I REALLY need the opinion of Atheists and Christians. (Page 2)
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Well, well, well, guess this is my stop….Seriously this is a popular topic in today’s society. Even more now then in the past. I’m a Christian(Baptist) and was raised in the church as well. I didn’t accept Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior until I was 10/11 years old at a Christian camp. Every night after service they provided snacks, every night. And of course being a kid I snacked away every night, but not this night. I felt complete/full. I wasn’t hungry or thirsty. I was excited/pumped. And I couldn’t sleep, didn’t really want to. It’s was like my eyes were opened and I could see a whole new world. Then I went back home and went to my home church. I asked question, after question after question to my Sunday school teacher and pastor. But they didn’t answer some of my questions straight forward like I wanted, so I started to doubt everything I was taught. But I couldn’t shake the feeling inside. Then someone said to me: “You have all the proof you need even if it’s not the way you want it. The world, do you really think this all just popped into existence? The moon/stars/sun. The trees/grass/oceans/ land. The animals/insects/Mankind. There has to be a Higher Power, don’t you think?” And in that moment I was changed. I’ve grown to realize I will never fully understand God and why He does or why He doesn’t do certain things. That’s not our calling. If it was meant to know then we would know. It’s like your parents, sometimes they tell you to do certain things without giving you the explanation that you seek. Yet you do it and then eventually you realize it was for the best. That’s how it is with God. We are to believe and trust Him. He’s in control so let Him be. We can only do what were created for, and that’s believe.
May God bless you in whatever your decision may be. Please email me anytime, I would love to chat.
It's very unlikely that something you choose to believe with out method and evidence is correct.
There are loads of scientific theories, nearly all have been incorrect and phased out. The ones that are kept are based on likelihood, reasoning, logic and evidence. These ideas are still continuously honed. It is the search for truth.
Religion is apposed to this methodology. Religion is the truth. It is right, no matter what. At least, that's what they say.
The sun revolved around the earth. That was a fact for religion. It was wrong.
A lot of religions contradict each other, making it only possible for one to be right, if any.
A lot of religious text has become "metaphorical", but they believed it as fact before, so is what they believe as "fact" now also metaphorical?
There were beliefs that the earth is less than 10,000 years old.
Many beliefs we *know* are wrong are still held by people.
Religion only works with ignorance and assumption. We don't understand something so suddenly religion is there making assumptions on things. Until we understand it, then they move onto the next thing.
I would stick to atheism if I was you, at least until someone proves there's a god. LMAO
Im an atheist. I always have been, I see religion as one of those things that needs to be really toned down in the world. People take it too far, in NOT specifically meaning extremism or anything (however that is a good example) its because there is no proof for god (as listed in my reasons) and also people use it as an excuse because people have believed in jesus say, for over 2 millenia now. But if these people really look at the world properly and look at science, there is the answers. My reasons:
-There is no scientific proof for god. There never has been.
-If god was real, explain then, all the recent conflicts (Vietnam, The Falklands War, The Gulf War) and the 2 major world wars we have had. Why did they occur?
-I study A-level physics.
-Religion has caused too many problems. One example. The mass genocide committed by the Nazis.
-We live in modern times. Technology and science are advancing at an incredible rate, and there is little place in society for old fashioned views about god because no-one could provide a better answer at the time of that religion being founded.
I've been raised a Christian all my life although probably since last year or so I just started considering myself an atheist lol. Of course this could be because I never went to church on a regular schedule to enforce my religion, but the way I see religion is that it is a system of centralized beliefs people created early on to explain the events that occurred that they were not able to prove/understand. Of course now-a-days most people use science to answer these questions about nature and other things. I just think religion is outdated for the modern human race because of our vast knowledge based on observations and experiments. But there are benefits for being religious too, like the entire church community, which is a great way to meet people that share similar beliefs and point of views.
The only reason I'm an atheist is because I just need logical proof that a higher being exists to be able to believe it. And, according to science, it's practically impossible for a god-like being to exist in reality, but this is just my understanding. This is definitely a big decision for you and completely your choice, it really just depends on which you believe more.
Does science really say that?
How is it impossible (or practically impossible), could you please explain?
And I've heard the same thing said for our universe, lol. xD
That, like, the odds of a universe being capable of supporting life were beyond infinitesimal, because of the dozens and dozens of ratios of different things that need to also be in perfect ratio with each other, and the odds of that all lining up was teeeeeeeeny tiny.
Practically impossible. xD
Yet here we are. o_O
Your questions are rather valid...
No, science (or anything else) can not say that the existence of God is impossible...just as nobody can assert the direct opposite.
This is because the scientific method is only concerned with the pursuit of what is knowable.
Besides that, I am quite familiar with the facts you propose. Otherwise known as the characteristics of the our 'fine tuned' universe.
While, In my opinion,...
(continued...)
...this doesn't prove the existence of the Judeo-Christian God, it does pose an interesting avenue of inquiry.
As such, I would like to refer you to a rather interesting, quite recent article, co-written by Stephen Hawking, which explains what's called 'The Multi-verse Theory'.
While the theory conveyed may not yet be absolute, I does show that the automatic substitution of God in place of an unknown does not even begin to solve this mystery, let alone even recognize its fantastic complexity.
link
happy reading :)
Oh gosh.
I'm sorry. xD
I have a hard time taking Stephen Hawking seriously, even though he's the only literal genius I've ever heard of.
I guess, the things he talks about, and the way he comes up with his theories, are as incomprehensible to me as anything else.
Which makes me think two things;
1.) Dang, I'm stupid. So /that's/ what's really out there.
2.) Dang, he could say whatever he wanted, as long as the words and concepts he used were big enough to confuse us regular folks.
> Dang, he could say whatever he wanted, as long as the words and concepts he used were big enough to confuse us regular folks.
You know, there's always the option of getting an education. What he's saying is not particularly complex. Some of 'us regular folks' understand him just fine.
Hallo again, Thiezz!
Thanks for your input.
Definitely helpful. ;3
I think you should stop viewing the world as one big coincidence that can't fit in perfectly without a creator. This argument holds no ground.
Simply to say: You make the pieces and pile them on, there is a slight chance they will fit. But if you put one piece and the other grows on it adjusting to the surroundings and the bottom there is a 100% chance they will fit. Once all the pieces have grown adjusting to the surroundings someone will come and say. Whoa! What are the chances!
How did the firs piece come to exist?
We have absolutely NO idea! xD
Part 4:
God's side: search Francis Chan just stop and think on youtube
Aethism side: search Richard Dawkins Ben Stein on youtube
Once again, sorry to bombard you, but I love life... I love my faith... I love the purpose I have in my life... And, I do not know how many atheists can say that death has lost its sting. I fear nothing and I live everyday with shear joy. You can tell by these videos that one person has joy and the other person has hate. You can also tell that one person has answers and the other person can not defend their beliefs.
Dude, kudos for the Francis Chan reference!
C: I love Francis Chan.
Christianity makes a lot of sense to me...to make it short and sweet the Christian way of life just feels right to me. All that Jesus taught was good and that's how I want to live my life. It makes much more sense then the idea that we came from nothing, are nothing, and have no purpose. there is no truth or fulfillment in atheism. honestly God can't be proven with science because those who try to prove Him doubt Him and God only reveals Himself to those who truly believe and have faith in Him. He's not just gonna reveal Himself to man. He showed Himself through His Son, created many people to shareHis love with us and that's all He's going to do. Its up to His people to come to know and love Him.
The difference between your pastor and an atheist is that your pastor has too much pride to say "I don't know."
No one knows. Don't confuse pretending to know with truth. This is why I am an apatheist. These questions are irrelevant, time consuming, an ultimately inconsequential to me. I was a dedicated Catholic for 20 years and finally had to painfully admit to myself I don't believe in word one of any of the dogma.
Believe whatever you want and don't stand in my way is all I ask. But don't you DARE pretend that you know something I don't. To say you know something I don't, or that one human or group of humans knows something that the rest don't know, pertaining to the nature of life and the significance of one human versus another as far as innate worth determined by an external deity, is the only wrong answer. The rest are simply unverifiable. Including mine. Including yours.
Haha I tried to explain my views- I didn't know there was a term for it lol- to my dad and he totally didn't get it.
Yeah I was actually a bit imprecise in my answer - an atheist says he knows there's no god. The same thing as saying you know there is. An agnostic says I don't know. But yeah, I'm an apatheist. I don't know/don't care anymore.
Just from reading your responses and understanding your decision to attempt Christianity, you are either going to have a very short career as a Christian or you haven't researched the science behind religions in the slightest.
but instead of writing a lengthy response regarding science (you need to dig your face in a text book not a bible) I will inform you of a little known fact regarding Christianity's hero, Jesus.
He is a character plagiarised from Egyptian mythology who is known as Horus.
Also you should read the Riddle of Epicurus, punch this in on you tube watch?v=UEkJJidVjGU and actually think about it.
and before anyone should ever join a religion, they should ask themselves what they want from it, in most situations the answers don't come from and deity.
you do know that the christian bible is the first to report a dying and rising God, correct all the others came after... like islam, and others
What bprox said is true.
Jesus is the first deity in any religion to triumph over death.
Other gods in older religions were only reborn in relation to the cycle of death and rebirth, which is different from what Jesus did.
Any deities who triumphed over death/ were reborn were created after the time of Jesus Christ.
what relevance does that have when "Jesus" didn't exist? He may very well have been a man, but his entire story is straight plagiarism. Asker, did you even look up my challenges? To be blunt, I don't think you would have the capacity to comprehend the argument and understand the implications of it all. So have fun fearing hell for the rest of your life
The Riddle of Epicurus means nothing to me, unfortunately. It ignores certain aspects of God/what He is said to have created..
As for Horus, I'm still researching him.
xD Silly. I'm not going to Hell. I have nothing to fear.
But I will certainly have fun. o.O
means nothing to me...what he is said to have created? wth? It completely obliterates the possibility of a judeo-christian god.
but I understand now, I was dead on with my last comment
> Jesus is the first deity in any religion to triumph over death.
How about Osiris?
and I quote, "...the god Osiris, the god who died, and who subsequently, because he rose from the dead, became the god of the dead, held his exalted position in the minds of the Egyptians because he was the great prototype and symbol of all dead men. Every man hoped to rise from the dead and to enjoy immortal life, because Osiris rose from the dead and enjoyed immortal life, which he had the power to bestow upon his followers" I am done trying to reason with the daft
Seems you agree with me? :p
more or less, but the asker is a bit dull of with so I think our argument is being completely ignored
The answers to the arguments you made are currently impossible to prove, so you just have to make your own decisions.
Religion can "work" with science, but you can't take every word as fact (which would be stupid anyway given the time period and translation). Besides it's not the point of science to interact with religion, we use the scientific method to record and learn about our universe and its nature. Therefore anything that cannot be measured ( e.g. spirits/gods) is "ignored" by science.
Just enjoy the fact that you're getting the chance to make the decision when most are told what to believe at an early age.
I'm agnostic (by the oxford dictionary definition), but I'm an atheist for all intents and purposes. If you want to ask me anything go ahead.
Does science really say that?
How is it impossible (or practically impossible), could you please explain?
And I've heard the same thing said for our universe, lol. xD
That, like, the odds of a universe being capable of supporting life were beyond infinitesimal, because of the dozens and dozens of ratios of different things that need to also be in perfect ratio with each other, and the odds of that all lining up was teeeeeeeeny tiny.
Practically impossible. xD
Yet here we are. o_O
Oops! Sorry, Xailon, I replied to your comment on accident. XD
Anyways!
I agree that things like that are impossible to prove, but if enough evidence is given for something, at some point it /does/ become possible to come to conclusions that are more likely than not accurate. xD
Which way it goes depends on the evidence.
"which way it goes depends on the evidence." Bravo! :)
However, what Xailon is trying to say is that science has no interest is the scientific pursuit of what can not be scientifically pursued - that being, the existence of any God - but I wouldn't say it is ignored...
It's just that, what we already know about the origin and nature of the universe works without the assumption of god - therefore, it's maintained that it would be unwise for one to use god to explain what we don't know about it.
First off, I'm born and raised Agnostic. lol, but I personally find a lot of the bible BS. I favor science over religion/faith.
There are several arguments you can make about the bible, but its impossible to find the real truth. So I think you should believe what you want to believe. You should watch a documentary called Religulous with Bill Mahr. He interviews Presidents of different churches and asks them a series of questions like the ones you have, its interesting to hear their answers and how they respond.
Religulous? Okie pokie. c:
Thanks for the suggestion!
But do you think you could elaborate on your first point, or give me examples of what parts of the Bible you think are displeasing? Pretty please? =)
And apparently, religion and science aren't mutually exclusive. There are a lot of Christian scientists who have contributed to society, and the bible makes mention of creatures that many people speculate to be dinosaurs. xD
yea, watch the trailer of it on you tube.
I took a bible studies class and my professor argued that god may not know the future. Remeber when god asked ... I think it was abraham? to sacrafice his son on a mountain to prove his obedience to god... then at the end god said "now I know", so it could raise the question if he knows the future or not.
ya, there's a few beasts mentioned in the bible. Wasn't it Moses who saw a 5 headed beast in the sky? anyways, the bible lacks a lot of detail.
I don't remember anything. xD
I'm not well versed in the bible.
And that's a pretty good point. =)
That could mean that God doesn't know the future.
It could also be a test.
The way things were explained to me by a friend of mine, "God is aware of all of us on an intimate level, so he basically knows what we are and are not capable of."
So he might have known that Abraham was /capable/ of obeying him, but didn't know if he would or not. maybe he wanted to make it clear to Abraham.
I dunno. xD
Very good question. I am Christian and the whole point of Christianity is WHAT IS TRUTH! Christianity is fully logical, rational and objective. My parents are agnostic and many of my family are atheist and get themselves in all kinds of contradictory traps when trying to disprove God etc.
i am glad you are looking deep and asking the right questions. The answers are there but we do not know everything ...not YET anyway.
please check out my questions and answers as they all revolve around your view of what Christianity is and why Atheism is so illogical when many atheists seem to think Christianity is illogical and delusional.
ask me any questions via message or on here if you like...its my job to be able to give an answer for why I am a Christian :-)
While, as an atheist, I would have to concede that we obviously have our differences with regard to the level of objective truth that can be found in Christian faith, I do wonder how anyone, religious or not, could justifiable say atheism is illogical?
If you have the time, my only advice to you would be to read my answer (the one below yours) - so at least you may fully understand the principles of atheistic thinking - then I would be happy to iron out any problems you may have.
Cheers :-)
Hello I have read your post a few times and each time the fallacious outlook hits me immediately. First your flaw that Christianity is all about faith devoid of any facts or indeed reason let alone logic are almost beyond insulting and ignorant. Asserting that atheism has no dogmas or faith is also rather laughable sir especially when you bring up the once again flawed 'Santa Claus or Spaghetti Monster' argumentation. I sincerely hope your camouflaged dogmas are not based on Mr Dawkins.
another thing I would comment on is the fact that stating that Atheists 'dont know some things and admit it' & that there is no evidence for God is such demonstrably circular.We have all the evidence we would ever need but still it is not good enough for some would be much more honest.i know arguing from a negative and from silence is hard but that's the stance you choose to take.lets not forget that 'new atheism' is also theologically,philosophically and scientifically inept on many levels.
i am fully aware that trying to show or prove anything to a skeptic is nigh on impossible and most if not all atheists and anti theists I have met and debated are nowhere near as open minded, humble and well read as they try and make out to be. I am not here to insult you Sir but to hold up a mirror to your outlook as according to the atheists it is Christians that are delusional...that my friend is the biggest hypocrisy of all. put that in your pipe & have a good smoke then get back to me.
Please, list ONE dogma of atheism. Atheism is not a positive belief in the absence of a deity, merely the pushing of Occam's Razor to its logical conclusion. Atheism is a misnomer in that we don't single out "God," theists do. We're atheists in the same sense that we're agoblinists, a-unicornists, afairyists... Although texts exists that talks about those things, there's no empirical external evidence for their existence, so there's no reason to assume that they exist.
I was taking your question seriously until like most atheists do you went down the 'Dawkins' line of ignorant argumentation & starting talking about fairies & unicorns etc.how insulting..oh well.i take it you were being sarcastic when mentioning occams razor either that or you do not know what is is.Occams razor points smack bag dead on at God.simplest explanation..Some Being had to have made us etc.please explain otherwise.as for dogmas..not allowing any divine foot in the door is a good start.
You must not think really "deep" at all, thousands of atheists every year reach similar conclusions. Now to Occam's razor: it must be applied when a theory makes sense. "God" as an answer is simple indeed. But simplicity per se is not truth. Where do babies come from? Storks or ovum fertilization? The former is simple, but hardly true. So it is with "God" vs. science. Occam's razor is useful when you ask "evolution or God + evolution?" "God" is unnecessary, since evolution can stand on its own.
what absolute ridicule you have just stated. you proved my point fantastically thank you.you seem to think that atheistic dawkinsian evolution is infallible and indeed truth.it is not! you obviously do not understand occams razor nor science if you are talking about stalks or fertilized eggs.id recommend understanding logic and reason before debating further.God is necessary for everything we have to be including any kind of evolution & science.think deeply on that as I do all the time.
You are beyond the help of even logic itself... I suppose there's no harm in being deluded if it makes you happier. Good luck.
Christianity is neither a delusion nor opiate that many atheists would like it to be.
LOL at deepthinker still using the word fallacious, still thinking god is different from fairies and still saying people don't understand without explaining his point. Poor guy.
dont feel sorry for me please. just keep searching and studying what we have been talking about. :-)
I'm don't believe in any religion because I find them all unbelievable. There's no evidence to support any of the miraculous claims of Christianity. And no, the Bible is not evidence of the Christian story any more than the Harry Potter novels are evidence for magic. Religious faith requires accepting assertions without evidence. No thanks.
Do I "know" there's no God? Of course not. No one can answer that question. What do I know? That prayer doesn't work any better than not praying. There's no evidence that any God cares at all about humanity. Things just make a lot more sense without God. You never have to ask "Why does God?"
the most important thing is to have a relationship with God...not with the church, there's a difference allright?
And I was born in a family that belived in God, however I didn't really pay much attention to him untill I was older, when I went on mission trips and saw how people's lives were changed after they Accepted God into their lives. There was no hope in those people before they met Christ, now they had hope...you can see it in their eyes. I've heard of personal testimonies from people, testimonies about how their lives were completely changed when God stepped into their lives. All this is evidence that God exists.
an almighty christian god does probably not exist You can't possibly scientifically explain or think of how someone could be able to do everything. It really makes no sense if you think about it.
And if god was almighty and good, then he would have made the world a better place. But he does not, and therefore he's either good but not almighty or he's almighty but evil.
People do neither have souls. We do now know that conscioussness and personality comes from our brains, not soul. Brain stops functioning after death and tehrefore there is no afterlife.
Don't do it. Organized religion has cause so many people to stop thinking for themselves. And Christianity, especially Catholicism, has so many lies at the core of their beliefs.
Jesus? Stolen from other cultures.
Christmas? Stolen from other cultures.
Easter? Stolen from other cultures.
Seeing a pattern here? A lot of Christian beliefs were worked in along the way (mostly during the crusades) to get the pagans and other non-Christians to convert. Why would you want to follow a bunch of lies?
I'm all for being spiritual and believing in a higher power if that's how you feel. But I don't think organized religion is the way to go. Why can't you just believe in whatever you think is out there and strive to be a good person and do good because it feels right? Not because some man in the sky will send you to Hell if you don't...
Lol, I didn't realize how old this question was when I answered. I guess you made your decision, I hope it's worked out well for you.
I see you already made a descion but I wanted to just add something,What ever you have decided you have to do it for yourself. Jesus is the truth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGhQgCEerKUalso God loves all of us no matter who we are or what we believe in, he loves us even if we don't love him or turn away from him. If you can you should try and see the film Furious Love and you will learn what God really wants from us that so many churches fail to do and forget what it really means to love.
Whether you are Christian or Atheist, believe in God or not you are still you, you make the same choices and have basically the same routine you always had. So if you go to heaven or hell (good strip club names) it doesn't matter what you are or who you are and what brand you've put on yourself, in the end it's what you do.
So I don't see the difference between any religion and I get confused when people fight over their religion or God or some other forsaken subject.
So please, you are not going to become a christian because someone else allowed you to, you are going to become one by your own accord.
What do you mean 'allowed' me to? o.O
I'm making the decision, no one else. So I don't understand that part. XD
And, well, the people I've talked to about Christianity say that even if you're an awesome person, if you don't eventually accept Jesus into your life, etc, you go to Hell regardless.
Which, if this is true, makes sense. Turning your back on your own Creator would be a pretty dippy thing to do, seems like. D:
I mean allowed you to by you have to go to the church to become one.
Don't get me wrong I am a Greek Orthodox Christian, I do believe in Jesus, I don't believe you need a pastors help to do these things.
Oh, I understand.
And, I think I would go to Church because I wanted to.
I went the past couple of weeks to feel things out, and it was surprisingly nice. =O
It wasn't all "DAMNATION DAMNATION DAMNATION! YOU'RE A SINNER REPENT HISSS" Like I've seen in other places, or on tv, or heard about from anti-church people. xD
So that was a nice surprise. I liked it.
I think I might need a pastor's help, actually. lol.
At least in when it comes to gathering knowledge for myself, if that makes sense.
It makes total sense!
C:
Thank you very much for answering!
Have a nice dayy~
You too!
Update: Okie dokies! xD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdCA5xAsw8ISo, I have officially made up my mind on this issue.
Thank you to everyone who has answered, and commented, and helped me on my journey. xD
Could you finally choose between The Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Invisible Pink Unicorn and Hank?
All three are top!
Most people believe in Hank: Read link and see the movie:
I choose the Flying Spaghetti Monster
My His Noodly Appendage Touch You,
RAmen
Wow, satire.
Incredibly convincing, that.
UNICORNS ARE REAL!
Not as real as the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you heretic, you pagan!:@
"I am NOT looking for answers that are tied up in emotions. Decisions based on your emotions are rarely well thought out."
I think peoples' decisions to be religious are based mainly on emotion. Belief is about what you feel is right, after all. And many bible stories simply aren't logical- Adam and Eve for example. When it comes down to it, a belief in God is based on a gut feeling- people will tell you they just "know" he's there.
I am Agnostic because I can admit I just don't know, no one does- not the pope, not the world's greatest scientists. However, you should follow the path that feels right to you.
xD
By that I meant things like
"My daddy was a Christian, and he drank every day and divorced my mother, so I'm an Atheist now, because Christianity is evil and I hate it."
or
"The guy who ran over my dog was an Atheist, and didn't even feel sorry about it. Atheists are evil, so I'm a Christian now."
thanks for the input, though. owo
it made sense. C:
Most of us are convinced there isn't any heaven, hell, or anything like that. No one can prove what lies beyond, of course, so there's no point asking people about that. But no one can prove any of that exists, either, can they?
It's comforting to believe that someone is looking out for us, but most people in modern times realize we have to depend on each other, friends and family, not mythical powers 'out there.'
That's true.
But so far I haven't seen any clear reasons why anyone is an Atheist, other than that they just don't feel like God is worth believing in. And that's not much of a reason at all.
I watched a few videos of 'experiments' done by 'experts' to see if it was possible for God to exist, but they seemed to have been created by closed-minded individuals who had already decided that he didn't, and simply produced self-indulgent results.
Which is sort of confusing. D=
What really gets to me is that, from what I've read and heard, most Atheists who set out to disprove Christianity, and spend time gathering information and posing hard questions, generally wind up becoming Christians.
Which makes me think that there really is something to Christianity if you're willing to look deep enough.
And I said the same thing to the local pastor, about friends and family and out there, and he said that God wasn't some far off thing hanging out in space. That he's here.
Most of us don't feel the need to disprove anything. When they say the world was created in 4000 BC, well...most of us don't fight battles with people who won't listen to scientific evidence.
MOst of us just ignore them and smile.
Who says the world was created in 4000 BC? o.o
What martyfellow is referring to are the beliefs of young earth creationists.
That being, a group of bible literalists that maintain that the earth is about 6000 years old.
They justify this belief for themselves by using the temporal references displayed in the bible.
From Adam to Abraham...2000 years approx.
From Abraham to Christ...2000 years approx.
From Christ until now...2000 years approx.
(...continued)
The other argument used comes directly out of interpretation of the bible passages.
This relates to passages such as 2 Peter chapter 3 verse 8 and Psalm chapter 90 verse 4 when the reader is told that:
"A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like one day to God"
It is with this passage coupled with the 6 day creation story of genesis that the idea is maintained that it is in the seventh millennium (this one) that Christians will reign as Christ returns.
So, any day now haha
The fundie Christians maintain that; if yu take the book of Genesis literally and all up all the life spans, you come out to that date.
exactly... :)
No MH?