Involuntarily celibate

[newblinds]

If people are free to choose, then some people will be chosen more than others, and some won't be chosen at all.

It's not probable for everybody to be chosen, because that's not how natural selection works.

Some people will be genetically superior and will be chosen due to that.

Some would be born and raised in a favourable environment.

Some people would learn to play the game and be chosen because of that.

If contraceptives are available then people are free from the worry of pregnancy.

If the culture has lax attitudes towards hooking up then the people will be hooking up.

If you're not worried about pregnancy and casual sex is normal, and there's easy access to every prospective mate within a radius of many miles, then it's only survival of the fittest.

It's a deregulated marketplace where winners win big and losers come away with nothing.

As long as this type of system exists the existence of involuntarily celibates is probable.

When people say they should just get it together, I don't think they're taking the realities of the system into account.

In this type of open system I don't think there is a threshold that the bottom of the barrel can reach in order to prevent the people at the top from taking their mating opportunities, I've haven't seen the point at which that would occur anyways.

If they improve themselves then I think it would come at the cost of creating another one to take their place.

Involuntarily celibates are turning to homicide, and suicide, or lackluster societal contributions in general.

I read that social mobility is lower in more unequal places, so maybe the desperate measures are a symptom of low "relationship" mobility and higher inequality.

It would seem like there could be some kind of outreach programs for these types of people. Something different from the regular mental health spiel, since I don't think the problems can only be chalked up to a mental illness, hopefully something acknowledging their specific situations.

I know lots of people hate involuntary celibates, or they don't care about them, or they come up with any number of negative associations.

My situation of not finding relationships has been similar and nearly unchanging to this day.

Probably other stuff I didn't say or whatever things didn't add up, my thoughts going into the abyss.

I almost feel like it's not even a thing anymore, questioning whether it's only like me and one other person on the internet at this point.

#incel #foreveralone

[RolandCuthbert]

How do you reach someone, who is determined not to be reached? Incels insist their issue is not one of changing their behavior or improving themselves. They claim "society" has done something to them. Society is not going to change for you. You have to change to fit in.

And while you might think that makes you inauthentic, it is basic truth. No one is saying you have to change your morals, your ethnics or your core personality. But you have to become more social. You have to interact with women in a social setting and learn social graces. You have to learn how to make yourself and your life interesting. And you can do that. Because I have not met one incel who was not intelligent. Intelligence is sexy. You just have to dress it up properly. You can't be smelly. You have to dress in better clothes. You have to talk about things that are interesting. You have to be activated and involved. You have to have interests and hobbies. The weird thing is that most of you guys do that now. You just hide it from the world.

But the basic fact is incels get more pleasure having pity parties. They actually think their loneliness is romantic somehow. That their struggles are supposed to be compelling to women. Women almost never fall for someone they have to feel sorry for. They are women.

You guys are treasures. But if you don't treasure yourselves how can any woman think you are worth the effort?

[newblinds]

Good question, how does one reach someone who is difficult to reach.

I don't know if they get more pleasure out of pity parties, I think there are factors in society that create a group of people who would end up losing out.

I don't think they state those reasons in order to attract women though.

You can treasure yourself and have others not see you as a treasure.

[RolandCuthbert]

Sir, I have never met an incel who wanted to get out of his situation more than he wanted to feel bad about it. I have never met an incels who said. . ."dude, I will do anything to get out of this. I would do anything to feel better about myself".

Their focus is always getting society to feel bad for them or to feel bad about their plight.

There is no way out of that black hole. It is a circular logic that leads to one conclusion, death, destruction and misery.

And look at your answer.

"You can treasure yourself and have others not see you as a treasure."

Young man. . . may God give your soul peace. Because a soul that that actually thinks that is reality is in deep deep despair.

Think about that statement. Use your intellect.

If I think myself a treasure. . . what does it matter what other people think?

[newblinds]

I don't think people in general go to great lengths to get out of their situations, I think there are things outside their control that can put people where they are and they backwards rationalize how they got there.

I think society can change to help them, since if they could have helped themselves then they would have done so.

Ya, it's just if I think I'm alright but no one thinks I'm a treasure then it matters because I'm interacting with others.

[RolandCuthbert]

You compared incels plight to Civil Rights. And in this post you claim people in general do not do anything to get out of their situation. You need to read about the Civil Rights movement.

I would not even be able to post in this forum, without "Black" people who were murdered, tortured, beaten. . . made fun of, ridiculed, humiliated and worse. I am not sure how they did not do everything they could to get out of their situation and improve their lives and the lives of every "Black" person around them or who would come after them.

And maybe that's what makes the difference between us. I looked at my plight and saw that maybe it was a little bit ridiculous to complain.

And you keep missing the point. There is no help for a person who refuses to help themselves. An incel who will not commit to doing everything he can to lift himself out of his situation cannot be helped by anyone outside of the hole he refuses to climb out of.

You can't even figure out what that help would look like or how it would manifest for the rest of your life.

As for thinking yourself a treasure. . . son. . . people in this forum think I am a member of an genetically inferior group of human beings. . . just because they think they know my skin color.

Maybe I can live in this society while people think that. . . and still know I am a treasure. I am praying for you son. . . because you are determined to have your fantasy. I cannot stop you from doing that. Only Christ can.

[newblinds]

I gave that example to show that society can change to address issues rather than saying it can't change and it's all up to the individual. I gave a different example about poor people in my other answer.

Yep, I think people happen to end up in situations and it's not necessarily because they did a great effort to get there, I think it's completely true not everyone is overcoming these hurdles by themselves.

Probably lots of black people didn't do everything they could to get out of their situations, but they did experience those things that's true. I think other people in society helped black people a lot and it wasn't all on black people to do it themselves.

I don't know why you keep putting "Black" like that. My comment wasn't only about black people, and it doesn't bother me to refer to people as black.

I disagree, people can help those who can't help themselves. And ya, not everyone is doing everything they can like you're saying, incels probably try, it's not that they refuse to do anything.

Well people with a problem wouldn't necessarily know how to solve it, others can be equipped to study it and implement a solution as well.

Ya, that is bad that people judge you by your skin color.

It's not a fantasy to see that others can help disadvantaged people, it's not only about the individual.

[RolandCuthbert]

Son, you do not understand the concept of race. If you want to start a thread on the concept of race, I will happily participate to show you how the concept is a lie. That's why I put quotes around the words "Black" and "White" when it comes to talking about groups of human beings.

Please stop being triggered so we can talk about incels.

So your comparison is beyond disgusting again. Because "Black" people in America changed this society. And if they did not expend the maximum effort. . . this is so disgusting because many "Black" people were murdered horrifically. And you are comparing your inability to get a date with that.

Mary Turner was lynched. She was stripped naked, hung upside down, set on fire, while people carved her unborn baby from her stomach. And you are actually comparing your situation to that.

I could not be here without her sacrifice. People had to wake up and see. . that was beyond wrong. That was demonic. But you can't see it because at the end of the day, I am not really talking to a person who has the values of hard work and self-improvement.

Perhaps the real issue with incels is that they are extreme narcissists with a total lack of empathy?

Maybe that's why the are alone and refuse to do what is needed to meet people, gain confidence and find happiness?

At this point, with your circular logic, i can't find anything else that makes sense. I mean, you are actually refusing self-improvement. . . you are saying society must bend to your will.

I asked Christ to help you out. Believe me. I said prayer for you.

[ObscuredBeyond]

What creates monsters isn't lack of sex. What creates monsters is a firmly held false belief by some that only material success and sex appeal give someone value, and that subjecting someone lacking in any of these areas to all manner of abuse is therefore justified.

If a man offers his first aid kit to a woman who just injured herself, and her reaction is based solely on whether ot not he has sex appeal in her eyes, it makes her a stupid asshole.

Kick around the Samaritan enough times out of ingratitude, while reducing him only to his Hot or Not score, and your shallowness will breed his wrath. Until one day, he goes full Joker.

Yet, his lack of sex becomes everyone's focus anyway. Anything, to evade responsibility, while remaining obsessed with sex.

[newblinds]

I'm trying to upvote this but I'm not putting all the ideas together.

It's about the dangers of society putting value on sex and relationships and stuff like that? Because if people are judged by appearance or their success in dating instead of their actions they become resentful?

It's sympathetic to the people who can't get any because of the abuse they are subjected to, or I didn't get it completely?

[ObscuredBeyond]

I'm saying if someone goes his whole life being judged *exclusively* on his sexual value / material success as a determiner of worth, and then is deemed by society to be "worthless" and "undeserving" of even basic respect, and this is used as a justification for abuse and mistreatment, and he doesn't believe in some higher moral order to restrain him, then revenge against those who were cruel to him will consume him. And those who see *only* sex and money, will become his prime targets. In a Jason Vorhees sort of way.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about: I was talking with the desk gal at my dorm one day in the fall of 2009 about some song. She said she'd like to hear it. I told her I had it on my LaCie drive, and could bring it down to the hall if she wanted an MP3 sample.

She nodded, so I told her I'd be right back. I retrieve the hard drive with the song on it, and the hall director pulls me aside, claiming that I'm "sexually harassing" her.

What a crock! The song wasn't even about sex!

Now, I have high morals, so I stated my case in self defense in a civil manner. But someone who doesn't... would probably have gone postal over that BS situation. Beating the crap out of that hall director and out of the girl for lying, and for staging an obvious setup.

[ObscuredBeyond]

What I'm saying is, subject someone already on the fringe to enough of that throughout his life, and it won't be lack of sex; but discrimination and prejudice, that fuel his rage.

That if you believe his lack of shallow criteria meeting justifies framing, lying, berating him out his lack of sex appeal, making assumptions about him, kindergarten-style bullying him suddenly being okay, etc., he isn't going to be chasing after women for sex; but to punish them for making his life harder than it already was.

If he walks by somewhere, minding his own business, and she points to him and tells her friends: "I'll bet you anything, he f*ks cats, because he's so unable to date...", and nothing is done to her for saying this...

That's how you create vengeful monsters.

[Anoniemus]

I don’t agree. I feel like this coddles first the Elliot Rodgers. Sorry that natural selection doesn’t choose some men but that’s how it works.

I personally don’t feel that any outreach programs should be applicable to them because there are more serious issues out there that men need help with.

Finally, I don’t think there is a system. We’re all different. I think the issue resides within incels themselves most of the time. There’s something about them that turns people away.

[Shamalien]

‘Okay incel’

Predictable as ever, you simply don’t know what you don’t know. If I wanted to bang an obese feminist with a million piercings and tattoos, or even just a foreign woman whos not as picky, I easily could, and regrettably, have. Sorry for wanting a decent woman of my own race (white)

You have no sympathy for the male situation in the modern world and that makes you a heartless bitch. Ill tell u one thing, if u care about children, ud better hope im the one reproducing and you are not, I can only imagine the hell you would put them in, especially if you had a son

[ChronicThinker]

@Shamalien Calling someone a bitch for disagreeing with you? I can't possibly understand why women don't want to fuck you.

[Shamalien]

@ChronicThinker and if u knew me ud know I dont have a problem finding a fuck, its finding a woman worth sharing my life in that is impossible

[RolandCuthbert]

@Shamalien If women aren't worth the trouble, then what are you whining about. Just have sex and live your life.

You guys are just weird. You could just take your tail to Stormfront. I am sure the owners would find a mate for you.

[newblinds]

I don't understand, you wouldn't want someone to reach out to Elliott Rodgers types?

That seems like the main reason why he killed people, since society ostracised him, you then believe that is correct to ignore them even it leads some of them to homicide or suicide?

Another thing I don't understand, you don't feel any outreach programs should be available for them? I don't think that's correct, how would you decide when a problem is worthy of people trying to solve it?

You don't think there is a system? Is there not open competition for as many mating opportunities as one would want? It's not the reality in our culture where the fittest people only strive to have one person, and since mating opportunities are a finite resource the people who are able to get more than one person do so at the expense of people at the bottom.

I don't know what you mean by us being different negating the existence of the dating hierarchy.

[Anoniemus]

What kind of precedent are we setting if we coddle individuals like him because they threaten violence for something that only a small percentage of men are unable to get? Elliot was unstable and had a horrible personality which ostracized him from his peers. There are times when violence is necessary to institute social change, but just to get laid is definitely not one especially when it is not a social issue that affects a majority of people.

There does not need to be money wasted specifically for incels when there are likely underlying issues (mental illness, disability, etc) which cater to those specific areas of which they are affected. There will be, unfortunately, a small percentage of men who will never have sex and I can only imagine the pain they go through (only for non violent ones). But they should seek therapeutic remedies. I don't think it's significant enough to the point where they need their own "space"... especially when there are more serious issues (like the amount of men who are abused. They don't have male abuse shelters. Male abuse shelters are more serious than a man who can't find love or have sex).

No. There's no system where most women seek one particular man. What that 80/20 ratio shows is that, granted, most women might find a few men super attractive. You're completely missing the fact that most don't get those men and settle for those they still find attractive. You don't have to be the best. You just have to be attractive.

And women have different tastes in men. That's what I meant.

[newblinds]

The same precedent that is already set for people who threaten self harm, that we should reach out to them, we already do this.

It's a two way street, one may have an undesirable personality but he doesn't ostracise himself, others are also part of it. The potential cost of ostracism is suicide or homicide, the cost of reaching out to Elliott isn't homicide or suicide.

So when is it appropriate for a minority to resort to violence? By your logic it is never appropriate simply because they are a minority, it's a double standard.

How do you not consider homicide, suicide, or retreating from society a cause worthy of funding?

I don't agree that it's mental illness and disability causing their inceldom, but you would prevent people from finding the cause because you say it's money wasted.

Your point of view would stop a charity created to help incels for example. If the traditional approach to mental illness was fixing the incel problems then we would not see incels, other methods deserved to be considered, what good would it do to prevent people from finding out how to solve this issue. Saying they should just go get treatment clearly does not work.

You consider male abuse shelters to be more serious than incels, but incels are killing themselves and others, it doesn't make sense to see their issues as not serious when these are the outcomes. Also, I don't know where the idea of incels needing their own "space" is coming from, but it doesn't prevent anyone from creating male abuse shelters if they decide to.

[newblinds]

I'm not talking about the 80/20 rule per se. And your hypothesis that women have different tastes doesn't take into account that some men are picked more than others, it isn't a situation where there's an equal distribution of desirability.

You disagree that our culture encourages hookups? The dating hierarchy is an open system where the most suitable can get as many mating opportunities as they please. It's not accurate to say they are only going for one person and staying with them, those who take multiple opportunities are taking from a finite resource at the expense of those at the bottom.

It's inherent to any open competition, the issue for me is those at the bottom are spending inordinate time there. Probably because of higher inequality and lower mobility. And I believe other strategies should be considered because the price of not addressing the inequality is higher than the cost of paying it attention before it blows up.

[RolandCuthbert]

He killed people because he was a murdering psychopath. Why would you make excuses for what he did. Surely, I feel bad for guys who feel ostracized. I am here trying to help those guys. But some of you insist that you do not want help. Or that society has to change. . . and not you.

You feel like you are all alone and cut off. But you are not. All of you can be happy. All of you can find the love of your life. But it takes the courage to change. How many times and in how many ways does this story have to be told to you? Stop isolating yourself. Stop just hanging out on the net and finding the worst places in the world to meet trolls who only tell you negative stuff.

You have to get out. You have to meet people, find common interests, have fun, see new places and get exposed to new things.

And if you do not, it was your choice.

We can only help you. We cannot change this world for you.

[newblinds]

Would you also say that we shouldn't have changed society for people of colour or for women? I don't see how it's reasonable to be against societal change just because it's societal change.

How would it be helpful for us to not know what led Elliott Rodgers and others like him to those acts? What we've been doing hasn't been working, so it's reasonable to look at other actions we can take.

It's not accurate that all incels can be happy, our cultural dating hierarchy is an open competition where people at the top have multiple partners on the go of they choose to, and it's at the expense of people at the bottom since mating opportunities are a finite resource being competed over.

I agree with your self help advice getting out etc... I don't think that's all there is to this.

If all it took was telling people to get out more then it wouldn't make sense for them not to do it. So I'd be obliged to find that reason to treat the condition, instead of repeating the same advice over and over.

[Anoniemus]

@newblind

The hookup culture has nothing to do with dating. Actually, it's highly beneficial for men because it's easier access to sex. If you can't get sex by that, then you're likely never going to get it (this excuses men who want deep meaningful relationships of course). Hookups allow people who don't want relationships to have casual sex which is great because then it becomes simpler for people who DO want relationships to find each other.

No. There's no sympathizing with Elliot for me. He was a creepy asshole who sprayed orange juice on people from a water gun because he hated being a virgin and felt he deserved a beautiful woman. He failed to look at himself and chose violence when he could have went on various different paths. Society didn't create a monster: he already was one because of his thought process (not to mention that he was racist. Have you read his manifesto?).

... Do not liken incels to oppressed individuals. No one owes you sex or a meaningful relationship. That is selfish. Incels are usually the cause of their own demise. Incels are making it seem like it's impossible to find a relationship and as I've said, it is very hard for a minute number, but it's not something that is impossible. Do you want to know the reason why a lot of these men on GaG are incels? It's because of their personality. Stop blaming other people for your situation in life and seek to make it better.

[Anoniemus]

It would be an egregious waste of taxpayer money to target a minute portion of the population. You don't see that? Most men aren't dealing with this issue: it's a small number of people. So I think it shouldn't be done. Make a support group if you want (Incels Anonymous) but I don't think any funds should go towards it especially when many of these Incels are either violent themselves (which a support group or charity aren't going to help them. They just want to get laid) or Incels have resigned themselves to their fate. There are more abused males that actually need shelters and government funding so I think they're much more important than Incels.

Lastly... lol... your whole spiel reeks of selfishness, I'm sorry. Just because you're spending time where you don't want to be doesn't mean that others should be forced to do something that they don't want to do. Let's say that there is equity in the dating scene (women pay equally for dates and ask men out). What makes you think that if it hasn't happened NOW that a woman will approach you? To me, it seems like a lot of you don't do anything except complain about your plight and concoct crazy rationalizations to fit your theories (Chad, 80/20, the various colored pills). Have you looked at YOURSELF and seen that there might be something wrong with you?

[Tentia]

You're both wrong. Deal with it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to take an hour to explain why in a reply.

[Tentia]

See you in the PM's!

[newblinds]

No, hookup culture is part of dating culture, they often happen simultaneously, someone hooks up but ends up in a relationship or someone wanted a relationship but just ended up hooking up.

On the surface you could think easy access to sex benefits men, but it doesn't benefit all men, it benefits some men disproportionately.

An open market where people can get as much of a finite resource as they want doesn't make it easier for everyone to have access. It makes it easier for the fittest competitors to take at the expense of the least fit, so it's more difficult to get sex in this environment. It would be easier for men if the culture was more focused on pairing up instead of sleeping around with many different people, because then it would be closer to one to one ratio.

You can say Elliott failed to look at himself, but the result of ostracism was a killing spree, why continue the same strategy then? Why not attempt to reach out to people like that to see if you get a different result?

I agree that killers can be premade, like genetically predisposed, but society also creates killers when they aren't treated well. I didn't read his manifesto, I think it would be boring.

Incels are a disadvantaged group of people, they are oppressed by the inequality in the relationship hierarchy and some stay at the bottom for an inordinate amount of time leading to undesirable outcomes.

It's a part of the human experience to desire relationships. I don't think it's helpful for people to dismiss them and tell them to make things better, some of them have not been able to make things better so it would make sense to try another way of addressing the issue.

[newblinds]

I don't know if it's a waste of taxpayer money to target issues that impact a small percentage of the population, the money would be in line with what people think is a worthwhile cause, but it could also be addressed by non governmental agencies.

True, alcoholics anonymous seems to help some people, so whatever similar setup for incels could be helpful.

I don't see why a support group or charity would not help people just because they are violent or have given up on themselves.

I don't think I put forward the idea of forcing people to do what they don't want to do, not sure what that is from.

I think women's and men's mating strategies are not the same, so they would have to become more similar through culture or evolution, because a woman asking a man out would still go for the equivalent or higher value male and leave the bottom ones out.

I believe there is a Chad archetype, people who have much more success with mating exist.

And the 80/20 I don't believe in exactly but I think it's true that men have been left out in ways women have not.

And I believe the pills do have points about the nature of relationships between men and women.

I don't think it's true that incels have something inherently only wrong with them, others could have something wrong with them for ostracizing the incels.

[newblinds]

Am I getting one of those long PMs to say I'm wrong as well? Or just the other user?

[RolandCuthbert]

@newblinds Your comparison to racism, sexism, anti-semitism, etc. is disgusting. People cannot do anything about their skin color, the parents they were born to or what sexual organs they have. An incel can do something to gain more confidence.

Mr. Newblinds. . . you are going to die. So am I. So is everyone in this thread. And at the end of your life, will you have regrets that you did not do everything it took to gain more confidence?

That was the question that turned my life around. Was I going to be happy with my life after my loved ones put me into the ground? My answer years ago was "no". So since that was the case, what was I prepared to do to get out of the house, to get out of my depression and try to find happiness?

The question is so important because it goes to the heart of the incel argument. You want someone else to come and save you. Why can't you start a group? Why can't you talk with other incels and set up something like Alcoholics Anonymous? How am I supposed to do that? I mean, I know a bit of the incels plight. But I was just not willing to lay down, to continue to be a hermit and watch life pass me by. And I found the courage to approach and ask out the most beautiful women, I had ever seen. So I am not a good candidate to help you. In fact, no one who is not a current incel is capable of doing that.

Believe it or not, it is a choice.

[newblinds]

I see what you're saying, it's more of an example of us changing society, and not leaving it all up to them, so changing society is possible to address issues successfully.

Other examples would be poor people, they can by your logic just stop being poor, but there's things we changed in society to help them instead of just telling them to improve themselves.

I would prefer to not have existed, I do think it would be great if I didn't wake up one day since I'm afraid of the physical process of dying.

Well I could start a group, and that would technically be society reaching out to help them.

I don't think you have to be incel to help incels, anyone could learn how to create an incel treatment program.

I don't believe in the concept of things being someone's choice or not, I think there's genetic physical and mental factors, and your personality traits are not chosen and are stable and not changing a lot, and whatever environment you happen to come into that would give you advantages is random as well.

I don't think we're blank slates to be able to choose anything, I think our experiences shape us.

But I don't want to say the point of view of hard work, self improvement etc... is wrong, I think it is useful as well.

[RolandCuthbert]

But it isn't comparable to poor people. You claim that society must do something to save you. There are plenty of people who were poor or who are poor now who are doing everything they can to change their situation.

You see, your default move is not to say, this is what you are doing to change yourself. Your default move it so blame society for your plight. And when someone tells you its about you, you go and actually try to find a situation you claim is similar. Oh. . ."Black" people were helped by society. They did not save themselves. So then you can revert to your comfortable behaviors that yield no results, by your own admission.

You are beyond my reach and the reach of every human being who tries to save you, because you do not believe you had to expend maximum effort to change yourself. Its like you refuse to believe you are doing anything wrong. Society is the wrong "one", so it must change.

That's why I am praying for God to reach you.

I can't.

[Hunter7754]

@Shamalien Geeze dude calm the fuck down, its not her fault you can't get sex

[newblinds]

No, poor people aren't doing everything they can to change their situations, but we still help them as a society.

No, I'm saying that disadvantaged people didn't do it all themselves, not just black people, and they don't do everything they could to change, and that there are things outside your control that impact people's outcomes.

No, not every human being is giving their maximum effort who receives help from others.

I'm not saying I'm doing nothing wrong, I'm saying it's not right to say it's all on them to fix their problems, and that society has changed to address issues even when people aren't doing everything.

I'm not a religious person but that seems alright.

[RolandCuthbert]

You simply refuse to use logic. So at this point, I dunno. I know you need spiritual help. You might need professional help also.

Poor people are still poor. You get that right? I can see a poor man outside a Walgreens and give him a dollar. He will be grateful. The next day he will be there again needing another dollar. There are poor people like that. And they will be in that situation until they make an effort to change it. Who knows maybe they are attempting to change it now. But certainly not all of them are.

So what do you think you need in terms of help?

1. Do you need prostitutes?
2. Do you just want beautiful women to volunteer to give you sex or encouragement no matter how disgusting they think your views are or how bad they think you are as a person?
3. Do you think you should wear a sign that says you need people to be nice to you, then people follow suit and treat you well.
4. This should happen for the rest of your life?

No one can say this line of thinking is ridiculous at this point. This is basically what you are saying.

So there is no real connection of your thinking to the real world at this point. Its like you have surfed the internet for years now and you live there in the land of fantasy and conspiracies. You don't see the need for actually meeting folks face to face so you can be confronted with reality and begin the process of changing your life.

[bente2]

Looool this guy... tells you to call him incel then gets mad if you do🤣 he’s one of those annoying ass whiney ass men huh. Wouldn’t even respond to him hon, he doesn’t seem to want to listen anyways. Lost cause.

[Tentia]

We're talking about it, him and I, and working on how to go about this. Anon, on the other hand, is private, so I can't help her yet.

[RolandCuthbert]

@Tentia He maybe that other guy who started all those threads on "White" women who only date "Black" guys. I talked to him in PM for weeks.

He just wants attention.

[Anoniemus]

I'm going to condense my points with numbers.

1) No. Hookup culture is not synonymous or any part of dating culture because it has nothing to do with dating. That culture is strictly for hooking up and some do this by any means necessary (which means lying to people). Plenty of men take part of it and they enjoy it since they can have sex without relationships.

2) "How would it be helpful for us to not know what led Elliott Rodgers and others like him to those acts? "

We DO know. He blamed other people for a situation that he caused himself. His personality was repulsive. He didn't deserve to get any woman because he treated women like mere commodities or prizes to be won. He didn't want a meaningful relationship: he wanted to remove his virgin status.

No one should feel bad for him. I don't. Are you suggesting that selfish, horrible, racist people shouldn't be ostracized because that doesn't make for a healthier society. The benefits of the majority of people should come before the minority. It doesn't benefit society in any way to help these people when there is an abundance of facts refuting their beliefs... yet they refuse to listen. They are at fault.

[Anoniemus]

3) You're mistaking this issue as a societal issue which is wrong. A societal issue is a common problem that influences many people in society. If the majority of men were suffering, then I would agree. The fact is... most men aren't. Average men are able to find sex and relationships. The issue is with the the bottom left of the distribution: the unattractive males.

It isn't a surprise that unattractive males aren't getting laid. There shouldn't be an expectation of men being able to get laid period. Even when women had less rights, there were still men not able to find women. But this number is significantly low. Not to mention women aren't interested in unattractive men. We're particular for a variety of reasons and choosing an unattractive mate can be EXTREMELY detrimental.

There have been times when women couldn't be choosy and you know when they were? When there were less men than women, so women had to take what they would get (an example is when men were killed in WWII).

4) Many people are disadvantaged in much more significant ways than lack of sex. So it comes across as nonsensical that you're arguing from a position of ugly men in physicality or personality being ill-favored (as is common in natural selection and many animal species when reproduction is viewed) being more important or even similar to black men being jailed for longer sentences than white men (racism) or motherhood being costly for women in the workplace (because she makes much less compared to a father with a child).

You're selfish and I don't think anyone with this mindset should have anyone.

[Anoniemus]

5) It's a waste of money because it doesn't favor the majority population. Is everyone or most of the target population getting a benefit from it? No. The target population would be men but most men already have access to sex. So you want money to be spent on about 1-2 percent of the population?

Let's compare this with abuse. I think around 23 percent of men in the U. S. face abuse. It's still not a high percentage of men but that is an alarming number of men to deal with any type of romantic abuse. There aren't shelters or support centers for these men though society is slowly beginning to acknowledge what a lot of men face.

And you think YOU deserve funding rather than a man who has had his genitals cut off, face smashed in, psychologically abused etc? You... the 1-2 percent part of the male population who aren't able to get a mate? That's insulting to those men who have suffered.

6) For argument's sake, let's say there is a charity or support group (which can be created for free) for incels. What would it entail? What would it do? Why should money be donated to men who can't get sex? How is talking about your depressing lack of a sex life in a group going to make you feel better about having a depressing lack of a sex life?

It doesn't make sense. You band together to share experiences of not having sex... but it's not going to make you feel better. AA is a support group of people struggling with alcoholism and they get strength from each other in that. Your struggle is... what? Crippling depression and loneliness? Because therapy can help with that. You're a virgin? Well, if you have limited options, it seems likely that you might as well go for a hooker. You're unattractive? You can't help that. So what's the point of a support group? Your personality sucks? It's not a surprise why women aren't attracted.

To me it doesn't make sense.

[ThisDudeHere]

@Shamalien you're just proving the other sides point, dumbass

[Tentia]

I mean, they both have points, honestly, but hers ARE more valid.

[Robertcw]

I have to say I disagree it's a waste of money to supply therapy to mentally ill people. That is simply wrong, wrong, wrong.

Mental illness will always be a minority problem. Therefore this notion of it doesn't support the majority, therefore it's a waste of money is actually kinda dumb. Especially if mass shootings could be prevented as part of the result.

I see this phenomena, in both male and female incels, as just a part of the class warfare and political revolution taking place in the united states.

The underclass is stealing power away from high class individuals in order to restructure society to be more egalitarian. As such, it is only natural for people on top to feel grossed out. But ultimately, things like body positivity and socialist fiscal policy will level the playing field and shift cultural norms and beauty standards sooner or later.

[Anoniemus]

@Robertcw Who said it was a waste of time to supply money to the mental ill? Did you even read?

Most incels aren’t mentally ill but they don’t need a support group for just INCELS when any issue they have (especially with mental illness) already exists.

Please stop commenting if you’re going to add nonsense.

[Robertcw]

I think it is a mental illness. It's not nonsense. For example, if people have social anxiety then there is a CBT group therapy support group for them.

Alcoholics have support groups.

... A la, there should be incel support groups. Ostracizing is the worst possible solution; that's the cause, actually.

[Robertcw]

And also, I would expect that at least 90% of all incels have insecure attachments to their mothers and/or suffered childhood emotional abuse.

Normalcy does not apply to the teenage incel, for their lives were very likely not normal.

I think what happens with people who come from good families and great childhoods is that they assume everyone has their same early life experiences -- never stopping to consider that maybe someone was emotionally abused by their mothers growing up.

From this frame, of course what an incel like Rodger is saying is just so off the wall crazy. But in fact he was abused. And for an abused person, the stuff he was saying is to he somewhat expected. Which is the point.

[user0000047]

@ChronicThinker Telling people that they deserve to die alone and they don't deserve to be helped. Thats pretty fucking mean.

[user0000047]

@Robertcw Incels were typically the kids that got bullied. The kids that spent their lunch break hiding in the bathroom. Not because they were afraid of getting beat up by bullies but because they were afraid they were seen as total losers to everyone else. Everyone talks about incels not having relationships with women. It goes beyond that, these people don't even have any friends and sometimes family. They are entirely alone with their own thoughts.

I find it very ironic that people promote the hatred and bullying of these people and justify it. Its literally no different than high school bullying nerds to the point they no longer want to go to school at all. These people will say bullying is wrong and then the tell incels stop complaining and die. Incels are already considered the bottom rung of society, more outcast than even the homeless. Then they wonder why incels see everything as a hierarchy.

These posts on this website really remind me that humans are just slightly smarter monkeys.

[Tentia]

You're a cool dude, @user0000047!

[user0000047]

@RolandCuthbert Why are you making such ridiculous strawmen? Nobody said they should all get free women to fuck. The issue is soooo much deeper than wanted to have sex. The real issue is they are ostracized by society. "but they deserve to be for having a bad personality"

These people were the type that got bullied in school and ate their lunches in the bathroom. That one kid that got made fun of for being weird. Maybe he was too shy, maybe he was a little bit autistic. The point is you don't just recover from that. How is a guy who has been bullied his entire life from the age of 12 even supposed to make friends when he is an adult. Can you even imagine being an adult without having any friends or acquaintances or networking buddies. You'd get nowhere in life.

Would legal prostitution help? Maybe, i personally think prostitution should be legal regardless (its her body her choice). What The questioner merely stated is that they shouldn't be bullied in general society as they currently are. But you are literally bullying them. You act like its so easy to pick yourself up from your bootstraps after being anti social for the majority of your formative years, suddenly feeling safe around other humans is not realistic.

[Anoniemus]

@user0000047 Bullshit. Plenty haven’t been bullied and are incels. Incels are individuals that are luckless at dating and sex, no matter what their childhood. Their personality is the issue. They are likely anxious, shy, etc. People who are generally abused in childhood are serial killers. Not incels.

[Anoniemus]

Not to mention the hypocrisy and straw man YOU used by misrepresenting my argument. Who said that incels deserved to die? The fact that i said that there are more important issues to focus on such as increasing desire for male education, abused male shelters and more?

Please shut up and move on. You’re just as dumb as the others defending this stupidity.

[Tentia]

HERE WE GO...

[Midnight_Kiss]

I've been involuntary celibate for almost four years and counting for the simple fact I can't morally be intimate with someone unless i feel something towards them.

[newblinds]

Yes, I am vaguely aware of female incels, which is why I tried to not make the take gender specific, I tried to put it in the "dating" topic but it was moved.

But it might be the issues I talked about would be more geared towards men, since I'm not familiar with the reasons why female end up this way.

I just assume that females have men trying to date them, so it didn't make sense at first glance how it would be happening, where as a man no one approaches me for a relationship and it's constant rejection.

[lucas262]

Demi sexual

[Gavyn]

@lucas262 Not everything is about sex, so why do we have to put a name on everyone’s preferences?

[bangyourhead]

Then it's not involuntary.

[TheFlak38]

Women who claim to be Incels is one of the biggest jokes nowadays.

[Midnight_Kiss]

@newblinds unfortunately not all of us have queues of guy approaching us, I'm fairly antisocial and when I do attempt to socialize I'm extremely socially awkward.

@lucas262 I don't do the labelling thing.

@Gavyn Agreed.

@bangyourhead yes it is, I'm not going to sleep with some random guy my confidence and self-respect wouldn't allow it.

@TheFlak38 what are you trying to say?

[bangyourhead]

the word 'involuntary' is defined as this: "done against someone's will; compulsory". If you're choosing not to have sex, you're doing it WITH your will. So Voluntary.

[ChronicThinker]

Please don't invite me to this stuff.

[newblinds]

I don't know what you mean by this stuff, but also I just invite people who I follow.

What are you referring to?

[newblinds]

I guess if I understood the people upvoting.

It's that they don't appreciate being invited to my content in general? Or to an incel specific issue? I can't know what content people would or wouldn't like.

Unfortunately there's no list I can put you on to omit you from it, I follow a lot of people because I want people to participate in my content by inviting them.

I guess if people don't want to answer then it's fine if they don't... I don't really see the issue with inviting people though.

It seems like it's up to y'all who you allow to follow you, and you're all aware that people can invite you who are your followers. so it's kind of the price you pay for wanting more followers, that you'd get invited at times...

Feel free to do whatever you need to do to address being invited to things.

[Almostoverit]

There are all sorts of serious problems with this. You may not openly admit this, but there is an inherent and implied solution to the problem you are posting. Even though you have mentioned in comments that you don't want to force anything, you have frame the problem as a product of a system. You are clearly advocating that system as a problem, and problems need solutions. The only solution that can be implied is one that regulates the choice of pairing up. You basically imply socializing sex.
The reality of the situation is that yes, some people die alone, never having experienced human connection in the manner you are discussing. Another reality is that if you have determined sex to be of such a high value in your pursuit to happiness, yes; missing that happiness may lead to regret and and you may die an unhappy person. A final, but not the last, reality is that in every aspect of life, there is a parity in who gets what and who does not. If you were to discuss the basic necessities of life such as food, shelter, water, basic human rights; then I am on board with social programs and solutions to minimize those issues. I cannot, however, agree to the concept that sex is a right that everyone should be freely owed... why? Because you are not just asking for that right to be assigned to you, you are also asking for the right of your potential sex partner to have their rights forced into the background in order to satisfy your wants... I say wants because you do not NEED to have sex to survive. You WANT to have sex because of a biological drive that society does not NEED to fulfill in order for life to go on.
There is a distinct probability that there exists those who can do absolutely nothing for their situation, such as illness that prevents them from fulfilling that drive. However, by and large the real issue isn't that you can't have sex with someone, it's that you choose to wallow in self pity and entitlement, hoping that sex will come to, or be provided for you.
Your implied solution is tragic and disturbing at best. A real solution is for you to turn your focus completely away from the concept of "incel." Focus instead on finding happiness elsewhere in life and I fucking guarantee that enhances your chances of getting laid 1000%. Your chances are infinitely low so long as you are stuck in a poor me attitude. Who wants to be with someone crying about how awful everything is because they are involuntarily celibate? It's a complete turnoff at the least!
Get your shit together man. Life is waiting for you to find it. Get out of your pity hole and find your reason to smile.

[Physics-Man]

If you have the money and time, I suggest you go to Asia and find love over there. I've read a lot of stories of incels going there and banging multiple girls a day.

The Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and Cambodia come to mind. Other places in the world include the Dominican Republic, Colombia, and Brazil.

[Physics-Man]

www.swooptheworld.com/.../

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LJVWc0SdzAE&t=11s

[Physics-Man]

Asian girls and non-Western white girls in general, are superior to Western white girls.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4mgh5_B-nXM&t=28s

[stormbreaker06]

incels like me would still remain "incelly" worse.

[Physics-Man]

Inferior cunt who downvotes me can't stand that Asian women and other non-Western white women are superior to her. Don't listen to these cunts bro! We have every right to be happy and find love. The only solution is to travel! If we don't, we'll be permavirgins for life! That's something these idiot Western women simply don't comprehend because they've never been deprived of love, intimacy, and belonging. They criticize us, but don't care if we end up alone our whole lives! Make the jump and travel overseas!

Even Chad's are leaving the West!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EFMefCTSe0Y&t=43s

[Physics-Man]

@stormbreaker06

How come?

[stormbreaker06]

i have nothing to offer.

[newblinds]

True, going to those comparatively disadvantaged places could theoretically lead to banging many a day.

Things crossed my mind:

I'm taking the women from the men in those countries. like I'm a rich "Chad" from a developed country stealing the finite female resources from them, so the problem is shifted to them.

Banging lots of ladies might not be getting the end game of a relationship, if they're just promiscuous women over there.

If I brought a lady back to a developed country, then perhaps they would see she could easily have better options and get picked up by a higher level man like all the others.

If I stayed in that country, then maybe they do have different cultural values where the creation of incel is not part of their reality for whatever reason.

I think your advice is correct, that if I went through the experience of banging many ladies, then I would go through a type of trial by fire and burn off some part of me and perhaps temper me into a more evolved person from taxing experiences.

[Physics-Man]

@Anoniemus

Sorry, but I disagree with your namecalling.

I'm a combat infantryman in the Army and have been practicing 6 martial arts for a number of years with frequent sparring. I've experienced plenty of turmoil and hard times in the Army which you probably wouldn't endure a single day of. Like getting shot at while crawling hundreds of meters. I'm no "pussy".

I speak multiple languages and have 3 associate's degrees. I double major in Physics and Math and have a 3.7 GPA. I'm also an inducted member in 3 Honors Societies. I wouldn't be surprised if my IQ was higher than yours either.

You don't know me. So don't make assumptions. I've made none towards you. So I think it's fair for you to do the same.

[Anoniemus]

So... you’re a loser? Even white trash women wouldn’t want you dude.

Didn’t you demean Western white women hypocrite?

I hope any woman that you get takes you for your money. No man that thinks like you deserves any woman especially the one that he desires.

(They probably won’t like you because you don’t seem to have much to offer).
:/

[Physics-Man]

@Anoniemus

Loser? After I gave you a sample of my accomplishments? An overachiever like me? More accomplishments than most people? Exceptional trolling ma'am!

Indeed, Western White women have been poisoned with far too much feminism. There are good ones out there, but they're in scarcity. And yes, White trash white women HAVE actually chased me on dating sites; but I don't want them. What did I say that makes me a hypocrite?

But no, I have MUCH to offer. You don't know me ma'am. You can ask my acquaintances or my chain of command, or martial arts instructors, or professors if you need some evidence. Don't take my word for it.

[Anoniemus]

I’m pretty sure they’d say the same. A cuck who with all of his achievements can’t find a good woman to be with because no one wants him.

Arrogant. Condescending. Prejudiced. Ignorant. Not quality traits and pale in comparison to the real good men that are widely available.

The real trash are American men. It’s why I advocate for women to find love overseas because men are more educated, emotionally available, and less prejudiced.

[Physics-Man]

@Anoniemus

I disagree. I'm completely against open relationships or any of their ilk; it's degeneracy and a cancer to the traditional nuclear family.

I already told you that white trash women chase after me. I have had plenty of other higher caliber women flirt with me who weren't up to my standards, those of which are only moderate in level. Do you have selective memory or are you one of those people who suffer from confirmation bias? Rejecting blindly what doesn't conform to their beliefs?

You can call me all the names you like; you don't know me and I myself haven't made any statements towards the nature of your psyche.

Feminism is what's destroying Western women. There's nothing poisoning us Western men which would cause a deterioration of traditional values. Women overseas in Africa, Asia, Latin America, and Eastern Europe have been not been tainted by it.

[Anoniemus]

Sure Boomer. I hope she aborts your kid.

[Physics-Man]

@Anoniemus

Petty, childish insults I see!

Well, it was nice talking to you! Take care!

[Anoniemus]

The racist hypocrite, Ladies. A good one is a dead one. :)

[Physics-Man]

@Anoniemus

So cute! Throwing a passive aggressive tantrum now are we? Give it up already! You're making yourself seem like a butthurt brat! Let it go already!

[Edanurus]

Im not fond of the term incel. I feel that it give a misunderstanding that a night in the sack would cure all there woes when at the end of the day I think the sex part is irrelevant to the whole thing.

I don't buy people who use the Elliot Rodgers incident as a way to dismiss people in that situation. Your telling me that incels are dangerous and unstable, on the edge of a shooting spree yet people who invoke the rodgers name seem to have no qualms about poking the bear. If you really don't care about incels then fine but what about the victims of that person? Is it not worth trying to prevent people from getting to the point where they are willing to maim innocent people for revenge on a world that has nothing but contempt for them.

[Anoniemus]

The disagreement is if it's a societal or individualistic issue. It can't be the former since there isn't a significant population affected by this problem. Most men are able to get sex and have relationships. It's an individual issue which usually stems from the incels themselves (they are very unattractive or have horrible personalities).

[Edanurus]

I agree that it's not some huge societal issue, not yet. but it is growing and I think it's better to curb that before it is.

Also what do you consider a small number in 2008 8% of men had not had sexual contact with a woman by 2018 that had increased to almost 30%. Just over a quarter. Now yes some of those men are gay and some are celibate by choice but even removing them its not an insignificant number. I'm not really worried about incels but I do worry about 'The herbivore man' and i think that a lot of people put them into the incel category too.

I mean people can insult them as much as they want but to me that doesn't say anything about them, it just makes them dickheads who are punching down at losers.

[Anoniemus]

Lack of sexual contact does not equate being an incel. I see that you already accounted for some reasons why some men have not had sex. This is a complex issue though.

1) The majority of incels are not violent. My response is about how he wants to create support groups and charities for them when it's not beneficial and would not help the Elliot Rodgers anyway.

2) This issue is more complex. One of the reasons that more men are having less sex is due to technology which attributes to lack of socialization. The most virgin men are in the group below me: Gen Z. They're also the group reported to be the most lonely and, though it's not a causal relationship, there is evidence that an increasing reliance or use of technology at an early age stunts communicative skills which hinders people in the long run.

So my proposal? Shut off your phone. Get off social media. Get out of the house. Talk to people. I bet that number will decrease if more men did this.

I agree about not kicking a downed dog, but it gets a little irritating when people don't want to listen to advice and constantly combat you. Granted, I'm not the kindest person on here (and I'm a Troll to a lot of people I consider stupid). I genuinely wanted to help him (in my subsequent responses).

Anyway, that's all I had to say.

[Robertcw]

@Anoniemus Actually, for men age 18-29 in the year 2019, 30% had no sexual relations at all. So I think it is actually a social issue, and I think it's tied up in financial well-being and multi-culturalism. Prejudices and biases within certain communities, and the effects of poverty on physical appearance and health.

[Robertcw]

Further, I believe it has a lot to do with the higher college and high school drop out rates for men vs women today in the united states. Young men are earning less than young women across the board.

[Anoniemus]

1) That's not a significant portion of the male population. 1/3 of men in a specific age group does not encompass the majority of men not to mention that technology and lack of communication skills. So no. Not a social issue.

Not to mention that what you've stated is how dating has always worked. Why should a woman go for a man who is a risk to her, unattractive, and lacks a desirable personality?

2) Younger men are earning less but after 30, this flips especially when women are educated. There is a significant lack of desire for men to pursue college and that needs to be looked upon rather than him losing his virgin status (especially since most men who didn't go to college lost their virginity).

[Robertcw]

@Anoniemus Somehow I feel like your definition of incel is different from mine. I am just saying it's anyone who wishes they had an active sex life and there are sexually desirable single people in their area but are unable to convince any of them to have sex with them.

So, not a person who finds all the people around them undesirable or a person who wants to be celibate voluntarily for religious or other reasons.

It's a simple definition. In my opinion having certain personality traits is totally irrelevant to the definition. Either when you want to get laid: you do, or you don't. If you try and don't get laid, then you're an incel until you do get laid; by definition.

[TheFlak38]

Having no woman in your life is not necessarily a bad thing. It could be a good thing. Imagine all the things you can do without a bitch nagging the shit out of you. And if you still want to fuck then prostitutes and high class escorts exist. Don't fall for the shaming language women love to use against you.

[NineBreaker]

You have a problem. We all have problems. What do you do when you have a problem? Seek a solution. Seek assistance. However, you have to have a better attitude. Being frustrated is normal. We're all human, but having that attitude is the greatest hindrance.

Based on my observation over the years, having a defeatist attitude is a major turnoff for women. Don't sabotage yourself further.

[stormbreaker06]

incellhood is the solution. better to die being an incel than being a failure.

[NineBreaker]

What is your definition of "failure"?

[stormbreaker06]

not getting what you want no matter how you try to get it.

[NineBreaker]

Doesn't that mean that accepting being an incel, means accept being a failure?

[stormbreaker06]

Sure. But in nature context if you fail to get a mate then your a loser aka incel.

[stormbreaker06]

We all can't have the looks and skills to be successful in nature. There has to be incels and alphas in order for good genes to survive and keep going.

I'm just doing my part for nature.

[NineBreaker]

Kevin Hart

[stormbreaker06]

Excuse me?

[NineBreaker]

Are you not familiar with Kevin Hart?

[newblinds]

So is it that you don't believe that there is a system at play here?

I don't think I mentioned any attitude I had about being an incel nor about self sabotage. I think I was pointing out genuine aspects of our relationship hierarchy.

You seem to believe telling someone to seek a solution is good advice.

As if people don't know to seek a solution to when they have a problem?

[NineBreaker]

I didn't claim that. I'm just saying that you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. The system is almost ubiquitous, and is often unforgiving and brutal. There's no denying it. I'm just saying that there are ways to get through, around, or beyond it.

For example, @Physics-Man presents an example of that. It's not necessarily feasible for everyone, but it's an option: Exit the system, and join a better one.

Others just exit completely. Hence MGTOW exist.

Others figure their way through. That's why I invoked Kevin Hart. The guy is only 5'+change tall, but he figured it out, and is now a big shot.

[stormbreaker06]

yes but does he have to do with this conversation.

[NineBreaker]

I quote myself:
"Others figured their way through. That's why I invoked Kevin Hart. The guy is only 5'+change tall, but he figured it out, and now he's a big shot"

[stormbreaker06]

money and status.

[Shamalien]

Gotta love the female commenters total lack of sympathy for how natural selection is working against the avg man while showing no gratitude for the fact that she is a woman living in times when no women need go without a man.

disgusting immoral trash. One man for every woman and one woman for every man, this is what we used to have before hookup culture

[bente2]

Gratitude for being a woman🤣🤣🤣 honey I pay money to be clean every damn month, i’m the one that delivers the babies, i’m the one that can’t walk alone at night, i’m the one that will most likely face rape or assault in some point of my life. (And before you say it: yes men are assaulted more often. BY OTHER MEN.)

You’re also all pretending natural selection isn’t working against women as well? I. e.; fat women, I got small tits and men have told me they didn’t want me for those shallow reasons. That’s also natural selection yet you all act like it’s not an issue. I’m also single. And looking, but not finding. Been single FOR YEARS. But I don’t whine, I don’t complain, because I love my damn self. Maybe it’s time y'all losers tried that.

[Shamalien]

@bente2 To women who sympathize with men’s situation I sympathize with them. Can I be more clear?

[bente2]

I’m not looking for your sympathy. I’m asking you to change for the better and stop whining.

[Shamalien]

@bente2 whining? Bitch do you wanna try that again? You sound like the one whining here

[bente2]

There’s no conversation left to have here.

[Shamalien]

@bente2 ur damn right

[babywerewoof]

Maybe if you didn't talk about love and sex like a biologist you'd have an easier time.

"its survival of the fittest, as a female of my species you'd be a prime mating candidate. Shall we spawn and bring forth offspring before the alpha males steal my opportunity?"

If you want pussy think more like a poet less like a scientist

[King_Alt]

The only reason someone is gonna stay like that is if they have a crappy attitude. That is the problem with the incel "community", they never think their attitude towards others is an issue. It's always a "Chad" or "Stacy" that it's to blame. I've seen some of the ugliest people get a gf/bf so looks is only a part of why you are an incel. Change your attitude, and if that doesn't help change your surroundings. Don't hang around with people that aren't going to help you become a better person.

[newblinds]

So there is no system at work here in your opinion?

An open system is where people would rise to the top and get as much as they please, at the expense of people at the bottom who could have nothing.

It doesn't seem like this addresses the contents of the take.

[King_Alt]

@newblinds There isn't a system. You just apparently think that others are at fault when you are the problem.

[newblinds]

So you don't believe that modern society has a system of open competition for mates?

A kind of hierarchy, where the most able to "win" would take at the expense of the people at the bottom?

Mates are a finite resource, and it's not like people are competing to only hook up with one person. The most able are encouraged by our culture to get many mating opportunities of they are able, and that doesn't seem like it would be correct to only blame the people at the bottom for this.

Or you don't think this exists? What do you think we have?

[King_Alt]

1) In over 100 countries (including the US, UK and Canada) there is more females than males, so if there was a shortage males wouldn't be the ones feeling it.
2) Western culture actually discourages having multiple partners, so unless you live in a country that monogamy is legal (not the US) having multiplepartnersis looked down upon.

[newblinds]

I believe you're looking at total number of males and females. Males die off before females so I think there is usually more of them at higher ages, but I believe there are usually more males than females born and the males die off around 30 to make it closer to equal but I haven't checked recently.

Multiple married partners is discouraged but not in the western hookup culture. The most desirable are encouraged by society to get with as many mating partners as they please, it's seen as a positive, especially for a man to get many females, but also by females and their sexual liberation.

I believe marriage is on the decline as well or divorce is quite high.

[bente2]

If you identify as an incel you have severe entitlement issues and are def a psycho. Idc if those people die or are unhappy, sorry.

[newblinds]

No problems, what is entitled about identifying as an incel?

[bente2]

If you say you are “involuntary celibate” it sounds like “everybody’s fucking and I want to fuck. I deserve to fuck.” And sometimes you just don’t. It’s proper nice guy syndrome. There’s real entitlement issues up in there, (if you’re interested, on youtube people will explain it quite well). “involuntary” means against your will. Not having sex is not against your will, because there’s no action. Being raped is against your will, being hit is against your will, being robbed is against your will. People not wanting to fuck you because you wallow in self pity about it is NOT an involuntary action.

[ThisDudeHere]

You do realize that one can make an observation about their involuntary celibacy without feeling entitled to anything?

[bente2]

@ThisDudeHere nah, not really. People that don’t blame others for their own shortcomings don’t identify as an incel. They’ll just say they don’t have sex and that’s unfortunate.

[Robertcw]

Nah it's the same thing in both scenarios. The distinction you're making isn't a real thing.

[ThisDudeHere]

So you're saying a guy with some genetic disease that makes him really ugly and unattractive which leads him to not being able to get laid is by default a psycho? Do you not see the problem with that reasoning?
Yes, there are incels who think they deserve sex, but being involuntarily celibate does not automatically imply you're a psycho, it just means you're unable to get laid for one reason or another.

[bente2]

@ThisDudeHere it doesn’t have to do with the actual not having sex part. It has to do with how you view yourself and others. If you look at yourself as an “incel” you’ll find someone else to blame. I know plenty ugly guys that still get laid or a relationship simply because they put more effort into it and have standards to match. Incels just cry about their lack of sex and acts like it’s everyone else’s fault they’re not ‘getting any’. Sorry, you don’t DESERVE sex, you have to work for it like the rest of us.

[ThisDudeHere]

"it doesn’t have to do with the actual not having sex part" ... um the definition of incel literally involves just that not having sex. You're ignoring the meaning of words.

[noone89]

Nobody knows how to help you because nobody can just force someone to fuck you hun 🙄.

[newblinds]

True, I haven't been in favour of forced intercourse, don't think I put that forward.

However, I think it's an issue worth thinking about when people haven't been able to find relationships for extended periods of time, and it leads some of them to extreme acts presumably from desperation and society ostracizing them.

Not sure what a solution would be.

[noone89]

Nobody does but we know what the answer isn’t, we don’t know why some people struggle harder than other in the dating field and honestly it’s never about looks because all types of people from all walks of life have been able to find love.

[ThisDudeHere]

Incels existing disproves that last statement of yours.

[Dchrls78104]

I'm celibate, too, but only half involuntarily: I'm kinda afraid to date because I'm not cool with oral sex, tattoos, piercings, feminism, and other disgusting things that people in general seem to be into these days.

[bente2]

Then that’s your choice. If you wanna rule out almost everybody, you gon end up alone. Broaden your views my dude.

[Dchrls78104]

@bente2 better be alone than in bad company, always.

[bente2]

None of the things you wrote are “bad company”. You just don’t like em.

[Dchrls78104]

@bente2 they're bad company for me.

[bente2]

That’s true, I suppose.

[Dchrls78104]

@bente2 and all deal-breakers; I could live with none on a girl.

[Anonymous]

I think this is something important to talk about - as in actually talk and not just blame every woman on the planet for this unfortunate state (thank you for not doing that, by the way).
I consider myself a femcel - I'm not attractive, not a social butterfly, I don't party or do any of the "normal" things girls my age do. But I don't hate men.
I think it would be helpful to have some kind of outreach, I know I'm willing to try anything at this point. I'm tired of fighting the system.

[morrowlow]

Sex is not that important. You can have an orgasm anytime you want. A relationship is different though but so many people are lonely now and don't have real relationships so don't think you're the only one feeling like this. And those who berate incels do that only because they're afraid they're incels too and pass judgment as a defense mechanism

[CaptainSmartass]

Maybe these people need to just accept that they're never gonna be chosen. I have and it's a relief. I don't look at women and think "ooh, she's cute", or "babe alert!" I know women don't look at me, so I've grown to accept that, and I've moved on. That's what the incels need to do; move on with their lives.

Simples...

[Jersey2]

Don’t say involuntary celibate. If you accept it and stop really trying, then it is voluntary. There is someone for everyone.

[newblinds]

I don't think it's true, in an open competition (mating) where the resource is finite (mating opportunities/people) and the winners take more than one resource if they want to, it would be at the expense of those at the bottom.

[Jersey2]

There are a lot of lonely women looking for a long term mate and you are ignoring them. They are everywhere. If you can’t get your head out of the thought that you must compete for the best based on you being one of their best options, then don’t compete where you can’t win... go to a place, even another country, where what you have is highly desired. Just don’t treat her like shit because you are more highly sought after there... don’t be the dirt bag.

[bente2]

You’re damn right. Which is probably why YOU ARE dating, I’m guessing?

[Jersey2]

@bente2 I always had dates but now I am very happily married. Even in recent memory since I have been married, women have seriously hit on me although I never considered myself that special in that regard.

[bente2]

If I base my opinion on this comment, she’s a lucky lady :)

[Jersey2]

@bente2 Thank you. We have a good life together 😁

[bente2]

That’s all that matters, eh ;)

[Billlewis]

As far as I'm concerned, the most important thing in the world is not having sex -- it's pleasing the female, and by extension, the guys who are enjoying sex with her. As long as I'm successful in that endeavor, I'll always be happy.

[bangyourhead]

You know when a three-year-old wants a toy and another three year old won't share, they usually either start crying or start hitting the other child to get the toy. Then they cry that it's "not fair". The attitudes of incels are often very similar.

[newblinds]

I don't know if that is an accurate analogy.

I would say it's more like: there are a limited number of toys and some people get more toys and the people at the bottom get zero toys.

I think it's inherent to an open competition, I guess I would say that some people at the bottom are there for an inordinate amount of time, and it seems to lead to extreme acts... suicide, homicide.

Perhaps there is a point in time where other ways to address the issue should be thought about, instead of attacking them and ostracism.

[bangyourhead]

100% accurate. Yeah, there's not enough toys for everyone. But there's enough toys for the vast majority. There's never, ever going to be equal outcomes in this world. So you have to try to make your life as productive as possible regardless. I'm never going to be QB for the Patriots. I don't threaten murder and/or suicide because I'm not on the team.

Because the vast majority of these 'incels' would likely find someone if they quit being whiny bitches, quit blaming women for their shortcomings, grew up and became responsible men. But they want to wallow in their immature, nihilistic attitudes.

[newblinds]

I don't think being Pats QB is similar to the incel dilemma. There are still jobs regardless of whether one is an NFL QB, but it's more like there's not a job available for the incel.

I don't know if there is a threshold for the incels to reach in an open competition where the opportunities would be evenly distributed.

I think they would simply overtake someone else who would then become incel. Some incel seem to be unable to get relationships for many years.

I believe there should be a different strategy available from the ostracism and negativity shown to them, since it doesn't seem to help them and it leads to bad outcomes for everybody.

[bangyourhead]

But here's the problem. You don't want incels ostracized or criticized. But when people give valid constructive help, like showing them how to clean up their lives, take actions to be more attractive to the opposite sex, become more mature and actual men in society rather than children - their response is to throw up nonsensical reasons why it won't work, or attack the people giving the advice.

I've tried talking rationally to one. It's an exercise in futility.

If you think you are an incel, listen to some Jordan Peterson and Patrice O'Neal's Cult of Black Philip show. Work out, get a good job, and some good hobbies.

[newblinds]

I'm not sure about what you experienced personally trying to speak with one, or what happened there.

I haven't tried to convince them of what to do myself, but it sounds like it was frustrating when you gave it a go.

I'm not a fan of Jordan Peterson's rules and his attacks on men. I have listened to his points of view since it seems his attacks are directed at similar people to myself but I don't think it's a good way to call people useless etc...

I don't believe in self-help, I think it's kind of snake oil, or like trying a new diet where you think it's working but then you're back where you started.

I know people say they love his stuff and it helped them, I see it as a bit like some followers from a cult but not as severe as that.

I don't think incels should be beyond reproach but I don't think the way we treat them has been effective, so I think other avenues could be considered since it seems many people find it difficult to help them.

[bangyourhead]

JP does not attack men. He wants men to succeed. You’re wrong in your assessment.

[newblinds]

No, I've heard him call men useless, that's an attack, and I am correct.

He also wants men to succeed, I agree. I don't agree with his rules or attacks calling people names, but I've watched a fair amount of JP and I like other stuff he talks about.

[bangyourhead]

Find me where he calls men ‘useless’. in context.

[newblinds]

I would if I had it saved for this comment thread and to combat JP supporters.

I don't see the value in providing it though, I'm not out to take down JP, I've watched many hours of his interviews and classroom stuff so it would take a long time to find it and there isn't the personal incentive for me to do that.

It's not that he was saying the men are useless like some feminists say, it's that he had some disparaging remark, saying they were useless, about certain men and I don't think it's the right way to do it.

I have no proof.

[bangyourhead]

Right. Listen to the cult of black philip, next.

[newblinds]

Ok, I might remember it. Is it on YouTube? That's where I saw all JP stuff.

[bangyourhead]

https://www.youtube.com/user/CultOfBlackPhillip

[normalice]

The incel thing is just an effort by conservatives to redirect normal sexual frustration against progressive policy.

[Steve37]

INCELS are really good at making excuses and placing blame for their ineptitude. They're simply too lazy to do what it takes to find a girl.

[Steve37]

Of course the INCELs downvoted me... just more placing the blame elsewhere.

[newblinds]

So you don't believe there is a dating hierarchy?

In society the fittest people are encouraged to find as many mating opportunities as they like.

People to mate with are a finite resource, so if more than one is tied to someone it comes at the expense of people at the bottom.

Is there a threshold that every or most incels could reach where the opportunities would be evenly distributed? I don't know if that happens in a competition.

[Steve37]

Sure, some people find it much easier to find someone who's willing to habe sex with them, but I've never met a person so horribly ugly that they couldn't find someone with some reasonable effort.