Should we mandate Higher Ed to save lives?

[OddBeMe]

Perhaps add two grades above the required 12? Two for community college, tech degree, etc. Because having a higher education literally saves lives, like seatbelts.

Yes

No

[WindAtMyBack]

Mandating higher education is the last thing we need. There are already too many people going to college. We will still need houses and food, and all the other things produced by dangerous occupations. College will somehow make it safer?

Remember the early days of COVID? Remember essential and non-essential jobs? The large majority of jobs requiring college fell into the non-essential category. Jobs requiring higher education are mostly "overhead". While the people doing the real work, the work necessary to keep us all alive, don't require formal education.

Standard deviations are a thing. It's straight math. When you have approaching 70% of the population going to college (not necessarily getting a degree), you know a substantial number of people with IQs below 80-90 are going to college.

When too many people listen to the mantra that formal education solves all problems, you not only create shortages in some occupation, you dilute the value of higher education.

[OddBeMe]

“Already too many people going to college…”

Ex-squeeze me? Run that past me one more time.

[OddBeMe]

We have too many people wanting labor jobs and trying to feed families with Walmart paychecks. That’s not sustainable.

[BlackBeauty90]

@WindAtMyBack - "While the people doing the real work, the work necessary to keep us all alive, don't require formal education."

Yes doctors who saved thousands of people from COVID aren't doing real work. Pharmacists, specialists, nurses, paramedics all of which require actual education don't do real jobs. They work harder than ANY job trained non-educated factory worker can pray for.

As for the rest
What real work? Farming is so simple that most intelligent farmers don't even bother to hire Americans they hire foreigners who can't even speak the local language. That's how little value the uneducated amongst American ranks have. Without an education you ARE replaceable.

If it's not by foreign workers at a cheaper rate then it is robotics. I've seen robotic floor cleaners, robotic "waitresses", etc. in some areas of the Americas traveling as I do for a medical consult. Jobs the least educated have in America and which the average employer would much rather trust a robot to do.

[WindAtMyBack]

@BlackBeauty90

1) You are cherry picking.

2) Ask yourself if you would rather try to live without doctors or the other professions you mentioned, or live without food, a home, plumbing, electricity, heating, etc.

Or to put it another way, if all the professions you mentioned were eliminated, the world would keep going, and wouldn't be a whole lot different than it is now. If you eliminate the trades, the vast majority of the population would die.

Or just ask the politicians who determined which professions are essential and which are non-essential.

As for your comment about farmers, you apparently have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Besides, it's completely irrelevant to the question and my answer. What's relevant is that farmers are a hell of a lot more important than doctors.

You made your comment without thinking it through. Either that or you have no idea what it takes to keep billions of people alive.

[BlackBeauty90]

@WindAtMyBack
"Or to put it another way, if all the professions you mentioned were eliminated, the world would keep going" ---- actually no it wouldn't. Do try to go back to high school & educate yourself.

If you don't have engineers then you don't have electricity and then the farmers can't produce shit. If you don't have shipping captains who are actually college educated then there's no oil or gasoline imported and then the farmers can't produce shit.

This isn't the 1800s anymore. Without the educated professions, the world dies.

You fail to comprehend that between the two aspects of education & workers yours or the little educated is the most irrelevant.

Most labour jobs are replaceable with foreigners that can't even speak the language. Or by robotics.

[Still-alive]

Eh i don't think we need to do that. lets just focus on making college free for everyone. that should do it.

[OddBeMe]

(Shrugs) I’m good with that.

[Daniela1982]

Schools are having enough time finding money for new books, and paying for a big influx of illegal immigrants whose kids have to have books and be taught in their languages. They can't find enough teachers or enough money to pay to school kids to grade 12. Plus, school tradition would be shot, no more senior dances, senior proms, and all the perks seniors get. The idea sounds ridiculous. That is what Jr. College is for. Don't make things more difficult for kids than they already are, as a lot of us hated High School. Who needs 2 more years of hate?

Another joke by OddBeMe !

[OddBeMe]

Sure, I’m saying make junior college mandated like 12th grade. You want taxes on future salaries we gotta have future minds to make those salaries. As of now, I don’t think we’ll have much in 30 years.

[Daniela1982]

Oh, I thought you meant make high school 6 years instead of 4. Most would drop out if that were the case.

[OddBeMe]

No but not far off. I’m saying after HS, we require kids to take two years of some type of higher education. If you go to college that counts. Tech school, junior college, etc. All good.

Research just proves positive correlation in more education more money earned over their life.

[petera1987]

High school IS six years though, not four.

[Daniela1982]

@petera1987 Not unless you add in Jr. High, but that was not considered actual High School, more like Middle School as many states call it.

[OddBeMe]

@petera1987 where is high school six years? Freshman, sophomore, junior senior. 4.

[petera1987]

What the devil is a "freshman"? Sophomore? No, it's Form One to Form Six, or Year Seven to Year Twelve. Secondary school is six years.

[OddBeMe]

@petera1987 in Czechmanistan! In America we gots Sophomores and Seniors goddarnit!

[Bloopbloopbloop]

I think the whole education system just produces robots. I have a college degree but I didn't learn how to deal with people or how to steer through life. I learnt some facts and passed an exam and now I'm in the world confused and feeling that I know nothing.

[OddBeMe]

College degrees don’t cure personality disorders. I would know.

[BlackBeauty90]

That's not the fault of the educational system, that's the flaw of yourself & your upbringing. Take responsibility instead of blaming everyone else.

[Bloopbloopbloop]

@BlackBeauty90 okay that was rude. Maybe you didn't read it properly or didn't get it.

[Bloopbloopbloop]

@BlackBeauty90 I was talking about dealing with people professionally. I'm a doctor and dealing with patients is a part of the job.

[Bloopbloopbloop]

@BlackBeauty90 if you can do something better than someone else, doesn't mean you are better or they don't deserve to be in the same field as you. You are really off putting so I don't wanna engage with you anymore. Thank god I don't have to deal with people like you.

[Anonymous]

We should probably reduce the investment in education and instead make it more role/job based.
Education must instead be focused upon teaching tools and how to learn from free materials.

We humans are never going to be able to train everyone to know everything in an ever more complex world, there simply isn't enough time and resources in life to know all that is needed.

So we shouldn't try and instead focus exclusively on the basic skills needed to acquire new skills and simply live.

[OddBeMe]

Higher ed or college doesn’t teach “everything”. Wtf are you talking about?

Think of it as industry training. Like having a forklift license is technically higher ed, just not a lot of it.

[Opinion Owner]

How is it that you @oddbeme overlooked the point that the current 'education' system is trying to do too much.

They are trying to pack children with too much spesfic knowledge rather than focusing on the tools to a quire whatever it is that they need when they find they need it.

A broad spectrum of knowledge is useful but modern schools are attempting far too broad a spectrum at the experience of the skills and drive to pick up what you need when and if you need it.

A trade school is a far more efficient use of time and money for this reason that they do in fact focus upon those skills actually required.

[OddBeMe]

I don’t know current curriculum. I’ve said before tho, it’s bad that kids leave HS forgetting what an hypotenuse is instead of knowing anything about the stock market.

[Avicenna]

Well, what would make more sense is to tweak the high school curriculum to offer more practical courses for students who aren't on a college track. We already have the problem of general education courses at the college level largely duplicating what was taught in high school. Note that in Europe, they don't do this. What you're suggesting would probably have a similar effect.

Another thing that is prevalent in Germany and would probably be effective in the US for some careers is a mixture of classes and hands-on training OJT. There is already some of that in the US, but we could offer more.

Note that in Florida, a Personal Finance course is now a requirement for graduation. There are almost certainly other states with a similar requirement.

[OddBeMe]

No against that at all. Though I think grade school should be more standard learning then students have enough experience and knowledge to pick which industry they’d like to study.

[DaveJord]

I strongly recommend and encourage that everyone consider Community College or Technical training... and states and government should do all they can to lower those costs. I am not talking about student loans either.

But when you say mandate... I hate mandates. In a truly free country individuals should and must have rights to choose. You start limiting people's rights to make choices.. its not a free country.

That goes for wearing masks, to gay marriage to abortion, gun rights and even seat belt laws. To me governments purpose is to incentive people to make better choices, not mandate, prohibit or penalize.

[bolverk]

No, because a person having a degree is no guarantee of intelligence, take Gender Studies for instance,

And the first graphic is misleading as it is not showing which are the most dangerous occupation. If it did it would show Fishing and Mining as two of the most dangerous occupations,

I'm a General & Marine Engineer and over my career I've met some of the most intelligent & dumbest people on the planet, The smartest without a degree and the dumbest with a degree, when push comes to shove a degree is only a piece of paper showing that you spent a hell of a lot of money over 4+years, the REAL education starts when you are on the job,

[OddBeMe]

Ok, and your memories of your experience could be tainted by ideology. But ok, I’ll take your word.

All I can go by is statistics. And it shows consistent direct correlation that having a higher education earns more money over that person’s lifetime.

And despite only 38% of Americans having a degree, we think funding ukraine is sinking our economy. That’s stupidity.

[exitseven]

Maybe make higher standards for K-12. Teach the kids how to read and do math, Teach them about history and music. Have a real curriculum and when kids fall behind they repeat the grade. Nobody just gets passed on.
I think there should be a public low cost (not no cost ) alternative to college that is available to all. It should not be mandated. Eveyone is the captain of their own destiny.

[OddBeMe]

I will agree that from my knowledge and memories of high school it was pathetic to graduate knowing about hypotenuse but not the stock market.

Now I did do marketing for a high school opening in town. And they had an impressive career tech department.

[exitseven]

I had 4 years of French but do not have trigonometry which would have helped me in college. With French all I could do was order Soup DuJour in a restaurant and read French protest signs/

[OddBeMe]

(Shrugs) same with Spanish. Which learning about languages is important Conjugates and root words. But we could sacrifice a year of algebra and Spanish for small business and stock market learning.

[exitseven]

At least if you speak Spanish you will fit right in here with all the illegal aliens.

[OddBeMe]

(Shrugs) better than druggie welfare queens.

[Blueeyes81]

Those jobs will still need to be done. So the same people will do that work but with the added expense of having to pay for higher education. No matter what society still needs general labor. Making those folks occur debt will only exacerbate the problem.

[OddBeMe]

We need it less than how large our “middle class” is. We need to raise our middle class to where the jobs are.

[Blueeyes81]

All my managers are engineers and I make more than them. There is absolutely no need for them to have a degree and the company would be better off promoting from within. They get the kids straight out of college and get them cheap because of the desperation to pay back student loans. But I digress. I took the route you mention, vo-tech. I also got paid to learn my current position. You start mandating higher education and it's just a matter of time before more and more jobs, that do not have a need for it, start requiring degrees. Society will be worse off when an assistant manager at dollar general needs a degree to make 30,000. and is now saddled with 100k in debt. I don't know what the solution is but forcing people to occur more debt is not it.

[OddBeMe]

Firstly your personal experience is irrelevant. Not why you’d be making more than your managers…but maybe. Still not the average.

And completely disagree. If dollar store requires a college degree that will most likely raise the salary. If ll boats are raised, the standards will raise.

[Blueeyes81]

It doesn't work that way. The wages still may raise but not enough to offset the cost of education. Some careers are absolutely worth taking on the debt but many are not. Requiring a stock boy to get a degree or trade school certificate will not raise his wages enough to offset the cost of education.

Education is important but if everyone gets a degree then they become just about as worthless as a high school diploma. It just becomes the standard to even get a job. It would do nothing to help income. Scarcity is the only thing that really drives up wages.

[OddBeMe]

And you know this how? Funny the GI bill did exactly that in the 50s.

[MrOracle]

The 1950s was a complete outlier situation. The US was the only major country with intact infrastructure, so the US made massive amounts of money (and had tons of jobs) because we were rebuilding Europe and Japan after the war.

There was also a massive technological revolution happening, as research and development during the war was being commercialized. Finally, there was a massive expansion of the government due to the Cold War, and the rapid development of the jet and of rockets.

This is also when colleges expanded tremendously, and in the process the value of the education started to drop, though it wouldn't start to be apparent until the 60s.

The bottom line is the the unique conditions of the 50s that rewarded a big expansion of college graduates doesn't exist today. In fact, we have far too many people with worthless degrees and not enough people in infrastructure and vocational jobs.

[Blueeyes81]

One could argue unions played a greater role in the boom of the 1950s. Unions were at there peak and have been on the decline since.

[OddBeMe]

All that could be true. But has trickle down Reaganonomics worked in the past 50 years? Nope. Starving the beast hasn’t helped. So we have two roads: one like the 1950s and one like the 1980s.

I say second GI bill and major infrastructure investment.

[Drewtate]

So basically you are proposing higher education for minimum wage jobs? We already have that problem with college graduates working for minimum wage.

How about more jobs that pay, lower rent and house prices, lower inflation, lower taxes.

[monorprise]

@drewtate Its true, univerities have far too much money and far too little accountability for their product. In any other industry if you spend that kind of money on a product that doesn't produce results you can ask for a refund.

Instead the collage system has become the richest institution in America selling degrees and 'education' which has largely not worked. Either because it failed to teach the student or failed to secure a job even capable of repaying it's cost, much-less the carrier promised.

Theses schools should be entirely responsible for the defaulted student loans at a minimum so that they might not offer soo many degrees in soo many useless areas at such a cost that can not reasonable be paid back.

Beyond that we also need to move to an ever more specialized education system to recognize our ever more complex world is beyond what any one human can understand and be more accountable to time spent.
The general education needs of humans consist of the ability to acquire knowledge and basic life skills.

[OddBeMe]

I don’t know why all you fcks keep changing this to your straw man bullshit. I mean exactly what I typed.

And not sure why college educated work hourly. That’s not an issues. There are jobs requiring more brain power, even tho they will train and educate you.

[hammeronfire]

No, I think once people are old enough to make their own decisions they shouldn’t be forced to do school. I’m not currently in school. I have some college and then joined the army. School isn’t for everyone. I am about to go back to get an associates degree in general studies, but that is by choice. It’s not somethin I think is necessary for every job so why do it

[OddBeMe]

Well…I agree on freedoms. But in looking at research and statistics it’s literally killing us and our economy. Sometimes the state has to step in and parent it’s citizens.

[hammeronfire]

I disagree. Not every occupation and profession needs to have a college education. For example, many trade jobs you can learn on the job as an apprentice it doesn’t make sense for someone who wants to be a plumber to get a meaningless college degree, when, in a year they can be trained as a journeyman plumber, and start working on their own for a plumbing company

[OddBeMe]

Didn’t say every occupation needed one. More Americans need higher education. That’s all I said. Whether tech school, community college, whatever. It does nothing but good for them and our economy.

Again a plumber is EDUCATED and requires EDUCATION. Which enlarges his bank account and our economy. See shit bird?

[hammeronfire]

Listen dickhead, I never said plumbers were on educated, I said that not every job requires a college degree. If high school is the highest level of education, do you need in order to enter the workforce and get a good job, then you should not be forced to take college classes if you don’t want to! See that, shit bird.

[D_Bone_Steak]

How is Ed (erectile dysfunction) gonna solve anything my fellow MENSA member? ... get it... member 😂 🤣

I'm a dick... be a dick with me, and don't be a pussy. serious 😔

[OddBeMe]

I could argue solving ED could make white boys less violent.

[Anonymous]

Higher education does save lives in healthcare, dentists and so on, but in the fields of mental health, no offence but the most highly educated ones in general have been the least capable of understanding troubled kids and teenagers like I was in my childhood. To them every problem was a child's diagnose and every solution was therapy/pills.

[OddBeMe]

Not sure how that works, but I’ll defer to you. Weighing that against a better economy and less death sorry.

[msc545]

No. More education or attempts at it will not solve the problem.

[OddBeMe]

Believe the exact opposite. Covid actually showed us what happens to children kept from school. Parents are dickless at teaching or educating. It’s quite sad. That’s when the state needs to step in.

You want a good economy and less death? More education. No other elixir will be as good.

[Potteplante]

Goodness, you've 12 mandatory school years?

We only have 10. 0-9th, more mandatory education, no thank you.

[OddBeMe]

Where are you in the world?

[Potteplante]

Denmark.

[OddBeMe]

You guys def have better grade school. I think I read Denmark or Sweden third graders were equivalent to our college students.

[Potteplante]

I sure hope not. I think it is hard to compare the US and the Nordic educational systems since they do differ as much as they do.

[OddBeMe]

Compare contrast, there are ways like average IQs. But Europe had to go down the socialist road after WW2 we didn’t. We should rethink that.

[Potteplante]

"formal" schooling is way less formal and way less authoritative - than the American,
focus on team building and problem solving over memorisation, less testing - tho they've been giving that a kick the last couple of years, we've pædagoger - as a part of elementary schooling, they focus on the children's socialisation and individuality while teacher focus on academics, and I think our teachers get paid and treated better and in my eyes more sensible classes. (1 math class is more than sufficient)

Denmark is not socialist - social programs =\= socialism, things are not black and white. The welfare system peaked for the first time in the late 1800 - which is a bit before WW2.

I worked within the Danish educational system, for a short amount of time - I've never thought about the IQ of the students, since that is not the determination of them succeeding in their goals. (There's more that one form of education, not everyone needs to be academically educated)

I'm grateful for the fact that I can actually become whatever I want (profession) - without worry about costs and financial struggles - all I've to do is put in the work.

[OddBeMe]

True. It’s quite ironic, America grade school is so poor yet we have the best colleges in the world (arguably).

[genericname85]

if you see the complete dunces walking around on campus spreading delusional propaganda, you get the idea that maybe "less of that" would be better for society.

[OddBeMe]

Spoken like someone who’s never been on a campus.

[genericname85]

Dude I have a master's degree xD. Even now you can go to my universities Facebook and see the leftist propaganda they spread about 0 carbon emissions, LGBTQ, black life matters, there's more than 2 genders and all this bullshit.

[OddBeMe]

All of which are good things… But ok, conservatives on college campuses may have it harder. Point taken.

[Anonymous]

Well, when have you more quantity, you sacrifice quality. The more students you have in higher ed, the less effective it will be because you will need to hire more professors and less of them will be competent.

To put it more simply, Harvard could admit 100,000 more students next year so more people could be Harvard-educated. However, it would have to hire roughly 10,000 new professors. The quality of Harvard's education would drop.

[OddBeMe]

I get what you’re saying, supply demand. But seriously having more than 30-40% higher educated society is only gonna raise the bar. We shouldn’t be afraid of that. Harvard makes money by being exclusive like all Ivey leagues.

[Opinion Owner]

But we should be afraid of sacrificing the quality of education. High schools are already loaded with fuck ups who have no desire to learn.. Do we really need these people in college?

[OddBeMe]

They’re loaded with fck ups from middle school on down. I don’t see how forcing a two year degree will hamper quality. It will only commit more Americans and their future children to higher education.

Those with college degrees instill going to college in their kids.

[gorydetails]

You leftes could stop using schools as indoctrination centers and actually educate children. That would do much more than 2 more years of propaganda.

[OddBeMe]

Parents indoctrinate enough. Schools just try to teach them life skills. If you didn’t drop out of fifth grade you’d know that.

[gorydetails]

Parents teach values. As is their job. How are your lovely schools in Baltimore doing?

[OddBeMe]

No actually they don’t. Especially poorer parents. Thus circling back to why we need more education.

[gorydetails]

How much education are they getting in Baltimore schools?

[OddBeMe]

Not enough. Hey! Good point! And it’s because there’s no standard public spending on schools across all communities. The white kids in the Baltimore suburbs are doing better. I promise you.

[gorydetails]

Ah, so it's only the democrat- run schools that are abject failures.

[OddBeMe]

I don’t know. What does Democrat run mean? We went over this before haven’t we? Just cuz a mayor is Dem doesn’t mean that cities school board is. Does it?

And certainly doesn’t mean states are “Democrat run”. Most aren’t. You Repubs never take the blame for your mismanagement.

[gorydetails]

How many of these folks are republican? You love doing your research... sniff out this one for me.

www.baltimorecityschools.org/board-commissioners

[gorydetails]

Maryland has a Democratic trifecta and a Democratic triplex. The Democratic Party controls the offices of governor, secretary of state, attorney general, and both chambers of the state legislature.

oh, and whoopsie, the entire city council of Baltimore is democrat
ballotpedia.org/Baltimore,_Maryland#City_council

[OddBeMe]

What are board commissioners versus school board members? Members who make the curriculum are usually community servants.

But regardless, worst school district on the map: Louisville Kentucky. Who you want to blame for that?

[gorydetails]

23 schools in Baltimore have zero students proficient in math. Whataboutism doesn't fly here, child. It's democrats from top to bottom in Maryland.

[OddBeMe]

Mkay, and Louisville Kentucky? The actual number 1 worst school district in the country?

[gorydetails]

As I said, no whataboutism. But the mayor of louisvile is a democrat, as is the governor. so once again, dems in charge = shitty living conditions.

[OddBeMe]

And Jason Glass was the education commissioner who tried to push anti-lgbt rules through. See? Not as black and white. You can’t point to Dems! and blame them for everything.

[gorydetails]

Anti lgbt rules, lol Once again, teach the fucking kids how to add and subtract, not the best way to suck dick. Although I'm sure you would have appreciated those lessons.

[OddBeMe]

So empathy and working together…instead of excluding lgbt and teaching hate. I’ll go with the former.

[gorydetails]

Virtue signal activated!

[Anonymous]

LMFAO! Is your "logic" that if everyone had 14 years of schooling no one would work in construction, extraction or food prep and serving? Is that how this "plan" would save lives?

[OddBeMe]

No. Not sure where you got that.

I’m saying our middle class wouldn’t be just above poverty level, it’d be above 50k a year, where it should be.

[Anonymous]

No, I gladly left after the mandated 14 years, I could have happily eft after half that and found my way

Anything to increase the liberal indoctrination

[OddBeMe]

We’ll have fun making minimum wage.

[Opinion Owner]

Self employed, the university educated ones are making minimum wage collecting shopping carts and working retail meanwhile I'm making 10k a month

[OddBeMe]

Not sure where you heard that but statistically it’s wrong. Obvi Covid and recession will taint past few years, but looking at decades will tell you exact opposite is true.

[Opinion Owner]

First hand account of older friends

[zagor]

Yeah if people spend the two years taking something like community studies it will just be a waste of time.

[OddBeMe]

Why? Seriously I only see good.

[OddBeMe]

I don’t know what community studies are. Social work? College degrees regardless of the subject gets you more money over your life.

You’d know that if you had one.

[zagor]

I have two. But in a STEM field. Not in classes telling me how oppressed I am.

[OddBeMe]

Are you using your degrees to make money?

[zagor]

In the sense they helped me get the jobs I've had, yes.

[Anonymous]

Hahahaha, never, that will make it take people longer to graduate from a good university degree and get a good salary.

[OddBeMe]

No dipshit if you go to college that would count as higher ed wouldn’t? Maybe take prek again

[petera1987]

No, definitely not, especially when you take into account the absolute nonsense that's now being taught in many modern-day colleges.

[serious_miss419]

Then increase the age of a minor, from 19 to 21.

[OddBeMe]

No. Age of consent has nothing to do with school.

[Anonymous]

No...