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When are women going to start taking more responsibility for dating? (Page 5)
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I don't know about other woman but I ask out first all the guys I'm interested in...
Good to hear :)
I agree with you but I still would never ask a guy out. I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman doing so at all but there are things that i'm simply not doing. I'm not asking a guy out, I'm not also not pressuring a guy for a commitment to me and i'm not asking for his time. It's just my personal preference, I like being more passive in those areas and I like when men are more aggressive in those ways lol
So essentially you are justifying being sexist, ok
How is that sexist? I prefer something over another and i'm just being honest about it. I enjoy doing other things for my boyfriend because i'm a girl as well, I don't think there's anything wrong with preferring something because it feels better to you because being the gender you are increases the feeling, as long as it's not hurting anyone, I don't see why it's an issue for some people honestly.
EVERYTHING is sexist And/or racist. Welcome to the new age
Lol, that's the truth, apparently personal preferences are very offensive.
Sometimes the strength with which a person holds to a personal preference is taken as a statement of the obvious universal applicability of your choice. Having made this decision for yourself (waiting passively for a man), and speaking in favor of it publicly, you are influencing others to make the same choice. That is not your intention, but it is the effect of your words. We are after all social animals here.
Given that this myTake is in argument that asks that women at least consider taking the active role in dating in the interest of seeking their own possible benefit, extolling the opposing view (if only for your self) is seen as undermining and sabotaging the effort. Better to say nothing at all if you can't express support for the argument presented.
"Sometimes the strength with which a person holds to a personal preference is taken as a statement of the obvious universal applicability of your choice. Having made this decision for yourself (waiting passively for a man),"
I never said I wait passively, i've never had a problem with a man that I liked, not asking me out. And I see so many women trying to force a man into commitment or feeling bad about themselves because their boyfriends/husbands won't spend time with them. I was saying I won't do those things, I won't passively wait for a man to ask me out, I won't wait for my boyfriend to commit to me and I won't request his time, in my mind if a man likes you he will do those things already, they don't need to be requested by me, I can just be alone.
"and speaking in favor of it publicly, you are influencing others to make the same choice."
The world is full of people with different views, opinions and preferences and if you're not strong enough to still stand by what you think because someone has a different view then you do, then you didn't believe strongly enough to begin with.
"Given that this myTake is in argument that asks that women at least consider taking the active role in dating in the interest of seeking their own possible benefit, extolling the opposing view (if only for your self) is seen as undermining and sabotaging the effort."
"I agree with you but I still would never ask a guy out. I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman doing so at all but there are things that i'm simply not doing"
Did you miss something? I agreed with him and I thought his take was written very well, I can see his point exactly and I encourage women to do whatever they want to do, I don't think gender roles should apply but if a man taking the initiative makes me feel good then that's my personal preference, it's not harming anyone and there's nothing wrong with that, respect goes both ways.
"Better to say nothing at all if you can't express support for the argument presented."
"I agree with you" "I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman doing so" I also wasn't aware that different opinions weren't allowed on mytakes, I guess I missed something.
I understand all that you have said.
I don't have a problem with any of it.
I am pointing out a logic hole in your statement.
You can't say you support proposition X and then say that for yourself you choose NOT proposition X.
The statement of support you give is dwarfed by the example of your own life. On net you are influencing other women to make the same choice as you even though your opinion says otherwise. That is why I said it would be better to keep quiet than speak. Otherwise I am left believing that you really do want other women to take the passive role but just don't want to be held to that position.
You may state any opinion you choose. I may criticize any opinion I encounter.
Of course I can support things while they are not my preference, I don't expect everyone to think how I do and I completely support someone elses right to have that choice. People do that all of the time with other topics so i'm failing to understand why this is any different. It's like saying because I think other women should have the right to an abortion, that I should have to have one myself first, when in fact I never would. Or that if i support others right to gay marriage that I have to be gay, it makes no sense to me.
Simply stating how you personally feel about an issue is not "influencing" someone, this is a public forum, where multiple opinions/answers are welcome, an opinion and a preference are not an "influence" to me. I'm not going onto sites where answers and opinions aren't welcome and trying to influence women into something.
We still are not connecting.
A statement about gay marriage is not germane. You are a lesbian or you are not.
A statement about abortion does not apply either. The issue there is who makes the choice not what choice is made.
The act of expressing a preference for being pursued actively withdraws your support for the alternative choice. Saying that whatever others do is fine for them is hollow boilerplate. Your real opinion is reflected by your choice.
I am an early adopter of Android platform phones. People occasionally ask me my feelings about Apple. I tell them I think Apple is a fine choice (which it is). I don't then undermine my statement by remarking that I would NEVER own an Apple product myself.
I feel like at this point, i'm just going to be repeating myself lol.
Those examples are relevant, they're examples of things I support but I don't have to experience in order to support.
You opinion is not expressed through your choice, your preference is. My opinion is that women can do anything they choose to do and they can ask anyone out that they choose to ask out and I support their right to do so. My preference is that I don't have to be one of those women. I'm really not understanding why I have to do something in order to support someone else doing so if I don't enjoy it, I would be lying to myself.
I also don't understand how I undermining my own statement simply because I choose something different.
It is not choosing something different that is a problem.
The problem is watering down your support with a personal story that by your example discourages women from taking the active role in dating.
This is the point in my Apple Android comparison.
Giving a statement of support for women's empowerment is good all by itself. Expressing a personal preference that differs from your message of support waters down your message.
Like it or not, we influence others by our words and by our actions.
Do you wish to actually encourage women to take traditionally male roles in dating? Then say that, and that alone.
Do you wish to discourage women from making these changes? If so, then say that.
Don't take both sides.
It is possible that you just wish to make all choices known. That is a nice thought, but since humans are biased against change, if you give someone a way out of change, they will take it.
Statements in support of both choices default to no change.
Yeah, we're both just repeating the same thing at this point, I understand what you're saying but I don't agree with you at all and repeating it back to me in different ways isn't going to change that. I think you're just throwing generalizations around as well as underestimating peoples abilities to make their own decisions.
You are in fact reinforcing sexist gender roles by saying that you'd "never ask a guy out". Preferring a man to do the asking and saying that he has to do the asking are two different things. It makes no difference if you support 'other' women asking out men. If every woman supported the idea but none of them did it, it would be no different than if they were closed off to the idea.
Please refer to the second picture from the myTake because although you are not as blunt about it, you are generally saying the same thing as her. @gray_sailor is right, your actions define your true position on the topic. I could say that I support gay marriage until the cows come home but if I'm a minister and I refuse to marry two men then how much of a difference does it make how much I say I support gay marriage?
I'm really not understanding how having a preference is forcing anyone into anything or influencing gender specific roles, there is nothing wrong with me liking men being assertive. I want people, no matter their gender to have the freedom to do whatever they choose to do and that includes me wanting to be asked out instead. I never said a man "had" to do the asking, he doesn't have to do anything, he could easily not ask me out and we could both go about our ways, that's not forcing anyone into anything.
Right now, there is a 14 year old girl that is reading this myTake. She is trying to decide for herself how she will approach dating.
Two possibile outcomes:
1)
a) You say you encourage girls to take the active role.
b) She then reads that you chose otherwise for yourself.
c) She leaves the thread deciding that she will follow your example and adhere to traditional gender roles.
2)
a) You say you encourage girls taking the active role.
b) You keep the story of your own preferences to yourself.
c) She leaves the thread deciding that she will follow your advice and take on traditionally male gender roles as it suits her.
This is simplistic, yes, but it does show how we influence each other in our actions and words.
The myTake owner and I would prefer that outcome 2 happen as much as possible.
It seems to me that you don't care which outcome occurs as long as everyone is quiet and attentive when you are disclosing information about your dating life.
I'm not addressing all of those things because for the 390420932th time, I do not agree with you and I am a perfect example of how you can support something but not practice it yourself because it's not your preference and there is nothing wrong with that.
You can talk about and reword it until your face is blue and i'm not changing my mind, I honestly read and reread both of your replies and took what you said into consideration but I still do not agree with it. You're treating people like they're sensitive, easy influenced sheep who are incapable of making their own decisions.
If a 14 year old girl was reading my answer (and she had half a brain), the worst that could happen to her was she felt it's ok to do and act how she pleases while at the same time being open minded about other peoples choices.
By the way both of those roles you listed are completely acceptable and perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with enjoying things based on your gender or someone elses.
'You're treating people like they're sensitive, easy influenced sheep who are incapable of making their own decisions.' Some people are, especially teenagers.
'there's nothing wrong with enjoying things based on your gender or someone elses.'
True, both genders have natural upsides and downsides and nothing will ever make them completely equal, but it could be argued there is something wrong with exploiting sexism just because it benefits you. People could argue that perpetuating outdated and undesirable gender roles is sexist.
First of all I think you're underestimating teenagers and people in general, if these people are so easily influenced as you say then they're most likely just going to follow whatever comes along anyway and they have deeper issues then then that, like not having a mind of their own.
And since when did I become responsible for influencing everyone around me just because I choose to express a personal preference that didn't exactly agree with yours enough for your liking.
I'm not exploiting gender roles, I don't understand how many times I have to repeat that I'm all for both genders doing anything that they want to do. There's just nothing wrong with me enjoying something that I prefer.
I am not holding you universally responsible for the fate of all young women. I just want to point out that your voice adds to the voices of others around you. Taken together at a large scale, this is the voice of societal expectations.
There is another user in this thread @rationallioness. that has said that it is fine for a woman to pursue a man, it's just that if she did that herself she would feel "desperate and pathetic". She stressed over and over again that these were just her personal feelings and they should not be seen as applying to someone else. The problem is that personal example is a powerful teacher
Combining your example and hers, we get:
"Asking a man out would make me feel desperate & pathetic though I agree with you but I still would never ask a guy out."
Hardly seems worth the effort to offer support that is sandwiched inside that much condemnation.
Ultimately, I'm saying that if you offer your own example, that will dominate, everything else is fluff.
Other women contributing to this thread gave only full throated support for erasing gender roles even when they did meet a man through traditional circumstances. I offer @musicbrain5. as a prominent example.
I don't need my example added to others to create something that you assume others who read this will think. That would involve you first of all reading into everyone's mind who is reading the thread and their take on it and that goes back to my initial point, you can't do that and you certainly can't do that just to prove your point even further because you're essentially putting words in my mouth, you're also underestimating others own ability to think and decipher opinions and you're becoming a mind reader as well.
I wouldn't feel desperate or pathetic asking a man out and I don't think any woman should, I said I agree that women should ask men out and I support it, you can't take my opinion and then take an opinion of someone who obviously has an issue with it.
"Other women contributing to this thread gave only full throated support for erasing gender roles even when they did meet a man through traditional circumstances. I offer @musicbrain5. as a prominent example."
And like I stated earlier, you two just seem upset that I just didn't praise your side enough for your expectations.
I'm just pointing out that the level of praise that you offered is inconsistent with you claim to have offered support.
Luke warm support is what you offered, golf clap, weak tea.
Given the bias against gender role change, support has to be enthusiastic to matter at all.
Your support is so little as to be no support at all.
Better to take up a position with @ rationallioness. Her views are repellent but at least she makes a firm stand.
I can respect that.
It was inconsistent and I don't care, it's my preference as to how much support vs preference I choose to write in my own paragraph but that doesn't change the fact that I can and will support both and do as I prefer, so like I said you're just bothered that I didn't praise your side well enough and that's just not my problem. It doesn't change how I feel and the fact that I can support both and still say what I prefer.
As far as you and rationallioness go, take that up with her, it doesn't concern me.
As long as simps continue putting in all of the effort, risking all of the rejection, having zero standards, paying for everything, and expecting the bare minimum... women will continue sitting on their asses.
It is inherent trait in women to not to be serious in one men. For them all men are the same. It is men who ought to be serious. The Right to rejection lies with women that's what society has been following
Yeah well I'd like to change what society has been following
I agree. Though if it's a crush, it's not because we expect him to do it (unless it's one of those prissy annoying bitches who think they are perfect and everyone loves them) we just don't ask them because we feel like it will fail and make him think you're weird. But girls should ask guys out, it's not the 1800's.
Women should either abolish gender roles completely, or do nothing with them. But taking more rights WITHOUT responsibilities is really annoying me.
I let women ask because it makes me feel more desired. When they jerk me around, then I just feel like a toy, and that's not fun.
I can back you up with my own mytake: www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a7834-the-actual-difference-between-sex-gender-in-detail
I agree with this MyTake. In this one area men have it unfair compared to women so I appreciate the work you did
Girls/women have to do so much anyways. Plus I would like to know he honestly wanted to be with me
What do they have to do?
Well considering all the let downs we go through we would like to know that too if anything us more.
I'm a shy girl and I like a shy guy. I initiate texts and he replies IMMEDIATELY and keeps the conversation going. However should I always initiate? I text after a couple of weeks.
Also both if us are shy and he seems to like me too.
What do I do?
Too shy to ask anyone out haha
It should be close to even ideally. Why not ask him out? Someone's got to do it.
So should I now wait for him to initiate texts? Like I said, i'm shy so I find it weird to always text first. Going by the other girls I know, I've already taken a huge step by initiating contact.
I prefer to let things play out naturally instead of deciding whose turn it is.
I like it when girls text me. Most play a game and wai days before texting back. I hate it.
@OmaiBakaDayo I agree that playing hard to get is silly and a waste of time. Like I said, the guy I like replies immediately so that whole wait and text thing isn't an issue. I don't wait for too long either unless I don't have my phone or am busy. It's just I keep initiating so even tho he replies well, I'm nervous I'll come across as desperate or something. and i'm shy. So its weird.
Why would some take responsibility? Too many men are desperate and will do anything to get a girlfriend. In order for women to take more responsibility men will have to demand them to do so. However this will never happen as you have too many men who became feminized and will do anything to not hold them responsible. Maybe in another life men and women would actually act like adults and have a bit more common sense but not in this one.
Yes many men are desperate but when you consider that most women dislike desperate men then the argument for more responsibility makes more sense.
Disagreeing still won't change reality.
I'm not disagreeing I'm proposing a piece of logic that you hadn't considered which makes it make more sense for women to take the initiative.
LOL women taking more initiative? Again I already explained why would they. Men have lower standards for women and women have higher standards. So why would they take more initiative when they get to be more picky and get away with it?
Because they don't always get to be more picky. A lot of women get lonely because nobody approaches them. As I have said there are some people who don't have to put in any work to get exactly what they want and good for them. But most women don't have it as peachy as you seem to think.
@dev765, you get it, the OP doesn't. I would say most women are single, not because they're not being approached, but because no one of quality or who meets her desires are approaching her.
@SexyTexas now we're just squabbling with the specifics, being approached only by undesired men isn't much different than not getting approached at all from a practical point of view and would have the same result. So you really didn't disprove my main point. You actually agreed with the point but disagreed with the details.
And who raised them to be feminine? The single mothers lol.
I don't ask guys out because the guys that like to GET asked out, aren't my type. They have personality traits that are annoying.
Very much similar to women that require a man to approach her and not the other way around. They tend to have unbearable, clingy and desperate personalities.
isn't that awfully convenient?
How do you know their personality traits if you never ask them out or gone out with them?
My guess is when hell freezes over.
It's a sad state of affairs when girls are in the 21st century with the 18th century mindset
They're only backwards when it goes with how they want things to be.
i m actually against women pursuing men. its just that when that happened to me, it completely took the challenge away and i never developed that much interest.
everyone is in the game whether like it or not.
Not everyone thinks it's a game, player
but i dont sleep around nor lead women on. no such thing as a reserved player.
perception is reality, this is the game and a sales teaching.
the game is a skill of self awareness. people who dont get it hate it and dismiss it as a stigma. its a form of power and it does corrupt and feelings to get hurt. add morals to the game, your just good guy good with the ladies.
Well if you weren't interested in them as a person, then they dodged a bullet...
Good answer! +1
"Well if you weren't interested in them as a person, then they dodged a bullet..."
Lol, very true.
Yet you looking at it from your perspective no one else may hold that exact same idea. Remeber we are all made differently your trash might be another mans treasure and what may work for you may not work for someone else. If you think love is still about chasing or being chased, I'm not trying to be high and mighty when i say this, It is still childish. Once you are in a relationship things will begin to die down and not stay the way you want them to. This is simply my perspective, which I find to be the most helpful when finding someone.
@Hlsurfing you're absolutely right its only from my perspective and it may work for other men. but, its a general rule everyone values things they worked for rather than something that fell on their lap. this can minimize taking her for granted which can lead to a power trip and emotional abuse. not always but i will bet there's a higher risk under these circumstances. i do get that women not asking guys out is in part an ego thing, in part most women just dont have the skills to facilitate/and or do the work to lead him on or just completely psyched out at the idea of rejection etc . in all modesty, i didn't really have a lot of issues getting dates since highschool. i was a shy introverted kid who opened up through trials and failures learning the psyche behind attraction. i broke out of my shell through getting some balls in my teens... if i perceived women as more scarce, ill probably be more ok with women asking out men. it really depends on ones abilities and how he's wired.
it takes different approaches to be memorable with different people. you dont go giving a hot girl compliments because she's used to it, you ignore her and keep your cool and make things seem more natural to prevent being just another guy to her while you can almost throw yourself at a girl who never gets any attention and shed fall in love. i can't really simplify something thats a bit more complicated. there's no one right way that works on all. people just have to be sensible. having said all this, if someone physically attractive enough pursues me, hell yah id give it a shot.
@HIsurfing
Thanks for shitting in the pool for the rest of us. If you don't like being approached just decline politely. Don't make it your hill to die on that the world conform to your expectations.
It just occurred to me last year, that every woman I have ever been with, including two wives all pursued me first. Being stuck in your way of thinking as a young man made my life poorer and more stressful as a result. Not all men are made to be the aggressor. Claiming that all men should be is beyond fucking arrogant. It is as insulting as hell.
There is no game.
1. i never shat in everyones pool.
2. i never said i dont like being approached, in fact, its flattery that can take things away.
3. my expectations? never implied that
4. "Being stuck in your way of thinking as a young man made my life poorer and more stressful as a result. Not all men are made to be the aggressor. " i appreciate this insight cause i think i m going through this but i can't seem to help myself out of it.
5. "Claiming that all men should be is beyond fucking arrogant. It is as insulting as hell." i didn't say all men, i gave references that its me and my experience and opinion to cover my ass from people like you.
6. dont make it personal, you can find tons of books supporting what i say.
you have this notion like i have it all figured out. i dont and it doesn't please me that more things turn me off and i do often think about the women I've rejected because of this...
i m just honest with sharing my opinions and experiences. @gray_sailor
be respectful and ill open my mind to your suggestions and insights. i m very well aware the curse/corruption side of power and abilities... but who can save themselves?
I can agree with approaching women and getting the best ones is easiest by not trying don't get me wrong i like to practice game but i also want "her" to know who I am as well.
i think its all that comes after establishing attraction and respect sometimes during too. @HIsurfing
Making the statement: "i m actually against women pursuing men." is a universal statement.
It expresses how others should act.
Men SHOULD be the aggressors.
Women SHOULD wait to be pursued.
You then soften your statement and say that it applies only to you.
That's nice. It also something that will not come across when reading your statement.
Your first sentence carries ALL the weight.
If you don't mean to tell others what to do, start by NOT telling others what to do.
negative. i said "i m" and where did i tell people what to do?
its true old people are stubborn. if you can't get away from your pre concieved notions, this convo and all potential respect is gone. you seem very hard headed.
maybe you're going through projection, hence, self hate thinking i m like you. i never failed 2 marriages nor will i follow in your footsteps.
read what i write and stop being an illiterate with presumptions like you know it all. I've showed some humility and respect and you're taking us into hostile territory.
just shut the fuck up you old bitter delusional fuck. i m not like you.
@gray_sailor
You can say you worked for it however what are you going to do when you stay in a long relationship, continuing to constantly work for everything? I'm not saying that you should expect everything from your partner, however in my experience you can only keep the persona of consistent chasing on for so long and once you maintain a relationship you'll realize you must open up or ultimately will be kicked to the curb.
What makes you think just bc a woman asked you out that you " got" her? It's just a date. A date is a glorified conversation. Asking someoen out is the easy part and anyone coukdv sy yes for sny resson... doesn't mean you worked for or " earned" anything. Challenge lies ahead no?
I remember reading those who put a lot of effort into asking someone out seem to think all the works been done by the time they gEt into an actual relationship... That there's is correlation between the more work they put into flirting and getting a date they less involved they are in the actual relationship. Hence disappointment when Gettting to realize whoever presumed you is actuslly not as charming caring open minded I tersted in you as theyd seemed. THey got you now everything is taken care of and they can relax. That fits with your idea That the " work" is in getting a daTe.
Challenging part is makimg the relatiomship work... Not gettimg so, eomen to say yes.
Women can join the military but they fear rejection from some guy.
Welcome to the world of endless female hypocrisy.
I don't think women are always hypocrites, but they are on this topic generally and that's what I want to help bring an end to. A lot of it is just a lack of awareness.
I didn't mean to say that women are always hypocrites. But let's face the fact that women today in general are very hypocritical when it comes to gender issues. This is just one example of many.
Women have been complaining about and trying to abolish gender roles for decades... EXCEPT when those roles benefit them, in which case the resist change with with all their might. That's just a fact, and it's very hypocritical.
I can agree with that I suppose.
Oh thank god ! Someone said it. The only way these girls will learn is if all of us men stop approaching women either they approach us or lose us simple. They need to learn to shift your weight.
Well,
I'm never going to ask out a man, never. I'm not going to degrade myself like that. If I have to stay single for the rest of my life ( which I doubt) I would not ask out a man. I'm not afraid of rejection, I just think it's wrong for a woman to do that,
In what way is it degrading?
Look, sweety, there is nothing you can say to change my mind, and it doesn't look like yours will be swayed easily. You'll just have to accept that some females will never ask out a man.
Have a nice day! :)
Whatever, I'll never understand where women get these retarded ideas from.
She's afraid of rejection. That's obvious. I mean, she can have her reasons and supply us with what she wants, but that's what it comes down to.
Degrading? Lol
Get the fuck over yourself.
But us men should "degrade" ourselves right?
I would ask guys out, but I'm afraid of rejection and I guess I'll be okay staying single until I find someone who ha a low enough self esteem to say yes...
That's depressing but whatever floats your boat.
Welcome to what men have to go through, so next time you reject a man, make sure to do it gently.