Going off the question and your update. There is nothing wrong with this. There is nothing wrong with wanting to better yourself and make yourself a more valuable woman be it through education, career, etc. There is nothing wrong with that.
Both sides should bring things to the table in the relationship. What this comes down to is a difference of what men and women value in a relationship. So let's break this down to the bottom line of what this tends to come down to because it is based around traditional roles.
Men value women that support them, trust them to lead and not get combative in decisions or every decision he tries to make on a personal level or for them as a means to be heard or just being difficult. They were taught that they were the breadwinners and had to bring home the money to support the family, be the rock of the relationship and a strong figure that cannot be shaken or destroyed because if that fails, everything around them falls apart. While he goes to work and earns to provide the stability, he trusts his wife to run the house while he is gone and raise the kids in his absence and he picks up to help when he comes home after dealing with other men and possibly an asshole boss that makes his life hell. He deals with that for his family and the last thing he wants to come home to is a combative wife squawking at him or getting snippy and angry over something. He deals with that at work, he does not come home to deal with that there as well. Not his house, not his sanctuary that should be filled with the people he loves, provides for and merely wants respect and thanks for the things he deals with to keep them going. He wants to come home to a loving and nurturing wife that wants to help him relieve the stress with a nice meal, a beer, a hug maybe a kiss and then they deal with their kids and remaining housework together after he gets a little time to take a load off.
A woman was told they were to be the homebody and the one who runs the house. They make sure it is clean, kids are dressed and ready for school and have lunches packed for the day and have everything they need in terms of a school day and whatever else they have be it sports or extra curricular activities, corrections of bad behavior, etc. A nurturing role that in theory should be instinctive, not something that should be earned or unlocked on the daily to make these things happen. She does it because she wants to help her man and show him she cares. That is supposed to be the true feminine, which is also inclusive of submission. I will touch on this word here too shortly because I feel this word is triggering for a lot of people.
Just to be clear. Submission does NOT mean a mindless slave or that you are lesser than the other. It means that you have the ability to relax and trust your partner to handle the particular situations that arise because you TRUST them, if you don't trust them that is when the friction comes into play.
Now that we have established the original traditional views let's transition to the more modern day view of how this is. We have been exposed to terms like high value, equality, independent, etc. Feminism came into play and has been evolving and changing what makes a woman a high value one or one who is equal to a man. Women now can vote, work, seek higher education, sleep with whomever they desire, own their own homes, have children without a man to help them raise it. Women have taken full advantage of what they did not have the privilege of over 100 years back, understandable, but ultimately it has also created a power dynamic shift to a degree.
Although women have more opportunities than ever before, this has also left men in the position of two options. Either seek to be better than their female counterparts (those that do are the top tier men) or they opt to find women that will go with the tradition that they were taught to believe.
Men now see these women that can do what they were expected to do in a relationship and if they either don't get on par with them or get above them, they are not only invisible, but tend to be seen as low quality by women they try to court. Enter the "what the fuck do you bring to the table?" Question. This puts men into a constant competitive belief that they now have to compete with men at work to be the best and be top earner and when they come home now to the woman in their life. They now have to be "on their game" everywhere they go and with everything they do. Any slip up leads to loss of control either in work or at home and it will eat them alive from the inside out.
Women will want the best man they can obtain. If he is their supposed equal or he will have to be a little better than her. Because now they are high value, their man needs to be high value as well. "I have a PhD, he has a Masters... hmm, is he going to go for a PhD? If not, is there a man out there more ambitious out there than him or me for that matter? Let's find out!"
Now women can say this is glaring insecurity on a man's end and I would be willing to agree to an extent, but then women in society need to know if they desire a man, he needs to have a purpose in their life. If he doesn't have that he will be resentful, feel useless and unhappy. I will continue my reply here in follow ups since I still have more to add.
Men now need insanely high standards when it comes to being good enough for women to not just be given a shot but longterm potential. The more he has the better. The less, well, he is right fucked.
This next bit here will go to what I feel each opposite see when it comes to what the opposite gender values in today's dating and longterm standards.
Women that want to better themselves to increase their value like you mentioned here need to understand that your career, education, travel aspirations and being a Boss BAE is not what brings value to us at our core. It brings something more materialistic on our end with additional income and activities to do when we have a breather, and if it makes you happy on an individual level, we can be happy for you too, cool. Now part of me believes women that pursue all of this to be high quality and bring something to the relationship outside of having this as a personal identity and independence, they don't want to be seen as boring, lazy, or deadweight. They want to show they can pull their weight and being additional value to the relationship outside of the established traditional expectations that were ingrained in us for so long. That they can do all of this and still choose to be with us despite it as a way of acknowledgment.
Now with men, our biggest fear and issue with women voicing this language of, "I am strong! I am independent! I don't need a man" we immediately associate that with the militant feminists that give any women who say these words bad name by proxy. Now couple this on top of our expectations of relationships that were with us forever in a day and on a core and instinctual level, it is added frustration. We now essentially have to level up daily until the day we die to stay ahead of fellow competition as well as obtain acknowledgment and respect from everyone to include fellow men, lovers, friends, and family. Falling short is unacceptable in society's eyes.
So if we see a woman of the Boss BAE mindset we pursue, we are driven by our innate desire to be the protector and provider. We will shoot our shot and if we meet the requirements to get our foot in the door we learn more about them and we see all that they can do and accomplish, it leads to turmoil in some of us because now we just think, "well, I don't have any of this. I don't have that education level, much less desire to pursue it, and if she realizes I don't do a fraction of what she does, she will jump to the next best guy."
Because at the end of the day, a lot of women subconsciously resent men they perceive weak or inferior or if they become the leader of the relationship. They see him as deadweight, unambitious, not good enough. So they move to a guy that meets their standard or desire to work for that brings out the submission I mentioned earlier.
Now, I know I will get flak for what I have said here, but I am trying to be open minded all the while leave the floor open to healthy discussion between all of us on the thread here. I hope my explanation reached both sides and at least brought out some mutual understanding and I am sure my words resonated with some men here as well.
Ladies, if you desire to go down the road of the Boss BAE, there is nothing wrong with that. But if you desire a man, love men, or want a family because there are some on this site that are currently in this lifestyle and living it. You need to let your voices be heard and let society know that if you want to be the breadwinners and will not resent men for making less than you or not being able to do what you can, a couple of things need to happen.
1.) Be more vocal to women who demonize us or do exactly what I listed by presenting us for not being better at the end of the day because of personal standards.
2.) You need to let men know that you will still love them and support them regardless if they make less and won't hold it over their head. Consistently do it until it becomes a norm.
3.) You need to make men feel valued and loved and desired in your relationship and that he has purpose in the relationship by doing things you can't do or where you struggle. It all comes down to balance.
You are 100% right it's in its own way the meaning of life. When we are 2 years old we want to get up and walk we don't care how many times we fall down but we will keep getting up and keep walking until we get it that's one of the life's first big experiences and if you think about it everything in life is an experience the more you experience the more you understand it and more you understand it the better you are with it having that knowledge makes you keep growing and growing the more you keep growing and involving and becoming one with yourself and then you can become one with others you become one with others you become one with this universe you have no more drama you have no more judgment you have no more anger nothing can phase you because you know that in order to keep going for it and be the best you can be you have to stay away from the drama the judgment you have to let all opinions go it is what it is people who they are and when you have that frame of mind everything is pure everything is good you have nothing dark hanging over your head you're in the light when you can do this you increase your value no matter what you do it's a beautiful thing
So if you want to bring more to the table than just your body why don't you?
How we carry ourselves is how we are perceived. If you are dressing in a provocative manner then of course your body is going to be what is put on display if you are dressing in a manner that is flattering to your body yet not revealing and you are holding intelligent conversations that are meaningful and offer a different point of view then your intelligence is what you will be noticed for.
We are our best asset and our worst critic so our value as viewed by other people is is solely based on our own actions and behaviors.
If you are a woman who pays your own bills, takes care of her own emergencies and obstacles and you feel like your experience is the only experience that you'll ever need then you are what is considered closed-minded. In which case men and women will shut out anything that you feel you have to add to a conversation and will judge you based on your appearance therefore your body will be the only thing that you are bringing to the table.
I fully support striving to I’ll give in whatever way gives you leave.
I think people under appreciate the indict of fulfilling your gpa is has on your attitude as a person & towards others. Whether someone is specifically impressed by your accomplishments or happy with the results of you being a more well rounded competent supportive positive partner, it all is connected. We are not just empty or full boxes, everything we do and do not do, the joy or sorrow, confidence or Shame we experience, affects everyone we encounter. Every human event is relational. Go for it 💜
@Jamie05rhs
Haha nice!! 🥳
You all are amazing
Lol. Thank you thank you 🤓🥰
Opinion
17Opinion
There’s nothing wrong with wanting to bring other things to a relationship; women bring lots to relationships. The problem is that, in a healthy relationship, you can’t assume that your value will go up to men if you are trying to also bring things he brings to the relationship. Men are looking for other things in women.
Oh, I see what you're saying. Many times, guys in that position will still want to feel like the dominant person in the relationship though; domestic abuse incidents go up in relationships where the woman outearns the man. He'll want to feel like he's in control, which can lead to some scary stuff. Men just don't see women as providers, plain and simple. There's just something about it that doesn't sit well with a lot of men.
You can provide in ways other than financial. And I dont like the term “provider”. As a childless couple, were equal and provide for ourselves but put our money together towards things we both want. But with kids, i see it as both parents responsibility to provide for the kids. I also dont see why “dominance” is a thing men think they need to be or have over women. Just a lot of scary and creepy stuff that In not gonna get into
You're also pretty young, so that "real" relationship dynamic stuff is probably outside of your experience at this point. I can speak from personal experience here, and everyone I've spoken with about this has agreed; there's something that changes in your brain during mid-late twenties that just kinda reorients your entire life. Like sometime around 25-27 years old, for me it was a little after my 26th birthday, you're just gonna wake up one day and your body is just gonna "nope" out of a bunch of shit you used to be perfectly fine doing. Everything from drinking heavy to the way you see the opposite sex.
I actually started thinking this way when I turned 23. I used to want a million kids and be married by 18 with a husband that worked while I stayed home. I feel like something in my brain changed at this age that made me wakeup and realize a ton of things. My views at 16-21 are 100% than they are now. Gender roles are a social construct. Everyone is different. I feel more fulfilled by my accomplishments (education, career, things of the like) and the thought of the traditional female role makes me sick. Im not stupid and I know most guys aren’t attracted to a woman like me but thats fine.
Thriving for intelligence and knowledge and being ambitious is generally not a bad thing in my view but it´s something egoistic in a way that it´s something it´s done foremost for oneself and not for anybody else.
The problem I see arise that it could a point where you´re highly educated but still single because you can´t find a partner that reaches your level. Because while you´re reaching for greatness so to say your expectations also rise.
And as guys are less likely to date up as guys that do so are often viewed as weak or losers. It can happen that guys take your thrive for improvement the wrong way.
So I would take a close at what kind of improvements of your own life you wanna do because not all advanced training automatically increases your value from a guy´s point of view. You should therefore choose your advanced education maybe from imaging yourself already being in a relationship what´s something you want to learn until then and what do you want to learn to bring as a benefit to the relationship? Because guys generally don´t date women for the money they bring in but the vibes/the atmosphere or ideas and different views on the world women have.
Does that mean that a woman should be dumb or shouldn´t want to be her best? No but it could be overdone to an extreme that turns her in a workoholic and that´s not attractive to anyone.
The question is... value to whom? Bear in mind what makes a woman valuable to a man are not the same things that make a man valuable to a woman. I think a lot of women today lose sight of that fact.
It's great that you wish to bring more value to the dating/relationship table than a body, but assuming you are a heterosexual woman who is interested in dating/marrying a good man, you should be sure you understand what it is that makes you valuable to the type of man you are interested in.
Most likely she wants a man for whom things she finds valuable are also things he finds valuable. There are absolutely men who care about a womens education spiritual journey life goals etc but also the fact there are things that make people feel better about themselves is a huge qualifier of attraction. If she invests tine in stuff that make her feel more well rounded she will be more at peace and whomever she dates will feel the result. It all adds up directly or indirectly. So there’s never a waste. Even a guy who doesn’t care specifically in the details would benefit in her accomplishing her goals bc she will be positive force in the relationship. It’s hard to be supportive and open, when you feel dragged down abs defensive. 🙂
From the man that I have spoken with besides them, wanting peace, they wish to have a good conversation with a woman will how can I hold a good conversation if I’m uneducated or I don’t understand what’s going on entertainment, wise or political wise how can I have a good conversation if I’ve never been to certain places or understand things that comes with reading and it having my own adventures in addition to doing them with you and ass
Yea, we don't care about that. There's nothing wrong with being educated (you can be overeducated, like myself- but women are more arrogant about it), but you can't expect men to value the things about you that you want them to value you for.
Men wish you would value us for how many chairs we could bring up the stairs as a kid, but literally no woman gives af. By that same token, we don't care about your job, you degree, or your designer purse collection. If you're beautiful, young, feminine, and are nice to us we'll like you.
Lot of women increase their value in THEIR OWN MIND and the minds of other women. But then they get upset when they find out that to men what they did does not increase her value. And you know that has been a topic of discussion.
You could do 100% of the stuff a man does (historically) and still have a hard time getting and/or keeping a dude if you don't actually have what he values.
That’s the point I’m not doing what a man does I’m doing what make me a better person overall. If a man doesn’t like there’s another man that’s will to love me for becoming better.
You wrote in your update: "The point that I’m trying to make is I wish to bring more to the dating/relationship table than a body". You did not name anything that a guy values that's tangible/you doing something. Guys don't look to a woman to be the 'table'. Unless he's a loser like a drug addict/gambler without a pot to piss in. That kind of guy wants a woman to take care of him.
From the man that I have spoken with besides them, wanting peace, they wish to have a good conversation with a woman will how can I hold a good conversation if I’m uneducated or I don’t understand what’s going on entertainment, wise or political wise how can I have a good conversation if I’ve never been to certain places or understand things that comes with reading and it having my own adventures in addition to doing them with you and ass
There’s absolutely nothing wrong w that but most men honestly don’t care about that sort of things when it comes to finding a partner. Most men don’t care about how much you make, your degree, etc. Usually it’s women who care about that stuff. What I’m saying is chances are those traits or accomplishments aren’t really going to make you more desirable to a man.
I can’t imagine anybody would argue with that. When you make yourself more valuable, more valuable men become interested. I think you will find more high value men wanting a partnership of equals than those willing to continue working to be high value but be in second place. At that point either the relationship or the work ethic will suffer.
There is something wrong with everything, and nothing wrong with anything.
That is the nature of personal preferences.
Nothing. But remember your value as a person is being the best decent you can become.
Not many people disagree with that.
In her original post, a good number of men were against it
In person though I agree with you. I've yet to encounter any
It seem so controversial. So I broke it down.
m the Taliban does not want to understand that...
That's the best philosophy to have.. Become the best you that you be..
No, there's nothing wrong with any of those. Are you dealing with people who say that there is?
Yes, men on here seem to think that this is action of a feminist
Aww I don’t even know nothing about that.
Who do you think would argue with you on that?
If you look at part one, you can see why
I totally agree with you
Who said there is?
OK? Who said otherwise?
Some people prefer women to be traditionally subservient while the men are the bread winners. Evidently doing so is feminist
Submission can only come from domination and that only happens when a woman respect you to lead her
@Sirenboobzilla following this logic most women then are feminists and there is nothing wrong with that. And I'm a "simp" because i love and respect women.
Right. I get the impression it's not your thing to be owned like a commodity. Is someone trying to corner you into that?
Wow you are what we say a keeper that so disable
Hmmm
I agree.
Good idea
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