Cooking: Nuanced Complexity?

[HighlyVolatile]

How does one achieve the most nuanced complexity in cooking? This is like a Q for pro chefs from someone who is an idiot beginner.

In the few rare times that I've been able to try Michelin-star 7-course French restaurants, there is a quality with every single dish I can only describe awkwardly with words as "nuanced": most "exquisitely nuanced".

It's so extremely subtle and complex at the same time, like just the most subtle notes -- almost faint enough to not be there but there anyway.

I've never been able to replicate it. I have a fondness for such complexity and I've managed to replicate it halfway successfully with my Indian favorite food, but my favorite Indian food lacks that subtlety; it has the complexity but not the subtlety. It punches us with flavor.

I tried to describe this on a Discord cooking channel one time and managed to offend a French home cook there upon describing my favorite French food as "bland and complex". Then he took offense when I called it "bland" and maybe I used the wrong word. I meant to say it was so subtle and beautiful. It's like a "delicate whisper". My English is too bad to describe it properly and I don't think he understood what I was talking about because I explained it too poorly.

I've been trying to follow recipes religiously from Escoffier and Julia Child but they lack this subtlety I'm seeking at least in my execution of it. If there are people out there who know what I'm poorly trying to communicate, what would you recommend for a clueless idiot to better achieve this effect?

Updates

+1 y

Also from an English standpoint, is there a word like this? I think "bland" is the wrong word. They were all so delicious and extremely complicated! So subtle in flavor. So maybe not "bland". But it is like it's trying to be as mild in flavor profiles as possible until it disappears.

[TrueConfection]

Michelin would probably give me a negative rating and a slap across the cheek. 😬 I think asking for that kind of advice on gag is like asking for a medical diagnosis on gag. Maybe not as risky.

Bland would describe a boiled brown potato without seasoning. It means almost flavorless. I'm not sure how to describe the subtle hint of flavors you experienced, except maybe "delicate"? I don't know the culinary term.

I personally like to experiment with sauces and seasonings. I have found that the length of time a sauce or seasonings have cooked, the more robust their flavors become. With that being said, I do update my seasonings in the pantry because they will actually lose flavor as they age. Fresh herbs and spices make a giant difference in flavor. Food goes from meh to BANG! I ran out of fresh onions the other day and substituted onion powder in one of my recipes, my 18 year old called me out on the flavor difference!

I have also learned from a friend that the brand of ingredients makes a difference. We experimented with our own little cooking contest. His was sale ingredients, mine was the trusted brands I know taste best. My dish won and so did I. 😂

Anyhow, that's all I can offer. Happy cooking!

[HighlyVolatile]

It's good enough for me and I don't have national culinary-improvement insurance here, only the national health insurance one here in Japan. :-D Although I wish we had national culinary improvement insurance. I'd be waiting all day there getting tips from Marco Pierre White or someone like and I'd extend his time with my cooking diagnoses bringing notes and essays with me and bringing a bunch of dishes I made.

I've also found time the key ingredient to the robustness of flavors. But the best dishes I make always pack a "punch" with the flavors. They lack that subtlety. Maybe I need to really start cooking things more separately. I think it's a distinctiveness of flavors that I'm also seeking. I tend to roast things until I get them blurring together.

[HighlyVolatile]

If I make a pot roast in the slow cooker, for example, even with my own homemade beef stoke, almost everyone tastes like beef and onions. The carrots taste like beef and onions and only slightly sweet like carrots. The beef tastes like beef and onions. The onions taste like beef and onions. The potatoes, etc.

[HighlyVolatile]

* beef stock

[HighlyVolatile]

And everything, argh! Sorry.

[TrueConfection]

I forgot to mention vinegar and oils. It's important to use the right oil. I don't even own vegetable oil 🤢. I use canola, olive, peanut, whatever will contribute to the flavor. I do not skimp on the vinegar either. I only use a balsamic vinegar that is carefully aged and loved to where sipping it would be delightful. I also check ingredients on things like apple cider vinegar to make sure sugar and corn syrup are not added.

I'm not a fan of one-pot meals. I do cook things separately. You might find that is exactly the difference you are seeking.

[TrueConfection]

Gag stole my emojis again. I don't know what's going on with the emoji block.

[HighlyVolatile]

I'm also using a wide range of fats/oils but the animal type isn't so popular here. I tend to save it like if I make chicken thighs, I'll low-heat the skin and collect the rendered fat. Same with pork. I collect a lot of chicken and pork fat.

Maybe I need to cook more things separately for sure. I've been thinking about getting a pressure cooker to speed things up over the slow cooker. Also sous vide interests me a lot.

[TrueConfection]

I never ever cook carrots with anything because I think they overpower the other flavors. If I'm using onions that way, I cook them in a pan first. I don't necessarily brown them, maybe just wilt them depending on the dish. You might want to try a different onion. White are very mild, the big yellow ones are powerful, the flat yellow are sweet, etc.

[TrueConfection]

Ok, pressure cooker and sous vide are opposites. lol

I so lovingly received a pressure cooker for Mother's Day one year. 👀 If I'm in a hurry and not concerned about flavor, I use it. It does give a good texture, but the flavors are not as infused. That might be a goid answer for your roast.

I've heard good things about sous vide.

[HighlyVolatile]

One of the best dishes I ever made came from shallots. I was living with my wife (she was just my girlfriend) and I acted all pretentious getting fancy shallots and wine and reducing it with the shallots and adding diced garlic just at the end... very beautiful! I sometimes wonder if that type of ego helps our cooking like "I'm #1 even if I'm not!"

[TrueConfection]

I love shallots, but they are a little spicy, so I use them sparingly. Yes, anytime I cook with wine, saffron, or make a "reduction" anything, I feel so professional. 😂

[HighlyVolatile]

One thing I might need to think more about is fats. I think French cuisine is very generous with the fats (ex: a boatload of butter), and that seems to have a textural effect of coating the mouth with the flavor which might help us to detect the subtlest of notes like the tiniest bit of sourness from, say, vinegar or lemon zest cutting through, or the slightest hint of bitterness, the slightest hint of umami, just savory enough to taste the dish without being salty, etc.

Fats are sort of a weak point for me here since a stick of butter costs around $5 USD here in Japan. Maybe I need to add that sort of fat coating to allow more delicate flavor profiles to be detected... just a wild conjecture!

[HighlyVolatile]

Also in Japan, we are very averse to using a lot of oil in our cooking... maybe a tablespoon maximum on a frying pan. But I might need to embrace more fats for the "mouth-coating" effect. I wish I took notes the last time I went to a Michelin-star French restaurant! I don't even remember the names of half the dishes that impressed me so much.

[TrueConfection]

Personally 😬, I'm not a fan of fats. I think they quickly overpower the other flavors. They're super unhealthy too, your health and wallet are better off without them. I do have a sensitive pallet, so I taste the flour, the salt, the butter, the pepper, the zest... all seperately in each bite. This makes a lot of foods nauseating, but also gives me a sweet tooth.

[TrueConfection]

Thank you for the MHO ❤

[HighlyVolatile]

One thing I'm wondering as an alternative is thickeners if not fats. I like to thicken a lot of sauces/soups/stews/gravies but my goto is a slurry or a roux (anywhere from light blonde to dark as in the case of Cajun)... more often slurry out of laziness than a roux, and I've mostly made a dry roux in the oven to avoid loads of fats. But I find they still impart a strong flavor to the dish that tones down everything else, so I'm wondering about experimenting with alternatives like xantham gum. I've heard it has a powerful thickening/emulsifying effect while not altering the subtle flavors of the dish whatsoever.

[TrueConfection]

A little cornstarch/maizena mixed with cold water is a common thickener for sauces and gravy. I am terrible at making gravy. Sauces can be reduced for thickening, but not gravy. I've used cream of tartare before.

[HighlyVolatile]

I often use cornstarch/maizena slurry as well as extreme reductions and sometimes even veggie pulp slow-cooked and blended until they practically disappear and thicken but I've never tried cream of tartare.

I have this vicious cycle when I make a sauce where I taste it in the early stages, and I'm almost there! I got so many subtle things going on with a little hint of spicy, the barest hint of sweet from veggies like carrots, the most delicate hint of sour from wine or vinegar, maybe a bit of umami (although I can't really tell umami so clearly except that I want to eat more), just enough savory to taste everything without being salty... it's almost there!

Then I'm like, "I just need to make it thicker now!" Then I thicken it up and reduce it with a slurry and then all the subtlety is lost. Then I dump more salt, spices, and acid, to restore what I lost and it's there now but lacking the subtlety I lost on the way. :-D

I always end up with what I want to call "Middle Eastern/Indian". :-D Very tasty and the adults still love it and I have some complexity going on of a kind kids usually don't like (I consider it a success if kids don't like it provided the adults still, since they usually hate complexity; for them I'll make a one-dimensional macaroni and cheese or something which they love), but it's complexity with a "punch"... not a "tickle". :-D

[HighlyVolatile]

I might need to look around my area and see if I can take some culinary courses. It's becoming something I enjoy more than any other art form (I hope I can call it that without sounding too pretentious; my background is visual arts) since there's the instant gratification of seeing people happy and consuming what I made if I do reasonably well.

[TrueConfection]

One of the best chefs I knew was actually a chemist. You can see how those two fields can compliment eachother.

I've been stuck in that cycle you talked about and it's terribly frustrating. That's usually where I end up with the gravy and with all my meddling I trying the consistency and texture.

[TrueConfection]

trying = ruin

[HighlyVolatile]

I might need to start being far more disciplined about precision. I think I might be able to advance far faster if I start measuring more things on the most precise food scales. It doesn't suit my romantic ideas as well; I want to go by feel; I test slightly more as a feeler on those MBTI/Jung tests. It kills some of the romance to me to be so precise, but I would probably advance far more quickly if I embraced some more precision in my cooking.

[TrueConfection]

Nooooo! Don't do it! I cringe at the sight of measuring spoons. 😂

I do sort of measure. If I need a ratio, I will use a regular spoon. I do use a cup for measuring the same way. I have a food scale, but I can only think of once instance when I break that out.

[HighlyVolatile]

I think what I'm seeking might need it -- I gotta go more scientific than romantic! Because I can bust out what I consider hearty and "romantic" (in my way) cuisine... erring on the side of big heart, big fashion, but what astonished me about the French restaurants I was talking about is a level of finesse. It's not a big heart maybe, and more like a science. They drilled it down to something scientific. I romanticize it but maybe it's so precise that my only hope to match that quality will require me to embrace a greater level of precision.

[HighlyVolatile]

* Big taste, sorry, dunno how I put fashion in there... some sort of weird Freudian slip.

[TrueConfection]

First you need to come to a measurement that you like. Say, maybe 4 teaspoons is better than an ounce of something.

[HighlyVolatile]

The teaspoon measurements seem so imprecise to me but that might be a start if I at least measure out teaspoons. I must admit that 90% of the time, I just sprinkle or throw things in there based on feel and taste and if it's not enough, throw more. Maybe just measuring out spoons would at least be a good intermediary step and maybe good enough that way.

[HighlyVolatile]

I also really appreciate your advice and time! Thanks so much!

[TrueConfection]

My use of a spoon is more so I know how much I put in. Half the spoon was salt, so half of that in pepper kinda thing.

Let me know if you take any classes. Is love to make good gravy! 😋

It's been fun!

[Lliam]

I think subtle is the right word. In some cases, delicate.

I'm not a gourmet cook. I don't even know that many herbs and spices.

I add a dash of cinnamon to spaghetti sauce. It imparts a subtle complexity and richness without a hint of cinnamon flavor.

A dash of liquid smoke or some Worcestershire can add subtle flavor to some dishes.

I have no idea about French spice blends like beau monde seasoning.

There are so many herbs and spices. Sage, sorrel, cumin, cardamom, tarragon, celery seed, fennel, chervil, nutmeg, saffron, bay leaf and orange peel.

[EssenceOfLight]

It's bland because of low quality ingredients. Like a German star cook said, 30 years ago 5 star cook used 95% of his time for cooking and 5% to buy ingredients, today it's another way around.
Putting ton of spices in a meat dish that doesn't have meaty taste, doesn't recover magically desired taste of this dish.