Women Got Angry Because Men Started Learning

[ManOnFire]

As many of you know, I’m not into a lot of RedPill or MGTOW, although I think MGTOW is less of a thing nowadays because RedPill is probably just an evolved form of MGTOW. I don’t agree with most of it, especially with its concepts of trying to be a “high value man” in the “top 5%” who should be getting money and going to the gym so he can win over the very women he complained about who only want men with money, status, and hot cars.

But what I can give RedPill credit for is that on a very basic level it really has opened up a lot of guys’ eyes about the stuff that many “modern women” really are doing. And that is honestly what has upset women, being exposed. And to distract from it their solution has been to blame men or call them all kinds of names, even though once upon a time women were openly telling us about their own ways that really is no different from RedPill. They just don’t like that men are now talking about it.

Men were ignorant in the past

For decades males have been taught a lot of sad, weak, pathetic stuff from their parents and society about women: they’re struggling, they need your help, your love and kindness, your commitment, they have traumas, need to be understood, etc. But also lies: women want romance, aren’t interested in casual sex, only want committed relationships, want gentlemen by their side, etc. So a lot of men sadly grew up believing all this, while women themselves were just exploiting those influences given to men for their own benefit:

“Use this guy for money or nice things because I can clearly see he likes me and he was taught to be a gentleman and he’s none the wiser.”

“Sleep with this guy and tell him he’s the father because I know he’ll be one and provide, when it’s the other guy’s kid but he’s long gone, or at least, he’s got no money I can get from him and I’m scared to confront him anyway.”

“Act like a pure lady for him because I can see he thinks we’re all pure and that’s what guys want, and if I act this way he’ll want a relationship with me while I sleep with other guys who are not gentlemen.”

“I can laugh at him, talk down to him, get mad and ignore him if I want because I know he’s attracted and wants to be nice to me, so I know it’ll kill him for me to manipulate him with emotional abuse and separation anxiety.”

Women take pride in bamboozling guys and thinking we're clueless.

A teaching imbalance

Parents and society have failed men by lying to them about the things they only wanted them to hear about women. Portray them as perpetually good, pure, and loving, and to teach men otherwise is “misogynist.” This has been an incredible disservice to men, not teaching them that there are in fact bad sides to women, and a lot of bad ones out there with sneaky ways men should look out for, and it’s the reason why a lot of men grew up getting taken for a fool. Many women know that men are taught to be softies with them, and that is how they have taken advantage of men (I talk more in depth about this in an older Take if any guys are interested: Why Men Keep Being Weak With Women).

Meanwhile parents and society were teaching girls that it’s the men who will use and discard them, take advantage, to be aware of how men are, etc. So an imbalance developed where young men were influenced to view women positively and young women influenced to view men negatively.

The very same mothers who gave head to get ahead, used a guy for money and then ghosted, ran after guys they knew they had no business with, had casual sex all through the years with their bosses, co-workers, campus mates, other women’s husbands, etc., are the same ones who beat it into their sons to be caring gentlemen and that women want love and romance and not casual sex. You can’t get more ironic than that.

Women were already telling us what they do ages ago

It is puzzling to me. About 20 years ago women were still on a feminist wave about freedom and independence, which also meant sexual freedom. All the shows like Sex and the City, Desperate Housewives, Grey’s Anatomy, etc. were depicting women feeling so free and unsuppressed to have casual sex. This resonated greatly with many women who came out about their own sexcapades and how good it felt, shocking men and making them feel castrated - which is exactly the effect women wanted on them.

The nightly news programs like Dateline, Primetime ABC, and 20/20 - with Diane Sawyer and the gals, who were unapologetically feminist and spearheaded a lot of these reports - were literally interviewing groups of women in a room who told their stories of hooking up with co-workers, neighbors, dates, you name it, and how it was such an outlet from their stressful jobs, lives, or troubled marriages. Both shameful and sleazy for an evening news program.

On the internet, women wrote blogs about their flings and methods of attaining casual sex from dating apps or in real life, how it worked for them so effortlessly and why guys were failing at it - or even cheering about how they were getting lucky and guys weren’t. Openly feminist editors and journalists for news blogs and magazines also talked about their own hookup experiences and how women shouldn’t be shamed for it because “if men can do it, why can’t we?”

Basically women wanted to be whores without being called "whores."

Women got angry that men started talking about it

Then some time in the last 10 years virtually all of this started slowly disappearing, the hoes have gone into hiding, and the news is no longer reporting on women being sexually liberated. Fast forward to 2024 and men have been talking about hoe culture and how women use men, etc., literally saying nothing different than what women themselves were telling us 20 years ago, but the women are now trying to say none of that is true.

They’re trying to project on men and say how it’s all in their heads, they’re just listening to RedPill and Andrew Tate and whatnot, they’re being insecure, etc. Women and the media are now trying to save face and cover up everything they were telling us back then, because they're ashamed of it and know that guys know it too. So now you see BS articles and videos about how casual sex hurts women, and how women don’t really like hook up culture. None of that could be further from the truth.

That’s too bad

Deep down women are embarrassed by this truth, especially those who were gung ho about sleeping around and now want to deny it because they know it makes them look bad and not like the unapologetic liberated heroines they hoped to be. So their best argument is to attack men for talking about it, or at least try to be silent and pretend they don’t exist in the hopes that men will feel ignored or be seen as irrelevant. Silence speaks louder than words, and that’s something women still fail to understand. People are listening, even other women, it's just not popular to publicly acknowledge it, and the women who know it's true won't openly say so for fear of being hated by other women.

So while I definitely do not stand by RedPill as a whole, I commend it for opening up many men’s eyes about the slime and grime of “western” female culture. At least someone is telling them the truth, where their mothers failed them and their fathers were passive and said “Listen to your mother.” I hope many, many more young men of this age will grow up to be wiser, and no longer the unknowing softies of the previous decades who had to be made a fool of in order to learn the other sides of women.

[JSkye]

This, right here. This is why I lead with exactly who I am every time. Within an hour or so of talking with me, you get all the cards laid out in the table.

Am I a good girl? I don't follow societal norms, but I have really strong morals.

Am I a bad girl? Many would say so, but not nearly as bad as most people assume I am based on my lifestyle.

What I am is human.

It's very important not to lead men (or women) on and be very open and upfront about what you want in a relationship. I don't play games; I am bold and direct. Anything else is wasting both of our time and potentially hurting either of our feelings through miscommunication.

Am I angry that male culture is changing and men have their eyes open? Not at all. What does bother me about the world right now is this dynamic of men vs. women in so many social arenas. A divided world is not a pleasant one for anyone to live in... and we're already divided enough as it is.

[ManOnFire]

Right. You are being your honest authentic self which is what matters. Even if there are people who don't like/agree with it, it's still far better for you to be real than fake. You get super kudos for that.

[JSkye]

Thank you

[Vegasrunner]

Excellent point. You said what I've been saying for years but w/ a more articulate touch. Reality is for years men have been conned into ignoring womens faults and women have glady taken advantage of that. My position is that it was necessary because women had fewer rights and privileges that men. Today women have the same or more rates than men, so there's no reason to ignore their faults. in my opinion what has frustrated women is the fact that more men can identify their bs. 10-20 years ago only men like you or I would had a ton of experience w/ women were willing to call them on their BS. Today even guys that don't get laid have access to information about Women's behavior, which means women not have to defend that behavior against a wider range of men than I previous times.

[ManOnFire]

You understand it PERFECTLY.

"My position is that it was necessary because women had fewer rights and privileges that men. "
- I think that makes a lot of sense, yeah. People needed to depict men badly because of those reasons, and men were supposed to sit back and accept it to make way for women getting ahead.

[MisterWack]

MGTOW isn’t learning.

I’ve seen the content and it is just feeding into how these narrow minded apes think how the world is against them (women).

These men are big man babies who post videos of women being Karens & manipulative & saying bad takes, etc. then labeling “all women are YUCK!”

It is basically the embodiment of “No Girls Allowed”, never grew up past their “Ewww Cooties” stage.

[blueonblack22]

The whole thing about the “modern feminist” movement is ultimately making women depressed and miserable. And if there ever is going to be any hope for a reversal and change of the eroding relations between men and women in culture the focus needs to be how this negatively impacts women. Because unlike women, men are considered to be expendable in society. We are not special for existing. We are only special for agency i. e. what immediate value we can provide women (money, protection, looks, etc.). But femininity will it itself is valued in society.

As unfair as that double standard is it’s very deeply rooted in evolution. For most of human history women had to rely on men to provide and protect them. Subconsciously they still judge men for that even if they don’t realize it and/or think twice about how unnecessary and unfair it is in modern western culture. It’s biological and most women can’t help it.

With that said women generally don’t think of the long term impacts and ramifications they have on men when they make immediate “emotionally based” decisions. The whole #metoo movement a few years was picture perfect example of that. You want to call out men for bad behaviors? Great I am all for it when you have hard and verified evidence that the man is an abusive dbag.

But then men started losing their jobs and having their entire reputations destroyed (worse case scenario being criminally prosecuted for SA) on unsubstantiated allegations. Some women were well aware of this bullshit but unfortunately the loudest and dumbest ones had an attitude “you can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs”.

So then thoughtful men stopped approaching women. They stopped being forward and direct about what they want romantically and sexually. They stopped taking romantic risks. This in turn is harming women. Most of them want men to approach them and “be confident”. But not surprisingly men are afraid to take risks and for good reasons. Now years later women are starting to realize how they self sabotaged themselves

Anyway the bottom line is society will only change when becomes apparent that women are unhappy with current trends. Men can (often justifiably) complain all they want. But it won’t change until again women realize that “modern” society is making them miserable.

[ManOnFire]

Explained so incredibly well. Especially on SA. But in truth women use it as a weapon when they know deep inside themselves how wrong it is. I wonder what these simple-minded young women of today would feel if their sons experienced the same shit they want to put on men.

[blueonblack22]

And that the entire thing. Young women are being told to embrace their feelings as “their truth” without thinking twice of the long term ramifications of their decisions. And if they turn out to make a decision they later regret society is telling them that “it’s okay sweetie you were upset”.

Men on the other hand are held accountable for our bad decisions. Sure we too often make stupid emotionally based decisions however we don’t get the leeway to say “oh I was upset” as an excuse. We get far fewer second chances for our mistakes.

With that said this is all coming in full circle. Mother Nature intended to bond men and women together for companionship and reproduction. When you disenfranchise and harm men you ultimately HARM women. You see it right now by how frustrated many women are that men aren’t approaching them anymore or being too timid/indirect sexually. Women WANT and expect men to take the lead here. Traditionally the worst that could happen for a (overall decent) guy is he would get rejected and/or publicly embarrassed if a woman turned him down. Now he’s paranoid about much more dire consequences (destroyed reputation, destroyed career, false accusation) so he doesn’t get try anymore. And if he does he (understandably) is very cautious about it.

[blueonblack22]

But again most women don’t want men like that. But men like this didn’t spontaneously come into existence. Modern society and feminism is the number reason this happened. While it’s true that social media, dating apps, porn, etc all contributed to this problem again modern feminism is number one.

I also 100% believe that politics is driving men and women apart. I don’t remember women immediately screaming “Bush supporter!” and having zero interaction with a guy during the Iraq war years ago. But more and more women are becoming very discrimatory over politics. That’s not say it’s a good idea to date someone who is on the polar opposite of you politically. But they won’t even engage with a thoughtful guy who politely disagrees with SOME issue. They are dividing men into two categories here and they do it immediately.

[ManInChains]

Couldn't agree with this more. More people out there need to have this conversation. Both men and women.

[blueonblack22]

@ManInChains since the conversation is always about “what women want” then fine keep the focus on what women want, how they are getting it and how it is making them MISERABLE. Keep the focus on that. That is the ONLY way change will happen in society.

There is a glimmer of hope here. Straight women who rely on virtual attention (social media), sex toys or experimenting with lesbianism are ingesting lots of empty calories. Lots of sugar and no meat.

No straight woman can be forever happy and fulfilled with that lifestyle she VOLUNTARILY choose. But they also left a lot of collateral damage (jaded guys) during this process. Men are getting more and more bitter and screwed too (which contributed to a vicious cycle). But that won’t get better until women FIRST make better decisions. Because we all have to admit they have a lot more power then men when it comes to sex and relationships (when all else is equal with looks, money, etc.).

Mother Nature gave them that advantage to even the playing field given men (used to) have other privileges in society. But again women are the gatekeepers when it comes to romance and sex. But now they abused it and it’s ultimately harmed them.

[ManInChains]

I'll do my best to keep all of that in mind. @blueonblack22

[CB-Raido-Time]

I went my way long before the MGTOW acronym existed I saw the writing on the wall way back then and bad only got many times worse since. After my 3rd short relationship the materialism the cheating it became obvious to me dating and marriage wasn't for me. At age 21 I saw the writing on the wall how obvious the system and society were against men and boys too and it remains so to this day.

Women have been told over and over how they need their independence without even realizing they were letting other lead them by brainwashing which is by far far from being independent. The colleges the media and entertainment all pitched in to do their part with the brainwashing as well as the system itself.

The media. The media did their part by digging up the stories that vilify men and yet used those types of stories to put women on a pedestal and if were a man it's bad if it were a woman it's good she always has a reason a excuse.

Entertainment movies shows etc. Movies and shows follow a script writers imaginary fantasy especially when it fits a agenda. They write their fantasy that never existed into a script then the actors and actress come and the director and cast film the fictitious act on film that goes into sublimely tricking the viewer into believing it's collectively a reality and therefor then men become vilified predators in reality.

Colleges. Colleges teach (brainwash) women into believing they had such a hard go at things in times past while leaving out the fact that no matter how hard women had it in the past men had it many times worse. And that adds up to half truths and half truths are full lies.

The system. The system makes rules and laws oppressing and mistreating men that ruin and breakup families and encourages women to utilize those advantages for their gain (divorce rape). Divorce rape false accusation feed into statistics and those statistics are used yet again by women and the media to vilify men yet again and the cycle continues.

It has finally over the last few years came to a point where men can no longer ignore the obvious any longer and it being literally millions of men saying the same things they can't all be wrong however women still claim they are. It has come to a point to where men have been practically evicted from society can't exist anymore yet women still claim the men are wrong.

[ManInChains]

Its sad that you're correct on everything but women will read this and only argue with you and pretend to understand some things you are saying but at the end of the day she's going to argue and push back against everything you're saying and others are going to come to her aid dnd not yours... Which only adds to the hate women claim to be fighting against

[blueonblack22]

There is a glimmer of hope with things. Modern feminism reached its insane pinnacle with the #metoo movement a few years ago. But now fewer and fewer men are approaching women (you wonder why) and that’s very BAD for women. Very bad. They are very frustrated about it.

Some women are now waking up to self sabotage damage they have done to themselves.

[ManInChains]

Yes, some are waking up to it and many are doubling down on it

[CB-Raido-Time]

@ManInChains In deed that is happening it's Prophesied in both Isaiah 4:1 and Isaiah 13:12.

[Insecure2]

That's quite an elaborate text. I wouldn't say women got angry, because MEN started learning. It's just that we have learnt something ourselves, too. I'm mostly for gender equality and fair treatment conveyed by the feminist movement, but I have to admit that the part about casual sex or sexual liberation of women Has been taken too far. Many women started hooking up with random MEN, trying to show how free they are, but forgetting about the fact that most of US deep down inside are emotional creatures. They realised that those acts were empty, unsatisfying or even futile, but in the process they lost their self-respect, thus their embarrassment and change of heart. IT is a lesson they had to learn through experience. Probably, that is why now they teach their sons to be gentlemen. However, there is another side to IT. They also want them to express respect to women and find a partner in life that will feel the same about them, while also showing the same type of respect. They want them to find worthy, caving, dependable women, and avoid those with a hidden motive. Of course, there are both MEN and women WHO are going to take advantage of others. That is why we should be careful whom we become committed to. IT turns out the situation is the same for both genders.

[ManOnFire]

Close. Women don't like it when men figure out their shittiness, and when we do we become the bad guys for exposing it. That upsets women.

I think one of the most horrific things is that there are many women who learned bad behavior from their slutty mothers too. They picked up habits of disrespecting and using men too after seeing their own moms do it. Utterly sick.

Both genders do take advantage of the other. The difference is that men are taught that women don't do this, and so they get caught off guard and badly burned. People blame men for letting women use and bamboozle them, and they also blame men when women get used and bamboozled by them.

[blueonblack22]

You know @Insecure2 I was raised to be old school chivalrous to women but I was NEVER warned about manipulative/selfish/abusive women growing up. Never. I was taught about respect, consent, etc. However I was NEVER taught about what I should expect from women nor taught that I should demand respect.

Instead both my parents (especially my mother) raised me to kiss women’s asses. Also my school district sex Ed programs almost exclusively demonized men when it came to sexual impropriety and abuse. The idea that a woman would ever take advantage of a man or file a false accusation was never mentioned to me as a kid either.

This naive/respectful attitude is seen by “modern” women as weakness. And there are a lot of women out there like that who feel no shame exploiting it. Not all women of course. But too many. And when men find out the ugly truth do expect them to be happy about it or pretend it doesn’t exist?

Case in point there is plenty of “societal awareness” about shitty abusive men (as there should be). But women want to pretend they are delicate innocent creatures. But we both know many are not.

But having more societal awareness about toxic femininity would take away from the “victim advantage” feminist love to weaponize. So they rather pretend “the woman is never wrong” when in reality she’s wrong more often to she’s right. Especially nowadays in our “modern” society.

[Vegasrunner]

@ManOnFire Exhibit A:
"Women didn't get angry they started learning"
Translation - Equality response, you can't make a negative statement about women w/out adding a positive one.
'I've for fair treatment and gener equality"
Translation - As long as I receive the fair treatment and the equality benifits me.
"Casual sex has been taken to far
Translation : It's more difficult for me to keep the man that I want because he has options and I can't use withholding sex as a weapon against him.
"Teach there sons to be gentlemen"
Translation Ladies we need more simps
Of course their are both men and women who are going to take advantage of others.
Translation : Equality response your post was about improvement of women so I must make the argument that it applies to both so I can make sure blame is laid on men.
These are the type of buzzwords women have used for years as your post pointed out more men have caught on and understand them.

[blueonblack22]

@Vegasrunner her line about "Teach their sons to be gentlemen" really pissed me off too. A bad mother can really screw up her son on this one. She is supposed to be his first role model for a woman in his life. If she brainwashed him to act like a simp and/or he observes her treat his dad like sh*t then he grows up believing women want doormats.

Seriously how often does society and “modern” parents teach young women to be respectful to men? Instead they applaud women who disrespect men whether it’s justified or not. Her “feelings” is “her truth” when it comes to that.

[Vegasrunner]

@blueonblack22 All valid points. Many times it's single mother's who train their sons to treat woman they way they wish they were treated, this is also a reason why single moms have a higher likelihood for raising a criminal or menance to society. You are absolutely correct about what society teaches women about treating men, however you must remember you'll be treated how you allow yourself to be treated.

[blueonblack22]

@Vegasrunner yes. But still it’s easier said then done to recondition yourself when you been brainwashed to act a certain way since your childhood. But ultimately you are correct that it’s on the man to man up.

Still though you don’t see parents (or single parents) trying to set up their daughters for failure. You sure as hell don’t see a father trying to brainwash his daughter to be a doormat for men. Most of the time he raises her to be opposite: tough, independent and picky in dating. Teaches her to demand respect. And all of this was much more justifiable decades ago. But things have changed.

Also want to note we have ganged up on our responses to what she posted. Obviously none of us agree with her (and for good reason) but I would be shocked if she responds at this point or if she even reads through all our comments.

[Insecure2]

@Vegasrunner as a lady I would implore you not to translate words which do need translations. Whatever I wrote was sincere and straightforward, no hidden messages here. Simplification: Don't act like the b***h you criticise.

[blueonblack22]

@Insecure2 he did bring up some valid points. And again the whole thing about “raising your son to be a gentlemen” could easily setup your son for failure.

It would make sense back in 1955 back when most women respected chivalry. But by your own admission that’s changed in “modern” society.

That’s not to say you should raise your son to be an abusive dbag. But are you raising him to look out for dbag women out there would shamelessly exploit his kindness? Are you teaching him to respect himself and what to look after?

[Vegasrunner]

@blueonblack22 All good points. My intention isn't to gang up on anyone, I simply read, recognized and responded. Whether she responds or not isn't really the issue for me, I'm more concerned about providing a POV from the perspective of a man that actually has succes with women. (Not making the argument that you dont)

[Vegasrunner]

@Insecure2 I'm aware that your gender is cause for you to reject translations of your work, however most men don't understand women, to the level I do, and your statements validated the original authors post. Exhibit C "don't act like the b***h you criticize" Translation emotional response. No where in this conversation have I brought up another female, however your hope is by adding in a random female you can deflect from your behavior.

[blueonblack22]

@Insecure2 just remember are arguing concepts that you disagree with. It’s not about arguing to “be right” but its about arguing to figure out WHAT IS right.

I notice that women especially younger women have a very hard time distinguishing the difference with above. There are exceptions. For example Caroline91 often disagree over political issues. But we are patient and respectful with each other. She doesn’t take me arguing and disagreeing with her as “hate”. She knows it isn’t personal. She’s brought up some good points and acknowledges vice versa.

What @Vegasrunner said about you “raising your son to treat women how you wanted to be treated” is accurate.

Sure you don’t want him to be a dbag. Fair enough. But you expect him to be able to naturally figure out the women he’s meeting are decent or not. He’s a man and can’t read minds nor pick up on passive communication the same way you can. And you know damn well there are plenty of women who will take his kindness as weakness and exploit it. Chivalry is not valued by “modern” women like it once was by your own admission. And it’s not the man’s fault if women self-sabotage themselves.

But again as a mother you have a HUGE impact on your son’s expectations with women. If you care about HIS future more then YOUR image and feelings you will teach him about the ugly truth that not all women good, delicate and caring when it comes to good men.

[Anonymous]

great article. I would just like to change your stance on the definition of RedPill and MGTOW (not saying these are your words directly)

RedPill isn't a philosophy or ideology but more akin to a praexology

it's more similar to a science textbook than an instruction manual

In the RedPill textbook it'll contain facts and data such as marriage/divorce stats e. g. 50% of marriages end in divorce, economic data e. g. 80% of consumer debt belongs to women etc. the textbook may even include historical events, evolutionary psychology and other sciences within it

it'll also contain news and lived experiences of false rape accusations, paternity fraud, female teachers sleeping with their male students, sometimes that isn't even covered by the mainstream media but it's really a collection of facts and events

how someone chooses to use this science textbook is up to them and that's where the different factions come in. every man will have a different conclusion but the facts are still facts and remain true

MGTOW like MRAs and PUAs are separate factions within the manosphere who have their own instruction manual which is derived from the RedPill textbook

the RedPill doesn't come from just it's members but can be gathered by university studies, statistics organizations, video footage, laws that have been passed etc. stats like military casualties being 95% men didn't come from the RedPill but the RedPill can borrow that stat

maybe that'll clear things up a bit more

[TheRealPepperPotts]

I can see what you're saying.

My thought is that at the beginning and middle of the last century, we had two world wars that devastated the population of men. Many older men and fathers who could have influenced their sons in positive ways died and didn't have the opportunity to pass down family values and heritage to their sons. Many women were compelled to remarry to lesser quality men, breaking up the legacy.

The importance of vertically oriented relationships cannot be overstated where children are concerned. What I mean by that is that our entire society flipped from being generationally, family-oriented to being peer-oriented, between army camps, schools, and the industrial revolution. Everything in society is now organized by age rather than family or community. This lack of older influence and wisdom and younger energy and vision has dramatically changed our culture. And it only took a hundred years.

Now, it's being broken down even further into various political and social camps, but with no legal or blood commitment. The defining aspect of the post-modern family, if you want to call it that, is conformity and agreement.

My point with all that is to agree that yes, there is a major problem. But I think it's bigger than even what you described. I'm not saying women today don't have serious issues. I am just trying to unpack why. Why did the mothers raise their sons that way? Why are women acting out like this? Why, in a society with mostly white males in office, is the breakdown so dramatic? I'm thinking out loud here...

[ManOnFire]

So I think ultimately the problem has probably been the feminist movement. That is what altered women into what they are today. Feminism taught women to prioritize sexual activity and to make men feel like they need to bow down to women.

In turn, men saw the pressures of feminism, and overcompensated for it by trying hard to please women and put them on a pedestal. Hence how we became a society of being lighter on women than men, even to the point of things like making women's car insurance cheaper than men's because "women are safer drivers." That really does not matter when a woman makes the same foolish mistake on the road as a man. The gender is different, but the action is the same.

So we became a culture that HAD to say only good things about women and depict them as only good, and this was taught to young men as well, and is how so many grew up finding out the hard way that women are not always good.

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

@ManOnFire I think your description of reality is really partial, and I probably can't do better at impartiality, since I'm invested. Yet, I'm gonna try. Woman on a pedestal is a cultural thing since centuries. Probably even anterior to middle-age chivalry rules of conduct, which established this view on Woman very clearly. It's nothing new.

Feminism is a reaction force to traditional values, just like any social force it is reacting to something impeding liberty in a society. What men are doing in reaction to feminism is complex, some are going the Manosphere way as it is a logical reaction force, antagonism to feminism in this system. Some are going within the flow of progressive, but everyone is looking for a stance, accidentally or purposefully, that is hard to define. Hard to define because we live in times where dice are still rolling, times where masculinity and feminity are being challenged in what they represent

[ManInChains]

Agree with @ManOnFire

[ManOnFire]

@Maybe_Maybe_not Woman on a pedestal IS a cultural thing since centuries. But it doesn’t make it right. Even the Bible talks about not giving your strength to women, but men have failed at this since the beginning of time.

Most men don’t seem to understand - or learn - that worshipping women and putting them on high ends up hurting men in the end, and benefitting women.

[TheRealPepperPotts]

@ManOnFire I know this is a very sensitive topic, so I'm treading lightly here. But I'm curious what you think. There is kind of a spectrum with feminism, and I think that there are some aspects of the original movement that many men would find reasonable, like the ability to vote, own property, pursue higher education, etc.

The feminism that is presented today, where women say horrible, cruel and degrading things about men and sleep around, is kind of a cult. It's just as bad as misogyny. That is the feminism I think of when most guys talk about it. It's like an extreme version of something more mainstream. I think defining what is meant by feminism is helpful.

I see feminism today as a kind of fringe extremism. It's become this warped excuse to be irresponsible and blame men for whatever goes wrong. I view MGTOW as a sort of male version of post-modern feminism, and just as unhealthy. But what's interesting is that MGTOW and post-modern feminism are two sides of the same coin. Both blame the other for problems. Both take extreme positions. Both are reactionary. It's like anything else; given enough time, money and corruption, even the purest of movements can become distorted.

[ManOnFire]

@TheRealPepperPotts How you described feminism in your second paragraph is exactly what is the problem with the world, yes. And I do mean world, because American feminism as we know it is what has poisoned other societies, since the rest of the world often follows after America.

Most men of today do not care about women voting, owning property, etc. It's a non-issue for men. But feminists purposely stay stuck in the 1800s and think they can apply that same era to today's world. They are also 10x more obsessed with sexual assault than men are and use it as a weapon of making all men out to be predators.

In today's world and what it stands for, feminism really is a very wicked "movement."

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

Sadly, I don't have enough intel on the shape of feminism in US but when I see you both talking about it, I can see only two possibilities. Either US feminism is as extreme as you both name it, either you both are focusing on a minority that is extremist.

Saying that because I don't see this extremism at all in my location, France. I see standard feminism instead, else I couldn't even engage with the movement at all. So I really wonder what's happening

[TheRealPepperPotts]

@Maybe_Maybe_not That actually makes a lot of sense. I was just reading a book about Provence and the differences in French culture vs. American culture. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand, French communities tend to be very tight-knit and supportive. There is a lot of community support for children with the "creche" system, which has to be applied for well in advance, from what I read. I'm not sure if that is the entire country, or simply regional, though.

The reason this is relevant is that the supportive community and culture means no one is carrying the full burden of life alone. In the US, we have a tendency to be very individualistic, strong and independent and all that. But without community, the potential for abuses of power and lack of accountability in relationships and society is a greater threat. The result is extreme reactions like post-modern feminism and MGTOW, to name just a couple.

Personally, I think the behaviors of the adherents are more of an issue than some of the actual concepts, to be frank. Social media also tends to encourage viral type behaviors, which cloud people's perspective of reality. If one influencer with 100 thousand followers makes a statement, each of those followers has the potential to reinforce and propagate that idea, regardless of it's actual value. The more that idea is viewed and repeated, the more "true" it seems, even if it isn't based on anything except an opinion. It's human mirroring gone wrong. Without community, there's nothing to offer a counterbalance to that idea or extreme.

Sorry, not trying to go too deep here. I'm just fascinated by these kinds of issues and why people do the things that they do.

[ManOnFire]

@Maybe_Maybe_not Wow, you're not even American lmfao. So let me clue you in: early feminism was sincerely about rights for women, but the dark ugly truth even about those feminists is that they were still highly racist and only wanted rights for WHITE women. These white feminists didn't even want their own black women maids to be part of the suffragist march in the 1920s, so they had them march in the back.

Fast forward to the 1960s and to now, and "feminism" is nothing but a trademark for angry white women hungry for casual sex and power over men. They care nothing about the real values of being a woman, and they are more 'misogynist' than anyone else, hating women who don't agree with or support them. So they've poisoned our young women with all that foolishness and have destroyed the family unit. It is a very real thing and not just based on "a minority that is extremist."

[TheRealPepperPotts]

@Maybe_Maybe_not What @ManOnFire said. ^ :D

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

Well, the good side here is that there is an elaboration running in this article, I'm not used to elaboration when presented with manosphere, especially not on GaG. It's something I'd like to mention.

Now this whole text embarks us on somewhat wrong lead because, and that's for @blueonblack22 too: This whole problem could narrow to a single point really:

Idealism and essentialism in the same boat.

When this problematic duet is addressed early on by tutors or enviro, then any kid, girl, boy can understand that we're all at risk to view people for what they are not. When we trust the illusion that Woman is Z, Y, X or Man is B, C, D, as an essence, a by default then... This illusion replaces the diversity that is reality, everyone gets mentally screwed, men and women alike. Because then no one sees the reality of individuals anymore, we focus on projections, images of people instead of people, blind and conditioned all along.

Now yes, many, too many things will prevent this awareness to raise because society, market, religion, entertainment, culture, parents, so many factors could make us delusional about the world, about people.

Amusingly, one of the trends fighting against essentialist philosophy is feminism. And that's exactly why I trust educated feminism here, because the more it shatters the essences we are being programmed to see, the more people could feel the reality of genders, of individuals, of how unique they all are, when they are not too much programmed already.

[ManOnFire]

Dude, I really have no idea exactly what you're trying to say or how my post sends people on a wrong lead. If you're basically saying "both men and women" have been programmed to look at each other in an unrealistic light, that would be true, except I'm writing about how damaging this has been for men. If I wanted to cover what "both men and women" experience, I would've written that. Instead I wrote about the disservice to men because it is the least noticed, least discussed thing out there, and men - especially young ones - need the truth.

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

Yeah well, I don't see a reason to separate men and women for a problem that concern them both simultaneously, especially when they are influencing each other constantly, you know

[ManOnFire]

What women have been taught about men benefits them. What men have been taught about women doesn't benefit them. That is the message.

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

I don't see any tool to measure what you are measuring, all I can see is confusion for both genders

[JSkye]

This confusion is exactly why I raise my children to be as gender-blind as possible.

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

@JSkye You are being cheeky with the concept of confusion, but I love that haha

[Anonymous]

What "I'm angry about," is not this. It's the over complication of the basics of the dating world and relationships by these and many other groups with whatever names. You don't need an 18 page manifesto and an online blog to know that some wo/men with a million red flags should be avoided. The same crappy men/women who existed back then in the age of our mothers and fathers, exist today, because that's life. Some people really just suck and there is nothing you can do about it. People have this ripe delusion that this is some modern problem that has just come to be. Nope. It's just that now people have the internet and like to yack on about it until the topic is stale and crusty.

Know your worth. If the person you are with is treating you like crap, leave that and either be by yourself or find someone who actually appreciates you. You don't need to join some man or woman hating group to figure that out, do you? Really? These people just really need to get over this "the world is out to get me" logic because it pigeon holes them into a tiny box where it consumes there mind and they actually are missing opportunities to prosper or to be with someone new. I've known one MGTOW guy in my life and he's actually happy not because he's screaming from the rooftops how terrible women are, but he's literally out there in the world, traveling, and living his best life, by himself. I'm not angry he's happy or has figured out that he feels he doesn't need a woman in his life for that. Whoever you are, you accept the love you think you deserve. Great quote, because it's true.

[ManOnFire]

Although you make a few good points, it doesn't entirely have to do with what I was saying. It's easy to make a blanket point that both genders are shitty, but it's not that simple from my perspective in this Take.

My point is that men have been taught to be blind to women's badness - which is definitely what women have wanted, therefore they've ended up being deceived or burned by these women because their parents and society didn't teach them as males to look out for that stuff. This is more complex than just saying both men and women are shitty and have hurt each other. Fast forward to today and we now have RedPill telling guys all the things that their parents failed to.

Women WANT men to be ignorant of their slime and dirt, and they want men feeling like they should struggle with relationships and sex and to feel like we are supposed to be at women's mercy for these things. So now that men are finding out about their grime, women are upset and ready to say men are the problem.

[Opinion Owner]

Is this one of those fantasizes where you try to tell me men are absolutely innocent and women are the only things bringing down society and relationships because I have a whole list of female friends who have been physically abused, cheated on, used for sex, and everything else under the sun, but according to the yarn you seem to be spinning, they and all women just have it on easy street because they were warned that men are the problem early on in life? What? At what point do you suggest men take responsibility for being in these relationships in the same way women are told all the time, why do you stay with THAT guy who treats you like that? Sound familiar? It should.

[ManOnFire]

So I can see you are still trying to shift the attention AWAY from women needing to own up to their shittiness with men. Get emotional, hand out white-feminist cries, throw whatever you want my way, it won't change my mind or the truth.

[Vegasrunner]

@ManOnFire Exhibit B "what am I angry about not this"
Translation: Emotional response - I didn't read your entire post I stopped when it made me feel bad and decided to response w/ nothing that has to do w/ what you brought up.

[ManOnFire]

@Vegasrunner That is exactly what I was thinking when I first read her comment. I don't think she read it either because she missed a lot of points.

[Vegasrunner]

@ManOnFire A common deflection tactic and it validates the fact that you made a strong point.

[ManInChains]

At least those who follow the mgtow lifestyle can see how women manipulate them and use the sociatal expectations for men to their own benefit. How come no one is doing anything about it? And those who do try to do something about it are shot down or protested against by feminists? Is it because people care more about the issues of women in society? Is it because when someone attempts to shed light on men's issues, they're attacked for being an incel or a misogynist? So they back down because there's no way to combat that? Well, now there is a way to combat it. Vote Trump in November

[ManInChains]

by the way, thank you for bringing this up.

[ManOnFire]

We will part ways on Trump lol, but yes "Is it because people care more about the issues of women in society?" is your answer. We are taught that women are the most helpless and endangered and that they need attention and support more than men.

[ManInChains]

Exactly, we are taught that women are the most helpless and endangered and that they need all of the attention and support more than men, yet there are more women alive today compared to men at least in the united states of America and no one seems to care. Men dying sooner is just the norm in a place where women are cared about more than men and even the men don't care otherwise they're considered gay. Why are we making life for men so depressing and difficult to change while making life for women so easy?

[ManInChains]

I only mention Trump because if you're for men to prosper in any way you're considered a right wing extremist who hates women and must be voting for Trump.

[ManOnFire]

"yet there are more women alive today compared to men at least in the united states of America and no one seems to care."
- That is a really good point.

[PeachyPie93]

The reason why this movement is bad is not because men are learning about trash woman it is bad because men are starting to treat good woman the same as the trash ones. They are generalizing all woman and acting like we all have 50+ body counts or they don't have to be nice to you cuz "I don't want to fuck you". Both genders are getting out of control, reason being way too many people believe the shit on TikTok/youtube which is pinning both genders against each other and generalizing everything. You almost can't date anymore because most guys online are redpilled and retarded. If you talk to people who aren't online much it is much different but it is hard to meet people in normal life since most people are plugged in lol.

[ManInChains]

How can men tell the difference between the type of women who wants to use him for his money or falsely accuse him and destroy his life and reputation apart from those who genuinely care?

[PeachyPie93]

@ManInChains You would have to hangout/talk and get to know her. Same way you get to know anyone. And usually people have red flags that are easy to see so you can move on if they aren't for you. Woman who want you just for your money usually talk about money often or look a certain way, want certain things, have fake nails, fake lashes, fake lips, etc, look high maintenance. The ones who want to destroy you are a little harder to notice sometimes.. but that is really where you have to know the person before you wanna bring them to your bed.
That is one thing I hate right now too.. a lot of guys are saying all chicks want your money when a lot of guys saying that don't even have much, it's stupid.

[ManInChains]

And how do you expect a guy to actually meet women these days? I'm attempting to start a Bible study and there are 0 women only 2 men who want to join. And I met a girl on a dating app and talked for two days before she said she didn't trust anyone she met online and didn't even want to meet in person to get to know each other.

[ManInChains]

So it's not for lack of men trying. It's the women

[PeachyPie93]

@ManInChains No idea.. All I know is I would not be joining a bible study it sounds dull asf.

[ManInChains]

That's because I'm looking for Christian women who are more likely not to be bitches like most women out there

[ManOnFire]

@PeachyPie93 In some sense I can't entirely blame men for thinking the good women are also trash. Reason being that a lot of women pretend to be good girls, and they know this is an easy way to deceive men because men expect women to be good, from what they're taught. So then a lot of these pretenders turn out to be trash just like the other outwardly trash women.

"a lot of guys are saying all chicks want your money when a lot of guys saying that don't even have much, it's stupid."
- That is exactly why they're saying it. Because they've been rejected by women who knew they didn't have a lot of money. Not because they had it.

[PeachyPie93]

@ManInChains Christian woman tend to be huge bitches ngl lol.. I am catholic I just ain't into church, bible reading and all that religious "stuff". But good luck, hope you find someone you like, I know it's hard out there.

[PeachyPie93]

I suppose that is true.. I guess we will have to give up dating until these losers of today wear themselves down.

Yeah I get that stance.. though it is again writing off normal woman... but I have talked to guys not wanting to get married and it is because they will have to pay half in divorce.. but like the guy has nothing to take so it's like I would be coming into the marriage with more than you, but you don't want to get married because I might take half of your fictional belongings lol.

[ManInChains]

They're probably considered huge bitches to you because they know you have a negative attitude towards Christian men and Christianity in general

[ManOnFire]

@ManInChains Well, she is right on that, and I too am a Christian. A lot of so-called Christian women are terrible, especially the evangelical ones. They are often fake and pretend being so holy while judging others. They are often the same ones who look down on people for using cuss words or having sexual sin, meanwhile they're sleeping with a man in the church or their boss at work.

[ManInChains]

I know there are women who claim to be Christian who aren't actual Christians. I've dealt with one already. @ManOnFire

[PeachyPie93]

@ManInChains LOL I don't really have any opinion on Christians in general.. I just don't like how most Christians ostracize everyone and go in their groups and act better. When everybody sins even the best Christians, since we are not Jesus.. so you shouldn't pretend like you are lol.

[ManInChains]

Good thing we agree on that

[ManOnFire]

@PeachyPie93 Yep. It's why I don't go to church.

[PeachyPie93]

Same here, plus the fact many priests are questionable and the pope protects molesters so its like.. can anyone trust you all? lol

[JSkye]

@PeachyPie93 Perhaps the ironic twist is that most real Christian women wind up leaving the church 🤔

[Summeroflove]

This genuinely depends on the men and women out there but I will say so called traditional women can be the WORST of them all.

Find a quality woman because there are those out there if you’re a quality man. But men think fucking around and stuff they’re gonna find this virgin and irs never going to happen.

Yes there are many bad women out there but men who just hate women for how they’re born will never find a decent woman. It’s like how women who hate men never find a decent man. Because anybody with self respect doesn’t want that.

Don’t believe the lie that all women are innocent because they are NOT….. But don’t go to the other extreme either or saying they’re all whores because they aren’t. If all someone can find is a whore it says more about him then all women

[Pohjolan]

To be fair hoeflation is a thing and our grandparents were dealing with a different society.

I do wonder if at some point there will be a opposite trend where young women no longer want to be shallow sluts as form of rebelling against old culture?

[ManOnFire]

I wonder the same thing.

[RavVid]

I did start saying a while if men and woman understood each other then the birth rate will plummet. We are post understanding now.

[ManOnFire]

Very interesting.

[Peridot25]

To be honest, I’m ready to die single. I’ve never been in a relationship before, but I think I’ll be doing men a favor if I never engage with them.
If a man was ever interested in me, I’ll reject him immediately.
I’m trying to keep my distance as much as I can. I don’t really go out so there’s no need for men to worry.

[ManOnFire]

Why would you reject a man who shows interest?

[Peridot25]

Since I’m a Western woman, wouldn’t it be for the best?

[Peridot25]

I mean…. think about it. Me, a western woman, ends up with a man. What do you think is going to happen?

[ManOnFire]

You will divorce him after you couldn't change him.

[Peridot25]

Exactly! So why not reject someone that’s interested?

[Peridot25]

So, really. If you think about it, I’m doing men a favor. Plus, I don’t really go out in public. I just work and stay home.

[LiamJHayden]

Those at the fringes who relied entirely upon manipulation probably are not happy.

[ManOnFire]

Very true. Those same women are the ones you hear about now talking about coming out of "post narcissist" relationships. After playing men with their manipulation games, it then happens to them and they're ready to cry about it.

[DextroShade]

As much as people hate on Andrew Tate he saved the lives of countless men.

[ManOnFire]

Don't know about THAT lol

[hahahmm]

I never followed him or even listened to more of a soundbite of his. He has some good ideas but where he went wrong was thinking it's the year 1930 or 1830 and that if a woman says, "yes I want to be your servant!" it means you aren't legally on the hook when she changes her mind 5-10 years later and cries rape. You're going to be up the creek as he's finding out. One woman was always enough for me, luckily. Lot less trouble.

[hahahmm]

Also think they (the system) is making an example of him. The system doesn't want men to be strong/their own boss. They want men to be sheep because sheep never do a revolution over anything. They just pay taxes - no matter how high - and smile.

[Anonymous]

No women are always angry. Some of them are angry men just exist. Women are angry, can’t see how men can be so happy just being simple.

[strateguy632]

Good examples

[Anonymous]

This question is an example of sjw. There is an Asian, a black and an obese person in the photographer.

[tas_16x]

Couldn't have said it better