Shame: Why Conservative Cultures Stifle Girls

[reixun]

This Take is my first one and a part of my life that I don't often talk about. Thanks for reading in advance and I won't be enabling anonymous for that reason.

**

The word "hishow" in Somali is a command to be shameful. It was exclusively used on my sisters and I when it came to our bodies and hair ever since we were young. Your hair is peeking a little out of your hijab? Hishow. Your breasts are a little too shapely under your shirt? Hishow. You have the audacity to hold hands with a guy? Hishow.

I'd say that this affected me the most out of all my siblings. I've always been easily influenced emotionally. I insist my parents are saints and they are but MAN, have they affected my attitude about attention more than they ever thought they could.

Since I was being stifled by what my parents' idea of appropriateness was. I sought attention in unhealthy and healthy ways alike. And of course, never within the sight of my parents.

I love being center-stage. I realized that was a thing about my personality when I constantly raised my hand to play main characters for English class plays. My craving manifested dangerously when I sought validation from strange men on the internet.

I wished every night I could act and look the way I liked without my mother scolding me (tight in her definition is nowhere near yours, I assure you).

I spent long years unaware of what I was doing and how this was only getting worse with time.

The day I had a wake-up call was long overdue.

My brother told me that I act tough at home but my real personality was the one I showed to other people. He used a couple choice words that stuck in my mind, the words he used on me stung.

"You scuttle in the hallways like a meek little mouse."

"Meek." I was shocked and taken aback that such a lowly description with a word associated with soft, humbled saints who endure suffering in silence.

This was the *exact opposite* of what I wanted to be.

That's the thing with Conservative cultures. I've noticed a similar thing from Asia to Africa. They stifle girls and teach them the default is to be shameful when having a BODY shouldn't be something to be ashamed about. Getting *attention* isn't something to be avoiding, you should just exist without worrying about *other* people's reactions to you. You should be carefree and wear what you like.

IN CONCLUSION:

Don't teach your daughters that they should be ashamed of their bodies, teach them to own them proudly.

**

Thank you for reading.

😊 ❤️

[TheDevilInside]

Yeah but not too proudly, otherwise you may teach them that it's ok to be strippers and prostitutes. You should not be ashamed of your body, but you should also know what is appropriate to show when and where, and what's not. And more importantly, teach her that her value doesn't lie in her looks.

[reixun]

True

[Fathoms77]

Overly conservative cultures are basically sexist and even misogynist. All of that is wrong and has always been wrong; I don't give a crap what any religions says about it.

Even so, you can also go too far in the "liberating" direction as well. Case in point: U. S. A.

[10dsw]

Hahaha I could not agree more with your last statement. It's sad really.

[cipher42]

What? The US is still pretty conservative when it comes to stuff like this.

[Fathoms77]

@cipher42 LOL If there's one thing this country is NOT, it's conservative.

[RedThread]

It depends on your frame of reference. Compared to the middle east we are pretty liberal. Compared to northern Europe we are conservative af.

[cipher42]

@Fathoms77: Basically what RedThread said. We're not conservative compared to some areas, but we sure as heck do still have some very conservative customs. And the US definitely hasn't gone too far into liberating, but rather still has a ways to go to be at a good level. Women are still shamed for being "sluts", we still have areas where abstinence only sex education is the standard, and stereotypical gender roles for women still exist and are enforced.

[Fathoms77]

@cipher42 That would be your perspective and hardly fact... regardless of what your teachers and the liberal media are desperately trying to cram into your brain. :P

[cipher42]

@Fathoms77: which part? Because the fact that we're still plenty conservative compared to a lot of the West is absolutely true, you certainly can't contest that. The matter of whether we're too conservative or too liberal or what is more of a matter of opinion, but personally I prefer to err on the side of letting people do what they want without judgment, especially since the US prides itself so much on freedom.

[Fathoms77]

@cipher42 "I prefer to err on the side of letting people do what they want without judgment..."

We've been doing that since the late '60s and it hasn't gone well. I don't want to judge brainlessly, either, but all that has really happened is the complete suspension of responsibility and accountability, and a deplorable "I can do whatever I want" mentality, bolstered by the, "well, if everyone else takes care of me" caveat.

[cipher42]

Exactly what part of allowing women to dress how they want and be sexual liberated do you think is going to cause the downfall of society? I'm not talking about letting people do what they want without limit, just if what they're doing doesn't harm anyone else then why shouldn't we let their business be their business?

[Fathoms77]

@cipher42 Never said that was causing the downfall of society. I also never said any form of sexual liberation was bad.

I said extremes are bad, and that's where we are now. You think massive amounts of promiscuity doesn't hurt anyone but the people doing it? The children born into impossible situations, which in turn negatively affects society in a million different ways, from rises in crime to taxpayers having to pay for their very existence, thanks to countless government programs and forms of assistance? The skyrocketing STDs since this sexual liberation that has resulted in billions in healthcare costs, that once again EVERYONE has to pay for?

And "dress how you want" has become "dress like a complete slut and nobody should be allowed to say anything negative about it," or, "dress like a homeless bum because I'm too lazy to do anything else and again, nobody's allowed to say anything against it."

This is where we are.

[Saoirse_Nua]

Very true but I feel it is not just Africa and Asia - There is probably extreme forms conservatism and liberalism all over the world that are probably not that beneficial to women in today's society. I note you are 17 and hope you find a happy balance in your life.

[reixun]

Thank you, yeah I agree that extremes are bad. I find in my immigrant friends of African and Asian backgrounds face the same thing the most.

[QuestionMan]

I'm socially moderate, I abstain from alcohol and have never done drugs.
I hold myself to very high standards when it comes to behaviour and would teach my kids the same.
If I had a daughter I would be worried about the way she dresses and would discourage her from wearing crop tops, short shorts and ripped pants (they're stupid and ugly).
I would also not want my daughter to be promiscuous since I know how guys think and the potential consequences of her actions.
Other than that she can be herself.

[thetundrawolf]

Are you in an Islamic culture? Because they stifle women to the point where you are lucky to see even their eyes.

There is a line between gaudy flesh hanging out and modesty. I would rather see properly clothed women all day than naked women to the point where breasts don't mean anything to me at all because I see them every day kind of like in some places in Europe.

Sometimes it is better to remain modest, in spite of what you may want now. When you have a daughter one day you may not want her to dress gaudy, with hot orange hair just because she wants to express herself.

If you live in a Sharia controlled land, please be careful. They will kill you and/or rape you if you try and express yourself.

[reixun]

Muslim women want to be muslim and wear niqab willingly

[dipta]

I understand the part about feeling too self conscious because that kind of things was always pointed out to you and so on, but from there you say you actually always liked being the center of attention and the way you were brought up led to some incident with men on the internet?

One thing, I think it's normal in your age and even from many years from now to try and define the real you vs the daughter your parents raised in a certain way. In that sense, you feel that there's a big gap or discrepancy between the you at home and the you outside.
However,

[dipta]

... the you at home (meek mouse in disguise) vs the you outside, craving attention from strangers.
However, even though the strict way you were raised may have eventually led you to commit dangerous actions, I'm not sure it's fair to blame your behaviour solely on your parents. I would take that as a lesson and, as a young lady, start taking responsibility for my own actions and understand that not all attention is welcome, and actually many times it's better to be modest and not under the spotlight.
You don't need to be noticed by everyone, and not in a sexual way. That's a personal choice though.

[dipta]

Just to add, I don't think that's an Asian and African distinct characteristic.
European are more conservative than people may think and we also like to dress appropriately.

[reixun]

I think you misunderstand. I'm saying the true nature of myself is attention lover. Always have been, always will be. I suppressed it and it became that I accepted wholeheartedly what my parents wanted me to be (meek, quiet, mousy).

After I realized what I had became I began to reject it by seeking the attention that I didn't recieve (in unhealthy ways). I don't blame it on my parents, I blame the entire situation on my easily influencable nature. I shouldn't have let what they told me to become a part of me (my siblings were told the same thing and they're much more stubborn than I).

The fruits of my internal struggle of me vs who I thought I should be was too much and it backfired. This happens with girls of conservative families the most, I see the same thing in a lot of my friends who come from similar families. Which is why I wrote this take. The unrealistic expectations of girls from too conservative parents lead to unhealthy means of coping.

[lilac_flowers]

If you're a "meek little mouse" and you feel oppressed by your parents, I'm sorry but conservationism is not your problem, it's authoritarianism. This is often coupled with severe emotional abuse that would damage a person enough to make them have no self defense skills. Extreme form of this is called CPTSD (google it).

Being conservative and teaching your children your values can be done in a healthy, loving way. I happen to agree with many of them and I have liberal leaning parents. What you are describing is a very common reaction to overly controlling parenting: emotional damage and rebellious overcompensation for your lack of freedom by becoming an opposite.

Everyone knows this in our town, the sluttiest girls are surprisingly those who are strictly religiously brought up.

[reixun]

I'm not a meek little mouse, just wrongly percieved as one and you've missed the point. This kind of authoritarianism is found in conservative households majority of the time. Strictly religious people are almost always extremely conservative. You can preach moderate conservativeness but the truth of the matter lies in it's extreme.

[lilac_flowers]

@reixun "You can preach moderate conservativeness but the truth of the matter lies in it's extreme."

That's as if you said: "You can preach moderate water drinking, but the truth of the matter is that people die when they drink 8 gallons of it."

Oppression is not the fault of conservatism, but the backwards culture that promotes, or approves of abusive behavior in the name of religion, or conservative values. A culture maintains itself because each new generation has no other model for raising their kids and they all carry the same childhood trauma their parents do.

Unless your parents are somewhere in the cluster B of personality disorders (in which case please google CPTSD), my guess is that they come from a culture where everyone raises their kids like that.

People have done all kind of nasty things under the banner of an ideology, an idea, or a religion. That mostly speaks about the darkness within the people themselves, more than about the darkness within the system.

[reixun]

You aren't wrong, I group all this under backwards cultures that have a common conservativeness about them.

[CisScum]

First off, yes definitely agree that letting anons post would be shitty, a lot aren't mature and a lot seem really anti-feminist.

Secondly, I enjoyed reading this actually, it is good insight and I like the personal element to it. It's really good so good job :).

Thirdly, don't really have anything constructive to say, don't really deal with this too much actually. But as much as some people don't want to admit, even in the west some societies still stifle women to this day, so no surprise here.

[ObscuredBeyond]

This is a thing in those cultures for two reasons: a distorted understanding of the point of modesty, and a rejection of Adam being given prime responsibility for the Fall.

Not wishing to address the central issue of duty versus desire, these cultures beat around the bush by blaming femininity for everything. That which was designed to be very good is dismissed as inherently dirty.

Sadly, the world thinks the solution is to subject both sexes to practices which actually are dirty, degrading, and degenerative - and then to politicize it to crush religious opposition, consequences be damned.

[somebodysaycheese]

Yea, there is a problem on either spectrum on being too extreme. Our open culture in the west is too sexual. Women feel like they need to put out and show skin to get attention. Which they kinda do. So there needs to be a happy medium. And I know no culture yet that has a happy medium.

[ManOnFire]

@somebodysaycheese Women believe - and they want men to believe - that they get attention even if/when they don't show skin. They don't feel like they NEED to put out. They do it because they want to.

[LiveFreeorDieHard]

@ManOnFire well our American culture is basically you do you so her complaining that women feel like they have to show skin is bs. They do it because they want to not because our culture tells them to. We are all free to live our lives how we want in most western cultures especially americas. So stop blaming the culture for your decision.

[ManOnFire]

@LiveFreeorDieHard Yeah, that's what I was saying.

[Triss]

I am so proud of you my bebe 💋💋💋❤
I swear I didn't have the slightest idea of where you were from about your religion etc. No matter of these and your culture you will ALWAYS remain awesome and one of a kind. Ily so much girl ❤

[reixun]

Thank you hun ❤️❤️

[Ephemera1]

I'll be completely honest here, I whole heatedly believe you're parents were only looking out for you. They definitely used the wrong word to inform you though. There is no shame, instead there's respect; self-respect. Don't get me wrong,

[Ephemera1]

you're free to dress and behave as you please but keep others mind. Increasing the amount of attention makes it harder to control the type of attention received.
*hit submit by accident*
Grants in coming out of your shell doe

[Ephemera1]

Grats*

[reixun]

There's "self respect" and there's outright teaching you to hold yourself back in fear of other people's responses. And remember that Americans don't give a damn if a girl's hair is showing or you can see breast shape under your shirt. It's common for shorts, leggings and low cut tops to be worn. All I'm saying is that the amount you respect yourself isn't defined by the amount of skin you show because everyone has a different definition of modestness.

Thanks for reading ❤️

[Ephemera1]

"Americans"
So you don't classify yourself as an american?

All guys, no matter how respectful, will be looking at you and the way you dress. I guess what I was trying to say is, respect you generate for yourself, if that makes sense. Men talk about every single lady they see, the way she dresses gives off a different impression.

[reixun]

I am an American but my parents are Somalis.

[Ephemera1]

Wallahe?

[reixun]

Lmao wallahi, they have culture and values of Somalia and mines are entirely American.

[Ephemera1]

And in Somalia they teach you to guard the booty amirite?

[reixun]

"Guard the booty" lmao whut 😂

Yeah, at least nowadays. In the 70s, it was in the opposite extreme. Way less clothes.

[Ephemera1]

Yeah because men were expected to guard their gaze back in the day, didn't work out too well.

[Ephemera1]

Y u like and unlike

[Ephemera1]

Giving me notifications

[reixun]

Accidental 😅

[archiz]

nice take, I can understand it a bit since my community is somewhat conservative and I know really strict parents in my entourage.
just one question, did you feel appreciated, loved by your parents?
or did they lack affection and care towards you?

[reixun]

Yeah I love them, they love me. They are honestly perfect parents besides this one little thing.

[echoaj]

True. Conservative cultures around the world tend to emphasise Men as leaders. They Tend to think that men are the head of the family and the wife has no say on how to run things. She just takes orders. Then you have conservatives cultures that tell women how to dress and how to behave. It's not freedom, it is control.

[Cccgala]

Great myTake and your conclusion is very uplifting!
I hope my judgmental and overly conservative compatriots read this 😞

[reixun]

Thank youuuu

[Decentguy]

your parents must be looking out for you, you took it in a wrong way. believe me, there are lots of things that we dont understand about our parents or take it as offensive and negatively but we will understand and realize that our parents were right when we'll get older and when we'll become parents

[reixun]

I'm guessing you come from a similar background and have normalized this. "Looking out for me" in their definition is way over the top and extreme to the extent that I felt stifled and put into a box to hide away from the world. Life shouldn't be lived like that.

[Decentguy]

nope, im not from that background, but like i said, you will realize that your parents were right when you'll become more older and when you'll become a parent

[FinnishBeautyGirl]

It's easier for you since you are a guy, hun. Have you ever experienced this yourself?

[Decentguy]

@FinnishBeautyGirl believe it or not, but time teaches us the most valuable lessons, and i have far more experience in life than you and her. and yes i have experienced this kind of thing, not exactly the same thing but i learned that somethings we learn as we grow up.

[Decentguy]

@FinnishBeautyGirl you and her may not believe me yet but mark this down, after some 9 or 10 years you will realize this.

[reixun]

Of course my parents are doing what they think is best, they are looking out for me. That doesn't make it any less stifling and overbearing. I agree with finnish, my brother has it so easy so maybe that's why you don'y get it.

[Decentguy]

like i said, when you'll become a parent, you will understand

[reixun]

When you become a girl, you'll understand

[Decentguy]

ahhh, never mind lol

[FinnishBeautyGirl]

You don't know what I've been thro feel free to ask me privately I can give you a short version then we can see who has life experience. Even tho you have been here longer, I admit that

[Theodorable]

@reixun you're awesome. You're above the culture in which you exist. You're a flower growing in stoney ground. Be brave because people like you are the future. Good luck!

[reixun]

Thanks pal

[ManOnFire]

This isn't an issue with strictly Conservative cultures, it's mostly an issue with Islamic ones. Some others like Jewish conservative sects and some extremist Asian ones are the same way, but not to the degree of Islam. I think that's what the issue is. And, no, I'm not a Conservative or a Republican, and I do like some Muslims but I don't agree with Islam at all.

[Curmudgeon]

"Conservative" carries a different meaning in the West than in the Third World.

Indeed, in the classic 19th century meaning of the word "liberal", it is the "right wing conservatives" who are liberal, and the "liberals" who are socialist, in the USA and the Western world anyway.

[BlueCoyote]

Religion generally encourages the oppression of women (in addition to a culture that may or may not be conservative). If you think orthodox Judaism isn't that bad, think again. In Israel, orthodox Jews are campaigning for a law that forces women to sit in the back of public transportation vehicles, eerily similar to the racist law in pre-1950s America. Orthodox Jews in Israel also believe that a woman should leave the sidewalk and change to the other side of the street if a man approaches her (cuz he's the king and needs the whole sidewalk for himself I guess...). There have also been attacks reported in Israel because men got angry that women refused to leave the sidewalk. I mean... that's pretty screwed up.

And then we think of all these christian fundamentalists in the US who practice all kinds of weird and creepy practices dads being their "masters" for their daughters and then symbolically giving them over to the husband at the wedding... also pretty screwed-up.

[cipher42]

Buddy American society does this shit. American society is sure as fuck not Islamic. Conservative Christians believe a whole lot of the same stuff too, and no one gives them flack about it. Quit it with the xenophobia maybe?

[ManOnFire]

@cipher42 But American society isn't "oppressing" or "injuring" women still to the degree of Islam or other extremist religions. Conservative Christians here are not the majority voice.

[ManOnFire]

@BlueCoyote Again, what they're doing in Israel - and I just read it myself to verify your claims - still is not to the degree of what Islam does to women. It's bad, but Islam is doing worse. Raping and forcing women and girls into sex slavery, or not even allowing them to go to school. Israel is not doing all this.

[Curmudgeon]

@cipher42 Oh get real. Even in their wildest dreams the most conservative christian does not come anywhere near the "liberal" muslim.

[cipher42]

@ManOnFire: Yeah, but you did say that this issue was mostly an issue with Islamic ones. Maybe it's more of an issue there, but it's definitely not mostly Islamic cultures that have this issue.

@Curmudgeon: That's actually just straight up bullshit. How many muslims do you personally actually know? Because I have plenty of muslim friends, and honestly not a one of them is more conservative than the most conservative christian I know. So I know from experience that what you're saying is just blatantly false.

[BlueCoyote]

Fair point. Don't forget however that islam isn't the same everywhere. The kind of islam you're talking about mostly exists in Saudi Arabia and of course under extremist rule in Iraq and Syria. There are also many moderate muslim countries. In Indonesia, the most populated muslim country in the world, women are relatively equal to men. This would - traditionally - also be the case in Turkey if it wasn't for Mr. powerhungry Erdogan.

[Curmudgeon]

@cipher42 Get real again. If you went to a non-Western country, you would be in for a rude surprise. Ever been to one? I have, on business. It was shockingly unpleasant, and I am male!

[cipher42]

@Curmudgeon: Cool story bro, but uh, that ain't what you specified before. You said "the liberal muslim", not "the liberal Muslim in such and such a country". If that's what you meant, maybe you shoulda said that to begin with. And even then, I think you vastly underestimate how conservative the most conservative Christian is.

[ManOnFire]

@cipher42 No, it most certainly IS an issue with Islamic cultures far more than any others. Have you been doing any reading? Or just want to debate it?

[cipher42]

@ManOnFire: you're debating the wrong issue. What you said initially implied it was predominantly Islamic cultures that have this issue. Not that Islamic cultures have it to a greater degree, but rather that more Islamic cultures have the issue at all than other cultures. That's quite simply untrue. Maybe you misspoke, but regardless that's what you said and that's what I was addressing.

[ManOnFire]

@cipher42 I remember you now. You're that girl who thinks you're good at arguing when your points are not lined up. You're seeking debate where it really isn't necessary so you can seem smart.

What I said is exactly what it says: the issue is mostly with Islamic cultures AND to a greater degree. All you're doing is repeating what I'm saying but trying to make it look as if what I'm saying isn't what I'm saying. It's ridiculous.

[cipher42]

No, from what I can see my issue is that due to the way you are phrasing what you're saying you are in fact saying something entirely different from what you intend. The trouble here is not me "twisting your words", it's that your words are twisting themselves. What you mean to be saying as far as I can tell is that this issue is more exaggerated in Islamic countries. It being "mostly an issue in Islamic countries" means that Islamic countries are the primary regions where this is an issue at all. That's clearly not true, because there are so, so many countries where this is an issue, and though some of those countries may be Islamic the majority of them are not. Again, perhaps in Islamic countries this issue is a larger one, but that doesn't support what you were saying based on the way you phrased it, which is what I was taking issue with.

[KHaskins]

I grew up in a strict, conservative Christian environment. My parents fret over my adult sister preserving her virginity for marraige and fought me tooth and nail for over a year when I got in a relationship with someone outside the faith (a nonpracticing Muslim, originally from Syria, who said my parents were conservative by the standards of where she grew up). This isn't a kooky cult thing in the American Bible Belt, either - there are synods even more conservative here where women aren't even allowed to vote in church decisions. They've been reading their Timothy.

It's not exclusively an Islamic thing.

[ManOnFire]

@KHaskins No one seems to be hearing me. I'm not saying it's exclusively a Muslim thing. I'm saying that it is MOSTLY a Muslim thing and to a much HIGHER DEGREE than even other conservative sects.

[cipher42]

Like I said, the way you worded your statement means that you're saying something entirely different than what you seem to think you are. And yet you just said it again. "Mostly a Muslim issue" doesn't mean that the issue tends to be more exacerbated with them, which is what you seem to be defending (unless I'm incorrect?). It means that more Muslims and Muslim nations have this issue at all than non-Muslims and Muslim nations. Which is clearly untrue.

[TadCurious]

Thank you for sharing this very personal myTake. It saddens me when girls and women are shamed because of their natural bodies and sexuality. You are very self-aware and that is the key to breaking free. Great job.

[dudegrt09]

Girls are shamed for their bodies EVERYWHERE, it's funny how you're pointing to only African and Asian cultures.

[reixun]

Nah, I disagree. I'm talking about the conservative countries within those continents, not all of them.

[dudegrt09]

Then maybe you haven't been to many places but fat shaming, when women wear too revealing clothes they do get shamed in Europe and NA too, as I've seen that myself there

[reixun]

Not for wearing revealing clothes but rather for being fat which is an entirely different subject.

[dudegrt09]

For wearing revealing clothes too

[Luci92]

I'm sorry that you felt like this, but you're strong as demonstrated by your choice to share on here. Keep your chin up babe <3 :*

[Reflexy]

Talking about other peoples cultures tends to be accompanied with the presumption of ones own culture possessing superior qualities. This makes me unable to have an opinion on this topic, so I will thank you for this mytake and move on :)