Why do women think they need men to protect them?

[Anonymous]

I'm extremely fit, I took self defense lessons, and I carry pepper spray on me. I don't need or want a man who thinks he needs to double as my bodyguard. Why do women seem to feel that they should rely on guys to do this for them instead of take matters into their own hands? Its pathetic really...

Updates

+1 y

Here's the deal, people.. When I was only 15 years old I was attacked by a man who was much bigger and stronger than myself when I was with a girl friend one night. She froze up, but I left the guy with a dislocated shoulder.

Updates

+1 y

It wasn't all that difficult, either. It's a simple matter of mentally preparing yourself for what to do in a panic situation.

[hisangel]

First off, there are pacifists in both genders. Not everyone feels comfortable fighting. It's just more acceptable for a woman to say she wants protection. But there are guys that hang around tougher guys for protection.

My following statements may be harsh but I'm not intending them to be. But I am very concerned by the general naive tone that a lot of women seem to have on this situation.

I don't know your background but let me tell you how it was for me. Where I grew up you had to walk like you had the biggest d*** on the block, even if you were a woman. You had to look like anyone who stepped to you would get messed up. But no matter how tough I looked, having a guy with me pacified situations. No matter how tough you think you are, when you are walking down a f***ing slum with 6 guys standing on a corner eyeing you, it's not a pathetic woman thing to take a guy with you. It's the intelligent thing to do. Girls who think they can handle it are the ones who get themselves in trouble. And if you didn't live with a man, you owned a dog that looked like he would rip someone's nuts off.

I don't want to be cruel but I think it's very naive of you to suggest that every part of this world can be handle with a can of pepper spray. There are parts of this world where even men won't walk down the street by themselves. That's why gangs exist. Because in certain parts of the world, the prideful, who think they can handle it themselves, die alone.

One of the things that is priceless to me about my partner is this. He is the most kind, gentle man I have ever know but he grew up in a bad neighborhood too and you can see it in how he holds himself. Anyone who knows anything knows he will be a problem for them just by looking at him. Not because of how fit he is but because of how he holds himself. There are places I go where I make him go with me. Because I will say it again, having a man with you pacifies situations. Not just any man, but a man that looks like that. It's like having a pitbull on a chain.

I'm not pathetic. I was never allowed to look like anything else then the mother f***ing man! But I have enough street smarts to sum up situations and know that having a man with you that knows how to walk like he is also the mother f***ing man will keep the issue from starting in the first place. He has my back and I know he is good in a fight. It's what they call "An ounce of prevention." Why should I have pepper spray or ever have to show off how I can fight when having a guy stand next to me who looks like he will pull on a knife on you if it turns bad, will stop people from even starting? I'm not going to get stabbed so I can die on a hill of feminist hopes.

You have pepper spray, I have a man. The difference between yours and mine is mine keeps the problem from happening. And if you don't understand that then you haven't been in enough situations where you were afraid for your life.

[colegrl]

Look- the OP posted a short question. We cannot assume what her life experiences are. You feel like you need a man. That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. She doesn't. Nothing wrong with that either. Yes, her last line in the question is a snotty beyond belief, but then again she is under 18 and just getting out of teenage hood myself, we tend to be ignorant and idiots sometimes.

[hisangel]

I didn't assume what her life experiences were. Hence my statement "I don't know your background." But I really suggest you listen to what you are saying cause you have repeatedly defended her. And you have no clue what she means by this. For all you know, she could be someone just trying to start a fight amongst people.

And I don't think she is an idiot. I think the statement was naive. There is a difference.

[shf84]

The difference is your USING your man for a guard dog. Nothing wrong with taking help with you two or three people if you go to some rotted out slum with a bunch of degenerates but it's not a man's job to protect you because he is a man there are men who are no stronger than you are your not talking about a lover or a friend your talking about a body guard and that is pathetic.

[hisangel]

Your theory is that I am allowed to call a bunch of guys to go with me into bad areas but I can't roll over in the morning & ask my best friend because that would be using him? I should make a call to a bunch of friends but not ask the guy sitting next to me on the couch? Can I ask other guys or do they only have to be women? Is there a weight or height issue on the women? I mean if I ask a heavier friend am I using her?

Seriously dude?! I guess it would be OK in your theory if I was a guy

[hisangel]

Asking a more muscular friend to go with me somewhere. That's completely OK but if you have a vagina you better learn to take a punch! For someone who is trying to be a defender of women, you really need to learn that calling women "pathetic' when they don't agree with you is a little hypocritical. Cause you see, my "guard dog" would never call a woman who didn't agree with him pathetic. That's why I keep him around. To use him for sex, protection and his foward thinking attitude toward women.

[shf84]

Asking someone is one thing selecting your mate based on weather they can protect you that's another. If I was going into a slum I might want company to that's a different matter.

I would NOT base my love life on weather they could protect me or not. That's about love for the other person about them their personality their beliefs who they are. Weather their some martial arts champion or in a wheel chair you just don't seem to get that.

The way you go about it is the way animals do.

[aoirthoir]

Colegrl, I agree. But some paint those us us objecting to her language, to be opposed to women defending themselves. We are not.

Hisangel, I gots to friend you! And yeah you are right about those "defending" women on here. Unbelievable the very nasty language they will use ABOUT women.

[aoirthoir]

Shf84 "...USING your man for a guard dog..." ...your talking about a body guard and that is pathetic..."

NO it is NOT pathetic. YOU do NOT get to decide the dynamics of OTHER PEOPLE's relationships and WHY they are in a relationship. That is ONLY for THEM to decide.

Your very words ELIMINATE the bodily autonomy of others. WHY do WE have to meet YOUR standards for being in a relationship or we're PATHETIC?

[shf84]

Well, first off it isn't my standard it just is what it is. What makes you think I'm going to just adopt your world view because you say so? Don't you think that's kind of dumb?

[aoirthoir]

Shf84, PERHAPS you assume I am answering because I think YOU will change. (perhaps not). However, you're posts have been an example of pure woman hatred from the beginning. I don't expect YOU to change at all, because I've learned that those that will address women with such hateful pejoratives as "pathetic" are rarely interested in changing.

[aoirthoir]

It is ridiculous to claim that a woman should be strong enough to defend herself, while stripping her of the very autonomy she needs to do so. ELIMINATING a woman's bodily automony, calling her PATHETIC and using other misogynistic pejoratives will NOT give her strength OR enCOURAGE her to learn ways to defend herself.

The OP and others could have used self worth building language which WOULD encourage women to learn self defense. Instead many of you chose to use disenfranchising language.

[shf84]

You call someone pathetic they happen to be female the one who says pathetic suddenly hates women where do you get this stuff any way? I remember a schizophrenic once I read about that compared a cigarette to a halo in a religious painting because both of them were round.

[aoirthoir]

" I remember a schizophrenic "

More ableist language. Can't defeat the argument so you have to resort to insulting even MORE groups? Look, you can disagree with me all you want, call me an @#$%^ all you want. Using ableist language only demonstrates your mindset.

And I don't care if you call one woman pathetic FOR HER FREEWILL decisions WHICH HARM NONE or one million, it's still misogyny.

[hisangel]

Well I really don't even know if I should answer. It seems like Aoirthoir's got this! See how much fun it is to have a guy defend you?

OK seriously, shf84 you are putting your life experiences in my bag & then blaming me for holding them. I never said that when he & I met he sniffed my butt & I liked his mating dance so we hooked up. I never said I chose him because he can handle himself in a fight.

He is priceless to me for a million reasons but this was a question about men protecting women

[hisangel]

So I'm not going to say "You know what I love? I love when he kisses me on my nose. Oh wait, not the topic but thought I'd just add that!"

I used a metaphor that you didn't like but that doesn't mean that he & I are what you think we are.

From your comment about growing up seeing a severe form of this, I can understand your aversion to this. But there are levels to this. Some men want to protect because they want to dominate. But some want to protect because of the value of those they are protecting

[hisangel]

Some women want protection because they feel like they are in charge that way. But some want it because it makes them feel safe in a scary world & they love the man who is doing that.

It doesn't mean that every man has to protect. It doesn't mean a man is less of a man if he doesn't want to. It just is different for every person. I've had times in life where I was completely helpless to defend myself, no matter how hard I tried. My partner had to step up when he was young to protect his family

[hisangel]

& it developed in him a strong desire to protect at all cost. It works for us because I've had a lack of safety in life & he has developed a strong ability to provide it. That doesn't mean we noticed that the first time we met. Like any relationship you just realize the person is doing things for you that make you feel special or loved. Maybe for you it's that she loves to hear you talk about your day. Maybe that touches something in you that is more than a want but an emotional need.

[hisangel]

You aren't using her because she is a listener. She is just meeting a need in you.

That is what love is. If you want to compare what I've said to the most screwed up version of that, then that is on you. But there are always pure versions just like there are screwed up versions.

If someone doesn't have a need in life, because of experience, to either provide safety or ask for it, that doesn't mean those that have developed that need are wrong.

[aoirthoir]

Hisangel, well said. 84 keeps trying to twist things into a single reason relationship, ignoring all of the other dynamics that go into a relationship. But, if he didn't do that he couldn't call women that want, need or request protecting.

[shf84]

Aoirthoir Is confusing legitimate relationships that are about honest and worthwhile goals and motivations with every sleazy ghetto low live motivation because in his nihilistic view of life every thing goes.

[aoirthoir]

"Aoirthoir Is confusing legitimate relationships"

No. You are confusing YOUR determination of what is legitimate with what IS legitimate. Lovers decide for themselves.

" with every sleazy ghetto low live motivation"

Add this to shf84's conflation list.

" because in his nihilistic view of life every thing goes."

This is another strawman. I said specifically that personal decisions which HURT NO ONE, are ADULT, and CONSENSUAL. But you keep leaving that part out since it hurts your argument.

[hisangel]

Can I politely ask you to continue this fight somewhere else so that I don't constantly get updates reminding me that shf84 thinks that me & the man I love are just trash because we grew up in rough neighborhoods?

Shf84, I've repeatedly tried to explain how we aren't who you say we are & you don't care to hear any of that. So it's clear this is now just a p*ssing contest that you want to win at all costs, that includes name calling. And I'm tired of being p*ssed on over a silly question.

[aoirthoir]

Hisangel, understood, I'll make a post above that shf and I can discuss on. And you aren't trash and don't deserve to be called names.

[hisangel]

Thank you kindly.

[scar1]

Don?t you get sick of being afraid of the world around? And what if the guy with doesn?t know martial art and gets rocked, then what? You would be all set if you just learned some basic martial arts

[hisangel]

First off, my partner doesn't have martial arts training. I didn't say all guys had to have martial arts training. I didn't say I needed to be protected by a guy every second of the day.

I said there are very hard environments in this world where a woman is wise not to walk by herself. If a man walks with her, she wouldn't have to use martial arts training or pepperspray because no one would start anything.

I'm not against self defense. I'm against this idea that both men and women have

[hisangel]

That they can be a one man/woman army. Sometimes back up is helpful. And sometimes that back up is more helpful if it's a man. A man's presence can prevent guys from starting something, even if a girl can fight her own fight.

[scar1]

You might lessen the chances but there is still a chance something could happen and you could be at the mercy of the attacker or attackers. Doesn?t being defenseless to any random street thug scare you? Also like you said he won?t always be there so why not just learn how to defend yourself. Once you brake a few a arms I doubt any one will wanna start anything and then you won?t need any body to walk with you

[hisangel]

In good neighborhoods police travel by themselves. In bad neighborhoods they have partners. They are trained, armed with guns, pepperspray, batons, & bulletproof vests. And in some neighborhoods they won't even get out of their car without calling for other patrols cars to join them even when there are two of them.

Navy SEALs are called SEAL Teams, meaning more than one person.



In the movies it's just Bruce Lee but anyone who has to actually fight knows that you don't do it on your own.

[mmike0]

Answerer you are truly the definition of pathetic and insecure. You need a man to protect you? Wow might as well consider yourself inferior to men, But women hate when men say that.( shaking my head) Be a fu****** person

[peace-love-couture]

Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs:

-Self Actualization

-Esteem

-Love and Affection

-Safety and Security

-Physiological

I'm 16,I'm 5'3 1/2,I always carry pepper spray wherever I go,it's attached to my key.A person can take all of the self defense classes they want,carry a gun,pepper spray,a knife and that does not guarantee safety.At the end of the day,millions of things could happen.I do think everyone should be able to protect themselves,whether male or female,single or taken,gay or straight.But what if I can't spray my pepper spray fast enough,which btw,you shouldn't rely on because it doesn't ensure safety and millions of people are immune to it,what if I don't think fast enough,you can plan plan plan,but in the heat of the moment,no one thinks clearly..no one.

It isn't pathetic,it's called human nature.Since evolution,men have been the "protectors,gatherers and hunters" and it never hurts to have someone bigger,heavier and stronger than you for extra protection.

I'm all for females being strong,independent and successful,but there's a line where self proclaimed " feminists" who are actually indeed feminazi's,need to realize,both men and women need each other,whether it's protection,pro creation,both need on another.

Back in the day,physiological needs were met by men.Men provided basic needs such as food,clothing,shelter,water etc.The man protected her from harm and danger,they loved each other and felt secure with one another,both felt good about themselves and realized what they could do for themselves and society

[aoirthoir]

Would to Goddess that all the posts were as lucid as this. Yes, women can protect themselves and yes women can accept protection from others. The same goes for men, intersexed, cis and trans persons. It's not an either or as you so eloquently point out.

[peace-love-couture]

Thank you:D

[aoirthoir]

YW. Also it's nice you were able to express your view without insulting other women. Twould be nice if others followed suit.

[peace-love-couture]

But you yourself do not represent other women.I'm not calling you big or fat,but for all we know you could be an amazonian woman...just sayin...

And mentally prepared?You sound as though you have no experience in life.

There is no mental preparation in the state of panic,confusion and fear.Not everyone thinks straight or correctly.If this was the case,would so many women be raped every year?No.Would so many people,old and young get mugged or robbed or beat up?No

[TheCheshireCat]

Because physically speaking, men are stronger than women.

An average man is taller and heavier than an average woman.

Men are over 30% stronger than women, especially in the upper body. Although many feminists cannot face this fact, females simply do not have the strength or endurance necessary to be, for example, effective combat soldiers.

Men have larger hearts and lungs, and their higher levels of testosterone cause them to produce greater amounts of red blood cells

Differences in intake and delivery of oxygen translates into some aspects of performance: when a man is jogging at about 50% of his capacity, a woman will need to work at over 70% of her capacity to keep up with him.

Men’s skin has more collagen and sebum, which makes it thicker and oilier than women’s skin

Women generally have a greater body fat percentage than men.

That being said, I do think women need to overcome their weaknesses, & learn to take care of themselves. Men will not always be there to protect a woman, & if that day comes, a woman will have no choice but to defend herself.

[Xia90]

pretty good answer.

[TheCheshireCat]

Thanks!

[AnonymouslyKnown]

Strictly speaking, women don't need a man to protect them. There's no reason that an intelligent woman can't protect herself.

That said, your self defense lessons and pepper spray aren't going to stop an attacker who most likely has a significant weight advantage on you. It's a fact of life that men biologically almost always weight more than women, and have a much easier time putting on muscle mass than women.

That weight difference is telling in any confrontation. I don't care if you're a man or woman, I don't care if you've studied every form of martial art known to man. If someone has a 100 pound weight advantage on you, you're going to have a very hard time winning a confrontation. To create the force needed to harm someone, you need weight behind your hits unless you plan to use moves which use someone's momentum or body inflexibility against them. Unfortunately, those moves are very easy to defend against.

I'm not trying to put you down, I think it's great that you've taken steps to defend yourself. However there's a world of difference between a class and real life.

That said, you may look into carrying a weapon besides pepper spray if you really feel unsafe. Pepper spray at the commercial level is often watered down to the point of being nearly ineffective if you can't hit someone full in the face at close range. Even then, many brands have the tendency to lose pressure over the product lifetime. Getting a CCW & firearm, or possibly a baton would be a good addition to anyone who truly fears for their safety.

[AnonymouslyKnown]

In response to your update: you list absolutely no details beyond the fact that you dislocated the mans shoulder. One situation and one out come does not a seasoned fighter make. I stand by my statement that if you're truly worried for your own safety (though it seems slightly delusional to be so scared unless you offended the mafia), you should look into a CCW & a pistol.

Beyond that, in most situations when you're facing down someone with a significant weight advantage, you will not win.

[Anonymous]

fairytales - every girl wants her knight in shining armer and every guy wants to rescue a damsil in disitress, they want this even if they don't admit it, its not about being fit, its not about being strong, its the fairytale everybody wants it, phycologically girls want to be the princess and guys want to be the prince

[cacapisu]

Best answer!

[Opinion Owner]

Thank you

[Ammunition]

Yep! It's how we're made!

Asker:

It's great that you can hold your own...

But it's nice that boy take care of us!

Don't fight it!

[Opinion Owner]

:-) fairytale - sleeping beauty - the prince, the princess

[Opinion Owner]

Exactly

[pinkchocolat]

Agree! Most girls deep dow want guys to step up to the plate..I'm worried that in the society we are in today this does't happen as much as it used to..

[Opinion Owner]

it doesn't because girls want guys to be more sensitive even though they want them manly aswell, women have too much pride these days to want to be rescued by men

[chrsschb]

It's not psychological and it's not a fairytale. It's genetics. For thousands and thousands of years men have protected their women. It wasn't until the feminist movements that women started being so independent.

[Mesonfielde]

Why do you people BELIEVE that nonsense?! Oh I know - because it is a perfect opportunity to attempt to make your engraven irrational "desires"... I mean needs valid. "Biology" is a perfect excuse for your irrational belief of a broken and outdated genderal role.

If you stopped saying it's biology, maybe people would realize that all these desires stem from their childhood idealisms of the opposite gender.

[Bruce]

I admire your independence and your self confidence and your wish to defend yourself without help...

...the woman being dragged into the back seat of a car by her hair, and being held up against the front seat by the 300 pound haystack asshole...was pathetic...for being there...in a helpless position...waiting to be battered or beaten...

...when I intervened...she broke loose and ran...pathetic...and I was there, alone, to face down her attacker...

Don't be so sure of yourself...I'm not...don't be arrogant about your ability to defend yourself against a larger, much heavier, stronger, attacker...

When it comes, if ever, you won't see it coming, like a terrible car crash...a rape or an attempted rape, your pepper spray will probably be used on YOU...not against your attacker

as you will not have time nor the presence of mind to use it...assault and induce shock.

Just be aware of your surroundings...the people around you...don't go alone at night on foot in ANY unfamiliar area...I don't pray, I prepare...

I hope it never comes,but if it does...prepare...for that day...

Bruce

[shf84]

Wow a lot of scary talk. Nothing like propaganda to keep the less intelligent women scared and dependent on men.

[aoirthoir]

Shf84, nothing like being completely dismissive of women with your response. I hate to break it to you but women are not as gullible as you make them out to be. Women can easily see through ridiculous claims, whether made by Bruce or anyone. In your attempt to "defend" women, you might want to try leaving the misogyny and paternal language out of your responses.

[shf84]

And in your responses to others you might want to leave out the political spin. Calling it spin is actually giving you the benefit of the doubt actually. If you read my post (which is hardly long) I referenced less intelligent women not your average woman of course women can see through an idiot like that. Your critical thinking skills CAN"T possibly suck that bad. Of course mine don't either so writing things like you just did is a wast of time any way. But you'll learn (hopefully)

[aoirthoir]

V\shf84, now what you're playing is "bait and switch." Trying to change the argument from your consistently misogynistic language to the intelligence or "thinking skills" of others. Get this, it doesn't matter that you're reserving your misogyny for "only" those women YOU deam "less worthy", it's still misogyny.

[shf84]

For one thing it' s you that drew attention to your thinking skills I just noticed. For instance you don't seem to get simple things like misogyny it means to hate women. Yet you seem to think that if a man criticizes something a woman did then the man is a misogynist. Criticizing behavior or an individual is not equal to criticizing there sex as a whole any one could figure that out yet you don't seem to be able to get little things like that.

[aoirthoir]

"Yet you seem to think that if a man criticizes something a woman did then the man is a misogynist."

WRONG. It is NOT your disagreement with women wanting protection that makes you a misogynist. It is the INSULTING language you use to reference such women. As far as self protection I HAPPEN to AGREE that women should know self defense.

"... not equal to criticizing there sex as a whole..."

You don't have to speak with hateful words to ALL women to be a misogynist.

[shf84]

Speaking that way to someone because they do something stupid is one thing. Now if I had specifically said "women are like that" as in women that would be misogynist but to think because someone criticizes the behavior of a bunch of people belonging to a group somehow they hate the group rather than the behavior or the individuals makes no sense. In your haste to label people as bigots of some type or other you miss the details. It comes of being brain washed.

[Bruce]

My wife (when I was married, was a police woman) and I made no ridiculous claims about women, 'aoirthoir"....and you should keep your mouth shut when you don't what lthe hell you are talking about.........She has had to defend women with her baton and the threat of deadly force........women who were in fear for their lives..........go to work on the street in uniform for five years.....then come back and shoot your ignorant mouth off about misogyny and "claims" Until then shut the hell up.

[aoirthoir]

Shf84, I am WELL aware of the nature of violence against men and women. Out of one side of your mouth you praise women that are admittedly strong enough to defend themselves. Out of the other side of your mouth you vapidly insult women (and men) as "PATHETIC" when we cannot.

As I said in my last post, the fact that you are praising SOME women, does not give you a free pass when you make misogynistic statements about OTHER women. Your disdain for SOME women is apparent in every post you make.

[shf84]

My disdain for some people doing some things it has nothing to do with them being women. Again you want so badly to find a reason to label someone you don't pay attention. It's because of your agenda.

[aoirthoir]

"My disdain for some people doing some things it has nothing to do with them being women."

I've already pointed out plainly how your disdain is for ANYONE of any gender that seeks to be protected.

" Again you want so badly to find a reason to label"

Hating men also, does make you not a woman hater.

" someone you don't pay attention. It's because of your agenda"

I've paid attention.Your view: Women only get to choose what you decide, or they are pathetic. Mine: women choose what THEY want.

[shf84]

Yes they do even if it's wrong and harmful to themselves and others.

[aoirthoir]

Perhaps you missed the part where I said "or [in your view] they are pathetic."

So sure they get to decide what they want to do and do it, and there's not much you (thankfully) can do about it.

[shf84]

I can denounce what their doing and expose it for what it is and I will.

[aoirthoir]

"I can denounce what their doing and expose it for what it is and I will."

No, what you will do is claim it is something it is not, then you will denounce that. You're not "exposing" anything but your own absurdities and lies.

[shf84]

That's pretty much what I think of your view point to.

[Cluelesswithmen]

That's how men are programmed. They are born to learn how to provide and protect, its all apart of being a man.

He may not feel the need to protect you if you are fit and know self defense. Please realize that your a queen as all of us females are however, what makes a man a king is the woman who steps down to him and give him that power to be a man is what makes him appreciate you...

I know how to fix things, yet I always used to ask my ex boyfriend if he can reach this or if he can open the bottle for me because he is stronger than I am. It's kinda like you saying, "hey hun, can you please give me a hand with putting this exercise machine together with me, it's really confusing and because your a handy guy, it looks complained so you would be a big help. I don't wanna hurt myself by building it incorrectly". You have stepped down (even though the instructions are so simple and you can do it yourself) you let him take the lead and you are the guide. You are showing him that you can help him in this task and you didn't just throw it on him, but you need him to "lift, screw the bolts in, etc." All the things men are programmed to do so they feel strong and helpful.

If you decide not to step down and play the lady role, he is gonna wonder why you need him or any man at all... He will think that there is nothing special about him and you only want someone, anyone to love you... You don't really need him nor do you want him to do the repairs around the house. If you get jumped, well you'll be alright. You got your pepper spray. The point I'm trying to make is if you want him to treat you like a lady you need to act like one. If you can take care of yourself then what role will the man play in your life? The eye candy? You might be a tough girl but you still need to be his heart, that's where his love is...

[shf84]

Men are taught that SHIT by society. I don't need ANY of that garbage! I would be proud to be with a woman like her who was willing to step up to life!

[colegrl]

Cluelesswithmen is a fitting name for you. If you have to pretend to be helpless so guy will feel "needed" than that whole relationship is built around a lie. You should not have to dumb yourself down so your partner can feel better about himself. If he cannot be in a relationship with someone who is self-sufficeient, then he should not be dating. A partner should want to be in the realtionship because they love you for who you are, not because you need them to screw in a lightbulb.

[Cluelesswithmen]

I really don't care if you agree with me or not.

But I know how my dad protects me. I would like the same "qualities" for my man. Doesn't mean I want to date someone like my dad. I would never expect it to be my bf's responsiblity to protect me. But it's nice to know that he would if need be.

Step up in life. Well if I don't act like a lady are you gonna feel more like man? If you would rather be with someone that doesn't think like me then that's your choice. And you don't have to agree w me

[Cluelesswithmen]

All I was saying is that I like to make my boyfriend feel like a man. Like he is handly. I don't have too your right. But it's just the little extra things we do for our lovers that make them feel special.

If you don't feel the need to protect your girl then that's ur choice. Let her have a p*ssy for a bf.

If you don't like to make your man feel, like he can do things for you. Or if you don't care to find a "dumb" excuse to reward him for his actions. That's ur choice.

Good luck to the both of you.

[RealDeal]

I agree with "clueless".She doesn't need me 2 "screw in the blub" but she likes it when I do. I don't have 2 buy her flowers but she likes it when I do. No way does this make her dumb, or lazy.

I have sisters so I know how stubborn girls can B. But if something happen 2 them I would never 4give myself. I don't have 2 protect them but I dont' need 2 risk them being hurt physically or emotionally.

[RealDeal]

Dude you don't HAVE 2 protect her. You don't have 2 pay 4 her meal when u2 go 4 out either. But she'll just think ur cheap.

I want a girl 2 be proud 2 stand B her man & I want her 2 be proud 2 be with me. It's all apart of emotionally connecting with females. If you don't treat her like a lady. What makes her so special? If you don't show her appreciation, why would she stay with u, what's special about u? I don't know how you love people but I want someone 2 love me 4 me & how I am & I'll do the same

[aoirthoir]

" A partner should want to be in the realtionship because they love you for who you are, not because you need them to screw in a lightbulb"

Or, we could let those people in a relationship decide why they are in a relationship for themselves. If both (or more than both) partners in the relationship are happy with an arrangement, or are happy with why someone is with them, then who are we to tell them their decision is wrong?

[RealDeal]

Hold on, I said, "I don't know how you love people but I want someone 2 love me 4 me & how I am & I'll do the same ".

I do those things for girls because I want to and because she knows I want to do those things, she doesn't have a problem asking me. Stop talking about the stupid litebulb.

Doing little things because you want too do them for that person, is what I am getting at. Because some people like to help other people in different ways. It's another way of showing you care.

[RealDeal]

No judgement here. People like different things.

[aoirthoir]

Realdeal, I was referencing colegrl's comments.

Some people feel it is their right to police the bodily autonomy of women and other genders (yes there are more than two) in their relationships. I agree with what you said, we can do little things for each other and that's not bodily autonomy theft. The only ones who get to determine what they like in a relationship, are those IN the relationship.

Several here (not you) are wielding their privilege to judge others self-defined relationships.

[RealDeal]

Sorry about that.

Thanks.

[aoirthoir]

Realdeal, no problem. When there's lots of comments it becomes hard to follow. Especially when a lot of those comments amount to hate speech.

[Kripter]

Er. One of those traditional things, women and men are completely different and no matter what people might like to think, a woman can never be as strong as a man (with a few exceptions) but that doesn't mean a woman can defend herself. - Of course I'd like to see a man push a human out of a the size of a lime and see who's stronger then - har har har.

ANYWAYS, it's not completely how it is, don't make assumptions that's how most women are, but there are some and if they like it, they probably read sh*tty romance novels like twilight or something. It's just a security thing because like I said, women aren't as burly as men, and I suppose they seek that comfort...?

THEN AGAIN these days our men are so scrawny or gym originated muscle heads that its questionable how well they could protect a girl.

BUT it's still great that you're taking self defense class, take one every option you get, better yet take some of that ninja sh*t. Just because a girl isn't /as/ strong as a man, doesn't mean she can't protect herself.

[dont-taze-me-bro]

"woman can never be as strong as a man (with a few exceptions)"

This snippet? It's completely meaningless. Either there are cases where women are as strong as men or there aren't. If there are exceptions, then "never" is the wrong word.

[Kripter]

My bad, 'never' was the incorrect word to use. I meant in most cases, women are not as strong as men in pure physical strength without steroids; of course now a lot of gender roles have been switched around and women are stronger depending. XD

[shf84]

Another point that the professor (or should I say reverend) is missing is the OP is actually talking about the behavior she's not necessarily saying the women themselves are pathetic. It's a perfectly valid point. Also if what he's saying about seeking out a mate for protection being valid then there is no reason to encourage women to step out of that role in the first place every thing is just fine the way it is. After all their just self defining their relationship. Nothing wrong with that.

[aoirthoir]

"r she's not necessarily saying the women themselves are pathetic."

I love the "I am not saying YOU are stupid, just that your DECISIONS are stupid" defense.

"After all their just self defining their relationship. Nothing wrong with that."

You are right there IS NOTHING wrong with that. People get to decide for themselves the reasons they enter into a relationship with another. As well they should.

[shf84]

Some people enter relationships with a person with the intent of taking out huge sums of life insurance on them and killing them for the money. Guess we don't get to judge the reasons why only they can say why they got into the relationship. Boy you smoke some good stuff you must be from so cal

[aoirthoir]

"Some people enter relationships...taking out huge sums of life insurance on them and killing them for the money."

So once again you are going to compare a woman's personal decision THAT HURTS NO ONE, to MURDER?

" Guess we don't get to judge the reasons why only they can say why they got into the relationship."

Once agani you are trying to conflate TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES. Her choosing to be defended is VASTLY different from her choosing to MURDER someone and you KNOW IT.

[aoirthoir]

You're going to ignore it but I will say it anyway. EVERYONE deserves PERSONAL AUTONOMY. That is they deserve the right to make their own decisions. When it comes to entering relationships, as long as the relationships are ADULT and CONSENTING and HURTING NO ONE, then people should be able to enter those relationships FOR ANY REASON they choose.

Now, if some folks are HURT, you know by things like BEING MURDERED, well that's where personal autonomy ENDS. We DONT have the right to MURDER.

[Kripter]

Gah. Go discuss elsewhere.

[shf84]

And we don't have the right to deceive people who think we love them and we really just want to hide behind them. We also don't have the right to form sleazy relationships based on protection instead of love and pass them off as legitimate

[aoirthoir]

"And we don't have the right to deceive people who think we love them and we really just want to hide behind them."

Another strawman. None of us are talking about doing that and you know it. See, there's that word I keep using, CONSENSUAL. It means that people KNOW what's going on and they AGREE two it. Arguing against what we are ACTUALLY saying would eliminate your argument that women or their decisions are pathetic. So you have to keep making stuff up.

[aoirthoir]

" We also don't have the right to form sleazy relationships based on protection instead of love and pass them off as legitimate"

Again another strawman. No one's talking about being in a relationship ONLY because of protection. What we are saying is that when we ARE in love and a relationship, it is nice to PROTECT each other. THere is nothing sleazy about this.

But we all note how you think women making ADULT, CONSENSUAL decisions which HURT NO ONE, is really just sleazy.

[shf84]

Adult consensual decisions that place protection above love and caring about another person is sleazy all right and when you push it as a social agenda as society does it is very harmful.

That people will protect each other in a relationship is a given that's just human behaviour.

It shoulden't even come up when your choosing a mate.

Choosing a lover based on their ability to protect you weather in whole or part is morally wrong.

[aoirthoir]

"Adult consensual decisions that place protection above love and caring"

Another strawman. No one BUT YOU made this claim.

"when you push it as a social agenda as society does it is very harmful."

No one is pushing the strawman you keep making up.

"That people will protect each other in a relationship is a given."

Not really. There are a LOT of abusive relationships out there.

"It shoulden't even come up when your choosing a mate."

Says you in your privilege.

[aoirthoir]

"Choosing a lover based on their ability to protect you weather in whole or part is morally wrong."

No it is not. It IS morally wrong for YOU and YOUR lovers.

Let me restate that for clarity, it IS morally wrong for you shf AND your lovers.

But there are people that have gotten beyond the idea that we have to live our lives based on OTHER persons morals. We call those people GROWN UPs. You might want to give it a try sometime.

[shf84]

Morals are morals if they come from me or who ever they stand or fail on their own merits not because of who chooses to follow them.

[aoirthoir]

"Morals are morals if they come from me or who ever they stand or fail on their own merits not because of who chooses to follow them."

No they are not. What is and is not moral varies widely. Some people believe that interracial relationships, Pagan rituals, Atheism, Home Schooling and NUMEROUS other things that are immoral.

As long as someone's actions are not hurting others, none of us should have a say in the morals of another.

[shf84]

Saying atheism is wrong is incorrect saying prostituting your self for protection is wrong is a correct assumption. People engaging in unsavory behavior is harmful to every one.

[aoirthoir]

"saying prostituting your self for protection is wrong is a correct assumption."

No it's making stuff up. No one's "prostituting" themselves for protection.

"People engaging in unsavory behavior is harmful to every one"

There is nothing unsavory about protecting a loved one or being protected by a loved one. Or wanting to protect and wanting to be protected.

[shf84]

One more attempt to put words in my mouth and to confuse protecting each other with being protected with no reciprocity as a reason for choosing a mate

[shf84]

YES YES YES YES! A woman after my own heart! I can not tell you how often I have made this very argument and had to fight off an army of spineless girly girls who wanted to hide behind their daddy. I have even had weird reactions from girls like that where they talked sh*t about me and tried to backstab me in some way because my views terrified them.

It is SO DAMN GOOD to hear a woman talk like she has a brain in her head and a normal back bone keep speaking out!

Listen to the men on here see how they talk about violence toward women and how you need them to protect you? Your witnessing the patriarchy in action! This degenerate attitude is how men keep women dependent on them and keep them down. What they are NOT telling you is there are a LOT of men who are no stronger than you some men are very small or in very poor shape and are left to fend for themselves any way they can and no one EVER talks about how they need to be protected. DON'T LISTEN TO THAT BULL SHIT THEY LIE! This is all about using the threat of violence to force women into an oppressive social role!

[hisangel]

We all have the right to our own theories but the men who are saying that women need men around aren't being patriarchal. They have probably seen how helpless a woman can be against the strength of man. And yes, I used the word helpless cause I'm telling you it is sickening to see a woman try to fight off a man and not be able to. This isn't a feminist thing and I wish people would understand that. I have seen strong women be BRUTALIZED by men. There is a huge biological strength difference.

[shf84]

There are small men who can't fight either and no one is talking about them needing protection odd that they would talk this way about women and not even bring these men up.

[hisangel]

If you read my response you would see that's not true. I DID mention men who hang around other men for protection. I mentioned it several times actually. I'm not against women defending themselves, I think they should. I'm against people who don't have enough life experiences to understand how scary some situations are and other people perpetuating naive behavior.

I asked one of my boyfriends once "Do you think you can take that guy?" pointing to a smaller guy and he said "I don't know."

[hisangel]

I asked him why and he said "When you have been in enough fights, you learn not to judge on appearance alone." That means that the small guy who you think can't do you any harm can really mess you up. It also means that women can totally mess men up but you and I know very well that that is not the standard. There is an upper body strength in a man that is not in most women, meaning a man's punch is going to cause way more damage than a woman's punch.

It's great to be able to take care

[hisangel]

Of yourself but there is nothing wrong with using the help available. Whether from a man or woman. And I think it is naive to sum up every situation as the same situation and act like you can handle all of them. Sure I can kick the sh*t out of some men but it's not wrong to ask for help when I know I can't.

[shf84]

You actually said that to your boy friend? You walk around thinking in terms of violence all the time? That's just bizarre. It sounds very much like your spreading a philosophy of violent confrontation your self. There is nothing wrong with asking for help if you need it every one does that. Their IS something wrong with expecting someone to fall into a role because of an accident of birth such as race or sex.

[shf84]

Having a lover is about caring for someone loving them for who they are weather they are big or small or able bodied or in a wheel chair. That's what being human is all about, having ideals and living them. Your picking your mate based on weather he can save your ass or not you really don't even care for these men.

The difference between you and the girl who posted this is she is idealistic and your survivalistic she has her humanity; you left yours back there in what ever slum you came from.

[hisangel]

Again, you are fascinating me in that you are attempting to sound like you care for women but you have repeatedly insulting a woman simply because she doesn't agree with you.

I'm sorry that you think your suburb girl who posted the question is a goddess and I'm a slum rat who perpetuates violence. If you stopped making assumptions about me you would see I said I bring my boyfriend with me because he PREVENTS violence. Let me say it again: Taking a man into certain places PREVENTS a confrontation

[hisangel]

I have seen enough violence in my life to never want to see anymore. Hence why I am begging this girl to be smart about this.

Regarding asking my boyfriend, that was a childhood game when I was younger that a bunch of people were playing asking each other if they could take someone. Like the old lady across the street. But he responded seriously to it. I know you thought as a slumrat, all we do is sitting around looking for people to punch but we can joke too.

[hisangel]

And no I don't pick my boyfriends based on size or ability to fight. The man I am with is the sweetest, most gentle man I have ever met and he loves me in a way that I didn't know people loved. But he was born in a terrible place and has swagger because of it. It's a skill you learn out of necessity. It has nothing to do with his sex that makes me ask him to go with me. It his has to do with his ability to protect himself. I wouldn't ask every man cause some men couldn't do it.

[hisangel]

And just FYI, I am not some little slumdog that laughs at violence. I am a very educated, proud, and strong woman who grow up in a very hard place. I would appreciate a little more respect than just completely unfounded theories on who I am based on several paragraphs. I have tried very hard not to insult you and not make assumptions about you even though we disagree on this issue. I would ask for the same respect in return.

[aoirthoir]

"Again, you are fascinating me in that you are attempting to sound like you care for women but you have repeatedly insulting a woman simply because she doesn't agree with you."

THIS. EMPHATICALLY this. Thank you for saying this hisangel. Those supporting the OP's calling other women pathetic because she disagrees with THEIR PERSONAL CHOICES, are supporting nothing short of misogyny.

[shf84]

Calling a woman who supports misogynist ideals is not misogynist. You talk a LOT about privilege yet you wan these people t get a pass because of their sex.

[aoirthoir]

Sfh84, a PASS? For deciding WHO she dates, WHY she dates them, WHEN she stays with them and WHEN she leaves them? A PASS because I refuse to accept that calling a woman PATHETIC for WHATEVER reason she chooses to "have a defender"?

And NO she's NOT supporting misogynistic ideas. Facts are that SOME of us, men or women, ARE NOT privileged enough to be able to DEFEND ourselves. Having others that are WILLING to help us IS NOT misogynistic. Referencing women by pejoratives IS misogyny.

[shf84]

And referencing an wrong act committed by someone who happens to be female is not misogyny any one could see that .

[aoirthoir]

There is no "wrong act" here. A woman, exercising her FREEDOM OF CHOICE, even if ANY OF US disagree with that choice, DOES NOT make it a "wrong act".

You keep talking as if you are concerned about gender roles, yet you keep promoting them. YOU a MAN get to decide that a woman has made a bad choice, because it is something YOU disagree with it. It's paternalistic, infantalizing and demonstrates your unearned privilege.

[shf84]

Again with the whole focusing on the persons sex thing reminds me of a race baiter calling any one and every one a racist because they criticized some one of a certain race. My opinion of women is one thing and my opinion of women who uphold wrong behavior is another. Has nothing to do with my sex or my "privilege" or any thing else (why even bring my sex into it for that matter?) It's about logic.

[aoirthoir]

"reminds me of a race baiter"

This is simply a game of three card monty on your part to distract from what you've said.

"My opinion of women is one thing and my opinion of women who uphold wrong behavior is another."

1. There is no "wrong behavior" on the part of women that want to be protected.

2. Your disdain for those women that have done nothing wrong ABSOLUTELY deserved to be called what it is. Hating some women and not others, doesn't make you not a woman hater.

[aoirthoir]

"Has nothing to do with my sex or my "privilege"

Your view that it is ok to tell women what criteria they are ALLOWED, and comparing their PERSONAL decisions WHICH HURT NO ONE to burglary, murder, child abuse and other vile offenses, is a very DEMONSTRATION of your privilege.

"or any thing else (why even bring my sex into it for that matter?) It's about logic"

I didn't bring sex into it, the op and you did. I quote you:

" had to fight off an army of spineless girly girls"

[shf84]

Same old convoluted reasoning. Pretty big stretch your confusing me telling someone with me pointing out something wrong in what their doing but we've been over this many times already as we have your constant focus on the group the person belongs to rather than the behavior.

I'm reasoning things out your pushing an agenda

[aoirthoir]

"Same old convoluted reasoning."

The convoluted reasoning here is your's and the ops.

"me pointing out something wrong"

You CLAIMING they are doing something wrong. BIG difference.

"your constant focus on the group the person belongs to"

Your quotes above show YOU focused on the group, I merely responded.

"your pushing an agenda "

Yes. The agenda of PERSONAL AUTONOMY. Your agenda, though CLAIMED to be about eliminating gender roles, is actually about ENFORCING them.

[shf84]

Same old accusations same old gymnastics to support them. Nothing new here.

[aoirthoir]

"Same old accusations same old gymnastics to support them. Nothing new here. -"

There is no need for nothing new when your arguments continue to have no grounding in fact.

[shf84]

That's exactly how I see yours.

[aoirthoir]

"That's exactly how I see yours."

The difference of course is that yours are not grounded in fact, whereas mine are.

Your position: someone needing and thus wanting protection, or ADDED protection, is weak minded, pathetic, immoral, a user and other pejoratives. She should NOT hold this position.

My position: anyone should choose for themselves what position they hold, even if I disagree with their choice, so long as it is consensual AND harms no one.

Yours ignores freedom mine embraces it.

[shf84]

You said that before and I answered you before, the freedom to do what ever you want weather it's wrong or not, that might not bother amoral people but it bothers me and any one else who can think strait.

[katrinasanchez]

I agree with you shf84..

[Koncieved]

I find that sexy, a woman who can take care of herself. Of course you being extremely fit caught my eye too. Typically women will want or even feel the need to have a man by their side to 'protect' them. Most women are not like you, I might be generalizing, but I believe women tend to lack fitness and the ability to fight, often women who end up fighting will slap and pull hair- ineffective at best. Factually speaking men are physically stronger than women, it's just that way, you can't change it, males will always be potentially stronger than females. Although that really doesn't matter as much as most people think. A woman who knows how to fight and defend herself will knock the sh*t out of any average man who does not know how to fight(Most people in general including men, lack the ability to fight with some sense)

When the male is not average in size, you will be at a sheer disadvantage, say he's 250 pounds and built like a brick. Under such circumstances it just becomes physics and you probably won't be able to defend yourself. It's the reason for weight classes in professional fights, if there were to be a woman in the weight class of a man give or take a weight class, it will ultimately come down to who's the more skilled fighter.

Anyways, kudos to you for taking self defense lessons and being extremely fit, unfortunately you don't see that too much these days.

[AFchick89]

Because its the natural way of things..its been like that since the dawn of time.most women are hepless and dnt know how to defend them sleves. Its a womens thought process ahem!..(most women)..its literally a chemical difference in men and women. Trust me I'm in the military and yea I know how to defend my self but studies have shown that we as women can not do certain jobs in the military because we are emotional thinkers and men well they have a natural instinct to protect us so, if we did combat realted jobs we would put men in danger. men dnt protect other men..they have an emotional connection with women so naturally they would put themsleve in harms way to help us if we were in danger...so like I said its literally just the way things are its how women think its not only a chemical process but an emotional need that women or driven by to have that from the more dominant being hence MEN..Personally I'm one for equal oppurtunity ..i wish they wouldn't base these studies off a percentage of women there are a few out there that can hold their own cough*me *cough.. ;)

[cacapisu]

It doesn't matter how strong you are these days. You can be champion at kickboxing and your girlfriend would get raped while you are at work.

Girls are raped when they are alone, you can't be with your boyfriend 24/24

Also I have met girls that know that if they go home very late and alone in some neighborhoods they will most certainly get harassed, and I've warned her also, still they do it and then call me to say what a crap night she had and they slapped her ass while getting back home etc. (the only explanation I found for that is that they are looking for it, looking for the thrill)

Like anonymous user said(best answer IMO):

"fairytales - every girl wants her knight in shining armor and every guy wants to rescue a damsel in distress, they want this even if they don't admit it, its not about being fit, its not about being strong, its the fairytale everybody wants it, physiologically girls want to be the princess and guys want to be the prince"

They are sexually attracted and they feel safe but that's all.

[Anonymous]

Ahh jeez, there always has to be one chick who has to get all feminist on our already feminist asses.

Seriously, I'm 6'0" and look like I could take care of myself (and I have enough in me to if it needs to be done, no question there).

And you know what my dilemma is right now in trying to decided whether to go for this guy I may or may not like? I'm not sure he's masculine enough. Could he, hypothetically, take care of business if it came down to it? With all the strength, fight and aggression I could generate in a situation where I need to defend myself, I would feel better if my companion had even more, it's just how it is. It's what makes me feel like a woman instead of a man, my partner being stronger and better built to protect than I am.

It's biology, it's instinct, it's gender roles, it's how we're raised, it's all of it. There's nothing wrong with it. As long as a woman remembers that it's what's inside her head that really counts. You can defend your butt all you want but if you're a total airhead ... now that really IS pathetic.

[Anonymous]

To be honest, women do not have to look for bodyguard. But the behavior of wanting men bodyguard and dominance is learned and nurtured behavior rather than biological. BUt you question is address as why? Simply because they are not confident of themselves. Don't be disgusted or surprised by this because it is nurtured and learned behavior as you learned self-defense and idea of carrying pepper spray. By the way, pepper spray won't stop man who wants to hurm you any way. Maybe carry pistol. Lolz. Second, women are less strong them man. They are less able to tolerate dreadful pain such as broken hips or legss and fighting back is hard. Not all women but we are talking about the larger percentage. Second, not a lot of women take self-defense skills and grow up household where they have always treated with the idea "oh my little adorable girl can't do that, won't do that, should be safe, protected". It might seem nice but often it is leading to women become acustomed to this behavior and lose self-comfidence of standing up for themselves. Again not all women because you are a woman too. Finally, you are still young and have to you know the man dominace and realities. Talk to mothers. :D

[Nyssii666]

Contradiction, the pain of giving birth would put any man into shock and he'd die.

[moaterboat]

That's a load of crap, men have higher pain tolerances than women, IF men could somehow experience the pain of childbirth, it would affect them less. Stop being sexist.

[katrinasanchez]

Men have higher pain tolerances than women? Um is that tested?

[colegrl]

I agree with you. A women does not need a man to protect her ever.

As for all the other commenters, I am very shocked at the ignornace present. First of all, the idea of "natural" needs to be thown out. There is no natural way to be a guy or a girl. Gender in itself is just a social construct. Notice I said gender, not sex. Yes there are biological differences between male and female. But the idea of masculine and feminine? Those are social constructs.

Yes men typcially are stronger than women. Does the mean all women should live in fear and constantly need to be babysat? Hell no. How about we bring up boys to teach them not to hurt, not to rape? I am sick of people thinking it is the women's responsibility not to get attacked. She could be drunk, naked, and kissing you but guess what, she still has the right to say no, to change her mind. If a guy cannot conrtol his sexual impulses, then he should not leave the house. But I digress.

A lot of the commenters seem to assume every girl wants a man in her life. What about lesbians? Gender-queer women? Where do they fall in this discussion?

[aoirthoir]

"A lot of the commenters seem to assume every girl wants a man in her life. What about lesbians? Gender-queer women? Where do they fall in this discussion? "

They don't. The original post was about heteranormative relationships, so that's how the commenters are answering. Doesn't mean there SHOULDNT be a discussion, its just a different one. We shouldn't fault commenters for actually responding to the topic asked.

[hisangel]

Have you ever seen a man and woman fight? I mean really fight. Where the guy pulled no punches and the girl pulled no punches? Street fight in anger, not a boyfriend/girlfriend fighting? I assure you if you ever do, you will never think twice about the strength of a man vs. the strength of a woman again. Watching a man fight a woman is like watching a woman fight a child. You will quickly realize there is a level of power behind a man's punches that aren't in a woman's, no matter how strong.

[shf84]

This is plain bull crap there are men who get the sh*t beat out of them by women. Happens all the time. It's my suspicion that you have an agenda in saying what your saying.

[colegrl]

I am faulting the commenter on the use of black and white language. Maybe I shouldn't have brought gender queer into it. But not all straight women are a certain way and not all straight men are a certain way either. By saying well all women want a man to protect him is like saying all women are bad at math and want kids. Its blatant generalization.

[hisangel]

I don't know for sure but as many posts as the 2 of you (shf84 & colegirl) have responded to I get the impression that you think that people are saying women are less than men on this issue. Or not equal to men in some way. I think most people are just saying that men are biological built different. That's the impression I'm getting. Most of the guys seem to be saying that they want 2 protect not out of a woman's "weakness" but out of her value to him. I don't think there is an inequality issue.

[shf84]

When ever you have gender roles your saying that a person has to do something because of the shape of there body and that IS inequality.

[hisangel]

I do not believe a single person said a man HAS TO protect a woman. I think you are seeing that in people's words. I never meant that and I don't hear that in most of the people's comments. The question wasn't "Should a man protect a woman?" the question was pretty much "Why are women who want protection pathetic?" That's what people are responding to. No one is saying all men have to fight. Men are saying they like protecting, women are saying they like it too. That's all!

[shf84]

And I'm saying that women and men like that are wrong. Women are not children and men are not to be used as body guards and atm machines. It's the whole attitude that is wrong.

[aoirthoir]

" there are men who get the sh*t beat out of them by women. Happens all the time."

Actually this IS true. Men are victims of violence FAR more often than women are victims of violence.

Colegrl, you and I are objecting to the same thing from different angles. All this or all that language is never helpful.

Hisangel you sum it up well.

shf84, a woman that wants protection is NOT a child. STOP saying she is, it's marginalizing and infantalizing.

[shf84]

A woman who want's protection is initializing her self just fine with out my help. You say "stop" like you think I'm going to just stop as if you really think you have some sort of authority it's a thread that runs through every thing you have written on here.

[aoirthoir]

"A woman who want's protection..."

No, asking for protection or EQUALLY being protected AND protecting her lover is NOT infantalizing. Calling her a child IS.

"You say "stop" like..."

As I said upthread I don't actually expect YOU to change your language. Misogynists rarely do. OTHERS might realize that infantalizing language is UNACCEPTABLE and think about not using it themselves. YOU won't though.

[peace-love-couture]

Honestly,y'all should just agree to disagree.Everyone whether male or female should protect themselves,of course,anyone,whether gay,straight,bi or whatever,would like to know that their partner has their back.Yes,mean are stronger naturally,can be heavier and taller(not all),but at the end of the day,I think you all should just pay attention to yourselves and stop expecting everyone to agree with you.I agree with the answerer ^^^ Colegrl on many of her points though.

[aoirthoir]

Evangelina, MOSTLY we agree. We agree that everyone, regardless of class, race, gender, sexual orientation, religion and any other "ism" we can think of, should have the ability to protect themselves and use various means possible to do so.

Where we disagree, is that if someone chooses not to, I do not think insulting them is proper. If I think a person SHOULD know how to protect themselves, insulting them isn't going to give them courage to do so.

[shf84]

His ideology has hypocrisy built right into it when he thinks someone is doing wrong he calls them every name in the book.

[aoirthoir]

"His ideology has hypocrisy built right into it when he thinks someone is doing wrong he calls them every name in the book"

You mean names like "pathetic, murderer, serial killer, child abuser, vile, immoral, weak minded and other such pejoratives?" Or do you mean rightly pointing out how the use of such pejoratives against women simply because you disagree with them, is in fact misogyny? Which it is.

[shf84]

Again the use of an accusation instead of reason, you are a hypocrite you talk about bodily autonomy and choosing what you want to do but some how you are going to decide what is fair and tell others what they "don't get to do" Yet if I disagree with something someone does your going to whine about it to no end.

[ShesMygirl]

Tell me...have you ever been attacked?

I had a girlfriend who was raped when I was in my early twenties. Wanna know one of the things she said that really stuck with me?

"I knew guys were strong, but this was different. I felt like he could have snapped me in two without trying hard."

Don't sling words like pathetic till you have a clue what you are talking about.

Try arm wrestling a guy...then tell me how well you would do up close...with him behind you...an arm locked around your throat, and your vision closing in as you fight for air.

Until you are actually in a situation, you have no clue how you are going to react.

Self defense means absolutely nothing if the other person knows more than you do, or takes you by surprise. Tell me...how you are going to use pepper spray if you are unconscious?

I truly believe women ought to know how to defend themselves.

I take issue when one talks others down for who they are.

[Asker]

Yes. I have been attacked, by a bigger guy than myself. I left him with a dislocated shoulder and it wasn't all that difficult. It's a simple matter of preparing yourself mentally and physically.

[Red_Head_Em]

Well I'm glad you were able to but not all women are as strong and I'm sorry but I don't go around going well I could be attacked so I'll be on my guard at all times.

I have a blue belt in Judo but if I was attacked I don't know if I'd be in the right state of mind to use it.

I'm sorry you were attacked but not all women are the same.

[ShesMygirl]

You have no idea how often "being prepaired" gets women in trouble.

You got lucky. If it had been a guy closer to my skill level you would have been on the ground wondering how you got there.

Luckly most instructors teach responsibility as well as the form.

I am not commenting on your abilities, but on your expectations, and how you view woman who allow men to protect them.

[aoirthoir]

Some girls don't need someone to protect them. Some do. Some men don't need someone to protect them. Some do. A LOT of this is circumstance based. If someone with a gun (man or woman) tries to jump me, you better bet I, a man, need protecting, since I don't carry guns. The problem is not that someone thinks she needs a man to protect her, or that another woman doesn't need a man to protect her.

The real problem is those that think EVERYONE has to be LIKE THEM. It is nothing but unearned privilege when we take a person to task for feeling the need to be protected. Maybe she has an experience different from yours, so her needs are different. What if she is differently abled? Are you, in your able bodied, unearned privilege, going to tell her she can't have someone to protect her if she wants? What if she is smaller than you? What if her personality makes it harder for her to hurt someone, even in self defense, when they need it? What if she is stronger than you and has defended herself but just doesn't want to?

We all at times need help and holding others to task, SHAMING them because they don't fit your view of how people should be, is offensive.

[colegrl]

Look at all the comments below. She is being shamed herself because she does not fit into the role of lady and her veiws demasculate men. Have a littelcompassion for her.

[aoirthoir]

"Look at the..."

So because persons with unearned privilege shame her, she has the right to use her unearned privilege to shame other women? Her post is classist, ableist and misogynistic. She displays an incredible lack of compassion and a need to get her 101 on. Telling her so IS compassionate.

So it's not just the posters below that need to check their privilege, she also needs to check hers.

[colegrl]

Ableist- I can see where that is coming from. She is able bodied and has that advantage.

Classist- I don't see that at all. I didn't look at her profile, so I really don't know what class she is from or why that is even relevant to what she is saying. She does not want to rely on a man to protect her. I respect that. She is under 18, I didn't even realize what privileges being a white middle class able bodied female gave me until I took a gender studies class when I was 20. That's where compass

[aoirthoir]

How is it classist? Self defense lessons can run up to $50/hr or more. The OP LIVES in undeserved privilege. Whether she earns a great deal or saves a great deal by still living at home, she's taking advantage of disposable income that poverty stricken persons simply do not have. So to gloat about having taken lessons and thus not needing a man to protect her, IGNORES that there are just many women who CANT AFFORD such lessons. So yeah, it's classist and the op needs to check her privilege.

[shf84]

Regardless of weather your "privileged" or not to say a woman needs to rely on men to protect her is wrong. To say that poor women need it even more discriminates against the poor in it's self. Plus your overlooking the fact that she did not CHOOSE to be well off (assuming she is)

[aoirthoir]

Shf84, I NEVER said a woman needs a man to protect her. If a WOMAN CHOOSES that for herself, I WONT misogynistically challenge her CHOICES. The choice of the OP to protect herself is HER choice and I agree with HER and ONLY HER making that choice. For other women making OTHER choices, ONLY THEY should have a say in it.

[aoirthoir]

Shf84, "To say that poor women need it even more discriminates against the poor in it's self."

WRONG. That is NOT what I said. What I said is the op gloating about HER self defense lessons is PRIVILEGED language and DISMISSIVE of those women who CANNOT afford them.

"Plus your overlooking the fact that she did not CHOOSE to be well off (assuming she is)"

That doesn't give her a free pass to marginalize the poor.

[shf84]

You might not challenge her choices but I sure will is she chooses something hat is immoral and wrong. I keep getting the impression that you think every one is right that a persons choice to do this or that is somehow sacred etc. It's not people are fallible and they make lousy choices sometimes those choices affect us all. No misogyny in that just trying to fight against harmful gender roles and that helps every body.

[aoirthoir]

Sfh84, ABSOLUTELY I think that people are right to MAKE THEIR OWN decisions. As long as those decisions are NOT HURTING ANYONE, then it is none of our business WHAT they decide to do.

And please don't try to convince us you are fighting misogyny and harmful gender roles when you call women PATHETIC. That's about as stereotypical a pejorative about women as one can get.

[aoirthoir]

"You might not challenge her choices but I sure will is she chooses something hat is immoral and wrong."

I wanted to highlight this for everyone. Notice, that if a woman decides ONE of the things she wants in her lover is protection, she's now IMMORAL. Frankly if that is ALL she wants I won't call her immoral. WHY? Because she ISN'T. Out of one side of his mouth he "praises" women. Out of the other side he decides to be paternalistic and regulate what IS and IS NOT MORAL for her to do. Sick.

[shf84]

Ya a bet that moral word just curdled your stomach full of UC Berkly cool aid. "I wanted to highlight this I wanted to highlight this" ha ha ha like dropping a mach on gasoline.

I IS immoral relationships are about love if your in it for protection your using the person and that's wrong.

[aoirthoir]

"Ya a bet that moral word just curdled your stomach full of UC Berkly cool aid."

You are trying, as you have done the entire time to DISMISS views becuase YOU don't like them. Get this through your privileged head, a person MAN OR WOMAN that wants to be PROTECTED and kept FREE FROM HARM is NOT IMMORAL or AMORAL.

And you CONTINUE to frame OTHERS relationships trying to make it an EITHER OR. FALSE. Men and women OFTEN try to protect those they love. That in NO WAY implies a LACK of love.

[shf84]

Get this through you brain washed head. You know as well as I what she's talking about is a lot different that what your talking about. She's talking about gender roles men protecting women because they are men and that is wrong. It's also wrong to choose a lover because you want them to protect you instead of because you love who they are as a person. A 12 year old could see that.

[aoirthoir]

Talking about gender roles does not give her carte blanc to use ableist, misogynistic language. "It's pathetic really" means what it means. No amount of rewriting history on your part will change that.

Now, the ONLY PERSON talking about choosing a lover BECAUSE they can protect you is YOU. Your straw man argument doesn't mean WE said what YOU said. Try arguing what we ACTUALLY have said rather than MAKING THINGS UP.

[shf84]

I bought up choosing a lover because they can protect you because it is germane to the argument that's what these women do it's a consideration when they select a man simple as that.

[aoirthoir]

"I bought up choosing a lover becaus...it's a consideration when they select a man simple as that"

Your claim was that it was THE consideration, not A consideration.

The facts are that most of us choose lovers on a multitude of criteria and often we're not even aware of all of them. Even women that say they want a man to protect them are not deciding on any specific man ONLY because he can protect them. You, I and everyone else knows it. So your argument falls to pieces.

[shf84]

It makes no difference weather it's the only reason or not. It's wrong to even bring that into the relationship.

[aoirthoir]

"It makes no difference weather it's the only reason or not. It's wrong to even bring that into the relationship. "

No. It is wrong for YOU or YOUR lovers to bring that into a relationship. If two or more others are in a relationship and they are all consenting, protecting each other and being protected and WANTING to protect and be protected is ENTIRELY BETWEEN THEM.

You keep trying to conflate this with some crime or immoral conduct, it is not.

[shf84]

You keep trying

1 to confuse mutual protection based on love with the deception of using made up love as a means to get protection.

2 Denying that this is immoral and dysfunctional and harmful behavior.

[aoirthoir]

"to confuse mutual protection based on love with the deception of using made up love as a means to get protection"

Nope. YOU keep CLAIMING that people are using deception and pretending to be in love to get protection. You're making stuff up deliberately.

We've stated OFTEN that we're talking about CONSENSUAL KNOWLEDGEABLE relationships. It is clear that you are so intent on insulting women, you'll resort to active deception since you have no real basis to dismiss their personal autonomy.

[aoirthoir]

Further your point that people are getting into relationships TO GET PROTECTION is absolutely false and something NONE of us have said, nor are women doing.

Again that won't stop you from just making up whatever nonsense you want to bolster your lies.

[shf84]

So what if it's consensual? It's still harmful to the people that practice it and to society as a whole by simple virtue of its weak minded expediency. The difference is merely one of fraud vs conspiracy.

[aoirthoir]

"So what if it's consensual"

Unless a relationship is non-consensual, it's not the business of the rest of us.

"It's still harmful to the people that practice it"

No it's not. You SAY it is, but that doesn't make it so.

"and to society as a whole by simple virtue of its"

Ditto.

"weak minded expediency."

Actually it is strong minded and wise to seek protection. Protection is the entire purpose of our legal system. What is weak minded is to think that none of us need anyone else.

[shf84]

I don't believe that people consenting to do wrong is not the business of others at all we should call things the way they are not smugly look the other way and pat our selves on the back for how righteous we think we are. That stuff is a cancer on society and should never be condoned.

Seeking protection from someone your supposed to be in a relationship with out of love is wrong it's vile and it's weak minded (at best)

[aoirthoir]

"I don't believe that people consenting to do wrong is not the business of others at all...it's vile and it's weak minded"

Lovers wanting protection from each other and wanting to protect each other is NOT wrong.

"we should call things the way they are"

Actually what you are doing is MAKING UP things. Big difference.

"not smugly look the other way"

The one being smug here is you.

[shf84]

If you really had a rational argument you wouldn't feel the need to put words in my mouth or spin what I say. Neither I nor the OP are talking about mutual protection but one person getting involved with another for their protection. Do you honestly think that you can come up with this spin and not reveal your motives ?

[tex151]

I knew a chick who had the feminist attitude of I don't need a man I am independent and all this bull sh*t, and she even took self defense classes to. Well one day she was way up on her high horse and I had to knock her right off of it. I told her ok attack me then and we will shall see what happens. She did and I had her pinned on the ground in two seconds. Point is most men are bigger than women unless your a body builder, so yes you will need a guy when the time comes. You won't be saying women relying on men is pathetic when you actually do get in a fight with a guy who intends on hurting you.

[shf84]

That's a bull sh*t attitude and you know it there are tones of men who are weak or very small and wouldn't be able to fight you either but no one says that about them.

[colegrl]

How about this for a change: We spend less time talking about how to protect women and more time teaching men that it is never ok to attack a women. Most male on female violence is not done by strangers. 70% of women know their attackers. The odds of a women getting jumped in an alleyway are much less than her being hurt by her own partner. We live in society that excuses violence against women. The prevailing thought is that she must have done something to desereve it and that is just wrong.

[aoirthoir]

Shf84, um, yes they do say that about men ALL the time. It's often used in shaming language from males and females towards men labeled "wimps".

Colegrl, thankfully I grew up around different people than you, because we never view a victim as having caused zir attack. The sole one responsible is the person who was committing the violence.

[Bruce]

Shf84.........I have been between a 300 lb thug and a woman.......not a pleasant position to occupy on behalf of a strange woman......Put yourself there........sometime..........then come and talk to me ........

Regards,

Bruce

[xXSelenalenaBbyXx]

Actually,I'm a girl,but I agree with the answerer^^^

[blacktwistedsoul]

Colegrl I agree with you I think we wouldn't be having this entire thing if there were less people doing the attacking then we as girls wouldn't "need" the protection

[shf84]

It's guys that talk that kind of sh*t that are doing committing the violence in the first place. A 300 lb thug might attack any one weather they are male or female. You can throw your chest out and brag about your macho exploits somewhere else.

[aoirthoir]

Blacktwistedsoul, violence against men far outnumbers violence against women. If anything that shows men are the ones needing protection.

Bruce, your statement, while true in many cases, is also not. My mother was 4'11' and I saw her knock out a man who had mickied her drink. he was 6'plus in a bar (yes she took me into bars as a kid).

So I am of the opinion that some of us need protection some of the time. Gender and sex sometimes is a matter and sometimes it is not.

[aoirthoir]

Shf84, no it's not that kind of guy doing the violence. A person can admit that some women will find it difficult to protect themselves WITHOUT being violent themselves.



They can even admit when they HAVE protected a woman. And yes, a 300 lb thug would give MEN a difficult time as well. The one DOES NOT preclude the other. Nor does either being fact, preclude the claim that Bruce made being true.

I for one HAVE protected women in the past. AND I for one have BEEN protected by women.

[shf84]

The jist of what's being said here is that women need men to protect them. Where these men are coming from is "These guys might rape you, but I can stop them, If you do what I say and let me have you sexually" that's all it is.

[aoirthoir]

"The jist of what's being said here is that women need men to protect them."

Some are saying that.

"Where these men are coming from is "These guys might rape you, but I can stop them, If you do what I say and let me have you sexually" that's all it is"

Nope. But god forbid they stand up and protect a lover, because that's the ONLY interpretation you can arrive at in such cases. And god forbid that a woman be HAPPY to have a man willing to protect her, and she him.

[shf84]

Actually why bother to encourage the women or disenfranchise them or any thing else? Their just self determine their relationship so there's no need to change the situation any way.

Self determination is what British Petroleum should get into "We've decided that it's an undersea art project ala Christo were wrapping the ocean in a thin film of crude oil ha ha ha ha ha

[aoirthoir]

"Actually why bother to encourage the women or disenfranchise them or any thing else?"

Actually how about you stop trying to disenfranchise them? Posing this question doesn't make it right all of the sudden for you to continue to marginalize women just because they don't meet your standards.

Your BP example is wholly irrelevant and is nothing more than an attempt at more shaming language from you. You're using what is called the "tone" argument.

[shf84]

Making a comparison to clarify your line of reasoning has nothing to do with they tone of what you saying it has to do with how you reason things out.

[aoirthoir]

"Making a comparison to clarify your line of reasoning has nothing to do with they tone of what you saying it has to do with how you reason things out."

Let's see, you conflated people who have harmed no one with the worst of the worst of our society including child abusers, murderers, and serial killers and you call this "reason[ing] things out?" I call it making up crap because your chose to insult women when they want to be protected.

[shf84]

I chose to insult people in general who want to hide behind others them being women or men has nothing to do with it no one gets a pass based on their sex if it's wrong what their doing I'm going to say so no mater how much someone want's to scream woman hater or man hater or any thing else. Your judgmental assumption of an ulterior motive does not change what my actual intent is.

[aoirthoir]

"I chose to insult people in general who want to hide behind others"

You MAKE UP things about others (such as claiming they want to hide behind others) and then you use your made up claim as the basis to insult them.

" them being women or men has nothing to do with it"

Agreed. I've already pointed out you are willing to address your pejoratives at anyone. Since you have no factual basis to insult someone, you just make things up and make extreme comparisons that have nothing to do with them.

[aoirthoir]

"if it's wrong what their doing I'm going to say so"

You say it's wrong EVEN WHEN it is not. Saying it is wrong, doesn't make it wrong.

"Your judgmental assumption of an ulterior motive does not change what my actual intent is."

I don't have to assume anything, your words demonstrate it. My judgement is based on facts, that is the words you've used. You will make a lying claim about these persons, then you will state they are immoral based on your lie, then you will proceed with pejoratives.

[aoirthoir]

One does not have to BELIEVE they are a misogynist to be one. By the fact that you show hate to women, even a subset of women, you fulfil the very definition of misogyny. The fact that you ALSO hate subsets of men, does not make you NOT a hater of women and not a misogynist. It just also makes you a misandrist.

So I am not suggesting you THINK you are a misogynist or have it as an ulterior motive. Rather I am saying you ARE a misogynist, regardless of what you think.

[shf84]

I am none of these things regardless of what you think you calling someone a misogynist does not make them one and misogyny is the hatred of women in general because they are women not a bunch of women doing something stupid because their doing something stupid. You don't even know what the words your using mean.

[aoirthoir]

"misogyny is the hatred of women in general because they are women not a bunch of women doing something stupid"

This is false. Misogynists don't say "I hate women because they are women." Rather they will claim that they are objecting to BEHAVIOR of women. The fact that they think they have a right to police the behavior of women is what makes them misogynistic. Kind of how you think you have a right to police women's behavior. Sorry, but you fit the bill of a misogynist perfectly.

[shf84]

It makes no difference what so ever what a misogynist says I'm sure they would say that but the truth is that unlike me, their actual problem is with women but you know that as well as I do, you just hopped I wouldn't notice and you could continue to use the accusation of misogyny to discredit me because it's much easier than casting a reasonable doubt on what I'm saying.

[markml]

Because that's the way it works in the animal kingdom, and also the way it has worked in human evolution for thousands of years BEFORE pepper spray was even invented!

If you feel you don't want a man to protect you, that's fine...

But don't insult men by implying that you no longer need us, simply because you have replaced us by a cheap can of pepper spray instead!

If back in the day, you would have been able to fight like an amazon warrior and hold your own the same way every man in those days had to, then go ahead and say, "We never needed men to protect us!"

At least admit that the role of men protecting women was at one time important...and so that's why while women may not need men to protect them anymore, there's absolutely nothing abnormal about them wanting it.

[CynicalSam]

Well I'm not very fit, never taken a martial arts class in my life, and I am absolutely positive, that if I was a rapist, and I wanted to rape you, I could. Your overconfidence is dangerous. A once-a-week class that teaches you how to knee a guy in the balls and a small container of a semi-noxious chemical is not enough to even the fight against someone who literally has 60 lbs more muscle than you do, and that is without introducing things like knives, guns, tire irons, or who knows what else into the equation. If you want to tell yourself you don't need a man, fine by me, I don't care, but don't convince yourself that you are any less of a target.

[Asker]

I've been attacked by a bigger guy once before when I was only 15 and left him with a dislocated shoulder. It wasn't all that difficult either.

[loverorbestfriend]

Cut this feminism bullsh*t out...women need men for protection not just in your DNA and genes (written ahead of your birth btw) but because pepper spray and or self-defense lessons only take you so far, and by the way, men invented both...not to sound sexist because I'm not, it's just irritating when people try to think the sexes are all equal, no way, men are better at some things (incl. protecting) and women are better at some things, and together, that is where the gold is, so, instead of trying to act all independent woman (which will change as you age), note that you need men for protection one way or the other...remember, a man who knows self-defense can defeat a woman who knows self-defense and pepper spray doesn't work on everyone, and, when it comes to TRUE self-defense, men occupy 96% of the armed forces in artillery and infantry, the true protectors of society...think with your mind, not with your emotions...

[Mesonfielde]

Yes, the true mindless followers of orders to murder other people for money. That's absolutely so noble, I don't understand how men can be so "great"!

You should think with your brain, not pre-learned irrational thought patterns learned when you were like 6.

[loverorbestfriend]

J?nos K?d?r was voted best Hungarian of the 20th century...I agree...listen to your countrymen...power and aggressiveness is life.

[Sa11yU]

listen; it really does not matter what your sex is in self defense or any martial art, I am the only girl in my martial arts class and I defend myself and win matches against guys..

the thing is; girls can do it both if we really want too. We want to be protected because it makes us feel special in some way but in truth, I really don't like guys that stand up for me when I can handle it myself...thats just irritating...

[ekat22]

I don't think its so much that they "need" protection, but rather it feels great when a man stands up for you. There seems to be this romantic element about it, and not even just in a sexual way. For example, an obnoxious drunk guy wouldn't get his nasty beer breath out of my face one night while out with my cousins. My male cousin finally intervened and told him to get away from me,sure I didn't NEED my cousin to do that. But, it felt great that he cares about me enough to defend my honor. I think we are closer because of it.

[nollie33]

I think it's great that you are taking control of your safety and not depending on others to do it for you, but I don't think that having someone else watch out for you is pathetic. Regardless of any personal measures I might take to be safer, I still think most males would trump whatever effort I could make. It may not PC to say, but males are more intimidating and *generally* stronger.

Even though I believe that is the case, I still believe every girl should take her own safety seriously and be pro-active about it, just as you have. I'd like to take some self defence classes too, but for now I carry pepper spray and I'm working on getting my permit to carry a concealed handgun.

[dollme777]

i think you have things misconstrued a tad, yes there are some girls that want a man like that for those reasons and maybe because she can't take it into her own hands, maybe she doesn't want to. Also there are some girls that just want to feel protected they like that masculine feel they don't want a wimp for a boyfriend even if they where a girl that could handle there own. I want to know that my guy could protect me and that he isn't a bitch and believe me I can handle my own but I want him to be able to do the same. who wants a wimp right? Its not pathetic at all to each is own you know?

[aoirthoir]

I agree with you that it is not pathetic at all. However, if a man is unable for any reason to protect himself or another, should we call him a wimp? What about a man that is wheelchair bound? A man with no arms? A man with PSTD? A gentle man who doesn't want to hurt others?

As in my comment to the Original Poster, we do not want to let our own undeserved privilege cause us to be dismissive of others.

[dollme777]

Well I'm just answering what was asked....obviously I'm not considering the handicapped...and a girl who really understands what I'm saying she knows the what type of category of guys I'm talking about.

[shf84]

The "masculine feel"? Masculine is an artificial construct it's NOT REAL this is something society has made up. I don't want a whimpy woman either but I sure don't expect her to protect me or fight my battles for me or go running to her that IS pathetic.

[aoirthoir]

Once again, it is NOT pathetic if a person needs, desires and asks for protection.

[shf84]

To say that women need protection or that they want it or to select your mate based on their ability to protect you is pathetic.

[aoirthoir]

I know this is a shock to you shf84, but ALL of us need protection. And again you keep setting up a false dichotomy. It is atypical that a person would choose a mate based SOLEY on their ability to protect. However, that being ONE criteria is NOT pathetic. Sometimes protection is physical, sometimes its someone to comfort us when we're faced with life's obstacles, sometimes it's just someone to hold. Calling such decisions pathetic is simply disgusting.

[shf84]

You know as well as I do she's talking about men protecting women because women are helpless as a whole. Your reasoning is so whacked out by what I've seen so far I don't see how any one could even talk to you.

[shf84]

"she's talking about men protecting women because women are helpless as a whole."

Emphasis on the "she" has nothing to do with what I said I'm quoting her your all tangled up again.

[aoirthoir]

"You know as well as I do she's talking about men protecting women because women are helpless as a whole."

"Emphasis on the "she" has nothing to do with what I said I'm quoting her your all tangled up again."

Except dollme777 nor the op said women are helpless as a whole. So perhaps your "helpless as a whole" comment was meant for someone else?

Dollme in fact said just the opposite of "women are helpless as whole." So again, perhaps you posted this answer in the wrong place.

[shf84]

Yup wrong place my connection is slow and the screen jumps on me sometimes.

[aoirthoir]

Yeah I figured you were crazy, but no THAT crazy. :D

[shf84]

Maybe there is some truth to "takes one to know one" after all.

[CuddlyCarla]

From a biological perspective, women pursue dominant men as well as men who are assertive and confident because they are more capable of protecting them. The instinct is a cavewoman throwback but there nonetheless. For the record, I am a strong woman too who can kick some major @$$ but that doesn't stop me from being interested in a strong man. And sorry, I've taken self defense classes and psychology courses myself, a biological male is still inherently stronger, it's a fact. You can be as tough and prepared as you want to be, they still have the advantage and always will. I agree you should do what you can to protect yourself on your own though, but biology is a reality.

[EberWavesofGrain]

Don't be too feminist, now. It's not pathetic.

Sure, some girls are weak and do need someone to fend for them, but some girls (such as yourself) can take care of themselves.

Still, there is nothing wrong with having someone who is able and willing to protect you as well.

The whole "protective man" thing goes back to the old ages, because that was a general role of a guy, and there is nothing wrong with keeping that today.

Yes, it is good to be able to defend yourself and I applaud you for taking the steps necessary to be ready, but if you've got a strong boyfriend there's nothing wrong in letting him protect you as well.

Sometimes, it just boils down to their ego. Guys want to be important and they want to impress you. And you know what? If they love you, they want to protect you. That's not such a bad thing, is it? (:

[Xia90]

yep guys are necessary.

[honey0509]

Ok harsh much? but yes in a sense you are right. But majority of women aren't like you. In fact there should be more women that do this however speaking in the sense of reality to put it out in plain and simple, at the end of everynight we want our man by our sides because they not only know how to love us but will protect us over their own. its comfort and the feeling of knowing he will always be there for you. You can be independent as much as you want. there's nothing pathetic about a man holding his ground to protect a women he loves. And there's nothing wrong with a women wanting that.

[shf84]

Nothing wrong with protecting each other no. A woman hiding behind a man or getting into a relationship so she can get protection like a prison bitch there IS something very wrong with that.

[honey0509]

Ok well what do you do if your stick thin, lanky girl? shoot some pepper spray at him and run? some girls aren't fit to protect themselves but like I said this can go 2 ways. They should, but they don't want to

[shf84]

A lot of men are stick thin as well but they are expected to stand up and fight even if it's suicide. If your too small arm your self, take precautions, what ever it takes. Don't be a user selecting your lover as someone to hide behind.

[honey0509]

Okay good example, but a stick thin guys guna call his buddies for help majority of the time, and unless he knows any type of mma, then he's screwed against a guy bigger than he is. YOur making it seem like women are trying to be users? No I'm saying we want our man to stick up for us. I myself would never "hide", but stand beside him. If he stands up for me I would be fighting with him that's who I am. I'm clearly implying woman like the feeling of protection and support is all.

[aoirthoir]

PATHETIC! PATHETIC! Seesh shf84, can't you get another schtick? You don't get to decide another couples' dynamic. You don't get to decide that because you have a different life experience than another, that THEIR DECISIONS which aren't hurting a danged soul, are more valid than theirs. Honey0509 has a great answer. Those that want protection SHOULD NEVER be demeaned. Nor should those that don't.

[shf84]

Ok let's try vile that's a good word for it. And you keep saying that over and over "you don't get to decide other peoples dynamic" like you think any thing a person concocts is just fine no mater what it is. Seems the emperor has no clothes.

[aoirthoir]

No vile is NOT a better word for it. In what world do you live in which DEMEANING women is acceptable.

Absolutely I DO think that whatever manner of lifestyle a person "concocts" for themselves AS LONG AS IT IS ADULT, CONSENSUAL and NOT HURTING ANYONE, is ABSOLUTELY #&@! fine. So again I'll say YOU don't get to determine how people live. You can voice an opinion, but thankfully your ideas DON'T get the say in how people live.

[shf84]

Oh but my ideas do get a say in how people live, how do you think politicians get elected to office or whackos get to turn our university sociology departments into bizarre cults with their own code words and rituals. Ideas just by opening their mouth and speaking or pressing buttons on a keyboard and it sure has affected a lot of people hasn't it?

[aoirthoir]

"Oh but my ideas do get a say in how people live,"

You give yourself too much credit. We are all aware that you've had little say in the relationships that people enter into.

But, since you feel you have a say, what should happen to a "PATHETIC" (as you call her) woman when she chooses to let someone protect her?

[shf84]

She should be able to live in a world in which such behavior is not acceptable and is seen as what it is. If she persists in the behavior it's her problem but we don't need a society that presents such behavior as acceptable or encourages women to engage in it.

[aoirthoir]

You keep using the term behavior in a manner that implies she is doing something wrong, even morally. You've even compared a woman choosing to be defended with her choosing to commit a crime. Let's get this straight, it is not a crime and it is not morally wrong for a woman to choose to be defended.

The kind of society we need is one that allows all persons, including women, to make their own decisions. I trust the individual woman to decide what is right for her. You don't trust her.

[shf84]

I trust any one to decide what's right for them until they start making choices that are obviously self destructive unlike you I can see reality for what it is.

And it is morally wrong to pick your lover based on their ability to defend you..

[aoirthoir]

"I trust any one to decide what's right for them until they start making choices that are obviously self destructive"

Actually wanting to be protected is the opposite of self-destructive.

"And it is morally wrong to pick your lover based on their ability to defend you."

No it's not. But again you are using a straw man, because NO ONE HERE BUT YOU is making this claim. Just keep making stuff up, because you have no actual argument.

[shf84]

That's what the original post is about women thinking they need men to protect them becoming involved with men out of seeking protection. And that's wrong it's not a persons job to do any thing based on their sex including protect someone, protection shouldn't even be a consideration

[aoirthoir]

"That's what the original post is about women thinking they need men to protect them"

This part was from the OP.

"becoming involved with men out of seeking protection."

This part was not. You added this.

"And that's wrong"

No it's not.

"it's not a persons job to do any thing based on their sex including protect someone,"

Agreed, it's no their JOB.

"protection shouldn't even be a consideration"

In your relationships, sure. Other people get to decide what they want in a relationship.

[shf84]

Other people might decide a lot of things but it it's wrong then others will pick up on that and say so. You think every thing goes, but it doesn't

[aoirthoir]

"Other people might decide a lot of things but it it's wrong then others will pick up on that and say so."

Conversely other people can believe or claim it is wrong when it is not.

"You think every thing goes, but it doesn't "

I can only conclude you are deliberately lying at this point. I have said NUMEROUS times that everything doesn't go. And NUMEROUS times you keep lyingly claiming I said whatI did no say.

So being protected is immoral, but lying is moral. Interesting.

[shf84]

Bottom line you can't see how things that are immoral hurt others unless their is a direct cause and effect relationship. looking at a potential mate and saying "oh , I bet he could protect me" is prostitution for protection but I doubt you have a problem with prostitution for cash either, because it " hurts no one"

[mmike0]

Answerer: Just as a man can call his buddies, what's wrong with a girl calling her girls? Please before you respond think about it vice versa

[Jake200]

it's evolution and it applies to the rule of jungle, large predators are usually scared of things bigger than them unless they hunt in groups and since humans stand on two feet the usually appear pretty large and since men are taller than women they appear more threatening.

so woman are hardwired to like big tall man since it will be seen as a higher chance of survival

lets say you encounter a bear now your best chance would be to scared it off by appearing taller than it you could do this put putting your arms up in the air or if you have a child put it on top of your shoulders.

Now if you had a big tall guy with you with a loud and deep voice your chances of surviving this this situation is increased.

That's how people thought way back then.

[darkknight1x]

Women need us to protect them because we are stronger physically and emotionally. (Well at least most of us.) We know you women are amazing and we feel the need to protect you. I think its pathetic that it seems like we always are the ones that have to initiate a conversation with you women and ask you out instead of it being the other way around. Don't you know that we are intimidated by your looks. Women aren't as intimidated by looks than we are. Why can't you women do the simple thing of asking us out and in return we will protect you from harm?

[quickarcticfox]

This roots back to primitive level when a woman wouldn't touch the ancestors of cockroaches and the man would come and smash it to death, kidding (Well, it could be true).

They just want everything to be all right. It just means she wants someone to talk reassuringly to her, look after her safety, and assure her when she needs it that things are going to be OK.

It also means coming to her protection, when she needs it. If someone is being a jerk to her, standing up for her. If she’s being threatened, fighting for her. Letting her know that someone will fight for her, and nothing will get in her way.

They are different, overtly emotional (You see it when the guy meets the girl finally in the end at the theatre). They just like to be cared about. And we like doing that!

[shf84]

It's a myth that women are like that. Women are not children and not so immature as to need a man to be their father. And the only men that like doing that are the ones who are too insecure to deal with a healthy woman. They want a woman who will defer to them be dependent on them and never question them. Makes things awfully convenient for an immature man.

[katrinasanchez]

Wow that's a stereotype right there. I don't know any females who fit any of those descriptions. If a guy tried to protect us when we didn't need it, we sure as hell would be p*ssed off.

[kiss_me_Kate]

Ok, I see what you're getting at. But your attitude towards it is the reason chivalry is dying off, yet you complain about that too.

Yes, I can kick someone's ass if I have to. I can be quite frightening and systematic too.

BUT! I don't care to act that way, it's not ladylike. I like to feel feminine sometimes (something which is also dwindling with chivalry). I know my the limits of my self protection. I appreciate the natural protective instinct of a man. If he doesn't have it around you, he 1. Is not well raised (gentleman) & 2. Doesn't care about you.

Also a man's protective aura "eases" a woman. I feel more relaxed or calm. And if I have anxiety, nothing eases it better then a cuddle with someone I respect and like. Also, it regulates (or resets) your hormones when his pheromones interact with yours and your skin reacts to his. Being in a relaxed state, a woman is more likely to be fertile and have sex. There's a lot of science behind it, search it up.

[vtewq]

Ive taken several different forms of fighting, and I can take care of myself in a fight. Its not a matter of a girl NEEDING the guy to protect her, and not taking matters into their own hands, I definitely do that just fine. But it does make me feel cared for when my boyfriend will stand up for me in an instant or fight a guy who doesn't know how to back off, its like although I CAN take care of myself its really cool to know that he cares enough, like since I'm his girlfriend he's not ashamed to let other people know, infact he's proud of it. But I got in a fight with a girl who was a total slut and wouldn't leave my boyfriend alone even after he said no, so its not so much about being helpless as it is about being there for each other as bestfriends who always cover for the other, lol teamwork :)

[19876p]

I agree with you that every woman should know how to defend themselves. I mean a lot of women don't even know how to throw a decent punch. When they are in fights they slap and pull hair. That won't work on men. That's probably why a lot of women get attacked because they don't know how to defend themselves and men know they can overpower them. Good for you for fighting back.Maybe you should teach your girlfriends how to get in that mindset to defend themselves. Teach them how to throw a decent punch.That's what I did with my girlfriends now they know how to defend themselves without a man.

[Chaaz]

Nice! I love a woman who can fight! And I love girls who can kick ass, but they say they can't, that is sexy.

Why can't it be the opposite? Men like women who can kick ass. And it would save us the trouble of having to be "protective" the whole freaking time. =)

I think you're cool. but IF you are unfeminine that is another story. Hate butches who hate men just because they think they are doing something political.

The ability to kick ass does not inherently mean one is feminine or masucline. =)

Respect!

(btw I am not some fag/gay weakling guywho is into dominatrix lol.. I just think it's cool that girls can also bring it.)

[katrinasanchez]

Well I guess a lot of times a guy has an advantage. I've been in tae kwon do for many years now but I know that if a guy was twice my weight, there's no way I'd be able to get him off me if he pinned my arms and legs down with his body. I had a guy say to me "You know if I wanted to, I can easily take what I wanted from you (sexually)". You know what the sad thing was? It was true. Not because of our genders but because this guy has boxed for 8 years, played lacrosse and football for 5 and hockey for 4 years. Maybe I'm one of the quickest people in my tae kwon do class but if that guy attacked me and I didn't dodge even one hit from that guy. I'm not naive to think that I'd be able to stay on my feet. I'm not saying that I think women need protecting. I'm saying that a lot of guys who attack us on the street are strong and pepper spray is not going to help us if he comes from behind. He locks your arms behind your back, you want to flip him? He's twice your weight, you can't.

[scar1]

Its ironic when women are generally stronger than men is every way except for 2. They tend not to be able to control their emotions and therefore tend not to be logical and we have can generally lift more weight. Although a lot of the women's self defense class are completely useless and will only worsen the situation. Hitting a guy in the groin will only activate an adrenaline increase making faster, stronger, more violent and more resilient or temporary immune to pain. Unless you make him throw up or bleed to death internally. Women are genetically built for combat. just make sure you learn a good art not all martial arts are equal.

wing-chung kung fu is especially good for a female because of the speed it requires.

[toulouse]

"Its ironic when women are generally stronger than men is every way except for 2. They tend not to be able to control their emotions and therefore tend not to be logical and we have can generally lift more weight."

:)What other strengths then reason & strength are you considering? -seem to be pretty major strengths & Not true that emotion cancels out reason, If you are able to control your emotions with reason you are way better of. If you avoid/dont understand your & others emotion you can not be rational.

[superman41569]

not all girls want to beat but up people some are scared as hell walking be them self an yes it would be nice if they can take care of it them self the rape crime rate will go down a lot but think about it we all can't be the same some guys are kinda like girls and only the brave can fight for your country...

not everyone is made to fight an sometimes girls who are strong kinda scare me and people are the way they are so they can attract what they want because that's how they feel that's who they are an guys naturally( <<<<<note its in our gene to want to protect) so its not pathetic its nature at work but don't get mad be happy life is too short to feel bad or p*ssed so find away to laugh like check out this link and feel better (from the brave and very bored):D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DjIg_IXyYs

[Anonymous]

because no matter how tough you think you are, a fully grown man is still likely to be stronger than you. I commend you for taking the steps to become stronger and be able to protect yourself, but that doesn't mean that you are as strong as a man. I feel a lot safer when I'm with a man because guys who attack women are cowards. they attack women partly because they know women are physically weaker and easier to conquer. when you are with a man, coward ass attackers are less likely to try you because they don't want to deal with a man's strength.

[shf84]

I could hang with a bunch of guys that are bigger than me for the same reason but what would that make me? A coward who is always trying to cover his ass and USING his friends to do it.

[Opinion Owner]

Your guy friends wouldn't care about you in the same way as a good boyfriend, husband, or father would. don't let your androgynous feminist agenda blind you from common sense. most men are physically stronger than women and they have 4x upper body strength than we do. if a man was to attack a man, it would pretty much be a fair fight (barring extreme weight/height differences). there are very few women who would be a match for most men, making ur analogy BS

[aoirthoir]

Anon, shf84's analogy is nonsense anyhow. Someone asking for help is not a coward, pathetic, repulsive, disgusting, dump, lame, insane, a user or any of the other insulting and ableist words that so many on here are flinging around in their privilege. In different situations we all need or want protection. Nothing wrong with that.

In many cases you are right, a fight between two men may be more evenly matched than between a woman and a man. But not always. Good points all around.

[shf84]

My friends probably wouldn't feel as strongly about protecting me as your boyfriend would would they? That's because I'm not using a romantic attachment as a pretense to get them to protect me. Your boyfriend does it because he loves you and thinks you love him in the same way even though your in it partly for protection and he has no idea he's being used.

As to the guy, girl , space alien etc who closed his eyes and hit a bunch of keys on his key board for a username read his stuff; nut ball.

[aoirthoir]

Now we finally see the result of the OP's calling other women pathetic and WHY I am opposed to such classist language. Notice how shf84 KNOWS now WHY a woman is with a man, and boils it down to one, and ONLY one reason:

"That's because I'm not using a romantic attachment as a pretense to get them to protect me. "

"thinks you love him"

"he has no idea he's being used."

So, she's looking to her lover for support, and thus that's the ONLY reason she's with him and CANT possibly love him. Uh huh

[Opinion Owner]

Aorthoir you are on the money with that!

shf84, if you are going to go around giving "advice" to people on here you might want to be more objective when answering questions instead of perverting it with your own warped, twisted attitudes hidden behind a feminist facade. I find it odd that you hold these views and consider yourself a male feminist. I know that "men and women are equal" is pretty universal among most people, but I think you got it twisted. men and women are equal in value but..

[Opinion Owner]

Not equal in every single characteristic. and that should be okay. we don't have to be exactly alike, have the same weaknesses and strength to be equal. why can't men and women just be? why do people believe that men and women must be exactly the same in every area if we are to be equal to each other? sexual dimorphism is real. *rolls eyes* is it a societal construct that men have genetically and biologically 4X upper body strength, more testosterone, greater muscle mass and retention

[Opinion Owner]

Patriarchy has nothing to do with this. it's how humans are designed ;) even though a woman may be physically strong, a physically strong man will take a woman down with his bare hands. don't let your agenda delude you from the obvious facts!

[Opinion Owner]

And since you claim to be a feminist, I am going to assume you have some knowledge on rape/sexual assault (a "feminist issue") and are somewhat versed on gender issues..if you do have that knowledge, then it seems like you would know that violence against women is one of the most widespread violations of human rights. obviously since women are naturally less physically strong than men, that a woman would be more likely to be victimized in a violent and sexual manner.

[Opinion Owner]

So much more likely that 1 in 4 women have experienced a sexual assault against them. denying the fact that women are more physically vulnerable than a man is just a bold faced LIE. if I am walking to my car after work and I am by myself I am much more likely to be harmed. if I am with a coworker (if one is there that night) then I am less likely. if I am with my BOYFRIEND, guess what the odds of someone physically attacking me are way way down.

[Opinion Owner]

Many men who are not delusional to the fact that women are physically weaker than men have no issue with wanting to protect her and keep her just the presence of a man being there makes a woman safer in a vulnerable situation. pretending that this reality isn't there does not help feminism at all.

[Opinion Owner]

You are one of those extreme "feminists" that have this condescending view towards womenfolk who they claim to be advocating for and you're completely ignoring scientific facts to repute your view point. yes there are many men who are not stronger than women. but did you know that many rapes are planned in advance and that a man who is intent on physically attacking a woman is likely to target one that he can handle?

[Opinion Owner]

If he is very small and in poor shape he might attack a young girl, but say if he was an average sized man who was stronger than you guess what you would be fcked! that is the point that you seem to be missing. what do you think about patriarchy and its effects on the exploitation and violence against women? don't you think that might have something to do why a small/weak woman is even more vulnerable than a small/weak man just based on the fact that she is a woman?

[aoirthoir]

Anon, you have many valid points. I will say though that in any PARTICULAR circumstance a specific woman might be stronger than a specific man (as you would agree).

My point in all of these posts is, IF a woman CHOOSES a mate for ANY reason, including among them seeking protection, INSULTING her for not thinking she is able to defend herself sure as HADES ain't gonna give her the wherewithal to LEARN to defend herself.

[aoirthoir]

Many have pointed out the dearth of women in certain fields (math for instance) exists because women that tried to enter were insulted and discouraged. So imagine a woman going to the OP or shf84 for self defense lessons and being told by them she is PATHETIC. How on goddesses' green earth is THAT going to ENCOURAGE her to continue her lessons? Well, imagine the same woman coming here and seeing such ageless tropes and by the very persons CLAIMING to SUPPORT Strong women.

[aoirthoir]

What she learns in these cases is that YET AGAIN someone in society is telling her SHE'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH. She's NOT meeting THEIR standards. She's YET AGAIN disenfranchised because she was too meek or scared or had lived a life of abuse or she's felt she was too small to learn anything, or for ANY OTHER REASON she'd avoided learning to defend herself and relied entirely on others.

How about instead of calling them PATHETIC, we ENCOURAGE such women instead? Is that TOO F'n HARD? REALLY?

[shf84]

True women are general weaker than men though not all men by a long shot. Taking your boyfriend or some friends with you as a precaution seems fine if you think you in an aria where your in danger sure that makes sense. Picking out a boyfriend because you think he''ll make a good security guard is disgusting relationships are about love, about caring for each other not about using each other. Violence against women is a problem but you don't pervert you love live over it.

[shf84]

The hippy self righteousness has reached a boiling point now he's using curse words. The OP is not really condemner the women she's condemning the behavior actually. Like saying drug use is pathetic or committing burglary is pathetic. Harsh words but not really a big deal unless you think that the people behaving that way are really that weak and stupid or childish.

and why assume the woman is somehow unable to make choices for her self?

[shf84]

Actually why bother encouraging the women or disenfranchising or any thing else? Their just self determining their relationships. Self determination is what British Petroleum should get into

"We've decided that it's an undersea art project ala Christo were wrapping the ocean in a thin film of crude oil.

[aoirthoir]

Chrimeny this needs debunked because AGAIN shf84 is making arguments NONE of us made. So let's break it down shall we...

"True women are general weaker than men though not all men by a long shot."

Agreed. We ALL agree with this and that there are many men weaker than many women.

" Taking your boyfriend or some friends with you as a precaution seems fine if you think you in an aria where your in danger sure that makes sense."

Right. That is EXACTLY what ALL of us are talking about.

[aoirthoir]

"Picking out a boyfriend because you think he''ll make a good security guard is disgusting "

NO ONE BUT YOU has been saying this. NO ONE. It's called a Straw Man. You ignore the ACTUAL argument we are making and present something ELSE we are NOT arguing as if we ARE arguing it.

"relationships are about love, about caring for each other not about using each other."

Mostly I agree. But if a couple is in it for something else and it is consensual, so be it. It's not our business to interfere.

[aoirthoir]

" Violence against women is a problem but you don't pervert you love live over it."

No one is. Your straw man is NOT why people are getting into relationships, though you keep bringing it up, because your entire objection to what we saying (that women should not be called pathetic) hinges on your ability to play bait and switch. Not a single person here has said that people get into relationships just for protection. Again since you don't get it, NOT A SINGLE PERSON HERE.

Except for you.

[aoirthoir]

"The OP is not really condemner the women she's condemning the behavior actually. Like saying drug use is pathetic or committing burglary is pathetic."

The "your not stupid, your DECISIONS are" defense.

Also are comparing wanting to be protected with buglary. Really? That's called victim blaming.

"why assume the woman is somehow unable to make choices for her self?"

Another straw man. We're saying she IS able to and calling her PATHETIC for her decisions is repugnant.

[aoirthoir]

"Actually why bother encouraging the women or disenfranchising or any thing else?"

Actually why not just stop disenfranchising them?

"Their just self determining their relationships."

That's RIGHT. They ARE. Remember this nugget:

"why assume the woman is somehow unable to make choices for her self?"

So how about it shf84? Why do you keep assuming she is unable to make her own choices?

BP comparison is irrelevant and an attempt at shaming language. It is the "TONE" argument.

[shf84]

Actually forming a relationship with a man for protection is exactly what the OP is talking about. You calling it a straw man argument either indicates that you don't understand the post or your trying to muddy the water. And yes I remember that "nugget" and I stand by it women in general can think perfectly well for themselves but women or any one else that thinks they need to hide behind their lover for protection is wrong.

[shf84]

The problem here is you don't seem to understand that condemning behavior in a hand full of people from a group does not mean you condemn the group. You keep accusing me of saying women are disgusting etc but that's not what I said. What I said is that f***ed up women are disgusting which they are. Your so busy pushing your agenda and pointing your finger in every ones face like a typical Berkly Torquemada the you don't stop to think.

[aoirthoir]

"The problem here is you don't seem to understand that condemning behavior in a hand full of people from a group does not mean you condemn the group. "

First, there is no "behavior" to condemn. There are many persons, men and women, from all walks of life that find themselves in need of being defended. This is NOT behavior that should be condemned. Doing so is VICTIM BLAMING.

Ridiculously comparing those persons to serial killers and child abusers DOENS'NTmake them deserving of condemnation.

[aoirthoir]

Because they are NOT serial killers and child abusers.

"You keep accusing me of saying women are disgusting etc but that's not what I said."

Again you are using a STRAW MAN. I didn't accuse you of that. I accused you of calling women PATHETIC which you did. You tried to use the "YOUR not pathetic, your DECISIONS are" defense. That doesn't cut it. Telling a person her decisions are pathetic is as insulting as saying she is pathetic. And you know it. So cut the bs.

[aoirthoir]

" What I said is that f***ed up women are disgusting which they are."

shf84 compares women seeking protection to:

Drug user. Check.

Burgler. Check.

Serial killer. Check.

F***ed up. Check.

User of men. Check.

THIS is working ELIMINATE gende roles? Making up such nasty comparisons for women THAT HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG? They've not done ANYTHING but MAKE UP THEIR OWN minds about how they PERSONALLY live. But why let them when he can QUESTION their choices and INSULT them and their decisions.

[aoirthoir]

"Your so busy pushing your agenda"

Yeah? My AGENDA is PERSONAL AUTONOMY. So yeah I WILL push that. I believe in RESPECTING a woman's RIGHT TO CHOSE. If I think there is a BETTER way than her choice, I offer RESOURCES. INSULTING her like you have done, WILL NOT HELP. But showing her that yes, in many circumstances she CAN DEFENDER HERSELF, not calling her pathetic, will empower her to do so.. It's why many women are not in the engineering fields. HELP not INSULT. You should try it bucko.

[aoirthoir]

" and pointing your finger in every ones face like a typical Berkly Torquemada"

This is called the "tone" argument. The "way" I am addressing the issue is "unacceptable" to shf84. The fact that I am speaking the truth matters little. He's determined to use insulting language about women that make decisions he disagrees with, comparing them to users of men, serial killers, child abusers, they are f***ed up, so he's not going to let a little thing like reality, truth and facts get in his way.

[aoirthoir]

" the you don't stop to think."

And this is the most classic of all. While he is using unthinking comparisons of women that choose to be defended with serial killers, child abusers, burglers, drug users and other nonsensicals, he then convinces himself that my point on point logical answers are because I don't stop to think. How's that delusion thing working out for you shf84?

[shf84]

Another canned response that is only germane to one way of thinking and can not be applied eclectically. I say you don't stop to think because you don't. I use an example of a much more serious offense to highlight the immorality of a lesser one and you think I believe them to be equal. I point out the flaws in your thinking by comparing you to Torquemada and you call it a "tone argument" I don't like the way your saying things when in fact I don't like the way you reason things out.

[shf84]

Now; if someone thinks the attitude behind someones speaking does not reveal something about how they reason things out that person is badly mistaken.

[aoirthoir]

" I use an example of a much more serious offense to highlight the immorality of a lesser one and you think I believe them to be equal."

No I believe you are CONFLATING the two not EQUATING. It's a common tactic. Regardless of your intent, conflating two divergent topics like these is used in arguing to STOP THINKING PROCESSES. It forms a deliberate connection between one HARMLESS act, with another HARMFUL act.

There is no reason to compare a woman's rightfully free choice to crimes.

[aoirthoir]

" I point out the flaws in your thinking by comparing you to Torquemada"

Except you haven't pointed out the flaws in my thinking. Rather what you keep doing is "comparing me" to this or that. That IS the tone argument.

"I don't like the way you reason things out"

Except you have yet to address any of those things I've reasoned out.

[aoirthoir]

So here are my points:

All persons of all genders should be able to do the following without marginalization:

Defend themselves.

Be defended by others.

Enter ADULT CONSENTING relationships

Live by free will.

Have FULL bodily autonomy.

NOT be victimized.

NOT be victim blamed.

NOT be humiliated or hurt because of their decisions.

NOT be accused of immorality for making personal choices.

So there is a basic sum of what I and others have been saying. Address THOSE without ad hominems or strawmen?

[aoirthoir]

"Now; if someone thinks the attitude behind someones speaking does not reveal something about how they reason things out that person is badly mistaken."

Pointing out that someone is using the tone argument doesn't deny that emotions lead to at least some of our decisions. Rather, it acknowledges that emotion is VALID. It is VALID for someone to be angry when they are marginalized, beaten, abused, denied employement, denied equal access to common public facilities, are insulted and so on.

[aoirthoir]

Pointing out that someone has done such things, might be done in an rightfully angry tone. The one abusing another doesn't get to complain that they aren't being told about their abuse in a sweet tender voice.

[shf84]

What this boils down to is you don't want to think that a person engaging in despicable behavior hurts society at large. You want what is done for less than honorable motives placed on the same level as what is done for honorable motives. To think that laziness is as good as honest work or to say that having no confidence in your self and hiding behind others is as good as believing in your self is harmful in it's very nature and must be spoken out against.

[aoirthoir]

"What this boils down to is you don't want to think that a person engaging in despicable behavior hurts society at large."

Wrong. Rather, I do not call things despicable when they are not.

"You want what is done for less than honorable motives placed on the same level as what is done for honorable motives."

Wanting to be protected is not 'less than honorable'.

"To think that laziness is as good as honest work"

Another conflation to add to your list. This has nothing to do with the topic.

[aoirthoir]

"or to say that having no confidence in your self and hiding behind others is as good as believing in your self is harmful in it's very nature and must be spoken out against."

Having confidence is a benefit. We don't help those that lack it by calling them or their decisions pathetic, immoral, vile, and conflating them with serial killers, child abusers, users of men and using other inflamatory language. Rather, doing so saps them of that which they do have.

[shf84]

Wanting your lover to protect you is cowardly no one should even be considering that. It is less than honorable. Conflation is an attempt to confuse two things that are similar not an attempt to use one to illustrate aspects of the other yet one more concept you have misapplied. But this is just another tool to attack the integrity of the person your debating like accusing them of hatred toward various groups. Shows you can't come up with an honest rebuttal.

[aoirthoir]

"Wanting your lover to protect you is cowardly"

No it is not.

"no one should even be considering that."

Everyone should be considering it and wanting MUTUAL protection.

"It is less than honorable."

It is completely honorable.

"Shows you can't come up with an honest rebuttal"

You mean like honestly comparing someone who just wants to feel protected to someone that murders, abuses children, uses men, is a serial killer, uses drugs, is a prostitute, and other noteworthy criminal offenses?

[aoirthoir]

Anon thanks. You only have to read up thread to see the disgusting things shf84 is trying to say about women (and men) that want to be protected or want to protect another. I'm not posting to convince him because he's decided he doesn't want to deal with reality. Rather I post to remind people that not everyone fits into his (or the ops) classist, ableist view of the world.

If we want to encourage women to learn self defense calling them immoral and pathetic won't do the trick.

[shf84]

You keep talking about mutual protection which is a given I never said it was immoral in the slightest. I'm talking about what the OP said which is women who think they need a man to protect them. These women don't want mutual protection they want to be protected and will choose their lover based on that rather than on love . That's what I have said over and over and over and you have tried to twist into something entirely different over and over. That makes you a liar .

[shf84]

Also if someone does something disgusting and I say "that's disgusting" that's what it means not this crap of saying the person is disgusting I really don't' care what you think it is that's what I think it is and your no better than me. Actually the fact that you think these people need coddling and sweet talking shows you have no real respect for their decision making process, you think their screwed up and need mothering.

[Anonymous]

I think it is great you have these skills. I am physically fit but small and I don't know how to fight. Reality is though, that not many guys I know are fighters either. They would be likely to just cause another guy to not want to bother with the two of us or they probably could restrain someone but I don't realistically see them as protection.

So, I don't see it as two extremes. I don't need a man to protect me. I live alone and I travel and go out alone as well. I use other strategies to stay safe rather than be forced to rely on my modest fighting ability. I wouldn't call someone pathetic just because they are not good at fighting.

[Anonymous]

I agree. You are so right. Everyone should know how to protect themselves, man or woman. Nobody should rely on anyone else to protect them. I can take care of my girl but, I think it's good that she can protect herself if it came down to it. And obviously I'm not always going to be around to protect her 24/7 so, it would be unrealistic for her to depend on my protection at all times although, I wish I could.

If girls would like to be considered equal to guys then, they need to show them that the men are not dominant over them.

[aoirthoir]

Liked for being one of the best comments on the thread, less emotion, more fact.

[Opinion Owner]

Thank you. I am speaking of a matter of fact.

[aoirthoir]

I agree you are. That's why I liked your comment. A lot of the responses on each side, are emotional and shaming, particularly of women, or weak men. Your's was a reasoned response. It would be nice if others were less emotion and more fact. Hope that clarifies.

[timberwraith]

Statistics* show that women are far more likely to be raped by a man they know, rather than a stranger. So, how exactly does having men in one's life serve as a protection against assault? I'm not advocating tossing men out of one's life and I'm not saying this to put men down. I'm simply pointing out the fallacy in the logic behind the notion that women need men around for their protection. The prospect of having men in one's life is a neutral proposition as far as safety goes. You might be endangered by a man in your life or you might not. Having a guy around provides no guarantees.

*reference: link

[blacktwistedsoul]

Exactly

[hisangel]

I assure you that if you think that way it's because you have never lived in a place where you feared for your life and having a man with you kept problems from arising. I know it's fun to theorize about these things but it's not a joke or a theory. There are places in this world where not having a man around is an invitation for violence against you.

[shf84]

Places where men are running things and women don't do any thing about it.

[colegrl]

I totally agree. The man that caused me the most physical, sexual and emotional harm in my life was my biological father. That happens way more often than a stranger in an alleyway...which p*sses me off to no end. No matter what I did, I was not going to be protected from him.

[shf84]

My father was that way to, good old family values I don't have children to this day a lot of it is not wanting to relive what I dealt with in child hood. This stuff makes me sick to no end. These men get involved with a woman and think she's some kid of servant it's all about him who the hell ARE these people that think like this? How can someone take an obviously criminal mindset and call that normal?

[aoirthoir]

The answerer is mostly right. Most violence comes from two places. The "drug war" or someone we know. That doesn't change hisangel's experiencing of stranger violence and there's no reason we need to dismiss her. That said, who protects us from those in our very own home?

[soldat]

I dunno, women have too much self confidence in what they can do. Men can tolerate a lot of pain, at least I can, a couple of bunches and kicks isn't going to bring a guy down. You might think you're all that but if you get in a real jam a couple of well placed btich slaps will show you your place.

[stalinhornsby]

LOL ; I'll answer you. I think women like to lead their men in a relationship that they have developed. And, once you are together it is nature's course of action for the dude to step up when things get out of control.

[shf84]

This is just sick. Some big dude could make you his prison bitch to so what?

[blacktwistedsoul]

Wow all I can say is I as a person can handle a lot of pain more than many of my male friends and a well placed punch can bring even you down and francly being slapped would make me fight harder against my attacer looking for opportune places to hit to get away.

i love how most of the guys answering this question think in no matter what situation involving an attack a girl is helpless

[hisangel]

I agree with soldat. Most women have never been in a fight and have no idea how debilitating a punch to the face or stomach can be. I have seen one of the toughest chicks I know get beat by a guy. It wasn't' a fight, she was beat because there was no way she could fight back. When you actually see a man and woman fight, I mean really go at it, the leave of strength the man has is astonishing compared to the woman. It is actually sickening to see how much stronger an average guy is then you.

[shf84]

I've seen video of two big cops trying to take down a fat woman , she thew them around like rag dolls. I have seen footage of another big muscular cop trying to arrest a slightly stocky woman and he could barely handle her. Most guys couldn't they would end up in the hospital. Now if your talking some guy who's built like Mr T not to many men are going to handle a guy like that either.

[hisangel]

Shf84, I said most women have never been in a fight, what you mentioned was not a fight. I'm talking taking a guys punch to the face full on several times. The average woman CANNOT, no matter how much you hope she can, she cannot take a hit like that. A lot of guys can't either. But women tend to walk around acting like they can take a hit have no idea what it feels like.

[shf84]

Women don't walk around thinking that where on earth do you get this stuff? Every thing your saying about women is true of a lot of men to yet you keep up with this stuff about how weak and flimsy women are. Bottom line, men are NOT your protectors it's NOT our job to look after you like we would a child. You have to deal with it like any other adult.

[soldat]

I love how some people try to make up sh*t that have barely any tangential relevance to the subject at hand just so they can have any semblance to intellect. No it's not a man's job to protect a woman, but it's common decency to protect those who are weaker than us, or is that a trait, besides intelligence, that you lack as well?

[aoirthoir]

Shf84, So a woman that DOES WANT or feels she NEEDS protection, is a "child". Your language is entirely dismissive of those women and nothing short of misogyny.

hisangel, I agree with you on many levels, but I have seen my mom take a hit that would knock me out. Whether we're men or women, there's always someone bigger.

"No it's not a man's job to protect a woman, but it's common decency to protect those who are weaker than us" THIS. Good point.

[shf84]

Having a lover is about loving them not hiding behind them.

[aoirthoir]

First, protecting each other is NOT hiding behind someone. You know it, I know it. But it makes a conveniently dismissive trope, so you'll use it over and over again.

Next, it's a LONG step to believe that the ONLY reason one wants a lover is for protection. If that IS the reason though and they both are satisfied, its none of our business that they are together. Chances are though, there are MANY reasons a couple is together. Protecting each other is NOT an abomination as you make it out.

[shf84]

Protecting each other is a given she's talking about gender roles men as protectors.

[aoirthoir]

"Protecting each other is a given she's talking about gender roles men as protectors"

And those women who CHOOSE to have men as their protectors, or who HAVE to choose it for a variety of reasons, SHOULD NOT be SHAMED for their choice.

As we have said though, MOST of the time when it comes to protection, we're all mutually protecting each other in a relationship.

[shf84]

Those women who choose men as their protectors are following a harmful gender role love isn't about protection prostitution is just like a "bitch" in prison.

[aoirthoir]

"hose women who choose men as their protectors are following a harmful gender role"

No they are not. You can deny but the reality that there are a number of women, like there are a number of men, that are either unable, or have great difficulty protecting themselves. Having a lover, that is willing to protect them is not a harmful gender role.

What IS a harmful gender role is SHAMING WOMEN for their PERSONAL DECISIONS which hurt NO ONE. For instance, calling them, or their decisions pathetic.

[aoirthoir]

" love isn't about protection prostitution is just like a "bitch" in prison"

Love is about whatever the persons that are in love say it is about.

shf84's women shame checklist. Women who choose something different than shf84 decides are or are like:

1.Pathetic

2.Burglers

3.Murderers

4.Child Abusers

5.Users of men

6.Serial Killers

7.F'ed Up

8.Bitch

And he thinks that he is FIGHTING gender roles...

Rather you are deluding yourself. Women don't need "allies" of your sort.

[shf84]

No one needs allies who can't tell right from wrong and concentrate on accusations rather than facts that's for sure and that would be you. Love is about love it is what it is. Any one who tries to bend reality to suit there views is walking away from it.

[aoirthoir]

"can't tell right from wrong and concentrate on accusations rather than facts"

From the start you've used highly inflamatory language, insulting women, their choices, conflating them with murders, serial killers, child abusers and others. That's not dealing in facts. You also reject the RIGHT that women should live with PERSONAL AUTONOMY.

"Any one who tries to bend reality to suit there views is walking away from it. "

Too bad you cannot see how what your saying actually applies to you.

[shf84]

You have used highly inflammatory language from the start making accusation after accusation of prejudice then actually tried to defend immoral behavior as being as helpful and positive as right behavior any thing does not go there are right ways and wrong ways to go about things.

[soldat]

Mods please lock this so the idiot above me can't post anymore of his bs.

[aoirthoir]

Sordat, I'll not reply on here so we don't bother you any more. I am sure shf84 will respect your wish too.

[shf84]

If the hippie leaves there is no more reason for me to post here but it's NOT out of respect for you.

you should have been proactive and just blocked me instead of crying like a baby about it.

[soldat]

Your parents should've been proactive and blocked you before insemination.

[Anonymous]

I used to protect myself because I played rugby and hockey for school and rep... but when my own boyfriend started beating me, and hurting me I lost that sence of self saviour... I no longer felt like I could protect myself because even someone that I felt was someone I loved and trusted could hurt me it really just left me baffled and confused... but its been 4 years since then and I am getting more "ballzy" starting to get back to my old self but no... I've never thought I needed a man... because sometimes its "that man" who ends up hurting you.

[Cartiphilus]

I hope you recover from that trauma and betrayal. A guy who attacks a girl is nothing more than a coward. Don't allow his, your ex-boyfriend's, cowardice to affect your self-confidence and belief that you can defend yourself or stop you from living your life without fear and happiness.

[Opinion Owner]

That's why I love my new man so much, ya we fight what couples don't honestly? But he still makes me feel like a princess and he would probably tear down anyone who hurt me.. infact h's on several occasions tried to hurt both my ex's for what they did to me.. but I'm a bigger person... I told him ignore it all that matters is him and me not the past.

[Anonymous]

You're right, it's really pathetic, shows how insecure most of women are. It's business too as to get the best male, the best male means the tallest and the strongest she can get, like she is buying a protection tool for a long term. When women walk up to a stranger, how on earth they know what his values or personality is like? they approach cause of his appearance, so they can brag about it later on if they could get him. And yes, this is life, and most women are that greedy, shallow and bad, you're a rarity.

I only hope that you'll keep it up even when you get older.

[Anonymous]

I've been protected by guys (my daddy, my brothers, etc) my entire life but they're just looking out for me because they care. I can protect myself and it drives me crazy that they think I can't! My gut friend was talking about how he just got a gun license and said "now I can protect you!" I sure hope he was joking but again it shows he cares. I was taught to protect myself at an early age which in itself is kinda protecting me. My daddy took me to a gun range and we go hunting alot. I probably know how to shot the gun better than my friend. I don't need protecting but at the same time I want them to care enough to want to protect me. Does that make sense? Sorry I rambled.

[Lockjawx27]

Because women are naturally weaker than men...so obviously they are more vulnerable and need protection from predators. That's how it has worked since the caveman.

Your in shape and carry pepper-spray? Great, but the majority of women can't defend themselves (and they would rather a man do it anyway)

[colegrl]

Jeez, I love how you assume all women are exactly the same. What about lesbians, gender-queer women or women who do not want to rely on men? Do they not exist in your small, sad, little world?

[aoirthoir]

Lockjawz27, some women are naturally weaker than some men, and some men are naturally weaker than some women. Though, on the high end, the strongest men are thus far, stronger than the strongest women. And I hate to break it to you but pepper spray, yeah it's a great equalizer. It can bring all but the most rare of men, to their knees.

Colegrl he made no heteronormative statement. He was merely speaking on the biological differences between the sexes (not the genders).

[colegrl]

I was speaking to that last clause. "the majority of women can't defend themselves (and they would rather a man do it anyway)" That is extremely hetero normative.

[shf84]

It's a lie any way women don't need a man to protect them and if a lot of women think they do it's because of malenculturation.

[aoirthoir]

Colegrl, even that last bit isn't heteronormative. It's bio-normative. As someone who has seen ALL the women in his family defend against men much larger than themselves, I call bunk on the claim. But that doesn't make the claim het-normative.

shf84, actually I would say it is femaleculturnation. The vast majority of men I know are well aware of a womb man's ability to defend zeself. When I hear otherwise, the majority of the time it is womb men, not waep men.

[shf84]

Womb man waep men? Now I'm leaning to the nut case hypothesis even more. Maybe you were drunk or jacked up on something when you wrote this but I haven't even seen to many drunks write things like that. "zeself" could be a typo maybe an attempt to be colorful the others beginning to look a lot like shrooms , weed or mental likely the last one.

[aoirthoir]

"Womb man waep men?"

Google is your friend.

" "zeself"... beginning to look a lot like shrooms , weed or mental likely the last one. "

Again time to get your 101 on. Can anyone tell me why so often when people PURPORT to repudiate sexism, they not only use sexist language to do so, but also ableist, and other unacceptable isms?

Once again I point out the reason to avoid TYPICALLY SEXIST DEMEANING LANGUAGE because it doesn't stop there. You can't defend ONE ism by using ist language.

[shf84]

Think I'll pass on your cool aid it smells funny.

[aoirthoir]

By which you mean pass on ceasing to dehumanize women who don't meet your standards.

[shf84]

Which means I'll pass on giving up thinking for my self.

[aoirthoir]

But you won't pass on thinking for others or insisting that they NOT think for themselves. Unless of course the "thinking for THEMSELVES" involves a woman making the decision YOU deem acceptable.

[shf84]

Has nothing to with what I deem acceptable it has to do with simple facts. Picking a lover because they can protect you is wrong you can't change reality to suit what you want. If you make a mistake and someone points it out that has nothing to do with them trying to control you.

[aoirthoir]

"has to do with simple facts. Picking a lover because they can protect you is wrong"

Another straw man. It's NOT fact at all. The ONLY ONE on this entire thread that claimed this is YOU. You were called on your insulting language, and since it has no basis, you have to keep making things up.

" you can't change reality to suit what you want."

Which is exactly what you are trying to do with your strawmen. You keep trying to argue against something NONE of us argued.

[aoirthoir]

"nothing to do with [shf84] trying to control you"

This from the man who said:

"Oh but my ideas do get a say in how people live, how do you think politicians get elected to office"

Then we have your insulting of women who don't meet your standards and your conflating their PERSONAL AUTONOMY with crimes like murder, serial killers and child abuse. Your language has been the language of control from your first post. So you can CLAIM you aren't trying to be controlling all you want.

[shf84]

I already explained what I was trying to do with those comparisons I was trying to explain simple ethical mechanics and instead of trying to make a counterpoint you resort to faux shock and outrage and make more accusations in an attempt to discredit , this really has nothing to do with making a point it has to do with smoke and mirrors. You accuse me of control but you insist others use your moral framework.

[aoirthoir]

"I already explained what I was trying to do with those comparisons I was trying to explain simple ethical mechanics"

An ethical mechanic that is wholly unrelated to the issue at hand. But that won't stop you from using an extreme, UNRELATED issue when your poinst are not proven.

"and instead of trying to make a counterpoint you resort to faux shock and outrage"

I'm neither shocked nor outraged. Your first post demonstrated the kind of person you are, and I expect nothing more from you.

[aoirthoir]

"and make more accusations in an attempt to discredit"

You accuse yourself, I don't need to do that. You also discredit yourself. All I have to do is keep reminding readers of the absurdity of your claims and the nastiness of your pejoratives.

"You accuse me of control but you insist others use your moral framework."

No. I insist that everyone's bodily autonomy be respected. That means we don't interfere with individuals personal decisions, including how they mate. (Consent, no harm).

[shf84]

And I don't agree with you if you call this pointing out absurdity in what I say your doing a mighty sh*tty job every thing you have wrote on her is about as absurd as it gets. I don't care about the bodily autonomy of people who don't behave ethically nor about aiding them in continuing their behavior. That's just stupid and it's wrong.

[aoirthoir]

"I don't care about the bodily autonomy of people who don't behave ethically nor about aiding them in continuing their behavior."

No, you don't care about the bodily autonomy of people with whom you disagree. You've demonstrated that if you disagree with someone you are more than willing to make up anything you want about them, no matter how vitriolic your claim is. You have no grounding in your position so you have to keep resorting to the false "but it's immoral!" rant.

[shf84]

And why do you suppose I keep saying it is immoral? Guess what, it is.

[SmiffyJay]

Well believe it or not, women are evolutionarily programmed to want a guy to protect them. So it is in women's brains from birth to judge a man by his survival value. One of the main things that a man's survival value is judged on is his strength. Not necessarily physical strength, but the skills that he has that will help him to take care of the people he cares about. This includes wit, assertiveness and decisiveness. But it can be physical strength.

[LegendDary]

it's a biological thing. women are hardwired to feel safer with a man they trust. men are the other way around, they feel better with a woman they need to protect, they feel more protective and they feel obligated. not saying you NEED us men, but in a lot of cases that is true, and not saying we should be protective, just saying I do REALLY feel obligated to protect the girl I'm with. even if I know I'd loose I'd still try. it's biological, that's all there is to it.

[MrAnon]

I don't think it's pathetic at all really, it's not to do with protecting you there and then, it's about protecting you long-term for the rest of your life. It's not about being your bodyguard either, it's about giving you the security that there is something there to look after you for the rest of your life, not just in terms of defense but financially and emotionally, etc.

[shf84]

What kind of a woman would want that? Who would want a woman like that for that matter. One who had no ambition beyond having some man protect her and support her. That is pathetic, disgusting in fact.

[MrAnon]

It's natural instinct, check out some social psychology.

[aoirthoir]

No it is not pathetic shf84. Couples give EACH OTHER security. As I have said throughout YOU don't get to define the relationships of OTHERS. If YOU don't want someone to protect you, that's just fine FOR YOU. But this ableist language, calling other women PATHETIC because they want something other than you IS NOTHING SHORT OF MISOGYNY.

Two (or more) lovers (or friends or family) wanting to comfort each other and be each others security is beautiful NOT disgusting. Your language is judgemental

[shf84]

Abilist language ha ha where do you get this sh*t any way? I don't get to? Too bad for you it's up to me how I think and not you, guess it's out of your hands.

Now if a person actually WAS disabled like couldn't walk or see etc. that would be different. But this woman isn't, she just thinks it's ok for women to hide behind men. Why you can't see that I have not idea. And it IS pathetic when someone thinks they can't because of their sex or accepts that kind of garbage.

[aoirthoir]

Shf84, you need to get your 101 on. Do a bit of study about ableism then come back.

And sorry but NO you DONT get to demean women because of life choices they make that YOU disagree with. Each time you TRY someone else will stand up and refute your misogyny. Finally you COMPLETELY misrepresented what MrAnon said. NOTHING was said about "hiding behind men". Making up something won't make you right.

[MrAnon]

Its not about hiding behind men or relying on them totally, as already mentioned in this conversation, you BOTH offer each other security, it's a two-way thing.

[katrinasanchez]

Maybe it's natural instinct but a lot of women don't feel that instinct anymore.

[caramelapple34]

It depends on the extent of what the girls want their man to do. I work out on a regular basis and I am 6 feet tall and very strong, but I want my guy to be able to protect me 'IF NEED BE'. I can take care of myself just fine, but lets just say that a guy twice my size tries to start something with me... I would want to feel reassured that I don't have to worry because my guy would take care of it for me. Its not about your guy being your bodyguard per say, it's about knowing that if your guy is with you that he doesn't want you to try to take on this big guy by yourself because he can do it for you. Why fight a guy twice your size if you don't have too?

[aoirthoir]

For me it's knowing that we both would protect each other, and protection comes in different forms. Desiring protection from one's mate does not make us any less.

[shf84]

Your lover is not your body guard. If you are romantically involved with someone for a good or service that's prostitution.

[aoirthoir]

"Your lover is not your body guard."

You don't get to determine what my lover is or is not, that's for us, and ONLY US to decide.

"If you are romantically involved with someone for a good or service that's prostitution"

You don't get to define what we call our relationship.

Relationships come in an infinite number of varieties. Thefting the bodily autonomy of another might make you feel good, but frankly, how others live is none of our business.

[shf84]

You don't get to do what every you want and call it what you want if it's something besides what your calling it. You get involved with a person for protection or food or a pack of cigarettes that's prostitution. That's what the word means you can call it what every you want but you can't change what it IS. So really it's not me that's defining it, it's me observing it.

And how others live IS our business, some people choose to live in street gangs or start hate groups that affects us.

[shf84]

Suppose you take a crap on a plate and call it mashed potatoes. Someone comes along and says ewwww why are you eating sh*t?

You gasp and stair at them in disbelief! You don't get to decide what I call food! Your "thefting" my bodily autonomy! How dare you! The person shakes their head and walks off. So are you eating sh*t or mashed potatoes?

[aoirthoir]

"You don't get to do what every you want and call it what you want if it's something besides what your calling it."

I get to call my relatioinships ANYTHING I and my lovers agree to. YOU have NO say in it.

" You get involved with a person for protection or food or a pack of cigarettes that's prostitution."

NO it is not. People get involved with each other for all sorts of reasons. By your misdefinition ALL relationships are prostitution.

"it's me observing it."

Its you trying to control.

[aoirthoir]

"And how others live IS our business, some people choose to live in street gangs or start hate groups that affects us."

Excuse me? ME being in a relationship with another is compared to street gangs and hate groups? MY decisions to WHY I am in a relationship with another affects you on THAT level? I call BUNK.

In your vigorous attempt to marginalize "pathetic" women you grasp at ANY straw and twist ANY truth. The BEAUTY of MY relationships is NOT akin to hate groups or gangs.

[aoirthoir]

"Suppose you take a crap on a plate and call it mashed potatoes"

Let me get this correct. My bodily autonomy, my decisions, WHICH HURT NO ONE, the decisions myself and my lovers make in HOW we love each other and why, WHICH HURT NO ONE, are to be compared by you to excrement? You are so incensed that SOME women desire protection, SO OPPOSED to them MAKING their OWN decisions, that you are willing to call their relationships EXCREMENT?

And you call THEM pathetic?

[shf84]

You get involved with someone for reasons of commerce instead of reasons of love that's prostitution. What about that don't you get? You sell your ass on a corner and "get involved" with a trick I'm supposed to say that's the same as a couple who cares deeply for each other? How can you possibly believe things like this?

[aoirthoir]

"as opposed to someone who cares deeply..."

You're playing the same old tropes. YOU don't get to decide WHY people care for each other. NO ONE said ANYTHING about people on corners BUT YOU. Calling OTHERS relationships, which you know NOTHING about excrement, does NOT extricate you from your false dichotomy. Either their in a relationship for the reasons YOU decide, or its a loveless prostitution arrangement. WRONG.

[shf84]

What you don't seem to get is this is not about me deciding anything. This is about me making an observation based on the mechanics of human psychology. The way things work. You think I really say what I say because I got it in my head somehow to condemn someone just out of spite or for the fun of it ? I'm reacting to actual circumstances.

[aoirthoir]

"You think I really say what I say because I got it in my head somehow to condemn someone just out of spite or for the fun of it ?"

I don't care why you CONDEMENED a woman. You can disagree with them without disenfranchising them. I grew up understanding these mechanics and a woman's need to protect herself and SAW it in ACTION. That doesn't give me the right to say nasty things to a woman who had a different life experience.

[shf84]

The mistake your making is to think I don't know any thing about those relationships. They are what they are and it's not rocket science to understand that.

[aoirthoir]

I made no such mistake. See, I am judging you not on what I think you do or do not think or understand. I am answering per your very own words. You have said that women who do certain things are pathetic. That doesn't exactly make you an advocate for women there bub.

[shf84]

You dont' know the half or it , I think women that are serial killers and child abusers are pathetic to

hippy boy

[aoirthoir]

Everyone notice how shf84 keeps trying to compare an INNOCENT woman CHOOSING to have someone defend her, to a woman that commits a crime like buglary, and now SERIAL KILLERS and CHILD ABUSERS. People will typically conflate an act that is NOT immoral, illegal or violent with one that is (as shf84 is doing) to bolster their incredibly weak arguments.

Compare innocent women to MURDEROUS women is ABSOLUTELY NOT about eliminating gender roles. Rather it is about MAINTAINING them. Good job shf84.

[shf84]

Same old crap If I say I want to eliminate gender roles that's what I mean I don't really care about some convoluted take on it that is only germane to your view of the world It's not my belief and I don't care.

[aoirthoir]

"Same old crap If I say I want to eliminate gender roles that's what I mean"

Sure you SAY you want to eliminate gender roles. But you RE-ENFORCE the gender role that women only get to decide what A MAN (you) decides, or her decisions are pathetic, murderous, child abusive and other insulting false claims.

"It's not my belief and I don't care"

Right, that's the problem. It's not your belief that women should DECIDE for THEMSELVES what they want and will do. Not exactly pro-woman there bub.

[shf84]

Again me not agreeing with something someone does has nothing to do with me condemning the group they belong to. Your more interested in pushing your every thing goes view of life than in facts.

[aoirthoir]

"Again me not agreeing with something someone does has nothing to do with me condemning the group they belong to"

Other than the fact that you did condemn them.

"Your more interested in pushing your every thing goes view of life than in facts"

Another straw man. I've said exactly the OPPOSITE of this. Believing that grown adult women, can make adult CONSENTING decisions when they harm no one, is not an "EVERYTHING goes" view.

But you won't let a little thing like THE FACTS get in your way.

[shf84]

A grown woman who thinks she needs to rely on a man for protection is a woman who has severely limited her self and legitimized who she is.

[aoirthoir]

"A grown woman who thinks she needs to rely on a man for protection is a woman who has severely limited her self"

I agree she has limited herself. I won't limit her further by calling her, or her decisions pathetic, immoral, using of men, or make ridiculous comparisons to violent behavior, since her choice is only limiting, NOT violent. You might try that for yourself.

It should be noted that not ALL persons have the privilege to protect themselves. For instance a quadrapalegic.

[shf84]

If someone chooses to do something wrong and gets in others face about it the way these women do you bet I will condemn what they are doing. The quadriplegic statement is just silly evey one knows someone like that would have a hard time defending them self.

[aoirthoir]

"If someone chooses to do something wrong"

It's not wrong.

"and gets in others face about it the way these women do"

No one got in your face about it. You're lying again.

"you bet I will condemn what they are doing."

No you will make up things and then condemn that.

" The quadriplegic statement is just silly evey one knows someone like that would have a hard time defending them self."

Actually it demonstrates that your claim of immorality is just a lie and ableist.

[shf84]

You should be selling some plastic potato peeler on an infomercial if you think I'll buy that cheep crap. Spin spin spin

[Anonymous]

I recommend you to take the example of sports: Any sport, that is separated by sexes. Look, men play better tennis, men play better footbal, better soccer, better boxing, run faster, swim faster, etc etc etc. I'm talking about professionals. Both men and women.

Now, do you really think you could protect yourself from a mike tyson, even if you felt like you're the strongest woman ever? In doubt? Watch some of his clips on youtube, and believe me: there are lots of myke tysons out there, and some are stronger and even faster.

But hey, if you don't need a man, and don't want one, I think you shouldn't have one! It's your call. Just don't say women are equally stronger than men, because that is scientifically incorrect.

[Mesonfielde]

Hey, she could have a need for a man, just not for that stupid scenario.

[Dorina]

Wow, your really independent. And I give you props for that :)

I guess sometimes girls just like the feeling of having a man to be there for them no matter what. So if ever there is something she can't handle, he will be there to take care of it. I know I'm like that.

[hope_9]

its not pathetic. Its classy. I know I don't usually NEED a man to protect me but I think its nice to have the option. I'm in shape too and 5'11. So its not like I'm an easy target but c'mon who doesn't like the whole knight in shining armor thing? If you want to rescue yourself go on ahead, props tp u...thats just not my style.

[mmike0]

Are you too good?

[johnny_hustle]

I'm not into the whole girls thinking they are too good for a guy. (not saying you are) Like when a guy is being a gentlemen and opens the door and she reacts saying I am physically able to open the door for myself thank you very much! But a woman who is in shape and can kick ass when need be to protect herself and not needing man to double as her bodyguard is hott as hell! Plus if the girl I am dating knows self defense, I wouldn't mind sparring with her from time to time. ;)

[SportyLove]

Id like to see my friend who is five foot f*uck all and weighs less than 100 lbs defend herself against even the smallest guys in my grade...

Not all girls have the mindset "where is the strong handsom prince to come save my from this mean man?"

Like you I'm also strong and can handle my own in most situations, but sure as hell not all of them. Pepper spray or not.

[shf84]

No one can handle every situation but it's only women who are expected to go crying to their daddy about it and that's wrong.

[aoirthoir]

I must run in different circles, because none of the people I've ever associated expect women to run to daddy about their problems. I only hear that kind of thing from feminists, no one in "teh patriarchy" that I've met has yet to say that. But as I said, I must run in different circles from you.

[shf84]

Haven't you read what these women on here are saying? Look at it it 's right in front of your nose.

[aoirthoir]

Yeah I have read it. That's why I say I must run in DIFFERENT circles than yall. I am not dismissing your experiences. I have simply had the exact opposite experience.

[swizzcris]

i am very extremely strong for a girl and I understand how important it is for us to be able to protect ourselves. but I do want to know that if something happened and I was with a guy ,that he would be able to do something to. what would it look like him balled up in a corner and I'm tryna fight off an attacker that's not fair

[onedeerantler]

i would never put myself in a position where I could get hurt. but I love it when I feel protected by my man. I consider him my strength and that is why he is my other half. not very many girls are as strong as you so that is why some girls like having a man around

[alleycat42]

probably cause you can take all the self defense classes you want, but if you're an average 5"7 135 pound woman and a huge man wants to attack you... he's gonna attack you, and it's going to be very easy. The best way to defend yourself is to be smart, not to try to beat him in a fight which is not likely to happen.

Seriously... I know it's frustrating and all to be considered smaller and weaker, but sometimes you just have to accept the unfair sh*t in life and move on.

[emzy-89]

i personally don't feel as though I need a man to protect me, I've gone 21yrs without one so I think I'm doing pretty well. lol. I think it stems from the childhood fairytales prince charming saving the damzel in distress, they fall in love and live happily ever after thing. lets face it, it would make life a lot simpler. lol. but that's where I thiknk it comes from.

[GIntrovert]

We rely on each other for protection, but the first line of defense is yourself.

You need others, and just because some women think that 1 man is enough to protect them (and not the entire society) doesn't make them pathetic.

[aoirthoir]

Gintrovert, great answer. I agree with you entirely. I rely on others for protection, the very same ones that rely on me for protection. Me and my lovers work together in most things, including protecting each others physical, emotional and mental well being. Thank you especially for saying it doesn't make them pathetic. Calling people pathetic is shaming language and when we call women pathetic it is pure misogyny. So your speaking up against misogyny is well appreciated.

[FernandoS]

I'm a very muscular guy and if I'd hit you, you'll be in the hospital. Men are way stronger than woman and have a body filled with muscles. Girls like the idea of the strong muscular men protecting them, you can take 1000 selfdefence classes, but you have no chance against a muscular strong men. Woman like to be princesses and the man likes to be the prince, the caretaker of the lady.

[Cartiphilus]

I clicked the down arrow on that opinion. Even big guys can be taken down by surprise from behind or when they are not looking by someone of weaker stature than them. If she's had enough training and combat experience even if you grab both her arms watch out for her feet. If you try to hit her, without trying sucker punch her, she'll have a way of defending the punch.

[FernandoS]

You clicked down the arrow probably because your dumb. A girl with defending classes has no chance against a pumped man, hitting him will only tickle him. She won't, she can only run away, because if she comes close, she'll get hit and she'll end up in the hospital. Working out means strength, if she's close enough to just touch, she's screwed.

[katrinasanchez]

Man some of you guys are naive. Do you really think a girl can't put a guy down? I'm in tae kwon do and we always have fights between a girl and a guy. And I can take down a lot of the guys in my class because.. well I'm just have way better technique. It's not just about brute strength.

[FernandoS]

Tomuch strength overpowers those techniques easily. ofcourse there are skinny boys who can be taken down, but with a lot of strength you won't stand a chance with your silly techniques, that's what I'm saying.

[human_condition]

What a bigoted and ignorant response.

[FernandoS]

Hence, the truth.

[MandMandM]

Muscles that matched the development of your ego wouldn't be much use against a bullet though? Seems smarter to me to avoid a fight in preference to any kind of physical contest where someone might end up on hospital food for months.

[carlo]

@ katrinasanchez, so you think you can take down a mean guy because you take TKD classes, lol. Yes, there are CASES where girls will take down guys, but statistically, it will be the other way round. take the average trained guy and the average trained girl, average body for both and average meaness for both, and you tell who you think in average will win, in real life, not in the what if scenarios of dreamland you want to come up with.

[Sa11yU]

believe me ; as someone who knows this stuff (I am the only girl in my martial arts class) it does not matter if the girl knows the right places to knock you down - men have more 'tenderer' zones then women and many basic defense movements are based on the weakness

[Sa11yU]

guys, we may tend to be more connected with our emotions but that makes us strong in a way that most guys can't comprhend, everyone (guys and girls) like to feel special; girls feel special when they know that a man with protect them but at the same time let us be independant and let us grow to be strong women, we will be happier if you do that...

girls can be strong phsically too and every intellegint, confident girl can take down a big brute of a guy at the end of the day, the ones that are confident, strong hearted girl (no matter in size) and knows what their doing in the slightest can kick any dudes ass!

[Reggie1]

Did you ever consider that it might be an easy way of making a guy feel good about himself? It's probably the case that every young girl in existence knows how to kick my backside if she wants to - men have a fairly-obvious weak point that you all know will, if hit, render him powerless.

There is a difference between a woman TELLING me that she needs me to rescue her, and actually needing it. Inform me that I'm wrong and I'll back down.

[factotum]

Bigger yes. Stronger, not so much. In any case you had the element of surprise. But for the why of the situation, I suggest that you spend a few hours researching bonobo and pan troglodyte chimps, and realize that our mating strategies are governed by a part of the brain that is a few million years old.

You are a freak of nature. I suspect that your IQ is also over 120, maybe over 130. Enjoy life and find men who are not put off by strong women and want partnerships not dominant / submissive relationships. Well, unless you want to dominate or submit :-)

[Shortie261]

I agree with you woman shouldn't depend on men to protect them, but I think some women like the idea of a man being there and beig able to protect them. It's great that your eel prepared and that you've done what you've done but not every girl can or wants to do that, I don't know why but it's true. I personally am all for defending myself, I haven't had self defense classes but growing up with my older brother and guy cousins with thief friends has made me stronger than the average girl, but even I gotta say it's nice to have a guy who can protect you, but no I don't want a bodyguard twenty four seven but I gotta say I get where both sides are coming from.