being proven innocent. metoo is a monster no matter who you are.

[theRen]

This is a really... odd take. If you're already interested why does it matter who initiates? This just reads as I wanna be the one to do it and if I can't then I don't want a relationship, it's a little childish especially when you use terms like "inferior men".

[myTake Owner]

If I was "already interested" I would have "already initiated", obviously.
If you wait around to express interest in someone you like and they do it instead and you like it, good.

I don't wait around, I can't emphasize with people who wait around.
If I haven't initiated anything with someone, it's because there is nothing for me to initiate- the attraction isn't there, and them initiating with me isn't going to change that.
It's just going to show me that they are interested in me earlier than I would be, and that just isn't attractive to me, for various reasons I have outlined in here.

Obviously, if some women can't wait around either, because they want to express interest the same way I do- that's great.
But those women are not compatible with me, both parties cannot do the initiation at the same time.

And I wrote this take explaining why they are not compatible with me and why I prefer the women who are.
That's all.

This take isn't about what you, other men or women want, it's a "my take", about me.

[theRen]

yes.

[KaylaJoy]

Yes! This is what I think and feel but can never seem to articulate. Thank you for sharing your opinion in such a thoughtful and detailed way. I really agree with your view on this point.

[Manny311]

Honestly there’s nothing more sexier then a women making a first move every now and then means they know what they want what they like that’s why women in there 30 are more likely to have sex then any other age I think that’s an attractive thing and sexy. But what the heck do I know.

[Daylight7550]

I don't like it when females approach and ask me out either. I feel like a cuck and a fool and that the whole room is laughing at me. I could never say yes in a situation like that. I have a reputation to uphold in this city.