Men should cover up and start having some self-respect!

[LuckyLittleLucy]

Not something you hear a lot, right?

Change "men" to "women", and suddenly it makes a lot more sense. Doesn't it?

It shouldn't. I recently read a post that said that if women covered up, these things would happen:

1. They would have more self respect.


2. They could "remain a mystery" and "save themselves for the right man"


3. Women would be less sexualised.


4. The amount of rapes would decrease.

I'd like to tackle these things individually.

Self Respect

According to this idealogy, not covering up my body and being proud to show it off (if you are comfortable with that) means that I don't respect it. Hmm...

So if I have the confidence to wear clothes that show my body off in a good way, I clearly don't respect my body.

It doesn't add up. You can respect yourself whilst being covered up and when you're not being covered.

"Saving yourself" and "being a mystery"

Actually you don't have to.

If you don't want to be a mystery and you don't want to "save yourself for a man", that's okay.

But if you do, the way you dress doesn't really affect it. In my opinion, remaining a mystery is being enough of yourself to remain fun and interesting, and keeping yourself to yourself enough so people want to get to know you more.

Also, saving yourself for somebody (because you can save yourself for a woman too) if you want to, go for it. If you don't, that's your choice. Nobody else's. And "covering up" won't change that decision.

Women will be less sexualised

Let's think. Who is the most likely to sexualise women because they're not covered from head to toe?

Probably the people who see women in a sexual light. Which is quite often men. Is that the women's fault?

No.

Rape

Possibly the most controverisal "advantage" of covering up. Let me tell you, it makes no difference what women are wearing. Because if it did, children wouldn't get raped would they? I know it's horrible but it had to be said.

And once again, I will reiterate:

Rape isn't about sexual gratification. Rape is about violence and overpowering somebody. Sex is merely the weapon.

It's literally about weakening somebody to make yourself feel more in control or powerful.

I feel like this quote sums it up better than I ever could.

I think that that says it all.

[heavensgift2girls]

Your third point completely destroys any creditability your first two points had. Any attractive person regardless of their gender that is dressing sexy is going to be sexualised. We all know that. That is just reality. If it is wrong to sexualize women, and women are sexulizing themselves by barely wearing anything, then it means the first two points must have some truth behind them. It is only when there is nothing wrong with sexualizing women that the first two points no longer matter at all.

As far as rape, I agree that has nothing to do with what the woman is wearing. Rape is about opportunity, and not about how attractive the rapist finds the other person. I also agree with the fact that men should be offended by that. Because men are more open about our sexuality, men are seen as sexual perverts and rapists in our culture. We can't even hug a friend without people assuming it is sexual in nature. Which is why so many people including men fear a woman might be hurt by one of his fellow men, that can't control himself. People can be sexist against their own gender and this is unfortunately a common problem.

In short people are too busy judging each other instead of letting other people live their own lives. Women get slut shamed, and men get pervert shamed. Both need to stop.

[Minxxie]

When a man tried to rape me I was wearing a hoody and sweatpants, all he cared was that I was alone. So I hate that excuse for shaming women it isn't true and I know that first hand.

[pnl86]

Be careful what you wish for ladies, desexualize men, and all of a sudden, women all over the country will now have to pay to get into bars and clubs, for their own drinks, won't receive any kind of special treatment from any kind of guy, and as women will be busting their butt to stay financially afloat, happy single men all over the country will be wondering where to invest their loads of cash parked in their checking accounts. It's the kind of idea that would make for a good comedy.

On a more serious note. "Black people should be offended when someone says, 'He was an idiot going into a low-income high-crime neighborhood with a $2,000 suit, his flashy Rolex watch, with $100 bills flying out of his pockets, and half drunk. Of course he was going to get mugged.'"

Really? "ALL BLACK PEOPLE" should be offended? Why? Are ALL BLACK PEOPLE criminals and robbers?

Did you see the flaw in that female line of thinking? It speaks volumes about the level of hate some women carry inside them towards men.

It's not "men" who are incapable of control, just because the "rapist" was a man. It's "rapists" who are incapable of control. Take a logic class.

Plus, when a man is walking drunk under those circumstances into a low-income and high-crime neighborhood, society rightfully (yes, RIGHTFULLY) ridicules such a person for his stupidity, because he's "unreasonably exposing himself to a KNOWN RISK." What's the KNOWN RISK? CRIME! There will ALWAYS BE CRIME! You can't STOP IT. You can only AVOID IT. Society doesn't attack him "because he was a victim of a crime." NO! Society attacks him "because he's an idiot!"

Stupid comments like, "We need to teach our boys to not be rapists" are what's sexist, because comments like that 'pre-suppose' something inherently negative about being male.

If a girl walks near black-out drunk, alone, late at night, half-naked, anywhere where people exist, she's exposing herself "unreasonably" to the risk of a crime. She could EASILY AVOID exposing herself to that kind of risk. But instead, she wants to be an idiot and say, "Nahhho! (burp), Men should like just not rape women, like ever. Men suck."

Wow.

Yes, tell a paranoid schizophrenic suffering from a manic/psychotic bipolar episode that he just "shouldn't be violent." Let's start a program to "teach" people that. So, in case they happen to be "fcuked up in the head one day," that will totally be money and time well-spent. (sarcasm emphasized).

[LightsOff]

Most rapes actually don't happen outside in the dark in some dangerous neighborhood or street, so that "point" you made there is kinda irrelevant.

"It's not "men" who are incapable of control, just because the "rapist" was a man. It's "rapists" who are incapable of control."
Then why do other men keep making up shitty excuses for these rapists?

[pnl86]

Why do other men keep making "sh*tty excuses" for these rapists? A "criminal" is someone who is clearly deviating from the norm in terms of their "physical" brain functioning or "cognitive" brain functioning, in such a way that they are unable to conform their behavior to what is "lawful." Forget "socially acceptable," just "lawful" (i. e., not criminal). Sometimes, that's so severe that an "insanity" defense excuses culpability, but unexcused "criminal" culpability is the result of people who have mental problems. These people "need" to be locked-up so that they are no longer a danger to society.

The fact that some of these criminals happen to be "black," or "hispanic," or "men," or "white," or "female," doesn't therefore mean that "Men have criminal traits."

That's your own hate towards men talking.

[Goldie757]

Guess what I always pay to get into bars and clubs, and for my own drinks and don't want or receive any kind of special treatment from any kind of guy. I pay my own bills and rent while going to uni with 2 jobs.

I depend on me.

[pnl86]

Relevance, Beyonce? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lPQZni7I18

[Derpyy]

Ahh, I don't even have to say anything now. Exactly how I feel especially about the comparison with blacks. Thank you for doing my job, Sir. Here's a cookie. :)

[Sara413]

If the choice is "pay for your own shit, but be treated with respect and dignity" or "continue to deal with sexual harassment, assault and male aggression but sometimes get a free drink out of the deal" there really is no fucking contest there...

I already pay for my own shit, so I'm just waitin' on that respect and dignity I've heard such great things about...

[pnl86]

That's a "false choice" fallacy, and not the question or choice that's presented for anyone to make. That who idea is just a distraction and derailment from the main issue:

Do you acknowledge that CRIME is just a reality of life, and that ALL CRIME cannot be 100% PREVENTED, and so that it is not an unreasonable request for society to ask people to take REASONABLE steps in order to AVOID exposing themselves to an UNREASONABLE RISK of being a victim of a crime?

Yes, or no? (That's a rhetorical question, unless you believe that "THE WHOLE WORLD" should just change in order to conform to how "YOU WOULD LIKE THE WORLD TO BE.")

[pnl86]

"Arrogance" is more likely to cause people to expose themselves to unreasonable risks of criminal activity than "ignorance" could ever compete with.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

"It's not "men" who are incapable of control, just because the "rapist" was a man. It's "rapists" who are incapable of control."
That's literally what the last image says. It's not that difficult to comprehend.
Also, like I keep saying, there is genuine proof there is no correlation between dress and rape likelihoods. In addition to this, a guy can be near black-out drunk, alone, late at night and get raped too.

[pnl86]

There is genuine proof that if you leave a Tiffany & Co. shopping bag at the Apple store while shopping for an iPad, and you leave that bag unattended, and you give thieves the "opportunity" to commit a crime... you are more likely to spend the next (2) hours going through video footage and helping officers make out a police report of what happened.

That's "carelessness."

"Arrogance" is starting an entire movement and online campaign about how people should be allowed to leave their stuff down in an Apple store without it being stolen!

Sure, nobody is opposed to that normative argument, but it does nothing to change the reality that if you give criminals "opportunity," criminals are more likely to act.

So, if a girl gets drunk, and is alone, with multiple men she doesn't know, regardless how she is dressed... she's not "asking for it," she's "exposing herself to an unreasonable risk of being the victim of a crime."

[LuckyLittleLucy]

But the point is in that scenario she's vulnerable because she's alone and in a weak state. What you wear doesn't make you weak or vulnerable (what opportunist rapists look for in potential victims) and over 60% of rapes are pre-meditated anyway so I don't think dressing conservatively will change that.
Furthermore, there's literally studies that show there is no correlation (and I wish I had the link).
Also, you don't leave your body "unattended". People are aware of what happens to them. Being careless is letting it get to sex without saying "Hold on...". Carelessness is NOT about the way you dress, why is it such a problem to you? And I don't see how you can compare a person to a bag of stuff from "Tiffany & Co", lives are invaluable, that is not.

[pnl86]

If you care to take a step back for a second from all your emotional rage... and listen... to what OTHER people are saying... like... REALLY listen... and put your ideas and "points" aside for a second... then maybe you may actually come closer to wherever you existentially wanted to be.

People can do things to mitigate the risk that they become the victim of a crime (premise).

One such thing is to not attract the attention of criminals (which does have to do with the way someone dresses and acts).

One such thing is to not give criminals the opportunity to commit the crime (which does not have to do with dressing).

For as long as 100% of rapes, or 90% of rapes, or 80% of rapes, or 75% of rapes are not "pre-meditated," then that means that at least some rapes occur without any premeditation. So, would it not "benefit" someone to perhaps do or not do certain things that would help to NOT ATTRACT ATTENTION FROM CRIMINALS?

[pnl86]

If there is something that women can avoid doing that would help to reduce the risk that they become the victim of a criminal activity... and that thing does not in any way place some unreasonable restraint or burden on women (i. e., it's a "reasonable" degree of care or prudence) ... then is there some reason you feel it's still appropriate to be in an emotional rage over the proposition that:

"People in general (women included) should use a reasonable degree of care in making sure they do not expose themselves to an unreasonable degree of criminal activity" ?

If there's a problem with that proposition, respectfully, I think everyone would really love to hear it.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

You're correct in that line of thinking. But really, even rapists (and ex-rapists) say that clothing was never a motivator or a factor in picking or targeting a victim. So even if you cover up, it's not actually a precaution because it isn't a factor, so your likelihood of being raped is exactly the same.

[pnl86]

So, then, if clothing and style of dressing is not a "trigger" or factor that attracts the attention of the criminal mind of the rapist... in other words... if 100% of rapists have already made up their minds about raping their targeted victim before they have even seen her wear anything "racy" or "revealing" or "suggestive" or inherently "sexual" in public... then I think we can all concede that the choices people make with respect to the clothes they wear out in public will have ZERO impact on the risk of criminal activity they expose themselves to.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

I would say yes- if you're referring to rape...

[Ozanne]

Rape is a touchy subject. Just like @Minxxie I was raped when I answered the door to a guy-friend (who I had previously rejected sexually), while I was wearing my sloppy loungewear and had no makeup or my hair done. He was already going to rape me. That was the intent. The second he had gotten inside the front door he grabbed my wrists and pulled me in to the living room. He was angry, and wanted to control. Like, now, my attitude then was "no one is going to control me", but it fails when someone is raping for power.

I felt as thought when I dressed up to go to bars, I certainly got the attention, but often times, guys view women the same way they do when they channel surf. They will dart their eyes around from woman to woman and maybe even stop for a second on one and react, "Whooaaa check her out," but then continue to "channel surf".

The average Joe who enjoys going out and bird-watching doesn't rape. They just hang out with their friends like frat boys and enjoy their good-timing. The men who rape, do it for power, and if you look at most men who are charged with rape, take a look at them and their personal lives. They're losers. They have few friends, not many people like them as a whole, and they have trouble controlling their anger. The woman they attack could very well be the girl who works at the gas station who told him to fuck off when he asked her out, waiting for her at closing time. Or it could be like my case: a guy friend who was rejected sexually who couldn't handle it. Elderly women are raped, women covered in burqas are raped. Soccer moms are raped. Children are raped.

I think dressing provocatively garners a ton of unwanted attention, sure. It sends a message about what you think of yourself. Some of the sexiest women I've seen cover up all the right spots and still drive men crazy. All dressing down does is send a message saying that you believe coming across as a sexual being will put you ahead of the pack. It doesn't. It actually puts you behind the pack in the end. As for rape, these women are not really any more susceptible than other women only that they might come close to the unwanted sexual attention and sexual contact more than other women because men might be more inclined to hit on them and think they're okay to touch them. As for following through with the rape, I really don't think so. Though I'd love to know a statistic that talks about this.

Great Take though! Overall, more women should be aware of their "messages".

[LogicBomber]

I find it interesting that you insist on sliding the "CONTROL" and "POWER" words in there and sentences like "when someone is raping for power"... To try and coincide with the rape is about power and control idea we keep hearing.
But as you stated you previously rejected him sexually... he wanted sex. Rape is about sex.
He may have used power and control to get the sex, but sex was the underlying reason.

As I stated above actual studies of real rapist have proven this.
- www.drtraycehansen.com/.../writings_politics.html
- emmatheemo. wordpress. com/.../ <---this is an article which discusses the study with sources.

I don't get why so many females want to insist that rape is not about sex but is about some male need to dominate and control.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

@LogicBomber seriously? We don't just "slide" the words CONTROL and POWER in.
MYTH: Men rape for sex.
The truth is that rape is not only about relieving sexual desire. It is about gaining power and control over another person. A rapist gets satisfaction by humiliating and controlling his victim and uses sex as the tool to do this.
TRUTH: Rape is more about having power over someone than about sex.
You can argue your point with the Rape Crisis Trust if you'd like. Here's the link to that quote
rapecrisis.org.za/.../

[LogicBomber]

It isn't a MYTH... it's a validated truth. Rapist who happen to be male rape for sex. PERIOD.
The only people who seem to believe it has anything to so with power and control are people who have not ever been or ever will be MEN.
Pointing me to a female biased rape crisis center statistic page does NOT show any truth to your claim, it just proves that feminist propaganda is used to push an idea.
Talking to ACTUAL RAPIST and doing a STUDY on WHY... is a NONBIASED and TRUTHFUL STAT.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

I just searched and what most of the rapists said (on the website I saw) was that they did it to teach the woman a lesson or to overpower them because they [the women] were refusing to have sex with them.
Also, if they ONLY did it for sex, it could've easily been consensual. But the "forced" themselves upon the victim. Therefore by using "force" which means overpowering the victim. Therefore to overpower somebody, power must be involved.

[LogicBomber]

The reason it makes more sense when you put women in place of man is because men don't walk around half naked expect women to not look at them and constantly bitch and moan about the attention they are desperately try to get.

Allow me to send you to this post...
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a10332-the-narcissistic-dress-code-let-girls-wear-what-they-want

If men DID dress the way women did, they would very quickly and openly be shamed.

When it comes to RAPE... it would absolutely decrease the amount of rape.( Keep in mind that rape is not 1 in 4 and is actually much rarer than you are told but most people stick to the KOSS study because it sounds scarier.)

Don't carry on with the "what she wears doesn't create rape"... we know that! But what you wear DOES increase the likelihood. That's a simple logic. In the same way a child who is being watched by parents is less likely to be abducted, or a locked car is less likely to be robbed... A female who makes it harder to get to her body parts is LESS likely to be attacked! It doesn't completely guarantee it because crazy people still do crazy shit, but just like the other examples... taking PERCAUTIONS reduces the risk! PERIOD!

And stop with the RAPE is about power bullshit. Rape is about sex! There have been actual NON-feminist biased studies which questioned ACTUAL rapists and the overwhelming majority said sexual gratification was the cause... NONE said POWER or Humiliation!

www.drtraycehansen.com/.../writings_politics.html

emmatheemo.wordpress.com/.../ <---This is an article which discusses the study with sources.

[bang678]

Instead of teaching women to cover up how about we teach men not to rape? Gee, there's a concept..

As far as how men vs women dress, thats just the point. Women shouldn't be as sexualized. And if we really wanted to pull in a free the nipples debate, we could, because men are sexualizing parts of women that really shouldn't be sexualized.

[LogicBomber]

Oh the ol' "teach MEN not to rape" like men don't fucking know rape is bad or something. Jesus.
Men (even rapist) know it is wrong, how is this so hard for people like you to understand!
You believe that if someone went up to a rapist and said "oh by the way, rape is wrong" they would be like "Holy fuck are you serious... I had no idea". That idea is simply moronic.
It goes back to the other crimes. Criminals know what they do is wrong, they are fucked up in the head and do it anyways. So your idea is the same as teaching pedophiles not to touch children, or thief's to not steal. Instead of teaching people to take precautions to protect themselves from bad people. It's an idiotic "concept" and the fact that people actually believe it would work more than teaching people to take precautions to protect themselves, and take responsibility for their own actions to prevent crimes against them. I mean COME ON how can you even say that without feeling foolish.

...

[LogicBomber]

In regards to women being sexualized…
www.forbes.com/.../
BOTH men and WOMEN see the female body differently in the brain than they do the male body. Women objectify women just as much as men do, and it’s mentally programmed. YOU can NOT change it! SO let’s stop the MEN are sexualizing women comments, because it’s equal and we are not the scapegoat of responsibility women seem to always treat us like we are. Take responsibility for your own actions instead of pretending men are always the reason for everything you hate.
Next time you look at another woman and size her up, and compare something on her to something on yourself… remember that MEN do NOT do that. We admire the beauty of the female body but we don’t compare it. We are less critical of women than other women are of other women.
...

[LogicBomber]

Free the nipple is a moot point because MANY places allow women to bare their breasts even though the male and female chest is completely different because women use it not just for feeding a child but for sexual pleasure. It is more of a sex organ than the male chest.

[bang678]

You're not worth the time to converse with. You clearly don't get any of my points.

[LogicBomber]

Sure if that's what you need to convince yourself.
I understand your points perfectly... that doesn't make them right.

[NoUseForName]

Haha I love how quickly a retreat is made when an argument as bullet proof as yours is made! @LogicBomber

*Slow clap* Cheers mate.

[bang678]

its not a bulletproof argument. it's that its not worth my time to argue with someone who thinks what they have to say is end all, be all.

[LogicBomber]

My argument isn't end all be all, it just makes logical sense and your argument does not... if you had anything valid I would accept it under critical review.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

Acutally, it DOESN'T increase your risk of rape. I can't remember the studies that showed this so I can't send you the links. However, take this into account, if your clothing DID in fact increase the risk, why were over 1000 men raped in London last year, with 50% of those being under 18... As many people have commented here, men wear clothes that "cover more".
So those 1000+ rapes could've happened to women, wearing "provocative clothing". But they didn't, because clothing makes no difference.

[LogicBomber]

Why does this concept become so difficult for people such as yourself.
Rape happens, it will happen REGARDLESS of clothing, BUT just like an unlocked door... LOGICALLY if you are an easier target, you are increasing your odds that the RAPIST who was going to RAPE ANYWAYS, will choose you over a more difficult victim... simply makes sense when the rapist is not after a specific target.
Those rapes that occur where the victim is a person in particular that the rapist is targeting will obviously get attacked no matter what and no matter what they are wearing.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

Okay, so the "unlocked door" idea is pretty logical- I get it. Studies show if you leave your door unlocked you're 37% more likely to get robbed.
However, with rapists, their behaviour isn't logical. Considering over 60% of rapes are pre-meditated, it shows they don't care about clothes. They care about overpowering a victim. And yes- RAPE IS ABOUT POWER. Very few rapists are "opportunists" and they said that what they identify as an opportunity is when a victim (not always female) is alone, or in an isolated area, showing signs of weakness physically or psychologically (such as body language showing they are not confident etc.). There was no mention of 'clothing' or 'inappropriate dress'.
Furthermore, some claim that to wear what you would call "provocative clothing" takes confidence, and courage. These are traits (some- as said in the above section) rapists would avoid because they attempt to target weaker, less confident victims- if they are in fact opportunists at all.

[LogicBomber]

Premeditated rape is when the victim of the crime is the target of the crime, similar to when a person is robbed or kidnapped or murdered for a personal reason between them and the criminal. They are obviously different cases than when someone is the victim of a random attack. Random attacks are the ones I am referring to when I talk about clothes being a factor.

Actually once again, rape is not about power. Regardless of what females want to believe, the nonbiased actual study of real rapist shows it's about sex. Mention or lack there of about clothes does not invalidate this.
Targeting a weaker less confident female does not necessarily mean clothing wise. If you see a female who looks like she will fight tooth and nail, then they are more likely to move on, but a flakey female in skimpy clothes may make females assume she is confident and strong to other females, to males it doesn't show any of that ever. A girl dress like a hooker simply shows she is desperate for attention...

[LogicBomber]

.. and likely has self esteem issues.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

As I mentioned, in "random" and "opportunist" don't look for girls who wear "provocative clothing". They look for victims who seem weak and not confident because they're easier to attack,
So some people are actually coming out with the argument that provocative clothing takes confidence to wear and therrefore the rapists may associate that with the idea that women who wear these clothes are "stronger" therefore those clothes don't make them more likely to be a target because they appear to be harder to weaken and make less confident etc.

[LogicBomber]

Yes but those people are wrong, because a female wearing provocative clothing only seems confident and strong to other women who feel they wouldn't have the strength or confidence to wear those items. I don't know of any male who associates a female dressing slutty with confidence and strength.

and where do you get the idea that a opportunist rapist wouldn't look for an easier target like a female in less or easy to access clothing? Have you ever been either a rapist or a man?

[LuckyLittleLucy]

Since when did "provocative" mean "slutty"?
Contrary to this, you're correct. I've never been a rapist nor a man. On the other hand, I look at genuine, real studies and quotes from rapists and none that I have seen say that clothing was a factor. At all. Rapists won't let clothes get in the way- whatever they are like.
Furthermore, you may describe provocative clothing as tight. Tight clothes are much harder to get off anyway, so it would probably make it more difficult- if rapists were at all motivated by aspects of clothing, which they themselves say they aren't.

[LogicBomber]

1. Always.
2. The real studies with real rapist talk about rape being about SEX not power or control. I don't know where you got the clothes being a factor part.
The subject of clothes is simply logic, rapist who are opportunist will rape regardless of attire, but logic will tell you that an easier target is more likely to get attacked. At no point did I say clothes would motivate rape. EVER!

[Rawrzz]

Eh. Yeah. I'd agree with the self respect. I would never dare say anything to jeopardize less clothing worn by women, of course.

It's still a mystery, even if she's wearing three dots and a string. And, even then, it's not like personality is as big of a thing for guys. Otherwise, women wouldn't feel the need to dress as they do. And thank God for that. And, really, I don't care about mystery, in the first place. It's not like some chick will come up to me, flash me, and then I'll be like, "Oh NOOOOOO! THE MYSTERY IS RUINED!" No. I'll be like, stunned, and hypnotized in boob heaven, while studiously examining nipple shape.

I really don't know. I do know one thing, though. It is not a good idea to carry around cooked and deliciously smelling steak around a pack of dogs (not relating men to dogs, in *that* way). Maybe most of the dogs are well behaved, but then there are the ones that just jump on you all happy-like "OMG STEAK I CAN HAS?", then, there might be--just might be--a really pissed off doberman with rabies somewhere in that dog pen who ends up allured by the steak and then rapes the person holding the steak.

I can't say one way or another if dress code has anything to do with who a rapists decides to rape, most people say no. But, to me, it seems like common sense that walking around naked would solicit a stronger sexual desire than a woman clothed in Arctic gear. BUT! I would never do ANYTHING to prevent women from wearing yoga pants... I'm kidding. Absolutely kidding. Dress code clearly and completely has *nothing* to do with rape. :D

And who can really say why rapists rape? Are you a rapist? I can gladly say I don't know why the fuck rapists rape, but I would assume sex is at least most of the goal. Much like walking around in shorts that don't cover your butt is, in part, to catch dudes' eyes and in part because it's hot outside.

Also. It's hot outside for men, too, but it's not like we all walk around in a g-string. And, we don't walk around in speedos (well, the self-respecting men don't). If it really was because it's hot--and that might be some of the reason, but--really. You do it 'cause you wanna look hot. I mean, sexually. Not temperature wise... Nothing wrong with that, but let's not pretend.

As for not being viewed sexually... Same thing ^^^^^. Would ladies really be happy if men just didn't look at them sexually, at all? Ultimately, YOU ARE sexy. That's not *ALL* you are, but that's part of it. Just like men.

[Rawrzz]

And, it's not about trying to get men to not view women sexually. I mean, that's sorta antithetical to the very nature of... the entirety of human existence. It's about teaching people to respect others' will. If someone says, "Oh, no. Please do not insert that knife into my abdomen." You should go, "Oh. Okay. I guess I won't stab you." And, unless someone goes, "Hey. Let's have sex." You shouldn't have sex with them. Bam. Simple.

I mean. The difference is supposed to be a sexual object versus a sexual being, a person with a mind and goals and aspirations and beliefs and such: not just a vagina. But, any way you look at it, you have a vagina and boobs and a--probably--alluring body. Nothing will ever change men desiring it in a sexual way. Pretty sure everyone already knows that, and that women are actually people. GASP! Although, some of the chicks I've met are pretty much on the border of human/some subspecies of some blonde monkey.

[PhoenixRisingDK]

First, come to terms with the fact that rapists exist, regardless of how you dress.
Naturally, nobody sane approves of rape.

But walking alone, half naked, through the park in the middle of the night probably isn't the smartest thing in the world to do.

When I ride a bike in the city, I never pull up beside a lorry taking a right turn, I always stay behind.
Why? Because I'm not gambling the chance the driver is aware of me, even though I have the right of way. Yet, I've seen numerous accounts of cyclists mowed down claiming their rights.

Now I'm not saying women shouldn't dress how they please, take any route home they want, at any time they see fit.
I'm just saying there's no reason to be stubbornly stupid - because rapists are out there, just waiting to grab a hottie who wanders off alone half naked.
It's not like a dedicated rapist suddenly has a vision of truth and righteousness, when surfing the internet, and see stuff like this.
They don't give a shit... really, they don't.

There's absolutely no harm in being mindful of your choices and your self-conduct.
I know I am all the time.

I have the freedom of speech.
I can go tell a group of bikers to go suck each others dicks, and they're not allowed to touch me.
That doesn't mean I'm stupid enough to do it for the fun of it, as there's a good chance they'll beat the shit out of me.
People will even laugh at my bloody remains and say I was being stupid and had it coming.

Do as you please, but also do what you can to stay safe.
Because a rapist doesn't give a shit about your right to dress as you please.
And they don't disappear because you post our rights on the internet.

The thing about criminals is... they don't really care about your rights.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

I get it. But the point of this Take isn't to say "do what you like, you might get raped anyway" because you're right, walking alone, especially at night is dangerous. However, unlike those to things, the way you dress actually has NO link to the likelihood of you being raped. So yes be careful to try and keep yourself safe but the point of that section was that the excuse of "conservative dress makes you less likely to get raped" isn't valid, because it's been proven wrong.

[PhoenixRisingDK]

As said it in another thread:
The way you act or dress does't cause rape.
Rapists cause rape.
You can't entirely prevent rape either, but you can take precautions.
A rapist may or may not have a preference for drunk flirty girls in revealing outfitst, and you may or may not take that into consideration when going out.
Either way you go about it, stay safe and never wander off alone, but stay with a trusted girl friend.

[KayStark]

With all of this comes down to one thing understanding with actions come consequences good or bad. Showing skin does increase your likelihood of being raped by a stranger that's for sure. It's like me sayimg I left my house door open when I went on holiday and got robbed. Although it's not your fault logically speaking there are ways to reduce this chances by locking your door. Rape is similar dare I say it. Even thou it's not your fault you could of slimmed down the chances. I dont think im victim blaming instead im using rationality.
With sexual objectification the media has to stop it because humans learn from vicarious reinforcement which is learning from what others do and the rewards and punishments they recieve. If the media said objectification is disgusting men wouldn't do it so instead of blaming guys you have to blame the source. It's a bit like a child having a shit mum and a bad childhood and you blame the child for there behavior when in reality some of the blame is the upbringing. In liFe you can't expect everything to be perfect you have to deal with what's in front of you and what's reality instead of bitching about what the reality iS. If a gurl is wearing a crop top and short shorts and is drUnk at night of course she has sone responsibilty.
In society where to scared of putting some blame on the victim sometimes it's necessary otherwise they'll never learn and think what they were doing was fine When in actuality some precautions need to be taken.
That quote about your natural state is a rapist isn't smart. I find it wrong that for women to convey societies double standards they insult a man because he simply doesn't agree with u. That's the sort of thing which makes our feminist movement seem man-hating. If you want someone to agree with u u dont insult them in the process.

[Sara413]

The quote you are disagreeing with literally says that men are NOT animals.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

"That quote about your natural state is a rapist isn't smart."
It's not supposed to be. It's meant to be honest. It's saying that men are not all animals or rapists. It's saying, don't let society portray you that way by saying dress causes rape. Because it doesn't. Scientifically proven.
Read it again and look at the actual meaning.

[Jay-Are]

Those things that men (but also women) say is something you should not take too serious. Lot's of people say stuff like "have some self respect". However it is a term somebody else once said and without putting any thought to it they just repeat it. Kind of like a parrot.

I also think it's used by men as a form of control over women. The power a naked woman can have over a man is sooooo much greater than a naked man can have over woman (mostly).

Would rape decrease? Yes and No? I am sure a lot of rape happens because guys get too aroused by what women wear. But it is also to blame that we are not used to seeing body parts of each other. And also from the day we're born we're told that it is wrong to look at other peoples body parts. That's why it is so appealing.

A guy would maybe get aroused by seeing a women in a very short skirt. But let that same guy walk around at a nudist beach and that feeling of arousal would be gone in 15 minutes. Why? Because it is not special anymore. Everybody does it.

Personally I feel we should wear whatever we wanna wear without being criticized by others.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

Well said!

[anon4122]

So, I firmly believe women should wear whatever they want where ever they want. ( Unless it literally becomes a case of nudity.) That said 1 expect men to look I mean do women not look at men they think are hot if they go shirtless? 2 That quote about rape at the end is false. In America (can't speak for anywhere else.) We seem to treat rape different from non-sexual forms of violence. No one calls it victim blaming when we tell people to behave defensively about any other threat in life whether it comes from people or not and whether or not it is intentionally done by them or not. Defensive driving is never called victim blaming. So, while it is NEVER the victim's fault. We should always try to be safe not sorry because people immoral enough to rape don't care if it is cool or legal. So, the only way we know of now to be safe is to be strong and or have protective items like pepper spray. To learn how to end rape we must do psychological research on rapists and why they rape not just tell them "Swiper no Swiping" and it will take time to find that out and then to end the problem. So lets do both fight to end rape (in an actually smart way) and be safe until the fight is one.

[cipher42]

Context is very very important, and that's what your missing in your rebuttal to the victim blaming thing. The facts are that women really are told all the damn time that they are somehow at fault if they are raped. When they report it, they are often asked what they were wearing, how they were acting, all that. This happens FAR mor rarely with people reporting stuff like robbery or other forms of violence. There really, truly is a HUGE issue with victim blaming in cases of rape, which just doesn't exist with the other types of violence you mentioned. So yes, we treat advice about defending from rape differently than advice about defending from other types of violence and robbery, because it often is different, and appears in the context of a society that already has a huge issue with victim blaming, which necessitates wariness about the quality and implications of such advice.

[anon4122]

hmmm. Sources?

[PiuBelloAmante]

Teach boys that they are not sexual objects...
Well why don't we teach or girls that they are not sexual objects too! The problem doesn't only come from men!

Seriously! All little girls see is adds, commercials, shows, and movies where the female body is exposed and cherished! By doing so girls begin to think that they are only as good as their bodies which is horrible!

Look at Ariana grande, Miley Cyrus and some other child actresses
They went from being 'normal girls' from Disney to hyper sexualised girls in their music!
These are girls that little girl watched and admired growing up and now these actresses completely objectify themselves and promote sexualization

[bang678]

Just like any person, women are sexual beings. If we use music as an example guys can have a very sexually explicit song and no one bats an eye. If a woman has a sexually explicit song suddenly she's "trashy".

By no means should women be told to hide that its okay to be a sexual being. It should be taught that its an option, and if they are that they don't owe anyone anything.

[PiuBelloAmante]

@bang678 you are already a brainwashed girl who completely bought the Bull Shit of Pop culture and the sexualization of women! you yourself have bought in to the objectification good job =)
Its not an issue of male and female! its a problem for human beings! can't you see that!
I agree men shouldn't be objectifying women in songs, or television, but its us to up to protest these shows! i dont watch television or listen to songs that do this (Main reason why i dont listen to almost all rap music)
Its not ok to be a sexual being, its actually not healthy and has caused a whole generation of women to be insecure and thoughts like yours just breed more objectification

Women can be sexy and affectionate at times, thats fine, but when you have 14 year old girls exposing their bodies its not alright. I think as a whole society the sexualisation of girls is a really bad situation. Its up to all of us to change this to help raise less insecure and more confident women

[bang678]

No one gets mad when men act sexually confident (whether it be how they dress or how what they say)
But if a woman acts sexually confident suddenly its big deal.
Even with small things like being able to discuss sex at all. Women who even discuss sex are called sluts or trashy. But if a guy mentions that he's had a large number of sexual partners and he patted on the back.

[PiuBelloAmante]

@bang678 did you read anything i just wrote...
you sound like a souless humanoid who just spouts out automated responses regarding gender issues

I never promoted or congratulated Men for being highly sexually active. Thats not what i was trying to argue, i was trying to argue that SOCIETY AS A WHOLE, MAN AND WOMAN, need to boycott things that sexualise our girls! its not good! its destroying our girls confidence and just creates insecurity which leads to so many dysfunctional girls and boys! girls become the objects because they think thats the right thing to do, and boys keep regarding girls as objects because thats what they are becoming.

you didn't even bother reading what i wrote, and creating a valid response to it...
its not sexual confidence, its objectification we are talking about

[bang678]

what you aren't getting is that it IS a gender issue. gender issue doesn't mean men against women or vice versa. It does concern society as a whole.
Do you think that people should not be sexual beings at all? Both men and women are sexual beings and should be able to express it in healthy ways. There should be respect for people who are comfortable with being sexual and people who would rather not be. Its not being sexual that is destroying young girls, it's the pressure saying that they have to be thats destroying them.

Now if you can't respond in a way that actually furthers the conversation or elaborates your view in a reasonable manner, and you just respond with immature name calling like you have previously, I will block you.

[PiuBelloAmante]

@bang678 i did mention how "Women can be sexy and affectionate at times, thats fine, but when you have 14 year old girls exposing their bodies its not alright"

calling yourself a sexual being, is identifying yourself as a sex object...
its alright to be sexual and act sexually, but to call yourself a sexual being is completely different

oh by the way you can block me, i dont care to converse with you, you obviously are programmed to think that a woman's freedom has to do with her being sexual, when it has nothing to do with it. Its people like you who allow women to be mere sex objects

[bang678]

its like talking to a brick wall. I said nothing about freedom. being a sexual being is NOT being a sexual object. you can act sexual without being solely acted sexually upon. A sexual object is solely acted upon.

No one should look at a 14 year old girl and think of her sexually. if you look at a 14 year old girl and think her clothes are too sexual then your the problem for thinking of a child that way.

[annie_annie]

I agree with this dude. Read the whole thing and his points are valid. The problem is in our whole society and generations changing the good morals to something provocing, twisted and it's sad.

I teached my little sister carefully how to hold onto her morals and never do anything like exposing herself and acting all adult with her little age. And to be proud of herself inside and out WITHOUT needing any assurments or showing off her body in any way - still dress nicely and with stile for her age (she is 12). Most don't know the limits...

It is so upseting to see girls doing or thinking like this. I am truly sorry for you, m'lady.

[heavensgift2girls]

It seems like everyone has a different idea of what a sex object is, as well as different ideas about how to balance sexual objectification with freedom for both genders. Which is why this topic causes so many arguments. In the end it is wrong to tell other adults how to live their lives just because we don't agree with their personal decisions.

[AleDeEurope]

I agree with you, the take owner is just blaming men and not seeing that women are half as fault as men. I doubt a man put a gun to Nicki Minajs head and told her to sing Anaconda while shaking her ass half naked.
I see so many girls sexualizing themselves it's ignorant and insulting to blame all men, I mean, no one forced you to take your bra off at a concert and throw it to the singer (my ex did that, before I knew her, and when she told me I was extremely disappointed and I lost some respect for her, not gonna lie).

[LuckyLittleLucy]

@PiuBelloAmante
Your first point was great. But, women- like men- have a right to be sexual beings. They also have a right to display that if they choose. Perhaps we should be more concerned about censoring this so younger audiences don't see it and become TOO influenced, but apart from that, let people be how they choose?

[PiuBelloAmante]

No one should be calling themself a sexual being...
It's basically identifying yourself with sex...

Both sexes should not identify themselves as sexual beings

I think women should be able to express themselves sexually but to call your self a sexual being is basically telling the world that you are always thinking about sex

[LuckyLittleLucy]

I don't believe that that is true. If you identify as a "sexual being" it just means that you partake in and (most likely) enjoy sex.
Also, what's wrong with identifying with sex? It's a thing. It happens. Considering over 80% of people are sexually active,16% of those having sex more than 4 times per week and 1% actually having sex several times a day, if everyone said "I don't identify with sex" basically 4 out of 5 of those people would be lying.
Having sex is okay, it's normal. We can't pretend it doesn't happen. That study happened in your country @PiuBelloAmante so I think that we should identify as sexual beings to show that it's a healthy, normal thing to want! However, this doesn't need to be flaunted in front of young audiences (as you say) but surely, that's the point?

[PiuBelloAmante]

i have no problems with sex lol, i think its awesome and enjoy it, and i am not surprised that so many other doo too lol!
but i still think identifying yourself as a sexual being is a bit ridiculous

[LuckyLittleLucy]

But why? Sexual being= sexually active.
What's there to be ashamed of?

[PiuBelloAmante]

Sexually active does not equal sexual being
You are prejudging sexually active as being 'sexual beings'

Nothing to be ashamed of, just don't expect to be treated as much more than a sex object if you identify yourself as a sexual being

[LuckyLittleLucy]

Okay so what would you say is a "sexual being".
I would take it literally and say a sexual being is a being (person) that is in some way sexual- most likely sexually active or engaged in sexual activities.

[PiuBelloAmante]

A sexual being is someone who identifies with his or her sexual activities or sex in general

That's my definition

[LuckyLittleLucy]

Okay, I think that's a fair definition. So what's wrong with identifying with sex?

[PiuBelloAmante]

I just think people should be more than sexual beings
That they shouldn't identify themselves as that because there is probably more too them to sex

[LuckyLittleLucy]

I definitely agree there is more to people than just sex but I think that we shouldn't be afraid to identify as sexual beings and talk about it...

[PiuBelloAmante]

hey, to each their own =)

[Jimrat86]

1. Women long for attention and love it. Self-respect has nothing to do with it. You can have self-respect and still want attention.
2. Women would be more likely to "Save" themselves if they covered up. Wrong. A lot of women are very promiscuous. The clothing they wear will not change their personality or life style in the slightest.
3. Women would be less sexualized. Nope. Men would just be talking about what they would like to see underneath. If anything, they may become more sexualized.
4. Less rape. Wrong. Rape artists are mentally ill or sociopathic individuals. The kind of clothing women wear will not stop them from their actions.

[miserybusiness]

Glad you agree with the OP.

[LightsOff]

Yup. Not to mention that women wearing all kinds of clothes (even burqas) get raped, soooooo... there's that. And I really hate it when people claim you don't have self-respect. Self-respect = doing whatever the fuck you're comfortable doing and not giving a single fuck about what other people think of you (within reason of course). Self-respect is knowing what you want. Self-respect is being confident in your own skin. Self-respect is not letting someone else dictate who you should be. And I really agree with that last picture. When you guys make excuses for rapists, by saying that "oh she was wearing this, or acting like that, totally understandable that he raped her" you're pretty much agreeing with the fact that men are scum who have absolutely no self-control whatsoever and that you refuse to take responsibility for yourselves and your actions. Quite frankly I don't understand why anyone would want to be a shitty person like that. Absolutely nothing to be proud of.

[oracle12c]

My take on this is:

1. They would have more self respect.

Self respect have nothing to do with it.

2. They could "remain a mystery" and "save themselves for the right man"

Men usually don't care about a woman being a mystery or not, saving themselves for the right man is good in any case - same goes for men.

3. Women would be less sexualised.

Not possible, man and women are both sexualised because of human nature. It's the way it works.

4 . The amount of rapes would decrease.

No rape is not about the woman at all, it's about the rapist. Rape is done pertly for power/dominance and partly for sex, the victims usually just that, victims.

[lemonlimetime]

Excellent take. Although I'm a pretty modest person and kind of enjoy covering up I don't see anything wrong with other girls wanting to wear something less modest (unless they're literally walking around naked I think then I'd have to draw a line). The part about rape is so true. It really doesn't matter what you're wearing. If you're alone and defenseless I think you already have a chance for rape regardless of what the heck you're wearing.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

I agree! It's fine to not want to show off your body too

[Sara413]

Fucking BINGO on the end quote. That's what always bothers me about rape apologists. It's like, do you REALIZE what you are saying about men? You're saying they're a bunch of fucking animals who have no self-control! That's ridiculous! It's sexist and offensive, and jut plain WRONG. Men are human beings who are more than capable of controlling their impulses. Several of my favourite people in this world are men. They are wonderful people who understand boundaries and respect. Don't you fucking DARE assume they're animals.

[Sara413]

I should also probably mention that when I was raped I was wearing jeans and a t-shirt.. so, um, yeah.

[LogicBomber]

Saying that people should take precautions to protect themselves from bad people in NO WAY says that all men are rapist! It says that making it more difficult REDUCES the change that someone bad will do something bad to you.
Assuming that all rapists are male is sexist and offensive and just plain wrong.

You are right when you say Men are humans who are capable of controlling their impulses. Because we are. This is why you can't simply "Teach men not to rape"... We already know that! A rapist is someone who is messed up in the head, just like any other criminal.

The reality that bad things can and will still happen to someone who takes precautions is still there but when you do take precautions, your reduce the chance!

[Sara413]

There are different kinds of rapists... there are those who attack violently and they obviously know it's wrong, but there are others who push boundaries and disregard consent who may or may not realize that what they are doing is a crime. They might realize that what they're doing isn't totally straight and narrow but they don't take it particularly seriously. I'm thinking here of young guys who intentionally get young girls drunk and take advantage of them, or women who assume it's ok for them to force themselves on a man who doesn't want them, or guys who pressure and pressure and pressure a woman until she finally relents, feeling like it's her only real option...

[Gonetowardthewind]

But all men are rapists, so the last sentence is true

[LogicBomber]

When feminism warps the definition of rape to include "feeling obligated", a female saying yes when she has any amount of alcohol, or even morning after regret... then, of course, there are males who "don't know what they are doing is a crime"! BECAUSE IT ISN'T!

A black out drunk male is supposed to be 100% responsible for his decisions while unable to even think, while a female with a simple glass of wine is excused of all decision-making skills and that black out drunk male is supposed to make better decisions for her?
All that is saying is that feminist believe that women are so beyond weak minded that they are incapable of adult decisions. Yet at the same time saying women are "strong and independent".

[Gonetowardthewind]

@LogicBomber yea it's almost like we need to start babying them, separating them from the rest of the general public, and start taking away their rights since they can't take responsibilities even with a.01% BAC level

[LogicBomber]

@Gonetowardthewind Your remark screams snarky undertones, but...
Society already babies women. The endless funding, clubs, groups, campaigns, scholarships, quotas, etc. The removal of equal requirements for school and work. Less punishment for equal crimes.

They choose and are happy to segregate themselves from males because "all men are evil". Which is why they have female only clubs, groups, gyms, classes, housing, etc.

They have more rights than men in western society and have no issue with removing men's rights.

Expecting women to act and follow the same rules as men, isn't sexism or misogyny, it's EQUALITY.

[Gonetowardthewind]

@LogicBomber yes it is misogynistic that they have to follow their own rules

[Jager66]

That last pick is totally narrow sighted and off the mark, it's a good representation of the entire take.

Like it or not rapists exist and taking precautions to ensure you are less likely to be a target is called wisdom, anyone advocating for a measure of personal responsibility in your own safety is not making the presumption that they are barely capable of keeping their rape drive under control. That last pic is nothing but shame propaganda devoid of logic.

This post reeks of typical one sided, narrow vision, irrational, shame propaganda you can expect from your every day Feminist. The author may have a valid point to make but went about making it in entirely the wrong way so we will never know for sure.

[Sara413]

Clothing literally has NO CORRELATION to a woman's likelihood of being raped. Assuming that it does makes a very narrow-sighted and offensive assumption about men in general, and it is that you are ALL a bunch of potential rapsists and the sight of a woman's thigh or cleavage will cause you to lose control and attack her.

I just don't believe that about men. Pardon me for believing you are human beings capable of controlling your impulses.

[Jager66]

"NO CORRELATION" wrong, and what you mean is causality but we will over look that.
in 4.4% of rapes provocative behavior was a factor, including clothing and for murder cases it was 22%.

Also your using false logic, advising someone take preventative measures concerning rape =/= a presumption that men are inherently violent. I'm glad you don't believe all men are violent criminals, this makes you a sane person but please also try to be a rational one.

[Sara413]

Woah, a whopping 4.4% cite "provocative behaviour"? Well then.. that settles that argument! lol

You realise that provocative behaviour is A) very subjective and B) means a lot more than just what a person was wearing, and C) doesn't necessarily mean sexually provocative... right?

With regard to the murder stat, provocation is probably more often than not a verbal or physical argument/fight. Provocation can be anything as simple as the victim calling the murderer an ass hole or a douche bag. I highly doubt that in most of these cases the provoking factor came down to the woman's outfit...

[Jager66]

4.4% might mean nothing to you but to the 4.4% who are those rape victims it's pretty big fucking deal, if you can't empathize with that pain that is on you not me. If you prefer to ignore that part of the truth to support your false beliefs then at least accept your own ignorance instead of preaching your false belief's.

Yup it is somewhat subjective, although there is a science to human sexuality and the behaviors involved so it's not 100% subjective, also it should be pointed out that revealing clothing is very subjective, this only further complicates the subject making simple statements like, clothing has no effect on chance of rape, even more silly. In this instance they are referring directly to sexually provocative.

When it came to murder, also referring to sexually provocative behavior, something as simple as a glance is has been enough to trigger the murderer to kill said woman.

[Jager66]

This doesn't mean it's the victims fault if something happens or that all men/women are bad. What it means is use a little wisdom in your decision making to help keep your self safe, even though there is no guarenty in life. Things like don't walk down dark allies at night, especially alone, for example is a wise decision.

being afraid does not mean you are at risk and ignoring the truth does not make it go away.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

You made some fairly valid points there but "provocative behaviour" doesn't always lead to sex. You can be provocative and NOT have sex. So, even if provocative behaviour WAS involved, as soon as somebody says "no", it's not okay. Ever. At all.
That's like saying you like to run occasionally and then being forced into a marathon the next day- it's a big step and a totally different thing.

[Jager66]

I never said or implied that provocative behavior is consent to sex, obviously it's not.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

So if provocative behaviour doesn't lead to it, how would provocative clothing?

[Jager66]

"So if provocative behaviour doesn't lead to it, how would provocative clothing?" What does "it" refer too?

you said "You made some fairly valid points there but "provocative behaviour" doesn't always lead to sex. You can be provocative and NOT have sex. So, even if provocative behaviour WAS involved, as soon as somebody says "no", it's not okay. Ever. At all."

This was a useless remark that no one was debating so I said: "I never said or implied that provocative behavior is consent to sex, obviously it's not."

In response.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

So if you agree you can behave provocatively and not have sex, why would wearing provocative clothing - without having any notions or intentions of sex, and quite clearly saying you don't want sex mean you're not taking the right precautions?

[Jager66]

If a rapist targets you because of your sexually provocative clothing then you didn't take the right precautions did you?

The rapist KNOWS!! they are raping you, they don't care that you said no, they like that you said no and they are going to have sex with you anyway. Rapists are NOT normal people.

Just because you take all the right precautions does not mean you will not be targeted, there are no guarantees in life except that you will die one day. Just because there is a low probability of being targeted because of your clothing does not mean clothing isn't a risk factor. Just because you don't take precautions does not mean it's your fault if you get targeted but don't be surprised if you engauge in risky behavior and then suffer the consequences.

Telling people that how you dress does not effect your risk factor is a lie, if you want to make positive change in the world you have to start with the truth. Not an ideology or an approximation that fits your beliefs.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

So scientific research is just a lie? Okay...
Furthermore, why on Earth would I lie if it could risk a person's safety? Why would I discourage taking a precaution against rape?
I say what I believe, but I back it up with the facts. The science and the facts say clothing has no correlation with rape chances. I would never lie about that, not to prove a point or otherwise. I would never lie about something this serious.

[Jager66]

@LuckyLittleLucy
Nope you are wrong, according to the F. B. I.
"4.4% of rapes provocative behavior was a factor, including clothing and for murder cases it was 22%."

This is sexually provocative behavior they are talking about, specifically including clothing. Any "facts" you have that contradict this are not from experts in the field, they are most likely from Feminist sources and those are WELL!!! known to be fraudulent and misrepresented on a regular basis, they are also damn near never critically reviewed either.

If you are as logical as you claim then it is time for you to accept the new information you have gaind and change your beliefs accordingly.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

You're right about some Feminist groups- they're not all legitimate. However, I got my information from the police force, who came into my school- to talk about crime- and said that clothing is not a factor in rape cases. That's from the British Police Force... So according to my police force, wearing "conservative" clothing isn't actually a precaution.
And yes, they were actually from the police force, not just representatives of a subgroup.

[Jager66]

You should be careful with absolute statements, especially concerning human behavior because it is likely you will be wrong. Also an exception doesn't invalidate the rule, I think you might be under the impression that I'm saying it does which I'm not. The rule is that clothing is not a factor the exception is that it is a factor here is a quick summary from Utah State University. https://www.usu.edu/saavi/docs/myths_realities.pdf

[LuckyLittleLucy]

So yes, the rule- as you just said yourself- is that clothing isn't a factor. There are exceptions to every rule, but the point is that the likelihood of clothing being a factor/motivator is so slim that any circumstance when it did happen is an extremely rare exception to a rule. So, essentially, if you are ever unlucky enough to be at risk of being raped, the likelihood of your clothing being a factor is so small it really doesn't make a difference.

[Jager66]

"So, essentially, if you are ever unlucky enough to be at risk of being raped, the likelihood of your clothing being a factor is so small it really doesn't make a difference."

4.4% of rapes and 22% of murders it's a factor, maybe to you and your ideology that number is small enough to not matter but to the victims and their loved ones that is a REALLY!! big fucking deal. It's about being honest about the information not pushing an ideological agenda, if you care about fixing the problem you can only do that with the truth and the truth is that clothing is a factor even if it's a small one.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

I'm telling you what my police force told me. If you want to have the argument about how valid what I've said is, check out the facts from them. But what I've been told is, clothing doesn't make you more likely to get raped, and clothing is not an excuse or reason that would mean you would be raped.
I doubt the police force- who deal with rape on a daily basis- would give false information that would put girls in danger (and make more work for themselves).
I don't push ideologies. I'm still 'naive' enough to believe what the police tell me- if you want to argue with that, go ahead.

[Jager66]

The police force's job isn't to publish scientific data, their job is to keep the peace.

They know some of the people they are talking tow ill be raped in the future so they do a cost benefit analysis when it comes to these kinds of issues, weighing many factors, kind of like triage. For example, it's important for rape victims to not see them selves as victims and especially helpful to know that being raped was not their fault, because it is never their fault! Telling said victim that their clothing may have been a small factor is going to do more harm to many victims ability to heal then it will prevent rapes from happening because rapists will still rape.

Also there is a HUGE amount of political pressure to be politically correct about such issues, the police are a public service and must adhere to PC standards, the standards in our culture are primarily formed by Feminists when it concerns things like rape so the police tow the line.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

Well I trust it, it's up to you if you want to disagree...

[Jager66]

There is nothing wrong with trusting them, they aren't being nefarious, they are serving the public good.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

I know there's nothing wrong with trusting the police, that's why I do it. It's up to you if you disagree with what they say about the topics...

[Jager66]

I think your failing to see distinctions here, I both agree and disagree with them, I agree with what/why they say what they say but from a purely factual stand point it is incorrect.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

I understand perfectly well. I'm merely saying I agree with them, but I don't expect you to.

[Jager66]

ahh gotcha, there is certainly a feeling of security that comes from agreeing with authority figures.

[RandomStudent]

It's mostly women pushing these ideas that women that dress "slutty" have no "self respect". I can't imagine any straight guy my age saying something like that, just wear whatever the fuck you want. However, on certain special occasions you should cover up and dress decent, and this goes for males too. I encourage everyone to take fashion seriously and dress nice though, I'm sure most women aren't turned on by guys who wear dirty wife beaters all the time, and girls can make similar fashion mistakes and just look bad for no reason.

[Clinkz]

If I put potential cultural/religious differences aside then there's a remarkably small amount of men that actually think this way. I'm just saying that this is a classic "putting everything under one roof" kind of discussion that a lot of people like to use as an argument.

[anon4122]

agreed I think people are far more judgmental of people the same gender as them for whatever reason. The difference is men seem to admit this more to me. That last part though is purely my experience.

[CityBoy773]

I find this funny how every guy is disagreeing, shows how angry they get when the lights on turned on them. Sad really, but funny too.

Otherwise, I agree with you 100%. Hopefully this gets through to people, but I highly doubt it due to what society says for now.

[Unit1]

Indeed. Butthurt overload detected :)

[LuckyLittleLucy]

Thanks, but most of the comments ( form the guys especially) are pretty crazy!
I literally just wrote it with my opinion, as much common sense as I can muster (which isn't always a great deal) and true facts form genuine studies.
People still want to disagree though , which is fair enough

[miserybusiness]

Yeahhhh I never got that clothes thing, the clothing you wear has absolutely no correlation to rape. If that were the case, chicks in countries where burqas and hijabs are the norm would be completely safe from sexual abuse. But they obviously aren't.

[LogicBomber]

Locking your car has no correlation to car break ins happening.
Keeping your kids inside has no correlation to kids going missing.
Hiding my money and jewelry has no correlation to being robbed.

These things all happen regardless of the precautions you take to protect yourself from them, but that doesn't mean we should stop doing things to protect ourselves from them.
You STILL lock your doors, watch your kids, hide your valuables... take personal responsibility for your safety and not expect bad people to just "learn" not to be bad people.

Why is it so hard with this topic to grasp the simple concept that what you wear doesn't "create rape', but it does reduce the possibility. Logic tells me that if a rapist had in their mind to rape and was given the option between a person in jeans which would be hard to get into and a girl in a miniskirt going commando... seriously... like an unlocked car door... It only makes sense that the easier target will be hit. Therefore, Protect YOURSELF!

[LuckyLittleLucy]

@LogicBomber
You'd think so, but it's really not true! @mithramitzmittu got raped wearing jeans. (No offence to you- I'm literally just speculating) But she's probably worn "provocative clothing" and she wasn't raped then.
If you want an extra reason for that, see my comment on the 1000+ rapes of men in London.

[FidemMeam]

You don't have to take it all the way to say "men's natural state is rapist." I have plenty of self control but I don't like seeing a woman flaunt her hot body all over the place, because it is sexually tantalizing to me and it bothers me cause I cannot have her. It makes me depressed or resentful without even knowing her, because I just see a beautiful woman whom I can't have.

I don't see a barely clothed woman as lacking self-respect. Just the opposite, I see a narcissistic and arrogant woman who wants to show off her body. Instead of keeping it something only her husband sees, she wants EVERYONE to see how beautiful her body is. Which I don't like, but nevertheless I respect her right to show it. But that doesn't change the fact that if I see a woman like that she is going to catch my eye. I didn't say I would RAPE her, just look at her. Cause that's how men are wired.

[ShaeNielson]

So you want women to cover up, because you're sad, lonely and bitter? I don't see why that is her problem.

[bang678]

you're basically saying you're mad because you know rape is wrong. How a woman dresses is none of your goddamn business.

[FidemMeam]

@ShaeNielson It's not her problem, that's exactly what my point is. You can have an opinion about something without forcing it on others.

[FidemMeam]

@bang678 That's not at all what I'm saying, learn how to read properly. Cause I never said how anyone dresses is my business but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it.

[RexCatholicissimus]

Do some of you people ever get kind of sick of finding stuff to get offended by, then pertinaciously venting that offence onto other people? At fifteen year's old, no less?

I mean it's good to know that young girls are becoming so paranoid about this kind of drivel that I've now got teenagers that aren't even legally able to vote venting to strangers about topics that have been challenged a million times by people far smarter (as well as older) than either of us.

Like, unless you wanna talk to me on Skype and REALLY have at it, there's no point me trying to debate this take because there are probably people in this very comment section that have said everything I would personally say.

[LuckyLittleLucy]

Haha! I don't try to find stuff to get angry at! Honestly, I'm just at that age where you're still naive enough to believe anything is possible and you can change the world but where you're "mature" enough to dsee all the problems that nobody is solving