Vegetarians and meat eaters never tire of rehashing this age-old ethical dilemma. Even scientists don’t agree if humans are more like herbivores or carnivores. Most agree we are omnivores, which means we are capable of subsisting on a plant-based or flesh-based diet. On the one hand, people don’t need to eat animals to survive, so perhaps it’s kinder not to. On the other hand, one can look at nature and point out that life consuming life seems to be the general rule. Vegans take vegetarianism a step further and avoid all animal products. Some meat eaters assuage their consciences by eating only meat from animals that were treated humanely.
It's not a moral/ethical question to begin with. It's amoral like having a favorite color or at worst Morally Forgivable. We're pretty universally accepted to be omnivores, but even if we pretend we're not and just eat like we are.
Every study available shows omnivorous diets in healthy individuals delivers best performance and health outcomes by a wide margin, bar none. So if we even just go by a base level, what's best for human flourishing. Omnivore diet wins.
You may have to adjust percentages and specific foods to you individually. But a mix is best for all assuming no crazy health conditions. It's not a matter of ethics to eat best for your health.
Then take into account We're omnivorous and this is how we're intended to eat. That's more credibility. Then just practically speaking the outcome of animals out in the while are to be viciously torn apart till they die or get eaten ass first by other predators.
Humans shoot them and they die in seconds. So at a base level their expected death is already improved by us being the predator species they deal with.
If we aren't the ones eating them we have no incentive to protect them and they go back to widely being eaten by other predators out in the wild, facing even more suffering. Which goes against the vegan ethos of lowering suffering.
Again I don't consider it a question of ethics or morals. But if you do ours is certainly more moral. Because if we are not benefitting from the animals we won't spend our resources to care for them on mass. It's a fantasy idea.
Animals die young in the wild by getting eaten by predators, assuming they were healthy enough to make it through their baby years. It's rare an animal grows old and dies.
A more interesting topic is regarding the pecking order we give animals tho. Why do we hunt deer, care for cows for dairy/kill for steak and care for chickens for eggs/kill for meat, but we love dogs and cats as pets to love and adore in our homes
And we look at Chinese cultures as evil treating dogs the same way we treat chickens. That's an interesting moral question. What makes other species special to us in our eyes
caveat, I am eat a lot of meat and shoot it, so this is not a eco warrior thing.
There is a huge concern at a global level for countries to feed themselves.
one of the biggest problems is how diets in countries such as India and China change as their economies improve.
This is a quote from link to article below
Just 55 percent of the world's crop calories are actually eaten directly by people. Another 36 percent is used for animal feed. And the remaining 9 percent goes toward biofuels and other industrial uses. (Those figures come from this paper by Emily Cassidy and other researchers at the University of Minnesota's Institute on the Environment.) The proportions are even more striking in the United States, where just 27 percent of crop calories are consumed directly — wheat, say, or fruits and vegetables grown in California. By contrast, more than 67 percent of crops — particularly all the soy grown in the Midwest — goes to animal feed. And a portion of the rest goes to ethanol and other biofuels. Some of that animal feed eventually becomes food, obviously — but it's a much, much more indirect process. It takes about 100 calories of grain to produce just 12 calories of chicken or 3 calories worth of beef, for instance. https://www. vox. com/2014/8/21/6053187/cropland-map-food-fuel-animal-feed Good bit from NG
It’s scary how many calories we remove from the human food chain to get a small return from an animal.
Also the numbers for food used in animal feed for the US versus actually eaten.
This means that areas of the planet are putting more effort in to feeding animals than their own population, those with money in some societies will get this meat, while those with less cannot afford it.
with other countries used to simply produce animal feed in exchange for cash, all the time it’s population starves or they get food aid from UN etc.
The domestic animals we eat these days are different to how they were say 300 years or so ago. We have animals selectively bred to provide more meat or milk for less food.
I think the discussion about what's ethical needs to include the way the animal was treated while it lived. Factory farms are deplorable places, forcing animals into tiny cages, standing all day in several feet of excrement, overcrowding pens, removing body parts (such as beaks from living birds), not feeding a natural diet to the animal, and pumping then full of drugs because the conditions make them so ill, etc, is so disgusting and unfathomable to me. Not to mention the sort of degenerates and sadists that those jobs attract, who will physically and sexually abuse the animals that become your kid's chicken nuggets or your Thanksgiving turkey. Makes me sick to my stomach.
I adore animals, but I absolutely do need to eat them. I cannot sustain my body on vegetation alone. I raise my own livestock and I give them all the best possible life I can, and I'm very fortunate to be in the position to do so. I love seeing them happy as they play and clearly enjoy their lives. Their death is swift and harder on me than them, but it's a "necessary evil" as they say, in order for me to stay healthy. There are worse things than death and eventually everybody's time comes up.
Those who say it's wrong to eat something that was once alive have blinders on, because the vegetation they eat *is still alive* while they eat it. Leave those potatoes out and their eyes will begin to form roots, set that celery in a dish of water and that bad boy will form roots and regrow whatever you've cut off from it. People need to shut up about their false morals and just be grateful they have enough options that they can exclude certain foods from their diets. It doesn't make them better people, especially when they want to grief others for doing what's right for them and their families.
Well, years ago I stopped eating veal when I learned that young cows were penned up and forcefed, just as I don't eat foiegras from forcefed geese. Their livers literally burst in size and fat. Just not right.
I've been studying the difference between grass fed and grain fed cows also. It's better to eat LESS meat: use it as flavoring with occasional treats. Eat more like the traditional Vietnamese and Chinese do.
The real problem is how cows cause so much methane pollution and add to global warming. MORE THAN AUTOMOBILES! So, beef should cost what it costs to the environment. Sure, it tastes good, but it's inhuman to ruin life for ourselves on earth. It's inhuMANE to treat animals that we eat badly. The American Indians gave thanks to the spirits of the animals that died to feed them. Current civilization is completely divorced from how, where and what the feedlot treatment of our animals that we eat is.
The secondary problem is this. The WORLD cannot become vegan.
There is not enough arable land mass to feed 10 billion people... our near future population. We need trees to absorb carbon from our breathing. We cannot plow them all down for farmland. So we have to adjust our diets so we will live healthier and for our planet..
You list pretty much all the major positions, except those who thing that to take a life is wrong. No matter how small, whether it feels pain or whether it can scream in a relatable way. Those peoole not only eat exclusively plants, but also only the oarts you can harvest witjout killing the plant. Vegans, where is your ethical consistency? :-D
Now this is a big subject. I sympathize with the idea of reducing suffering, but the problem with life and death is you have to be very clear about definitions. You can't ever kill a human and eat it. Most people couldn't rationally explain why, but they know it's not a personal preference. They think this is sufficiently morally binding that they feel they have the right to use force to stop you. I can't think of a way you could construct an ethical system where killing an animal in cold blood jzst to eat it, despite the favt that you don't have to to survive, would be in any way shades of grey. Either it is murder, or it is not. If it's not justified to use force to actively defend another non-human animal from anyone for almost any reason, or it is not. If it's not, I find it unreasonable to try to shame someone for still doing it. Since I generally found the suggestion that it us unacceptable to own and kill animals unconvincing, it follows that eating meat must be morally permissible. You may prefer to be with other people who have similar preference, but that's about it. Or you need to literally argue its slavery and murder and that is a damn hard case to make. I see people make a case for compassion. But not why I would have to stay away from meat in case I seriously don't care on an emotional level. And that is I think what vegan philosophers need to understand. You have to make the case without relying on the crutch of compassion, or else you are fighting a losing war...
The lack of an edit button is truly maddening. Oh the typos! I meant it is unreasonable to shame people for eating meat if you can't win the argument that killing animals is murder. The sentence structure at the end is all messed up.
I think it is ethical to eat meat, but not ethical to raise animals in horrific conditions for the sole purpose of providing food products for us. To further elaborate these two separate things:
1. It's "ethical" to eat meat. Regardless of whether or not our teeth, digestive systems, etc, are "meant" for it, we can and do consume the flesh of others. But this is life, this is nature. Cows eat grass, lions eat zebras, zebras eat grass, owls eat Tootsie pops, squirrels eat nuts and seeds, mycelium consume everything, etc, etc. A blade of grass is a living organism, and so is a squid. We are all just interacting and just as it's fine for a cow to eat blades of grass or a lion to eat a zebra, it's fine for us to also eat whatever we can.
2. It's not ethical to keep animals in captivity, abused, and miserable by our actions and inactions.
Above is a link to "Dominion", a 2018 film that shows the real life horror show we inflict upon billions of animals globally. Most people cannot watch the entire film, as it is too intense, and because it hits too close to home in terms of knowing that we personally are a part of what keeps this system of abuse and cruelty alive with our financial support of these industries. We literally pay people to do these things to animals for us.
So let's talk about ethics in general first. We have a few ethics that come from values everyone more or less has. "Do not kill", "Do not hurt things for no reason". But there's also more ambiguous ones, take "being wealthy" as an example. Some people would say it's a reward for the effort you put in, others say that having too much wealth makes it so others have less. One rich person could help 5 poor people, for example. Regardless of your opinion there, you can see there's a debate available, there's no clear right or wrong, ethical or unethical. Circling back to the topic at hand, eating meat is similar to that, there is no clear right or wrong, both sides has arguments. There are aspects about it that we can judge, like the example you gave, some people say it's only ethical when "They are not hurt" in the process. We can all agree that the animals we eat shouldn't be tortured for no reason.
So for my opinion, eating meat is neither ethical or unethical by itself, the process of gathering the meat can be unethical and should be regulated to some extent because of that. (Not even mentioned the need for regulation from a health point of view). Luckily it seems that historically people have agreed with this in most countries, as we do have these regulations. A strong exception and an entire other debate is halal meat, where the slaughter of these animals does cause the animals to suffer more. People only make an exception for this because of religious reasons. This is probably going to far into the subject, so I'll just end this with "Don't eat halal, fuck religion".
It's not an "age old" debate. Prior to the mid 20th century it was no debate at all. Like all primates, homosapiens are an omnivorous species.
Science and most religions even agree on this.
I have friends who are vegetarian and vegan but there's no debate. I cook vegetarian food if they come for a meal, they cook meat sometimes if I go there.
I have a problem only with the extremists who try to insist everyone should be veggie. Some people physically cannot obtain what their bodies need from a vegetarian diet. My best mate growing up ended up in hospital for malnutrition after going vegetarian and he ate massive meals.
Nut allergies have increased, cutting off a vital source of nutrition for many would be veggies too.
I've got friends who are farmers and do everything from conception to slaughter on site so they can be certain things are done humanely. I was at one farm on a slaughter day a couple of years ago and saw livestock quietly queuing up for the bolt. No screaming. No panic. Just a humane, dignified end. It doesn't have to be the way the TV always shows it.
This is why the discussion rages on and on. Humans like to compare things they do to nature when it fits their narrative. "Swans mate for life" is supposed to offer prove that animals can be monogamous so humans should be too? Well, certain insects kill their mates after mating too.
Anyway, EVERYTHING about nature is a food chain. Some animal is constantly hunting some other animal for food, except the strict herbivores, who themselves are being hunted for food. So if you're a meat eater, that's your narrative. But since humans don't HAVE to eat meat to survive anymore, there's the vegetarian's narrative. This wasn't wholly the case a few thousand years ago, however.
What if you believe that animals don't have "souls" and they're just put here to produce things that we can eat, like milk, and then be used for meat? That's another argument. But the fact also is that it's much more expensive to get protein from an animal source than a plant source. And what about fish? If humans don't eat them, bigger fish will. How can that be unethical? I can't think too much about it from an "ethics" standpoint.
I can agree on some of that. Well, the huge difference, predators and preys have a purpose to this planet. Humans don't, they just take, kill, destroy for their own greedy sins. Animals make this planet grow, we do the opposite.
As a farmer I'm probably a wee bit biased but yes it is ethical. Vast swathes of land are unsuitable for crops but perfectly good for live stock. If you get rid of meat contrary to what vegans claim we can't use the land to grow veg. Then what do you do with all the animals? Their not pets. With the odd exception of dodgy farms most animals live content well cared for lives and are humanly killed and little is wasted. Compare that to the millions of tonnes of vegetables discarded for being the wrong shape.
freaking lamb is like $12 a lb where I live! smh I want to see it explode and hopefully drop in price lol. Pork is cheap but most pork isn't very good the way they raise em. Bad pork=hella omega 6! Same with farm raised fish. I think Farm Raised salmon has 9x the amount of omega 6 as wild caught and other harmful things. we need better regulation or something I don't know the answer.
what in the hell... thats like Sunflower and Pumpkin seed in the states. Pumpkins are native to here... yet our market is full of Chinese garbage I won't touch.
This is a really good question you asked. I wouldn't say eating meat is necessarily unethical because other animals in the food chain eat each other. Even dogs and cats eat meat and humans consider them companions but not food. I do think the way animals are raised and the farming methods are questionable. I don't agree with them and think they're unethical. I really dislike factory farming. I don't eat any animal flesh except for fish. I'm not sure you consider fish meat. I technically could survive without meat and I could go vegan if I had to to save my life though.
Pescatarian diets are still technically omnivore diets and personally I do consider fish meat. Fish is really good for you though, lots of omegas and fatty acids.
The only thing that's bad about killing animals for food is if they are tortured or treated in an intentionally cruel way. Zero is wrong with any form of traditional hunting, fishing.
Oh, and I've known some vegetarians who preached a lot & when they knew I wouldn't throw it in their face they showed me the other side of their beliefs.. that it's okay to eat meat based soups and other stuff when nobody (who will judge them) is looking. But I guess you can tell who the true vegetarians are in a 1st world society because they usually look sickly. They don't bother to learn how to balance their diet and/or are too lazy to do the kind of daily exercise somebody in a tribal life would have.
I'm an omnivore. In need animal fat and protein to feel healthy. I hate factory farming practices and the idea of treating animals as mere commodities, though. So my wife and I do our best to eat meat from animals who have been raised and harvested humanely. And, similar to Native American tradition, we honor those animals with respect and gratitude.
As you essentially said, much of nature is predator and prey. Predators aren't unethical and they evolved to keep the ecosystem in balance.
Although I honor and respect people's ethical choices, I tend to think that most vegetarians and vegans are privileged and have never known what it's like to survive without grocery stores.
I remember stories from my grandparents who were raising families during the Great Depression. They supplemented their diets by fishing and hunting wild fowl, squirrel, rabbit and deer. I have no ethical hesitation in harvesting non-endangered animals as long as it is done humanely.
I have never flourished as much as I do today eating a 80% meat based diet with only a few leafy greens a few times a week so i'm going to say eating meat is more than okay, it's ideal. My hypertension is gone, my fatty liver is gone, my anxiety levels are down a lot, my depression too. The results for me and my keto diet speak for themselves. And since animals are far more savage and kill each other all the time I fail to see how its not just apart of life. I feel no guilt in eating meat at all. But I would if I let it go to waste in my fridge. If you buy meat I feel that you are obligated to never let it go to waste. Just like with any food but especially with meat.
Its ethical 100% and we totally need meats to survive. America and the privileged west are not the only countries on the face of earth lmao. In some regions crops are impossible tp grow and in extreme weathers ; cold eating fish was the pnly choice and still is and in extreme hot weather eating meat is still the only option as plants do not grow either while exporting and importing is a thing their isn’t capacity to import so much plants so that everyone could have an only vegan diet. Humans do not get the full nutrients we need through just plants either.
We have been eating meat from the beginning of time. We are a mammal just like every other mammal in nature. It's eat or get eaten I prefer to eat. It makes me sick how everybody bases everything on feeeeeelings. It makes no difference to the dead animal whether it was humanely raised or not so why worry about it? If you have that much of a guilty conscience do the vegan vegetarian thing. People just putting undue stress on themselves over meaningless stuff. Be a vegetarian or be vegan, but do it quietly because nobody cares that you are. I don't push the fact that I eat meat on you and I really don't care that you eat rabbit food.
No. It is murder but it is too difficult to resist flesh. So i rather want to eat the flesh of unethical humans. It is better to Kill rapists, pedos and eat their flesh than killing innocent animals. I actually would kill doplhins too. they tried raping humans, and other species. They also kill other animals for fun. Yes they do that because they dont have conscious like humans but i dont care. Such devilish animals dont deserve to live. They also kill other female dolphins babys and gangrape and hit female dolphins if they dont obey. I dont like japan but one thing they do right is killing dolphins. You can watch youtube videos where you can see dolphins that try to rape humans and other animals. The thing is it is not so bad to murder to me to survive etc. But killing for fun and raping is worse than murder to me. Yes animals do rape but most of them to that to reproduce and not for fun unlike dolphins. I hate these satanic creatures so much.
Whether it's ethical of not isn't it important, that word is just a made up concept made by humans.. the fact of the matter is it's natural to eat animal that are below us on the food chain, if you can't handle this cruel reality of nature you wasn't cut out for this world bub, newsflash.. humans aren't the only ones who eat lesser species.. lions kill humans... Whales eat seals.. we're animals after... mammals that evolved from apes in the wild.. if your going to ban eating of meat for us then you might as well ban it for all species.. stop lions killing humans... Stop whales killing seals... but how are u going to enforce this? You can't stop nature... I say jus leave nature alone and let it be.. stupid fucking humans.. stop trying to fix things that aren't broke... It's in my fucking nature to eat a chicken and you can't and won't stop me... I don't give a shit if you're fairy ass thinks it's "unethical". Fuck off
Anyone that claims it's unethical, i don't even argue with them anymore, i just send them a video of an animal eating another animal alive, such as a cow that eats a baby chick that fell from its nest, or a chicken that eats a mouse that wandered into the field. Generally they have no response other than insults.
Come on! You are on a sex site, what else do people eat but pussy cats and roosters? What do you think all our ancestors ate? The American Indian subsisted mostly on buffalo, both for food and clothing and to make their Tee Pees out of. I love a good steak, but also salads. God made all the animals so that man could survive and multiply because when crops were bad during famines/droughts, there was always meat to subsist on.
Well, the Good Book says that in the 1,000 year reign the lion will lie with the lamb and “The wolf and the lamb shall graze together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the LORD. Isaiah 65:25 So that kind of infers that in the Garden of Eden every animal got along together and no one ate anyone.
Quit you drama, deary. It's always been ethical to eat meat, just not always sustainable.
But eating only plants like a fucking goat is not ethical or sustainable at the best of times. Veganism is just food snobbery at best, but can be regarded as a cult.
Yes be careful and regard what you eat. But to think humans can tomorrow magically now live like goats... you're smoking certain plants.
No, I have not been eating meat ever since I came out of my moms womb lol. Some people be saying "OHHH PROTEIN, YOU NEED PROTEIN"
Its whateva man, Maybe cause I never liked the consistency of it. But meat makes you sweat more and is bad more your blood, and makes you gain weight faster.
@Subarugirl maybe. I'm honestly not sure. Its cook you harvest your own. I can't here atm because of circumstance. So I get the organic grass fed, grass finished free range.
Ethical or not I'm still going to eat meat. Also Ethics are a murky subject at best. What was considered ethical at one point wouldn't be ethical at one point in history and the reverse is very much the same. Also people can really create some murky water when they use ethics as a vehicle to push their agenda, beliefs and ideas onto others. Both sides of the debate have created some really murky water.
