Jawline is thought to be bone, but it's actually muscle and tooth position!

[Robertcw]

I'll explain. There is a lot of debate on what defines masculinity. Wide midface, vs forward midface. Long jaw vs wide jaw. Often we here 'strong jawline.' But what foes it mean? I don't actually know, but I do know how one conception of 'jaw line' actually has more to do with chewing and facial muscles than bone.

Check this out: here are two examples of what some consider a strong jaw.

Notice the hollow cheecks. That means the bone actually doesn't go out that far (or else the cheeks wouldn't actually be hollow). What extends the skin outward in these cases is actually jaw muscle. Turns out there is a way to build extra jaw muscle via chewing exercises

A company makes these little white chewing tools that are used 10 min a day as a face workout. You can see a before and after shot above.

The other thingthat affects this is orthodontics. Teeth angled inwards on the jaw cause the bone to touch the skin before the tooth. Making a line. If the teeth are straight up and down on the bone, then the teeth touch the cheeck before the bone.

The other notion of 'strong jawline' is width. For example, Will Smith was rated as having the most masculine face possible in one study on male facial attractiveness.

He has no hollow cheecks, nor sharp angles, but a very wide midsection. And a wide jawline. Dwayne Wade is another example. (They also have large noses, which is also a male trait).

In this way, I actually believe the chiseled jaw look is actually a feminine face. Especially considering they also have small straight noses.

But look for female faces and that's all over the map too.

Asian girls have wide midsections amd wide jaws. Euro girls have longer jaws and narrower faces, unless they're latin. Latin girls have wide jaws.

Some girls have narrow chins, some dramatic, some recessed and some long like a horse.

Ultimately, I'm begining to believe that jaw bone structure is more determined by race and ethnicity more than sexual dimorphism. Any thoughts on this are welcome.

[NineBreaker]

I like this take, but I disagree with the Jay statement about sexual dimorphism.

Men's bones generally, and males especially tend to be larger, and wider.

Jaw shape is often a combination of tooth alignment, muscle size, and bone size and shape. One of the reasons is that the jade muscles in men tend to be larger and stronger (courtesy of sexual dimorphism), and that leads to larger and more dense bones.

This is far more pronounced in other primates, especially gorillas. I have a take about animals with the strongest bite ranked. Gorillas are way up there and I have an image comparing male and female skulls. It's true for humans as well, but the differences (although there) are not as pronounced.

In any case, I enjoyed reading this take. Nice work.

[MotoMoto]

I agree with your statements

[Robertcw]

I think the only real dimorphoc difference is tje size of the chewing muscles and the size of the chin bone.

[Robertcw]

I think the idyom 'jaw line' should really be changed to 'chewing muscles and chin line' -- it would be much more accurate and much less misleading and confusing in my opinion.

[yikeserino]

Yep, you caught me. I've been moving my jaw to create different looks for the longest time. Stressed face and jaw vs. Relaxedish

[Robertcw]

Love the photo examples!

[gym4ever]

That is not stressed and relaxed.
That is just another head position and lighting.

[Robertcw]

@gym4ever She's clearly clenching and biting down in one photo, and relaxing/not touching her teeth together in another.

[smg99]

Wrong sorry coming from the Dentist I’m sorry the jawline is the inferior border of the lower jaw, the mandible, whose position and tonicity are defined at rest and function or within its range of functional movements.

Let me explain whilst you have one concept right, you are merely attributing the area to the muscles and tooth position.
To some extent.
However, for this to exist must lie on a foundation.
That is the bony lower jaw , aka the mandible.

The teeth are in sockets of the mandible known as the alveolar processes. Hollow spongy bone surrounded by trabecular or web interlaced bone to sustain its pressure as it’s a hunted bone at the jaw joints or tempero-mamdibular joints of the left and right sides (TMJ)
Tonicity, teeth and muscular forces are part of what we Dentists have studied as Monsons’ Spherical Theory, where the complex functional dynamic of the bone, the teeth and it’s biting relationships with teeth of the upper jaw ( maxilla) as known as occlusion, a lengthy topic itself ! And neuro muscular regulation of the function of muscles elevating or depressing the mandible are a complex niche itself.

The very premise is a bony foundation and then the bands of muscle wrapped in muscular fascia act in groups and bundles, synergistically and opposing each other in functional limit.

To talk about beauty and Esthetician’s concerns, we take measurements and keep in mind the concept of the famed ‘ Golden proportion’. Measurements change and that even for a non patient can define length, depth and height or cross sectional or front based view of one’s lower facial symmetry.

[smg99]

To say the jaw line is only the muscle you must mention it’s tendons of attachment and it’s volume or why it is dense in one area whilst thinner in another?
What important vessels does it reveal or conceal?
Why?
That is why this spherical theory has taken it all into consideration.

Strong jaw is dependent on muscle tone , angle of tilt of the lower mandible at rest when it’s head is in the rear most and backwards placed position in the ball and socket joint that is the point of mouth opening, the TMJ.
Why? There is complex micro physiology or cellular physiology that dictates the rate of sodium/potassium ATP pump rate and Calcium entry essential for muscle contraction.

Depleted ions lead to a poorly toned muscle and may lead to wasting, sagginess and eventually to disuse status.
To get this at times you can try jaw excercises of holding it taut and massaging your face below and near to the lower jaw.

There is much
More I’m essentially condensing it to mere simplicity now.

[smg99]

Conclusions: The definition of the jaw line is determined by many factors , race, genetics but as a generalization to gender and functions.

[Robertcw]

I think from a straight heaf on angle, for the median of people, muscle will determine the line people see when clenching their teeth together as the guys in my examples are doing.

Some people (like me) used to think that was the bone making that shape poking against the skin. But it isn't so.

From a front profile all we can see are the chewing muscles and the chin. The rest of the jaw bone isn't even visible.

I loved reading your answer though.

I'm really begining to think that, besides tbe golden ratio of proportions (which I'm assuming has the face below the mouth a third of the whole face, and the cheeck bones, forhead width and jaw width all nearly equal, male facial attractiveness has to do with large chewing muacles and a large chin bone, aaaaand that's it. Nothing else seems to matter visually.

[smg99]

Esthetically yes that is what is apparent as is on profile view, an angle most photographers capture.

[Robertcw]

Cool. Blows my mind how so many people think that's the bone thry're looking at (me prior included).

In reality the line is just the skin being pulled taught by the muscles at the cirners of the jaw and the front of the chin.

That means guys with round races just have undeveloped jaw muscles or a bad bite that doesn't allow them to close thrir jaw properly.

[Robertcw]

taut*

[smg99]

Softening is also attributed to the pad of cheek fat/ buccal fat and thickness of inner lining mucosa/ gum and faint glistening lining soft tissue. The bone yes determines how much space is available for relative thickness of your soft tissue ( gingiva/ gum, lining soft tissue , tissue sheath/ fascia and band of muscles).

All these factors do determine how the height, depth, sharpness or softening of your jaw is both from front as you mentioned and side ( my favorite view for photos / a half tilt )

[Golmaal11]

Hello can you please help me I need an urgent help from you please it's important
Can you please PM me

[Tooth-Pic]

Dental student here. There are 4 muscles of mastication (chewing). 1 is the Temporalis muscle, which you can feel work at the temple while you chew. The medial and lateral pterygoids do not contribute to facial esthetics. They work on unhinging your jaw from a socket in order to allow you to open your mouth wide. The last muscle is the massester, which is located behind the molars near where your jaw curves up towards the ear.

The point I'm trying to make is that the "chewing" muscles are not really located around your cheeks. The buccinator muscles are located in the cheek, but they are for sucking your cheeks in. I do not recommend the chewing tablets. All that will do is develop clenching habits and over-defined mastication muscles (similar to the first picture. Unless you like that look, I think it looks odd).

In terms of the orthodontic treatment, I don't understand what you're saying. Your teeth do not sit perpendicular to the jaw, they are tilted a bit due to how the teeth come together. Orthodontics can, to some degree, fix issues with lip protrusion, chin protrusion, and jaw width, but only at a young age.

[Robertcw]

Hmm, I think orthodontics can do a lot for people with open bites. By this I mean their jaws do not line up and they cannot fully close their mouths.

[bellybuttonlint]

People think jawlines and facial features are influenced by hormones like testosterone and estrogen but studies have debunked this.

Look at Margot Robbie, Angelina Jolie, and Ariana Grande... they all have chiselled jawlines that even men would die to have yet they are still very feminine. Has anyone ever said Vin diesel or The Rock has a great jawline? Because they don't and I can assure you their testosterone is a lot higher than the women mentioned.

The most important thing to having a good jawline is the environment. Yes, masticating gum helps but also leaness... the women mentioned are all lean. Teeth are also important to facial structure since they also provide support to the jaw.

[Robertcw]

Dwayne Johnson is incredibly lean. The reason is because the euro-model look is actually a feminine face.

And it's biased towards German and Nordic features.

Most male models have small upright forheads with tiny brow ridges.

[bellybuttonlint]

He is bulky but he does not have a low bodyfat percentage like Ariana Grande. Despite his testosterone levels and fitness he has a very poor jawline.

The modelling industry is geared towards androgynous people, but some models like David Gandy are probably the type that most women go for.

[Robertcw]

Oh yeah, not lean at all:

[Anonymous]

Good point about ethnicity. However, I'll point out that a part of transgender facial feminization surgery is jaw and chin recontouring. It's one of the things that I had done. (The others were hairline advancement, forehead recontouring and brow ridge reduction, brow lift, rhinoplasty, cheek implants, lip lift, and tracheal shave.)

[Robertcw]

What did the jawlne recontouring consist of?

[Opinion Owner]

From my surgeon's website:
www.drspiegel.com/.../

[Massageman]

"I actually believe the chiseled jaw look is actually a feminine face". So, the top two pix you posted are actually men with the most feminine jawlines since they are the most chiseled?

This would be contrary to facial characteristics related to the sex of the individual. Since females have more adipose tissue, their faces would have, by definition, a softer, look and feel. Men would have less adipose tissue and be more angular just as their bodies are more angular.

[Robertcw]

Well, everything I read on masvuline faces says flat cheeckbones, wide face midsection, wide short jaw.

Look at Brad Pitt, flat cheecks, soft edges arpund jaw. Wide face. And most NFL players, same deal.

Ex.

[Robertcw]

just to add on to this, those guys have no brow ridge at all. They *are* feminine faces. I have a theory that European modeling agencies seek out masculine women and feminine men to do modeling because it has more contrast that way.

[Robertcw]

And I mean the first two in the mytake.

[Massageman]

I understand. It just seems like your comment about the chiseled jaw went against your own thoughts since I thought you disageed with most who thought the first two pix WERE masculine jaws.

[SomeGuyCalledTom]

Good to know, I guess? tbh I don't really give a rat's about things controlled by genetics. It's already hardwired from birth (and I suppose bolstered by selective growth hormones), so as Homer Simpson says, "why me worry?"

Also the 'model' in first picture looks like he's dying I swear lol

[MentorTom82]

Not really a question, but a lengthy paper on jaws and the jawline. I would agree with it being more a question of race and ethnicity than sexual dimorphism. But I'm guessing this is particularly interesting to you for a reason. Possibly you have accused of having an effeminate face accentuated by a soft jaw? I have similar issues which I have grown out a beard to hide and distract from undesirable facial features. Dunno if this helps, just what I got out of it.

[mermaidia_lol]

I don't think it was meant to be a question...

[Robertcw]

@mermaidia_lol yeah it's just a mytake. I find the topic interesting.

[elite665]

Okay yes jawline is from the jawbone not cheek bones yes muscle and chewing help but it’s all defined by where your bone is positioned so basically it all still comes down to jaw bone

[Robertcw]

I don't know man. Seems to me from the front the jaw bone isn't visible at all. Only the chewing muscles at the back of the jaw and the chin bone.

[elite665]

You know tbh I won’t know I have a decent jaw all I’m saying is it does not seem legit at all maybe if your toning those muscles it can appear wider but most of these jaw things are for people who have had facial surgery and need to retrain their jaw

[ThisGuyDucks]

bro the most important thing is to lose weight and lean the fuck out.
At the point your abs become very visible, your face fat is also pretty much gone and facial structure starts popping out.

[Robertcw]

Yeah, but I think building the face muscles will always make it look better. Just like a bigger chest is better than a small chest, at the same body fat %.

[ThisGuyDucks]

I agree but I don't.
First of all face muscles are only meant to chew, that's it, that's literally what they're for.
They're not used for lifting.
Secondly, building jaw muscles is extremely hard if not impossible.
Thirdly, most of jaw exercises, even chewing gum for a long time will fuck your jaw bones up.

None of the guys you show in the pictures do jaw exercises, they have nice jaws by genetics.

[Hereagirl]

I don't know about all that ethnicity and race but I do know that after I started working out, (planks, I think, I'm not sure which excercise led to this) I started developing a defined jaw line. The extra neck fat or whatever started to go down and hence I got a pronounced jaw line.

[sageevalentinee]

I don't know who these guys are. I don't mean to be superficial...

but oooof! That first guy was... wow

[Robertcw]

So you like German boys. lol. He certainly has large well-built jaw muscles, and aligned jaws, so it's understandable.

[0112358]

In the before/after pic...

His mouth is open (lips together) in the second. Try it yourself. Changes jaw, cheeks, cheekbones, lips.

[Robertcw]

That is my point exactly. This is also why having misaligned teeth or jaws destroys the male face.

An open-bite is a guarantee of a weak jawline no matter how big the jaw bone is.

[oldoldold]

All of this rubbish could have been avoided with a little research. Some basic developmental anatomy should help you. And spare us.

[Robertcw]

I have read much on the topic. There is no consensus on the debate of masculine faces.

However, visually, what we see in a jawline is either the jaw muscle or the tooth being angled inwards off the jawbone.

Orthodontics can alter the jaw's contact with the cheeck and change face shape.

[Robertcw]

Obviously if one jaw is much shorter than another it will be recessed. But That's not what I mean here.

I mean, if wr have regular jaws that are the same length, with a normal bite, then what affects jaw line? Its the jaw muscles and tooth position.

[smg99]

Developmental anatomy doesn’t give you accurate information on how the mandible will form. It only covers the topic of the branchial arch development. The mandible belongs to the third and the Manila’s and facial skeleton plus muscles and soft tissue , arterial system, nervous plexus to its respective arches. The upper to the second and the skull and brain to the first.

Does that tell you tonicity? No
Does it give you information on length and height of the lower jaw? No
I don’t know what nonsense the opinion input has to do with your input.
To be honest I read your my take I understand what you mean and how you interpret it.
True ofcourse that is the premise of x rays to begin with , because we only appreciate the muscles and skin over the skeleton. We surly don’t walk like the inside outsiders ;)

Actually jaw line is the lower border. The upper border is where the teeth lie.
Tooth presence and absence can cause an effect called RRR: Residual Ridge Resorption through a loop mechanism to the brain telling it of no pressure or absence of what is called ‘proprioception’.
The ability to react to pressure stimulation in simplicity.
When a tooth is absent the area undergoes biochemical change.
More bone forming blasts form to cover the vacant socket. Smoothing occurs by clast/ osteoclasts to refine its texture and make it smooth.
Then gum collagen forms to cover it.
So infection doesn’t enter your marrow space. That might lead to osteomyelitis a fatal bone marrow infection.

So the lower jaw line is only decreased in height with its associated relationship to tooth presence / absence ; the height of the jaw.

[Ladylasoe]

What is the company that sells this? I'm interested in this.

[elite665]

Don’t be it’s a scam the guy in the before and after picture is literary just flexing his jaw anyone can do that this is all bs and without cosmetic surgery you can’t change how you face is

[Robertcw]

It's called Chisel. They're located in the EU. Here's their website: https://chisell.eu/

[smg99]

These are known as Myocascial passive external appliances or sometimes also internal. It’s muscle tone and position re training basically.

[adriiiaaanna]

Nah chisel is defs not a scam. There’s plenty of evidence and it makes sense that it works.

[roflgun]

The first guy is hot 😩😍 I posted him in one of my posts as an example too. Men, take notes.

[Robertcw]

Unfortunately, that hone structure is gery specific to Northern Europe. Only Gemran and Nordic men will have those features.

[Robertcw]

Though it can also be found in Persia, because they are the origin of the Aryan gene. Can also be found in American blacks who had slave rape in their ancestry. Theu basically have German faces, but with dark skin and curly hair.

[roflgun]

Fuck u guys I’m moving to Northern Europe then 😂👋

[Robertcw]

xD SMH. For instance, take a lool at Barcelona's soccer team compared to Germany's or the Netherland's soccer teams. Compare the faces.

Barcelona:


Germany:

Netherlands:

[Robertcw]

LOL, excuse me, Netherlends:

[Shamalien]

Where can I buy those chewing things? Was reading about this a few weeks ago and its so crazy, the entire face can change shape, even in adulthood! Bone structure is definitely still a factor as well though

[JMuhammad]

You define masculinity by the shape of a man's jaw? And other material aspects of body rather than behavior? Wow, is this site full of losers. That's my opinion.

[GreatnessBack]

I agree to a point but I done express it because it just invites racism. Some asshole is going to take this theory and make some dumb conclusions to just pick on people. Sigh.

[Babygirl_S]

It's a bone called the mandible. It is covered by muscles and fat and they can alter it's appearance but not to a huge extent.

[Golmaal11]

Can you please adopt me as your son
Please PM me

[incelposting]

Cope, its about the sharpness and angle as well as size.

Except for bonesmashing, you cannot grow your jaw